The major issue is that parties aren't using Short Rests....which WotC seems to realize as they swapped a lot of short rest racial abilities for PB use per day abilities.
Also it shows in the number of people who view monk as "weak" as they are likely dealing with 1-2 big fights between long rests which gives the advantage to paladin, ranger, and every caster.
Im not quite following why this shows parties are not using Short Rests. That they get long rests in relatively quick succession doesn't stop them from spamming short rests for fighters, monks, warlocks, etc. My experience is that they will gladly do so to keep a team mate from being a relatively underpowered meat shield with just a cantrip or normal attack action.
It actually still benefits monks, since that is only 1 or 2 major fights in which to manage their resources rather than 6-8 encounters with short rests only being a risky possibility in dungeons. Full casters and half casters would still hold an advantage in those encounters by just having more resources and resource efficiency per day.
Not if there are no short rests at all ... Which is the experience and that's why they are changing the racial features. Also yes 1-2 encounters only per day will absolutely favor spellcasters as you are likely looking at 6-10 total rounds which means you can use leveled spells every turn.
So monks suffer more as they require ki for absolutely everything worthwhile offensively and only have a small pool to work with.
If monks only spent about 1ki per turn then it would be fine but the reality is if you are only spending one per turn (or less) you will fall behind...
I think they need a secondary pool for subclass features or at the very least a higher pool amount of ki as the current system isn't very versatile to deal with different encounter volumes
That all depends on the levels. For a full caster to spend a spell slot each round of combat for 9 rounds, they have to be at least level 5 and cannot spend any spell slots on utility outside of combat.
The monk is resource starved at level 5, and will only have ki for 5/9ths of those encounters, unless they get a single short rest.
One short rest still doesn't seem unheard of even with only 2 major encounters a day.
Now I think a bigger issue is that monks aren't getting equivalent utility to leveled spells from their ki, and that they are still dependent on short rests, so they are weaker than most classes just straight up. A secondary class for subfeatures especially makes sense, because they can drain an entire ki pool in one or two rounds.
But every class benefits when the number of encounters (and resource management) is cut down. Even for a bad monk subclass like 4 elements, one of their spell like abilities packs a lot more punch ounce for ounce over the course of 2 encounters than it would over the course of 8, where short rests are never guaranteed.
The major issue is that parties aren't using Short Rests....which WotC seems to realize as they swapped a lot of short rest racial abilities for PB use per day abilities.
Also it shows in the number of people who view monk as "weak" as they are likely dealing with 1-2 big fights between long rests which gives the advantage to paladin, ranger, and every caster.
Im not quite following why this shows parties are not using Short Rests. That they get long rests in relatively quick succession doesn't stop them from spamming short rests for fighters, monks, warlocks, etc. My experience is that they will gladly do so to keep a team mate from being a relatively underpowered meat shield with just a cantrip or normal attack action.
It actually still benefits monks, since that is only 1 or 2 major fights in which to manage their resources rather than 6-8 encounters with short rests only being a risky possibility in dungeons. Full casters and half casters would still hold an advantage in those encounters by just having more resources and resource efficiency per day.
Not if there are no short rests at all ... Which is the experience and that's why they are changing the racial features. Also yes 1-2 encounters only per day will absolutely favor spellcasters as you are likely looking at 6-10 total rounds which means you can use leveled spells every turn.
So monks suffer more as they require ki for absolutely everything worthwhile offensively and only have a small pool to work with.
If monks only spent about 1ki per turn then it would be fine but the reality is if you are only spending one per turn (or less) you will fall behind...
I think they need a secondary pool for subclass features or at the very least a higher pool amount of ki as the current system isn't very versatile to deal with different encounter volumes
That all depends on the levels. For a full caster to spend a spell slot each round of combat for 9 rounds, they have to be at least level 5 and cannot spend any spell slots on utility outside of combat.
The monk is resource starved at level 5, and will only have ki for 5/9ths of those encounters, unless they get a single short rest.
One short rest still doesn't seem unheard of even with only 2 major encounters a day.
Now I think a bigger issue is that monks aren't getting equivalent utility to leveled spells from their ki, and that they are still dependent on short rests, so they are weaker than most classes just straight up. A secondary class for subfeatures especially makes sense, because they can drain an entire ki pool in one or two rounds.
But every class benefits when the number of encounters (and resource management) is cut down. Even for a bad monk subclass like 4 elements, one of their spell like abilities packs a lot more punch ounce for ounce over the course of 2 encounters than it would over the course of 8, where short rests are never guaranteed.
Yeah thats fair...and these casters are getting resources outside of spell slots too (Druid gets Wild shape, Wizards get rituals, Clerics get Channel Divinity, etc...) so they have resources outside of just slots to utilize as well. They are getting secondary resources back on a short rest or via time use (rituals) ON TOP of their slots.
Also cantrips can provide a lot of utility themselves and are at will so there is more value added.
Good points made though and I do think the secondary pool would help a lot.
Which is the experience and that's why they are changing the racial features.
There hasn't exactly been a trend of this yet; the only race they've really done is Dragonborn, but that's because a single use per short rest meant that players almost never used their breath weapons in practice because you wouldn't want to waste it. While the change to proficiency uses per long rest is nice, they coupled it with fewer dice so now I use it all the time and most of those times I roll badly and it sucks anyway. 😝
This doesn't really apply all that much to the Monk though, as it doesn't take long for you to have a good amount of Ki to work with; five or six doesn't sound like a lot but it moves the equation from "do I use any abilities at all?" to "how many Ki points do I burn per turn?"
I don't think a second resource is necessary; a more obvious change might be to move the captstone ability to something sooner, as it's a bit underwhelming as a level 20 ability. Maybe bring a lesser version in earlier, say 4th level, gaining the ability to meditate for a short time (10 minutes?) to recover Ki points until they number an amount equal to your proficiency bonus? Part of the capstone could then be to do this automatically whenever you roll initiative. That should easily cover any cases where you've burned all your Ki, but without allowing so much recovery you basically never have to worry.
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Which is the experience and that's why they are changing the racial features.
There hasn't exactly been a trend of this yet; the only race they've really done is Dragonborn, but that's because a single use per short rest meant that players almost never used their breath weapons in practice because you wouldn't want to waste it. While the change to proficiency uses per long rest is nice, they coupled it with fewer dice so now I use it all the time and most of those times I roll badly and it sucks anyway. 😝
This doesn't really apply all that much to the Monk though, as it doesn't take long for you to have a good amount of Ki to work with; five or six doesn't sound like a lot but it moves the equation from "do I use any abilities at all?" to "how many Ki points do I burn per turn?"
I don't think a second resource is necessary; a more obvious change might be to move the captstone ability to something sooner, as it's a bit underwhelming as a level 20 ability. Maybe bring a lesser version in earlier, say 4th level, gaining the ability to meditate for a short time (10 minutes?) to recover Ki points until they number an amount equal to your proficiency bonus? Part of the capstone could then be to do this automatically whenever you roll initiative. That should easily cover any cases where you've burned all your Ki, but without allowing so much recovery you basically never have to worry.
All of the current "per short rest" racial abilities are now PB per long rest in the Monsters of the Multiverse book... It's what they are migrating to.
5 is low imo... Seeing as how you can burn almost that many in a single turn.
Even if you just use FoB that's only 5 rounds you get it per short rest which should be about 6-10 rounds total per the suggested guidelines.
And that's just if you use FoB only... Throw a stun in there and it's only 4 rounds....2 stuns? Only 3 turns.
I don't think a second resource is necessary; a more obvious change might be to move the captstone ability to something sooner, as it's a bit underwhelming as a level 20 ability. Maybe bring a lesser version in earlier, say 4th level, gaining the ability to meditate for a short time (10 minutes?) to recover Ki points until they number an amount equal to your proficiency bonus? Part of the capstone could then be to do this automatically whenever you roll initiative. That should easily cover any cases where you've burned all your Ki, but without allowing so much recovery you basically never have to worry.
I completely agree that these kinds of features should be available much much earlier. Nobody is going to lose their mind over getting such a feature at high level but everyone will like being able to use their other features at least once every combat when resources like KI points are still few. I disagree with it just being a lesser version though. What you described is much closer to a modified version of the short rest meditation we already got instead of a modified version of the capstone. Considering the capstone feature only gives back 4 measly KI points, which lasts at best half of a combat if we only use Patient Defense, Step of the Wind or Flurry of Blows without any subclass abilities or Stunning Strike or such, I don't think it needs to get toned down at all. Maybe make it once per long rest or PB times per long rest or something like that to prevent having KI always ready but I'm not even sure it'd be that necessary.
That's basically like making the pool larger so I would be ok with that too.
Personally something I'd really like to see is the ability to customize what kind of martial artist you are. Basically, not necessarily restrict Monk to a dexterity class, but rather give the choice to focus on being either a strength based monk (grapples, amazing feats of strength), dexterity (much like now), or constitution (uncanny ability to take punishment or purify your own body. Think like those monks who strengthen their body against physical abuse.), and some abilities you get later depend on your choice. I think that'd give it a really unique flavor among the martial classes that's also in line with the concept.
Other than that, I'd really like to see more reactionary actions. When I think of monks or martial artists, I think of these amazing feats of razor sharp reaction like intercepting strikes, deflects, kick up's from being knocked down etc.
The main thing people complain about is its damage output later on, so I think they should consider some sort of upper level mechanic that allows for more hits or even empowered hits. Adjusting the progression of martial arts damage is another alternative, though I personally think monks should be the masters of hitting a bunch.
It'll probably be a rough change, but I do think Stunning Strike may need to be redesigned. It's not that it's too good imo, but I think the malleability and early accessibility of the move has made it a bit too central to the class' entire identity in parties. I also suspect it's a part of why WotC has seemed so hesitant to give monk more varied damage options in subclasses (though again that's just me.). It really depends on how the rest of its core abilities are redone but I've gotten the impression after all these years that Stunning Strike is both a blessing and a bit of a curse in some ways for the class.
Which is the experience and that's why they are changing the racial features.
There hasn't exactly been a trend of this yet; the only race they've really done is Dragonborn, but that's because a single use per short rest meant that players almost never used their breath weapons in practice because you wouldn't want to waste it. While the change to proficiency uses per long rest is nice, they coupled it with fewer dice so now I use it all the time and most of those times I roll badly and it sucks anyway. 😝
This doesn't really apply all that much to the Monk though, as it doesn't take long for you to have a good amount of Ki to work with; five or six doesn't sound like a lot but it moves the equation from "do I use any abilities at all?" to "how many Ki points do I burn per turn?"
I don't think a second resource is necessary; a more obvious change might be to move the captstone ability to something sooner, as it's a bit underwhelming as a level 20 ability. Maybe bring a lesser version in earlier, say 4th level, gaining the ability to meditate for a short time (10 minutes?) to recover Ki points until they number an amount equal to your proficiency bonus? Part of the capstone could then be to do this automatically whenever you roll initiative. That should easily cover any cases where you've burned all your Ki, but without allowing so much recovery you basically never have to worry.
One thing I’ve seen talked about on various YouTube channels is a feature similar to what you say for meditating to regain Ki. Or when using FoB, if you roll a natural 20 you regain 1 Ki (so basically FoB was free that turn). I could also see maybe if you score a critical hit (maybe FoB or unarmed strike only) you regain Ki equal to half the damage you do with that strike, or equal to PB, up to your Ki max. Or you can go over your Ki max but you lose it at the start of your next turn so you can use that extra Ki for a reaction deflect missiles or something.
I completely agree that these kinds of features should be available much much earlier. Nobody is going to lose their mind over getting such a feature at high level but everyone will like being able to use their other features at least once every combat when resources like KI points are still few. I disagree with it just being a lesser version though. What you described is much closer to a modified version of the short rest meditation we already got instead of a modified version of the capstone. Considering the capstone feature only gives back 4 measly KI points, which lasts at most half of a long combat (10 rounds) if we only use Patient Defense, Step of the Wind or Flurry of Blows without any subclass abilities or Stunning Strike or such, I don't think it needs to get toned down at all. Maybe make it once per long rest or PB times per long rest or something like that to prevent having KI always ready but I'm not even sure it'd be that necessary.
PB times per long rest would work! Should give you more than enough to plug any gaps in non-standard adventuring days, or when the toughest fights come up early and you're in danger of running on fumes if you need to fight again soon.
Personally something I'd really like to see is the ability to customize what kind of martial artist you are. Basically, not necessarily restrict Monk to a dexterity class, but rather give the choice to focus on being either a strength based monk (grapples, amazing feats of strength), dexterity (much like now), or constitution (uncanny ability to take punishment or purify your own body. Think like those monks who strengthen their body against physical abuse.), and some abilities you get later depend on your choice. I think that'd give it a really unique flavor among the martial classes that's also in line with the concept.
While something like this would be good, and others have suggested stances that could be changed during combat for similar effects, it may err more towards total redesign territory and I'm not sure we're likely to get anything like that when 5.5e drops, that's more for a sixth edition I'd think. I'd love that kind of toolkit plus changing stances, but I think it'll be beyond the scope of 5.5e.
I do think we should be able to use STR in place of DEX if we want to though, as that'd make a bunch more builds viable, I mentioned on the first page at least being able to use STR instead of DEX for Unarmored Defence, so a STR focused build would be possible.
Other than that, I'd really like to see more reactionary actions. When I think of monks or martial artists, I think of these amazing feats of razor sharp reaction like intercepting strikes, deflects, kick up's from being knocked down etc.
Also on the first page I suggested a reaction attack when an enemy misses (basically Riposte for 1 Ki) at a higher level, I think I said 13th. The idea for that is so that our attacks keep scaling without just getting more normal ones, as we could then have five pretty reliably with Flurry of Blows, or three even while using Patient Defence etc. (which only makes it more likely the enemy will miss to give you that third).
The main thing people complain about is its damage output later on, so I think they should consider some sort of upper level mechanic that allows for more hits or even empowered hits. Adjusting the progression of martial arts damage is another alternative, though I personally think monks should be the masters of hitting a bunch.
Thanks to Tasha's we now have Focused Aim which is actually a big deal; +2-6 onto a missed attack for only 1-3 Ki is great, as you can economically turn near misses into hits. One of the reasons why Monk damage is actually not as bad as people keep claiming is because we have generally more attacks, which means less damage lost if we miss, but with Focused Aim we can also just choose not to miss either, whereas other classes a miss can mean losing 50% of your damage, or 100% from two, whereas we can still have another one or two chances left.
I definitely think we could do with some more effects to put onto our attacks though, as I don't think scaling our damage to compete more with Fighter is a good fix for the class; we need more fun shenanigans that debuff an enemy or help the party.
Others have suggested it, but it probably makes sense to roll the Open Hand Technique into the main Monk class, and give Open Hand something new for their 3rd level, as some of those abilities just seem too obviously like things that should be in the basic Monk toolkit.
It'll probably be a rough change, but I do think Stunning Strike may need to be redesigned. It's not that it's too good imo, but I think the malleability and early accessibility of the move has made it a bit too central to the class' entire identity in parties. I also suspect it's a part of why WotC has seemed so hesitant to give monk more varied damage options in subclasses (though again that's just me.). It really depends on how the rest of its core abilities are redone but I've gotten the impression after all these years that Stunning Strike is both a blessing and a bit of a curse in some ways for the class.
I do agree it should probably start out as something weaker, and maybe get the full stun later on. For example:
Dazing Strike
Starting at 5th level you can interfere with the flow of Ki in an opponent's body. When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 Ki point to impose one of the following effects upon your target until the end of its next turn:
Cumulative -1 penalty to AC and attack rolls, to a maximum of -5.
No resistance to bludgeoning, piercing or slashing damage.
Movement speed is halved.
May need a better name, but the idea is that you can stack reliable penalties on the target depending upon how much Ki you're willing to spend and what you need. Then later on, maybe 11th level, you'd get proper Stunning Strike as it is now as an alternative (can't use both on a single attack) so you have a choice of a weaker but reliable automatic effect, vs. a gamble on a much stronger penalty.
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It all seems like solid changes! I do enjoy the class a lot but the main general concept I personally want more leaned into is the versatility of the class both mechanically and in concept, so whether its these ideas or other ideas I hope thats the direction they go in. Whatever the case though I'm really excited to see what happens!
Ok, so going through this thread I see a bunch of good ideas and it makes me excited for what's to come in 2024. I really, really hope WotC does not let us down. And in that excitement I decided to rewrite the Monk class using some of the ideas mentioned in the thread just for poops and giggles. And to see what people think. Remember, the changes coming in 2024 need to be backwards compatible so this is not an extensive rewrite, but more of a Tasha's-esque "optional features" or "replacement features". So here we go: (sorry it's long).
Monk optional features/replacement features: sorry for some formatting issues, it didn't copy/paste right from my word document. will edit best I can
Beginning at 1st level, while you are wearing no armor and not wielding a shield, you choose a defensive stance technique for calculating your AC.
Strength of theMountain Stance: your AC equals 10 + your Strength modifier + your Wisdom modifier
Swift Wind Stance: your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifier
You can only have one defensive stance active, and when you gain a level, in this class, you can change the defensive stance you use.
Martial Arts: same as PHB with the following change and addition:
The second benefit now reads:
You can roll a d6 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, d8 at 5 level, d10 at 11 level, d12 at 17
New fourth benefit to Martial Arts:
When you take the Attack action while wielding a monk weapon that has the light property in one hand, you can use your Martial Arts bonus action attack to make an attack with a different light monk weapon you’re holding in the other hand, instead of an unarmed strike.
2 Level:
Ki: same as PHB with the following addition:
Breath of the Wind: At the start of your turn, you focus on your breathing and revitalize your ki. During this time you can take no Actions, or Bonus Actions and your speed is reduced to 0. At the end of your turn you regain ki points equal to your Proficiency bonus. You can use this feature once per long rest.
Flurry of Blows:
Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action. Whenever you hit a creature with one of the attacks granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target:
It must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone.
It must make a Strength saving throw. If it fails, you can push it up to 15 feet away from you.
It can’t take reactions until the end of your next turn.
Once on your turn, when you roll a critical hit with one of your Flurry of Blows unarmed strikes you can tap into the ki of the target and draw it into you. You regain 1 ki point.
Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, Unarmored Movement, Monastic Traditions, Deflect Missiles: same as PHB
3 Level:
Centered Mind: new feature
Beginning at 3 level, you can tap into your ki to focus it at a task. As a Bonus action you choose one of the following:
you gain proficiency in one skill of your choice, or
choose one skill in which you are already proficient. You gain expertise with that skill, which means your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make with it. The skill you choose must be one that isn’t already benefiting from a feature, such as Expertise, that doubles your proficiency bonus.
This feature lasts for 1 minute and you can use this feature a number of times equal to your Proficiency Bonus edit: per long rest.
4 Level:
Ability Score Improvement:
When you reach 4 level, and again at 8, 10, 12, 16, and 19 level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
Using the optional feats rule, you can forgo taking this feature to take a feat of your choice instead.
Slow Fall and Extra Attack: same as PHB
Stunning Strike:
Starting at 5 level, you can interfere with the flow of ki in an opponent’s body. When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a stunning strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or become dazed. On a failed save the target has a -2 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks and Dexterity saving throws and it can’t take reactions until the end of your next turn.
Beginning at 9 level, on a failed Constitution saving throw the target is stunned until the end of your next turn, edit: and at 17th level every time you make a critical hit the enemy is automatically stunned until the end of your next turn.
Ki Empowered Strikes, Unarmored Movement, Evasion: same as PHB
7 Level:
Stillness of Mind
Starting at 7 level you have advantage on saving throws against being charmed or frightened. This applies to initial saves as well as ongoing saving throws. If you become aware that you are charmed or frightened you can use your action to end one of these effects on yourself.
Unarmored movement Improvement, Purity of Body, Unarmored movement, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Diamond Soul, Timeless Body, Empty Body: same as PHB.
20 Level: Perfect Self
At 20 level, when you roll for initiative you regain 6 ki points. When you use your Flurry of Blows feature it costs no ki and you can make three unarmed strikes as a bonus action.
Edit: If WotC did something like this would it be enough to boost the monk? Not enough? I’m not expecting WotC to do much more than this in 2024, a completely new edition would be where a full revamp of the class would be. So any thoughts are welcome. And again, this was just for fun and not what I think a monk should be, just something I think could be done while keeping backwards compatibility. So I won’t be offended if you think it’s complete garbage lol.
Sorry to insist, but I find he still lacks a way to disengage from the enemy without having to use a ki power every time. One solution might be:
Once per turn, when you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space, provided the target is no more than one size larger than you.
For flurry of blows I find it interreante to integrate the techniques of the open hand, but I would like that there was also more choice to customize the monk, as the fighting styles of the fighter. I find that the monk is very suitable to give malus to enemies through saving throws on determiante characteristics, but in my opinion we should not dwell only on dexterity, strength and constitution.
Flurry of Blows:
You learn three martial arts techniques of your choice. Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action. Whenever you hit a creature with one of the attacks granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target:
It must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone.
It must make a Strength saving throw. If it fails, you can push it up to 15 feet away from you.
It can’t take reactions until the end of your next turn.
It must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it is frightened of you until the end of your next turn.
It must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be poisoned until the end of your next turn.
It must succeed on a Charisma saving throw or have the movement becomes 0, and it can't benefit from any bonus to its speed until the end of your next turn.
It must make a Intelligence saving throw. If it fails, it can’t take a reaction until the end of its next turn. Moreover, on its next turn, it must choose whether it gets a move, an action, or a bonus action; it gets only one of the three.
Choose another creature within 5 feet of the original target within your reach. If the original attack roll would hit the second creature, it takes the same damage dealt by the original target.
.....
Once on your turn, when you roll a critical hit with one of your Flurry of Blows unarmed strikes you can tap into the ki of the target and draw it into you. You regain 1 ki point.
I find the evolution of the stunning strike interesting, but it could be taken further. I've always found the monk's crit to be disappointing. So why not stun the enemy every time you do critical without using ki powers?
Stunning Strike:
Starting at 5 level, you can interfere with the flow of ki in an opponent’s body. When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a stunning strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or become dazed. On a failed save the target has a -2 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks and Dexterity saving throws and it can’t take reactions until the end of your next turn.
Beginning at 9 level, on a failed Constitution saving throw the target is stunned until the end of your next turn, and at 17th level every time you make a critical hit the enemy is automatically stunned until the end of your next turn.
I always found it outrageous that simple range weapons weren't monk weapons. Heck, darts are perfect weapons for a monk. This limitation on monk weapons I find extremely boring. That's why they created that ability called "dedicated weapon"... but that doesn't work with darts.
Beginning at 1st level, while you are wearing no armor and not wielding a shield, you choose a defensive stance for calculating your AC.
Mountain Stance: your AC equals 10 + your Strength modifier + your Wisdom modifier
Wind Stance: your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifier
You can only have one defensive stance active, and when you gain a level, in this class, you can change the defensive stance you use.
Sorry but this really isn't what was meant with stances at all. The way this plays out is like having no stances since nobody would ever switch between them after character creation. You just took the term stances and applied it to something else lol
The idea doesn't sound bad, but the name would have to be changed.
A name like "armor of muscles" and "smoky defense" would be better.
It would also be to specify that the monk must choose one of the two styles and that one cannot be changed.
There would be other names like: "constitution of the ox" and "constitution of the leopard".
"the mountain" and "the river."
etc...
What I mean is that the name is not important at the moment, as opposed to the game mechanics.
Beginning at 1st level, while you are wearing no armor and not wielding a shield, you choose a defensive stance for calculating your AC.
Mountain Stance: your AC equals 10 + your Strength modifier + your Wisdom modifier
Wind Stance: your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifier
You can only have one defensive stance active, and when you gain a level, in this class, you can change the defensive stance you use.
Sorry but this really isn't what was meant with stances at all. The way this plays out is like having no stances since nobody would ever switch between them after character creation. You just took the term stances and applied it to something else lol
You are quite right. This was not an attempt to incorporate “stances” as discussed in this thread. But I couldn’t think of a better term to use while describing a defensive ability for calculating AC. The name can be changed, actually the name is irrelevant, it’s about giving options so a player can go DEX build or STR build. I only included the chance to switch if a player wanted to go a different route, maybe due to getting a magic item that improved either STR or DEX (gauntlets of ogre power, for example)
Sorry to insist, but I find he still lacks a way to disengage from the enemy without having to use a ki power every time. One solution might be:
Once per turn, when you hit a creature with an attack that deals bludgeoning damage, you can move it 5 feet to an unoccupied space, provided the target is no more than one size larger than you.
For flurry of blows I find it interreante to integrate the techniques of the open hand, but I would like that there was also more choice to customize the monk, as the fighting styles of the fighter. I find that the monk is very suitable to give malus to enemies through saving throws on determiante characteristics, but in my opinion we should not dwell only on dexterity, strength and constitution.
Flurry of Blows:
You learn three martial arts techniques of your choice. Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action. Whenever you hit a creature with one of the attacks granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target:
It must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone.
It must make a Strength saving throw. If it fails, you can push it up to 15 feet away from you.
It can’t take reactions until the end of your next turn.
It must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it is frightened of you until the end of your next turn.
It must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be poisoned until the end of your next turn.
It must succeed on a Charisma saving throw or have the movement becomes 0, and it can't benefit from any bonus to its speed until the end of your next turn.
It must make a Intelligence saving throw. If it fails, it can’t take a reaction until the end of its next turn. Moreover, on its next turn, it must choose whether it gets a move, an action, or a bonus action; it gets only one of the three.
Choose another creature within 5 feet of the original target within your reach. If the original attack roll would hit the second creature, it takes the same damage dealt by the original target.
.....
Once on your turn, when you roll a critical hit with one of your Flurry of Blows unarmed strikes you can tap into the ki of the target and draw it into you. You regain 1 ki point.
I find the evolution of the stunning strike interesting, but it could be taken further. I've always found the monk's crit to be disappointing. So why not stun the enemy every time you do critical without using ki powers?
Stunning Strike:
Starting at 5 level, you can interfere with the flow of ki in an opponent’s body. When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a stunning strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or become dazed. On a failed save the target has a -2 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks and Dexterity saving throws and it can’t take reactions until the end of your next turn.
Beginning at 9 level, on a failed Constitution saving throw the target is stunned until the end of your next turn, and at 17th level every time you make a critical hit the enemy is automatically stunned until the end of your next turn.
I always found it outrageous that simple range weapons weren't monk weapons. Heck, darts are perfect weapons for a monk. This limitation on monk weapons I find extremely boring. That's why they created that ability called "dedicated weapon"... but that doesn't work with darts.
I like your ideas. I didn't want to add too much to Flurry of Blows, I took it away from Way of the Open Hand so they need something in return, so those ideas you have could be incorporated into the subclass. Actually, the options you listed could probably be broken up between certain subclasses of monk.
A stun on a crit for no ki at 17th level is another idea I like so I may add it above.
I just didn't want to go too far, as I feel 2024 will just be minor adjustments and not an extensive rewrite. Similar to what they did for Rangers, possibly.
A stun on a crit for no ki at 17th level is another idea I like so I may add it above.
I dunno about a full stun on a critical; that would mean that even legendary creatures couldn't resist it unless they're fully immune, and Stunning Strike is already a good way to force legendaries to burn though their resistances. What about something like "on a critical hit you can use any Open Hand Technique or inflict a Stunning Strike at no Ki cost"? That way you still have a chance to inflict it, or you either get an extra Open Hand Technique, or double it up (if the crit was on the Flurry of Blows)?
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A stun on a crit for no ki at 17th level is another idea I like so I may add it above.
I dunno about a full stun on a critical; that would mean that even legendary creatures couldn't resist it unless they're fully immune, and Stunning Strike is already a good way to force legendaries to burn though their resistances. What about something like "on a critical hit you can use any Open Hand Technique or inflict a Stunning Strike at no Ki cost"? That way you still have a chance to inflict it, or you either get an extra Open Hand Technique, or double it up (if the crit was on the Flurry of Blows)?
I can see your point. Maybe it could be as you suggested with a crit make a stunning strike without Ki cost. Edit: At the same time, it requires a crit and is 17th level, so maybe it isn't too much after all? I don't know. You only have 5% chance of getting it per attack roll, not sure what that works out to, mathematically, over all of your attacks in one turn.
That all depends on the levels. For a full caster to spend a spell slot each round of combat for 9 rounds, they have to be at least level 5 and cannot spend any spell slots on utility outside of combat.
The monk is resource starved at level 5, and will only have ki for 5/9ths of those encounters, unless they get a single short rest.
One short rest still doesn't seem unheard of even with only 2 major encounters a day.
Now I think a bigger issue is that monks aren't getting equivalent utility to leveled spells from their ki, and that they are still dependent on short rests, so they are weaker than most classes just straight up. A secondary class for subfeatures especially makes sense, because they can drain an entire ki pool in one or two rounds.
But every class benefits when the number of encounters (and resource management) is cut down. Even for a bad monk subclass like 4 elements, one of their spell like abilities packs a lot more punch ounce for ounce over the course of 2 encounters than it would over the course of 8, where short rests are never guaranteed.
Yeah thats fair...and these casters are getting resources outside of spell slots too (Druid gets Wild shape, Wizards get rituals, Clerics get Channel Divinity, etc...) so they have resources outside of just slots to utilize as well. They are getting secondary resources back on a short rest or via time use (rituals) ON TOP of their slots.
Also cantrips can provide a lot of utility themselves and are at will so there is more value added.
Good points made though and I do think the secondary pool would help a lot.
There hasn't exactly been a trend of this yet; the only race they've really done is Dragonborn, but that's because a single use per short rest meant that players almost never used their breath weapons in practice because you wouldn't want to waste it. While the change to proficiency uses per long rest is nice, they coupled it with fewer dice so now I use it all the time and most of those times I roll badly and it sucks anyway. 😝
This doesn't really apply all that much to the Monk though, as it doesn't take long for you to have a good amount of Ki to work with; five or six doesn't sound like a lot but it moves the equation from "do I use any abilities at all?" to "how many Ki points do I burn per turn?"
I don't think a second resource is necessary; a more obvious change might be to move the captstone ability to something sooner, as it's a bit underwhelming as a level 20 ability. Maybe bring a lesser version in earlier, say 4th level, gaining the ability to meditate for a short time (10 minutes?) to recover Ki points until they number an amount equal to your proficiency bonus? Part of the capstone could then be to do this automatically whenever you roll initiative. That should easily cover any cases where you've burned all your Ki, but without allowing so much recovery you basically never have to worry.
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All of the current "per short rest" racial abilities are now PB per long rest in the Monsters of the Multiverse book... It's what they are migrating to.
5 is low imo... Seeing as how you can burn almost that many in a single turn.
Even if you just use FoB that's only 5 rounds you get it per short rest which should be about 6-10 rounds total per the suggested guidelines.
And that's just if you use FoB only... Throw a stun in there and it's only 4 rounds....2 stuns? Only 3 turns.
It's not great imo
That's basically like making the pool larger so I would be ok with that too.
Personally something I'd really like to see is the ability to customize what kind of martial artist you are. Basically, not necessarily restrict Monk to a dexterity class, but rather give the choice to focus on being either a strength based monk (grapples, amazing feats of strength), dexterity (much like now), or constitution (uncanny ability to take punishment or purify your own body. Think like those monks who strengthen their body against physical abuse.), and some abilities you get later depend on your choice. I think that'd give it a really unique flavor among the martial classes that's also in line with the concept.
Other than that, I'd really like to see more reactionary actions. When I think of monks or martial artists, I think of these amazing feats of razor sharp reaction like intercepting strikes, deflects, kick up's from being knocked down etc.
The main thing people complain about is its damage output later on, so I think they should consider some sort of upper level mechanic that allows for more hits or even empowered hits. Adjusting the progression of martial arts damage is another alternative, though I personally think monks should be the masters of hitting a bunch.
It'll probably be a rough change, but I do think Stunning Strike may need to be redesigned. It's not that it's too good imo, but I think the malleability and early accessibility of the move has made it a bit too central to the class' entire identity in parties. I also suspect it's a part of why WotC has seemed so hesitant to give monk more varied damage options in subclasses (though again that's just me.). It really depends on how the rest of its core abilities are redone but I've gotten the impression after all these years that Stunning Strike is both a blessing and a bit of a curse in some ways for the class.
One thing I’ve seen talked about on various YouTube channels is a feature similar to what you say for meditating to regain Ki. Or when using FoB, if you roll a natural 20 you regain 1 Ki (so basically FoB was free that turn). I could also see maybe if you score a critical hit (maybe FoB or unarmed strike only) you regain Ki equal to half the damage you do with that strike, or equal to PB, up to your Ki max. Or you can go over your Ki max but you lose it at the start of your next turn so you can use that extra Ki for a reaction deflect missiles or something.
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PB times per long rest would work! Should give you more than enough to plug any gaps in non-standard adventuring days, or when the toughest fights come up early and you're in danger of running on fumes if you need to fight again soon.
While something like this would be good, and others have suggested stances that could be changed during combat for similar effects, it may err more towards total redesign territory and I'm not sure we're likely to get anything like that when 5.5e drops, that's more for a sixth edition I'd think. I'd love that kind of toolkit plus changing stances, but I think it'll be beyond the scope of 5.5e.
I do think we should be able to use STR in place of DEX if we want to though, as that'd make a bunch more builds viable, I mentioned on the first page at least being able to use STR instead of DEX for Unarmored Defence, so a STR focused build would be possible.
Also on the first page I suggested a reaction attack when an enemy misses (basically Riposte for 1 Ki) at a higher level, I think I said 13th. The idea for that is so that our attacks keep scaling without just getting more normal ones, as we could then have five pretty reliably with Flurry of Blows, or three even while using Patient Defence etc. (which only makes it more likely the enemy will miss to give you that third).
Thanks to Tasha's we now have Focused Aim which is actually a big deal; +2-6 onto a missed attack for only 1-3 Ki is great, as you can economically turn near misses into hits. One of the reasons why Monk damage is actually not as bad as people keep claiming is because we have generally more attacks, which means less damage lost if we miss, but with Focused Aim we can also just choose not to miss either, whereas other classes a miss can mean losing 50% of your damage, or 100% from two, whereas we can still have another one or two chances left.
I definitely think we could do with some more effects to put onto our attacks though, as I don't think scaling our damage to compete more with Fighter is a good fix for the class; we need more fun shenanigans that debuff an enemy or help the party.
Others have suggested it, but it probably makes sense to roll the Open Hand Technique into the main Monk class, and give Open Hand something new for their 3rd level, as some of those abilities just seem too obviously like things that should be in the basic Monk toolkit.
I do agree it should probably start out as something weaker, and maybe get the full stun later on. For example:
May need a better name, but the idea is that you can stack reliable penalties on the target depending upon how much Ki you're willing to spend and what you need. Then later on, maybe 11th level, you'd get proper Stunning Strike as it is now as an alternative (can't use both on a single attack) so you have a choice of a weaker but reliable automatic effect, vs. a gamble on a much stronger penalty.
Something like that?
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It all seems like solid changes! I do enjoy the class a lot but the main general concept I personally want more leaned into is the versatility of the class both mechanically and in concept, so whether its these ideas or other ideas I hope thats the direction they go in. Whatever the case though I'm really excited to see what happens!
Ok, so going through this thread I see a bunch of good ideas and it makes me excited for what's to come in 2024. I really, really hope WotC does not let us down. And in that excitement I decided to rewrite the Monk class using some of the ideas mentioned in the thread just for poops and giggles. And to see what people think. Remember, the changes coming in 2024 need to be backwards compatible so this is not an extensive rewrite, but more of a Tasha's-esque "optional features" or "replacement features". So here we go: (sorry it's long).
Monk optional features/replacement features: sorry for some formatting issues, it didn't copy/paste right from my word document. will edit best I can
Proficiencies:
Skills: Choose three from Acrobatics, Athletics, History, insight, Medicine, Religion, Stealth
1st Level:
Unarmored Defense: Optional Feature
Beginning at 1st level, while you are wearing no armor and not wielding a shield, you choose a defensive
stancetechnique for calculating your AC.Strength of the Mountain
Stance: your AC equals 10 + your Strength modifier + your Wisdom modifierSwift Wind
Stance: your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifierYou can only have one defensive stance active, and when you gain a level, in this class, you can change the defensive stance you use.Martial Arts: same as PHB with the following change and addition:
The second benefit now reads:
New fourth benefit to Martial Arts:
2 Level:
Ki: same as PHB with the following addition:
Flurry of Blows:
Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action. Whenever you hit a creature with one of the attacks granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target:
Once on your turn, when you roll a critical hit with one of your Flurry of Blows unarmed strikes you can tap into the ki of the target and draw it into you. You regain 1 ki point.
Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, Unarmored Movement, Monastic Traditions, Deflect Missiles: same as PHB
3 Level:
Centered Mind: new feature
Beginning at 3 level, you can tap into your ki to focus it at a task. As a Bonus action you choose one of the following:
This feature lasts for 1 minute and you can use this feature a number of times equal to your Proficiency Bonus edit: per long rest.
4 Level:
Ability Score Improvement:
When you reach 4 level, and again at 8, 10, 12, 16, and 19 level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
Using the optional feats rule, you can forgo taking this feature to take a feat of your choice instead.
Slow Fall and Extra Attack: same as PHB
Stunning Strike:
Starting at 5 level, you can interfere with the flow of ki in an opponent’s body. When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a stunning strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or become dazed. On a failed save the target has a -2 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks and Dexterity saving throws and it can’t take reactions until the end of your next turn.
Beginning at 9 level, on a failed Constitution saving throw the target is stunned until the end of your next turn, edit: and at 17th level every time you make a critical hit the enemy is automatically stunned until the end of your next turn.
Ki Empowered Strikes, Unarmored Movement, Evasion: same as PHB
7 Level:
Stillness of Mind
Starting at 7 level you have advantage on saving throws against being charmed or frightened. This applies to initial saves as well as ongoing saving throws. If you become aware that you are charmed or frightened you can use your action to end one of these effects on yourself.
Unarmored movement Improvement, Purity of Body, Unarmored movement, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Diamond Soul, Timeless Body, Empty Body: same as PHB.
20 Level:
Perfect Self
At 20 level, when you roll for initiative you regain 6 ki points. When you use your Flurry of Blows feature it costs no ki and you can make three unarmed strikes as a bonus action.
Edit: If WotC did something like this would it be enough to boost the monk? Not enough? I’m not expecting WotC to do much more than this in 2024, a completely new edition would be where a full revamp of the class would be. So any thoughts are welcome.
And again, this was just for fun and not what I think a monk should be, just something I think could be done while keeping backwards compatibility. So I won’t be offended if you think it’s complete garbage lol.
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Sorry to insist, but I find he still lacks a way to disengage from the enemy without having to use a ki power every time. One solution might be:
For flurry of blows I find it interreante to integrate the techniques of the open hand, but I would like that there was also more choice to customize the monk, as the fighting styles of the fighter. I find that the monk is very suitable to give malus to enemies through saving throws on determiante characteristics, but in my opinion we should not dwell only on dexterity, strength and constitution.
Flurry of Blows:
You learn three martial arts techniques of your choice. Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action. Whenever you hit a creature with one of the attacks granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target:
Once on your turn, when you roll a critical hit with one of your Flurry of Blows unarmed strikes you can tap into the ki of the target and draw it into you. You regain 1 ki point.
I find the evolution of the stunning strike interesting, but it could be taken further. I've always found the monk's crit to be disappointing. So why not stun the enemy every time you do critical without using ki powers?
Stunning Strike:
Starting at 5 level, you can interfere with the flow of ki in an opponent’s body. When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a stunning strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or become dazed. On a failed save the target has a -2 penalty to attack rolls, ability checks and Dexterity saving throws and it can’t take reactions until the end of your next turn.
Beginning at 9 level, on a failed Constitution saving throw the target is stunned until the end of your next turn, and at 17th level every time you make a critical hit the enemy is automatically stunned until the end of your next turn.
I always found it outrageous that simple range weapons weren't monk weapons. Heck, darts are perfect weapons for a monk. This limitation on monk weapons I find extremely boring. That's why they created that ability called "dedicated weapon"... but that doesn't work with darts.
The idea doesn't sound bad, but the name would have to be changed.
A name like "armor of muscles" and "smoky defense" would be better.
It would also be to specify that the monk must choose one of the two styles and that one cannot be changed.
There would be other names like:
"constitution of the ox" and "constitution of the leopard".
"the mountain" and "the river."
etc...
What I mean is that the name is not important at the moment, as opposed to the game mechanics.
You are quite right. This was not an attempt to incorporate “stances” as discussed in this thread. But I couldn’t think of a better term to use while describing a defensive ability for calculating AC. The name can be changed, actually the name is irrelevant, it’s about giving options so a player can go DEX build or STR build. I only included the chance to switch if a player wanted to go a different route, maybe due to getting a magic item that improved either STR or DEX (gauntlets of ogre power, for example)
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I like your ideas. I didn't want to add too much to Flurry of Blows, I took it away from Way of the Open Hand so they need something in return, so those ideas you have could be incorporated into the subclass. Actually, the options you listed could probably be broken up between certain subclasses of monk.
A stun on a crit for no ki at 17th level is another idea I like so I may add it above.
I just didn't want to go too far, as I feel 2024 will just be minor adjustments and not an extensive rewrite. Similar to what they did for Rangers, possibly.
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This new Monk is so complicated. The base class is now approaching Warlock numbers of pages.
I like the idea of making AC based on your choice of STR or DEX, representing an identifiable school of fighting, like "Mountain Defense."
I dunno about a full stun on a critical; that would mean that even legendary creatures couldn't resist it unless they're fully immune, and Stunning Strike is already a good way to force legendaries to burn though their resistances. What about something like "on a critical hit you can use any Open Hand Technique or inflict a Stunning Strike at no Ki cost"? That way you still have a chance to inflict it, or you either get an extra Open Hand Technique, or double it up (if the crit was on the Flurry of Blows)?
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I can see your point. Maybe it could be as you suggested with a crit make a stunning strike without Ki cost. Edit: At the same time, it requires a crit and is 17th level, so maybe it isn't too much after all? I don't know. You only have 5% chance of getting it per attack roll, not sure what that works out to, mathematically, over all of your attacks in one turn.
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