As mentioned upthread, the effects of Tavern Brawler's Damage Rerolls feature are small; a bonus of less than +0.5 damage per hit, and a slightly more consistent variance.
To each his own. If you roll a one then the the average of your next roll is going to be 3.5, 4.5, 5.5 and finally 6.5, plus modifiers and multiple attacks. Adding Savage Attacker to roll one of your weapon damage dice twice is a good supplemental for damage. Although I don't think you can take another origin Feat. For my Shadow Monk, Skulker is also a must have due to Blindsight. 👍
You absolutely can take more than one Origin feat. Methods include:
Choose Human as your species to take an extra Origin Feat at Character Creation
Choose an Origin Feat as your option at a level where you get the Ability Score Increase Class Feature
Have at least two levels of Warlock, and choose the Lesson of the First Ones Invocation.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
You absolutely can take more than one Origin feat. Methods include:
Choose Human as your species to take an extra Origin Feat at Character Creation
Choose an Origin Feat as your option at a level where you get the Ability Score Increase Class Feature
Have at least two levels of Warlock, and choose the Lesson of the First Ones Invocation.
I meant as a general rule up on gaining a new Feat. I knew #1, but since I never play Warlock, I didn't know about #3. Now I don't see where the rules say you can opt for another Origin Feat when qualify for the ASI. Even in the Feat descriptions it's straight forward that you have a Background Feat and a class level feat at certain levels. Other than the two exceptions you mentioned, you are stuck with your Origin Feat, unless your GM allows you to replace it.
You absolutely can take more than one Origin feat. Methods include:
Choose Human as your species to take an extra Origin Feat at Character Creation
Choose an Origin Feat as your option at a level where you get the Ability Score Increase Class Feature
Have at least two levels of Warlock, and choose the Lesson of the First Ones Invocation.
I meant as a general rule up on gaining a new Feat. I knew #1, but since I never play Warlock, I didn't know about #3. Now I don't see where the rules say you can opt for another Origin Feat when qualify for the ASI. Even in the Feat descriptions it's straight forward that you have a Background Feat and a class level feat at certain levels. Other than the two exceptions you mentioned, you are stuck with your Origin Feat, unless your GM allows you to replace it.
It's right here, in the Parts of A Feat section of the Feats chapter.
Category. A feat is a member of a category, which is noted in the feat. If you’re instructed to choose a feat from a specific category, such as the Origin category, that category must appear under the feat’s name. If you’re instructed to choose a feat and no category is specified, you can choose from any category.
For the various classes, the Ability Score Improvement feature reads as follows:
Level 4: Ability Score Improvement
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choicefor which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Barbarian levels 8, 12, and 16.
No category is specified. As a result, as long as you meet the prerequisites, at any ASI level, you can choose one feat using the following options:
At any ASI level, you can choose to take an Origin Feat or a General Feat
If you've obtained the Fighting Style Feature from one of your classes, you can choose a Fighting Style Feat.
If your character level is 19+, you can choose an Epic Boon Feat.
The D&D Beyond Character Creator supports all of the above options.
This also opens up the option of a 20th level character with two Epic Boon Feats, if the advancement is wrangled to have ASIs occur at character level 19 and Character level 20. Whether delaying the other ASIs and sacrificing at least the Level 17+ benefits of the primary class is worth this will depend on the build.
You absolutely can take more than one Origin feat. Methods include:
Choose Human as your species to take an extra Origin Feat at Character Creation
Choose an Origin Feat as your option at a level where you get the Ability Score Increase Class Feature
Have at least two levels of Warlock, and choose the Lesson of the First Ones Invocation.
I meant as a general rule up on gaining a new Feat. I knew #1, but since I never play Warlock, I didn't know about #3. Now I don't see where the rules say you can opt for another Origin Feat when qualify for the ASI. Even in the Feat descriptions it's straight forward that you have a Background Feat and a class level feat at certain levels. Other than the two exceptions you mentioned, you are stuck with your Origin Feat, unless your GM allows you to replace it.
It's right here, in the Parts of A Feat section of the Feats chapter.
Category. A feat is a member of a category, which is noted in the feat. If you’re instructed to choose a feat from a specific category, such as the Origin category, that category must appear under the feat’s name. If you’re instructed to choose a feat and no category is specified, you can choose from any category.
For the various classes, the Ability Score Improvement feature reads as follows:
Level 4: Ability Score Improvement
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choicefor which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Barbarian levels 8, 12, and 16.
No category is specified. As a result, as long as you meet the prerequisites, at any ASI level, you can choose one feat using the following options:
At any ASI level, you can choose to take an Origin Feat or a General Feat
If you've obtained the Fighting Style Feature from one of your classes, you can choose a Fighting Style Feat.
If your character level is 19+, you can choose an Epic Boon Feat.
The D&D Beyond Character Creator supports all of the above options.
This also opens up the option of a 20th level character with two Epic Boon Feats, if the advancement is wrangled to have ASIs occur at character level 19 and Character level 20. Whether delaying the other ASIs and sacrificing at least the Level 17+ benefits of the primary class is worth this will depend on the build.
The rules clearly state an Origin feat is bound to your Background. You don't get to make a separate background, thus you don't get a second Origin Feat. You only qualify for a second Origin Feat in the two exception already discussed, everyone else is bound to their initial Origin Feat.
The character creator, as already stated on this sub forum by many folks, is not perfect and doesn't supplant the rules.
You automatically gain one specific Origin feat as a part of your background, but you can add more to your repertoire in other ways. For example, if you play a Human character, one of your species’ features is to gain an extra Origin feat of your choice. You can also select an Origin feat if you choose when you reach a class level that allows you to pick a new feat.
The design intent appears to be that both Origin Feats and Fighting Style Feats be considered less desirable than General Feats, and restricting them by gating the latter behind Level 4.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
You automatically gain one specific Origin feat as a part of your background, but you can add more to your repertoire in other ways. For example, if you play a Human character, one of your species’ features is to gain an extra Origin feat of your choice. You can also select an Origin feat if you choose when you reach a class level that allows you to pick a new feat.
The design intent appears to be that both Origin Feats and Fighting Style Feats be considered less desirable than General Feats, and restricting them by gating the latter behind Level 4.
From what I see, "Gaining an Origin Feat in other ways" is only referring to Humans. It appears to be saying you can choose both now or wait. I don't believe it implies that last part applies to everyone. To sum up my point, If they wanted everyone to pick an extra origin feat, then why would they categorize them as General or Origin? They wouldn't. In fact they didn't even mention the Warlock feature also allows an extra Origin. And to conclude: if they wanted everyone to choose another Origin feat, it would be clearly stated in the PHB.
I hadn't commented on your math, because I was trying to determine how you got your numbers. How did you determine your mean for the tavern brawler? Thanks.
To be clear, no one is saying that "they want everyone to pick an extra origin feat". The option is there for those who want it; in most cases it's probably not a particularly good idea.
It is clearly stated in the PHB in the part that notovny quoted and highlighted in green.
I hadn't commented on your math, because I was trying to determine how you got your numbers. How did you determine your mean for the tavern brawler? Thanks.
The numbers in the table I made upthread assume a successful standard hit (not a critical hit), and that the attacker is using the specified die for Unarmed Combat damage, with no attribute bonus to the damage. In that specific case, it's a straightforward calculation.
The Damage Rerolls option from the Tavern Brawler feat reads as follows:
Damage Rerolls. Whenever you roll a damage die for your Unarmed Strike, you can reroll the die if it rolls a 1, and you must use the new roll.
For one n-sided die, this is the discrete probability distribution function for result X when using the above Damage Rerolls feature:
And the population mean µ can be calculated by summing the product of the result and the probability over all possible results:
It's been awhile since I've taken a Statistics course, so apologies if my notation is a bit off.
As for how I actually calculated it for the post, I used a version of this AnyDice Script:
Then clicked on "Summaries" (which also provided the standard deviation) and "Export", imported the results into Google Sheets, formatted, and copied and pasted the resulting table in the post.
Adding a damage bonus of +D increases the mean by D, and leaves the standard deviation unchanged.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
I hadn't commented on your math, because I was trying to determine how you got your numbers. How did you determine your mean for the tavern brawler? Thanks.
The numbers in the table I made upthread assume a successful standard hit (not a critical hit), and that the attacker is using the specified die for Unarmed Combat damage, with no attribute bonus to the damage. In that specific case, it's a straightforward calculation.
The Damage Rerolls option from the Tavern Brawler feat reads as follows:
Damage Rerolls. Whenever you roll a damage die for your Unarmed Strike, you can reroll the die if it rolls a 1, and you must use the new roll.
For one n-sided die, this is the discrete probability distribution function for result X when using the above Damage Rerolls feature:
And the population mean µ can be calculated by summing the product of the result and the probability over all possible results:
It's been awhile since I've taken a Statistics course, so apologies if my notation is a bit off.
As for how I actually calculated it for the post, I used a version of this AnyDice Script:
Then clicked on "Summaries" (which also provided the standard deviation) and "Export", imported the results into Google Sheets, formatted, and copied and pasted the resulting table in the post.
Adding a damage bonus of +D increases the mean by D, and leaves the standard deviation unchanged.
Hey there. Just wanted to say that I went back to see what Crawford said about Origin Feats and he clearly said you can later choose another feat when the feat selection becomes available again. I was wrong, but I still stick by with what I said about Tavern Brawler. 😉
Kind of late to the discussion but Grappler can work decently with Mercy Monk. I'd say its really geared toward Elements Monk but with Mercy at level 6, you can Grapple, give yourself advantage and apply the poison condition to the creature so now they have disadvantage to attack you while you're grappled. Now, many creates are immune to the poisoned condition so in those cases grapple may not be the best case, but whenever they are not immune it could work well. And when they're immune, Tavern Brawler is used to push them 5ft away from you so you can run away without needing to bonus action disengage.
The Tavern Brawler feat was meant for non-monks, to give them a better ability to fight with unarmed strikes. Giving it to a monk is a bit redundant, they simply don't need it.
I have played monks, I have seen many played by other players, I have DM'd for them - not once did I see any take Tavern Brawler or Grappler and quite frankly they did quite well without them. Their class abilities don't really need the help in that dept, you are better off going with a different feat if playing a monk.
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Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
The Tavern Brawler feat was meant for non-monks, to give them a better ability to fight with unarmed strikes. Giving it to a monk is a bit redundant, they simply don't need it.
I have played monks, I have seen many played by other players, I have DM'd for them - not once did I see any take Tavern Brawler or Grappler and quite frankly they did quite well without them. Their class abilities don't really need the help in that dept, you are better off going with a different feat if playing a monk.
I don't see anything to suggest that this feat was made for non monks. In my opinion, it enhances what the monk already has, to include re rolling ones. Selecting this was one of the best things I did for my Monk and he benefits greatly from it. Especially since his dexterity is used instead of his strength on the application.
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As mentioned upthread, the effects of Tavern Brawler's Damage Rerolls feature are small; a bonus of less than +0.5 damage per hit, and a slightly more consistent variance.
You absolutely can take more than one Origin feat. Methods include:
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
I meant as a general rule up on gaining a new Feat. I knew #1, but since I never play Warlock, I didn't know about #3. Now I don't see where the rules say you can opt for another Origin Feat when qualify for the ASI. Even in the Feat descriptions it's straight forward that you have a Background Feat and a class level feat at certain levels. Other than the two exceptions you mentioned, you are stuck with your Origin Feat, unless your GM allows you to replace it.
It's right here, in the Parts of A Feat section of the Feats chapter.
For the various classes, the Ability Score Improvement feature reads as follows:
No category is specified. As a result, as long as you meet the prerequisites, at any ASI level, you can choose one feat using the following options:
The D&D Beyond Character Creator supports all of the above options.
This also opens up the option of a 20th level character with two Epic Boon Feats, if the advancement is wrangled to have ASIs occur at character level 19 and Character level 20. Whether delaying the other ASIs and sacrificing at least the Level 17+ benefits of the primary class is worth this will depend on the build.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
The rules clearly state an Origin feat is bound to your Background. You don't get to make a separate background, thus you don't get a second Origin Feat. You only qualify for a second Origin Feat in the two exception already discussed, everyone else is bound to their initial Origin Feat.
The character creator, as already stated on this sub forum by many folks, is not perfect and doesn't supplant the rules.
The rules do not say this anywhere.
pronouns: he/she/they
Agreed. This is what the PHB has to say about backgrounds and origin feats in Chapter 4 / Origin Components / Character Backgrounds / Parts of a Background
Basically the same text is in the Free Rules: Origin Components / Character Backgrounds / Parts of a Background.
Neither the above, nor anything in the DMG restricts Origin Feats to Backgrounds.
There's also this excerpt from the "The Backgrounds and Origin Feats in the 2024 Player's Handbook" preview article from July '24:
The design intent appears to be that both Origin Feats and Fighting Style Feats be considered less desirable than General Feats, and restricting them by gating the latter behind Level 4.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
Thank you for laying that out in more detail, I had just been driving for several hours and only had enough brain for that one sentence.
pronouns: he/she/they
From what I see, "Gaining an Origin Feat in other ways" is only referring to Humans. It appears to be saying you can choose both now or wait. I don't believe it implies that last part applies to everyone. To sum up my point, If they wanted everyone to pick an extra origin feat, then why would they categorize them as General or Origin? They wouldn't. In fact they didn't even mention the Warlock feature also allows an extra Origin. And to conclude: if they wanted everyone to choose another Origin feat, it would be clearly stated in the PHB.
I hadn't commented on your math, because I was trying to determine how you got your numbers. How did you determine your mean for the tavern brawler? Thanks.
To be clear, no one is saying that "they want everyone to pick an extra origin feat". The option is there for those who want it; in most cases it's probably not a particularly good idea.
It is clearly stated in the PHB in the part that notovny quoted and highlighted in green.
pronouns: he/she/they
The numbers in the table I made upthread assume a successful standard hit (not a critical hit), and that the attacker is using the specified die for Unarmed Combat damage, with no attribute bonus to the damage. In that specific case, it's a straightforward calculation.
The Damage Rerolls option from the Tavern Brawler feat reads as follows:
For one n-sided die, this is the discrete probability distribution function for result X when using the above Damage Rerolls feature:
And the population mean µ can be calculated by summing the product of the result and the probability over all possible results:
It's been awhile since I've taken a Statistics course, so apologies if my notation is a bit off.
As for how I actually calculated it for the post, I used a version of this AnyDice Script:
Then clicked on "Summaries" (which also provided the standard deviation) and "Export", imported the results into Google Sheets, formatted, and copied and pasted the resulting table in the post.
Adding a damage bonus of +D increases the mean by D, and leaves the standard deviation unchanged.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
Hey there. Just wanted to say that I went back to see what Crawford said about Origin Feats and he clearly said you can later choose another feat when the feat selection becomes available again. I was wrong, but I still stick by with what I said about Tavern Brawler. 😉
Kind of late to the discussion but Grappler can work decently with Mercy Monk. I'd say its really geared toward Elements Monk but with Mercy at level 6, you can Grapple, give yourself advantage and apply the poison condition to the creature so now they have disadvantage to attack you while you're grappled. Now, many creates are immune to the poisoned condition so in those cases grapple may not be the best case, but whenever they are not immune it could work well. And when they're immune, Tavern Brawler is used to push them 5ft away from you so you can run away without needing to bonus action disengage.
The Tavern Brawler feat was meant for non-monks, to give them a better ability to fight with unarmed strikes. Giving it to a monk is a bit redundant, they simply don't need it.
I have played monks, I have seen many played by other players, I have DM'd for them - not once did I see any take Tavern Brawler or Grappler and quite frankly they did quite well without them. Their class abilities don't really need the help in that dept, you are better off going with a different feat if playing a monk.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
I don't see anything to suggest that this feat was made for non monks. In my opinion, it enhances what the monk already has, to include re rolling ones. Selecting this was one of the best things I did for my Monk and he benefits greatly from it. Especially since his dexterity is used instead of his strength on the application.