I'm playing monk and my primal role a tank and single targets eliminations (for now at least). Recently the party gets 6th level and there is a question should I multiclass. Because of my tank role I'm considering a 3 lvl barbarian (Path of the wild heart).
On the one hand weapon mastery, advantage on dex saves and resist to almost all types of damage sound very good in other hands it's a three level which is a huge, besides weapon mastery I could get at lvl 8 from a feat, barb damage resistance do not cover all damage types (undeads are one of our enemies) and damage resistance monk will get itself on lvl 18 (which is far away but we plan play to lvl 20)
So does staying in one class is a good idea? Or multiclassing is must have for monks?
I recommend just one level in barbarian, as that gives you the best features of the dip.
Except the capstone and possibly a Boon. Since it is still arguable that you get it at straight 19th level or as long as your levels add up to 19. I think the latter is silly since, you could use the same argument for getting the capstone. Tells you what side of the fence I'm on.
I don't think anybody argues that you get it at level 19 like this. You do get at total level 20. Also, if you multiclass 4 levels in one class and 16 in another, you can get two epic boons.
I don't think anybody argues that you get it at level 19 like this. You do get at total level 20. Also, if you multiclass 4 levels in one class and 16 in another, you can get two epic boons.
I read that as 19th level in a single class to get an Epic Boon feat. Proficiency bonus is at character level, everything else I thought was tied to class level?
I don't think anybody argues that you get it at level 19 like this. You do get at total level 20. Also, if you multiclass 4 levels in one class and 16 in another, you can get two epic boons.
I read that as 19th level in a single class to get an Epic Boon feat. Proficiency bonus is at character level, everything else I thought was tied to class level?
The asi feature says:
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify.
Epic boons are feats with the prerequisite of level 19+.
I don't think anybody argues that you get it at level 19 like this. You do get at total level 20. Also, if you multiclass 4 levels in one class and 16 in another, you can get two epic boons.
I read that as 19th level in a single class to get an Epic Boon feat. Proficiency bonus is at character level, everything else I thought was tied to class level?
The feat prerequisites are not tied to a class; they're character level prerequisites. So, if your character level is at least 19, and you are granted a feat, you can take an Epic Boon feat, because you meet the prerequisite.
So, for instance, let's say you have 15 levels in Monk and 3 levels in Ranger. You gain a level, and you decide to put it in Ranger. You can now gain a feat, because the Ranger class has a class feature that offers one at level 4. It can be any feat you qualify for, which now includes Epic Boon feats, because your character level is 19.
Then, the next time you gain a level, you decide to put it in Monk. You get another feat right away, because the Monk class grants a feat at level 16. This can also be any feat you qualify for, including an Epic Boon feat, because your character level is still over 19.
I don't think anybody argues that you get it at level 19 like this. You do get at total level 20. Also, if you multiclass 4 levels in one class and 16 in another, you can get two epic boons.
I read that as 19th level in a single class to get an Epic Boon feat. Proficiency bonus is at character level, everything else I thought was tied to class level?
The feat prerequisites are not tied to a class; they're character level prerequisites. So, if your character level is at least 19, and you are granted a feat, you can take an Epic Boon feat, because you meet the prerequisite.
So, for instance, let's say you have 15 levels in Monk and 3 levels in Ranger. You gain a level, and you decide to put it in Ranger. You can now gain a feat, because the Ranger class has a class feature that offers one at level 4. It can be any feat you qualify for, which now includes Epic Boon feats, because your character level is 19.
Then, the next time you gain a level, you decide to put it in Monk. You get another feat right away, because the Monk class grants a feat at level 16. This can also be any feat you qualify for, including an Epic Boon feat, because your character level is still over 19.
This doesn't pan out in the online character creation. If you are a single class at 19, the bold print is there specifying a boon. If you attempt to multi-class, it is not and is only listed as ASI. I am going from memory only so I may have my facts wrong or the software changed and retconned whatever I thought I knew. 🤷🏿♂️
Again, regardless of what the feature is labeled as, it still grants you a feat, and you can take any feat you meet the prerequisites for. Both versions of the feature say "...or another feat of your choice for which you qualify". The Epic Boon feats' only prerequisite is just being level 19.
Although D&D Beyond's implementation of the rules shouldn't generally be taken as an argument for how the rules are meant to work, the online character builder does allow this; I literally just did it.
A monk does not need to multi-class in order to keep up with other martials. Their DPR is right in line with the other martials. They are not as tanky as the strength based classes, but they are without peer isolated against a single enemy due to deflect attacks.
I'm confused how 2014 was balanced for focus points and 2024 is not? The primary feature of elemental and shadow monks is a single focus point for 10 minutes. Uncanny metabolism will cover the entire expenditure of these features by tier 2. And suggesting weapon mastery is more effective than elemental attunement or shadow arts is ridiculous. Attunement gets you choice of multiple damage types, push and pull and 15 ft range. there is nothing close to that with weapon mastery, not to mention you are applying it to more attacks than any other martial gets. Shadow Arts effectively gets you advantage on all attacks and disadvantage on attacks against you. That is so powerful its approaching OP.
Another point to make is the 2024 Grappler feat is very strong and uniquely suited to Monks. A monk leveraging this feat will not get nearly as much value out of a dip for weapon mastery as the mastery most valuable to a monk (Nick) is not compatible with grappling.
I'm not saying there are not a lot of good multi class options for a monk, but the idea that its a necessity is completely false in my opinion.
I'm not sure why you are comparing a resourceless Monk to other martials? Fighters don't have any resources. Are you comparing to a barbarian without rage or a ranger without hunters mark? Those resources are a big part of what a monk is. You would not want to assume unlimited resources (although by tier 3 thats effectively what it is) but I think you are going too far the other way.
You do realize that a 2024 monk can step of the wind without spending any resources, right?
I have done the math on a one level dip to fighter, and its actually a net negative DPR to dip at level 2. You get a boost at levels 2 and 3, but you take a hit at level 4 because you are delaying the dex bump and feat, and a bigger hit at level 5 because you are delaying the damage bump and extra attack. In addition, deflect attacks is a game changer (especially at lower levels) and you want to get that as soon as possible. If you are going to dip, it makes more sense to wait until after level 5.
The hunters mark damage boost is situational. You have to burn a bonus action to cast, missing out on Monk bonus action attacks. If you change targets or lose concentration then you have to burn another bonus action. If you reach level 10 monk then you are burning three bonus action attacks and the DPR impact could easily be negative.
It also depends on the Monk subclass. A Shadow monk will be concentrating on darkness and wont be able to concentrate on Hunters Mark, so Ranger is not the best option in this case. An elemental monk (especially one focused on Grappling) might not get as much out of weapon mastery, TWF or sneak attack, but they still get a lot of value out of Hunter's Mark.
For a single level dip Rogue makes a lot of sense, but if you have any interest in going more than one level it probably makes sense to go fighter (action surge, tactical mind) or Ranger (TWF, expertise) as the second level Rogue is very redundant with Monk.
It may hurt stat wise but Paladin for Divine Favor with daggers (Spell requires a weapon so not bonus to Flurry of blows unless a subclass allows FoB with Monk Weapons since they both do the same damage) +1D4 to all attacks made with the weapons
If you want to make the Monk a little more MAD for a single level dip, the Barbarian could be an option. Rage works on unarmed strikes without having to be strength based so you only need 13 strength for the class dip. Sacrificing a little constitution would be worth it for the damage resistance and now you have +2 damage on all unarmed strikes. Won't work with a Shadow Monk who needs concentration for darkness, but might make some sense for grapple based monk.
If you want to make the Monk a little more MAD for a single level dip, the Barbarian could be an option. Rage works on unarmed strikes without having to be strength based so you only need 13 strength for the class dip. Sacrificing a little constitution would be worth it for the damage resistance and now you have +2 damage on all unarmed strikes. Won't work with a Shadow Monk who needs concentration for darkness, but might make some sense for grapple based monk.
They didn't change that:
Rage Damage. When you make an attack using Strength—with either a weapon or an Unarmed Strike—and deal damage to the target, you gain a bonus to the damage that increases as you gain levels as a Barbarian, as shown in the Rage Damage column of the Barbarian Features table.
If you want to make the Monk a little more MAD for a single level dip, the Barbarian could be an option. Rage works on unarmed strikes without having to be strength based so you only need 13 strength for the class dip. Sacrificing a little constitution would be worth it for the damage resistance and now you have +2 damage on all unarmed strikes. Won't work with a Shadow Monk who needs concentration for darkness, but might make some sense for grapple based monk.
They didn't change that:
Rage Damage. When you make an attack using Strength—with either a weapon or an Unarmed Strike—and deal damage to the target, you gain a bonus to the damage that increases as you gain levels as a Barbarian, as shown in the Rage Damage column of the Barbarian Features table.
Huh. I must be remembering that from the playtest. My bad.
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flurry of blows. it allows monks to attack twice, or three times at high levels, as a bonus action
I don't think anybody argues that you get it at level 19 like this. You do get at total level 20. Also, if you multiclass 4 levels in one class and 16 in another, you can get two epic boons.
I read that as 19th level in a single class to get an Epic Boon feat. Proficiency bonus is at character level, everything else I thought was tied to class level?
Life's hard - get a helmet!
The asi feature says:
Epic boons are feats with the prerequisite of level 19+.
The feat prerequisites are not tied to a class; they're character level prerequisites. So, if your character level is at least 19, and you are granted a feat, you can take an Epic Boon feat, because you meet the prerequisite.
So, for instance, let's say you have 15 levels in Monk and 3 levels in Ranger. You gain a level, and you decide to put it in Ranger. You can now gain a feat, because the Ranger class has a class feature that offers one at level 4. It can be any feat you qualify for, which now includes Epic Boon feats, because your character level is 19.
Then, the next time you gain a level, you decide to put it in Monk. You get another feat right away, because the Monk class grants a feat at level 16. This can also be any feat you qualify for, including an Epic Boon feat, because your character level is still over 19.
pronouns: he/she/they
This doesn't pan out in the online character creation. If you are a single class at 19, the bold print is there specifying a boon. If you attempt to multi-class, it is not and is only listed as ASI. I am going from memory only so I may have my facts wrong or the software changed and retconned whatever I thought I knew. 🤷🏿♂️
Again, regardless of what the feature is labeled as, it still grants you a feat, and you can take any feat you meet the prerequisites for. Both versions of the feature say "...or another feat of your choice for which you qualify". The Epic Boon feats' only prerequisite is just being level 19.
Although D&D Beyond's implementation of the rules shouldn't generally be taken as an argument for how the rules are meant to work, the online character builder does allow this; I literally just did it.
pronouns: he/she/they
A monk does not need to multi-class in order to keep up with other martials. Their DPR is right in line with the other martials. They are not as tanky as the strength based classes, but they are without peer isolated against a single enemy due to deflect attacks.
I'm confused how 2014 was balanced for focus points and 2024 is not? The primary feature of elemental and shadow monks is a single focus point for 10 minutes. Uncanny metabolism will cover the entire expenditure of these features by tier 2. And suggesting weapon mastery is more effective than elemental attunement or shadow arts is ridiculous. Attunement gets you choice of multiple damage types, push and pull and 15 ft range. there is nothing close to that with weapon mastery, not to mention you are applying it to more attacks than any other martial gets. Shadow Arts effectively gets you advantage on all attacks and disadvantage on attacks against you. That is so powerful its approaching OP.
Another point to make is the 2024 Grappler feat is very strong and uniquely suited to Monks. A monk leveraging this feat will not get nearly as much value out of a dip for weapon mastery as the mastery most valuable to a monk (Nick) is not compatible with grappling.
I'm not saying there are not a lot of good multi class options for a monk, but the idea that its a necessity is completely false in my opinion.
I'm not sure why you are comparing a resourceless Monk to other martials? Fighters don't have any resources. Are you comparing to a barbarian without rage or a ranger without hunters mark? Those resources are a big part of what a monk is. You would not want to assume unlimited resources (although by tier 3 thats effectively what it is) but I think you are going too far the other way.
You do realize that a 2024 monk can step of the wind without spending any resources, right?
I have done the math on a one level dip to fighter, and its actually a net negative DPR to dip at level 2. You get a boost at levels 2 and 3, but you take a hit at level 4 because you are delaying the dex bump and feat, and a bigger hit at level 5 because you are delaying the damage bump and extra attack. In addition, deflect attacks is a game changer (especially at lower levels) and you want to get that as soon as possible. If you are going to dip, it makes more sense to wait until after level 5.
The hunters mark damage boost is situational. You have to burn a bonus action to cast, missing out on Monk bonus action attacks. If you change targets or lose concentration then you have to burn another bonus action. If you reach level 10 monk then you are burning three bonus action attacks and the DPR impact could easily be negative.
It also depends on the Monk subclass. A Shadow monk will be concentrating on darkness and wont be able to concentrate on Hunters Mark, so Ranger is not the best option in this case. An elemental monk (especially one focused on Grappling) might not get as much out of weapon mastery, TWF or sneak attack, but they still get a lot of value out of Hunter's Mark.
For a single level dip Rogue makes a lot of sense, but if you have any interest in going more than one level it probably makes sense to go fighter (action surge, tactical mind) or Ranger (TWF, expertise) as the second level Rogue is very redundant with Monk.
It may hurt stat wise but Paladin for Divine Favor with daggers (Spell requires a weapon so not bonus to Flurry of blows unless a subclass allows FoB with Monk Weapons since they both do the same damage) +1D4 to all attacks made with the weapons
If you want to make the Monk a little more MAD for a single level dip, the Barbarian could be an option. Rage works on unarmed strikes without having to be strength based so you only need 13 strength for the class dip. Sacrificing a little constitution would be worth it for the damage resistance and now you have +2 damage on all unarmed strikes. Won't work with a Shadow Monk who needs concentration for darkness, but might make some sense for grapple based monk.
They didn't change that:
Huh. I must be remembering that from the playtest. My bad.