Hi Monks. I have a Way of Shadow monk that just hit level 12 and haven't decided on the ASI yet. He's a vhuman with mage slayer. Basically what I'm shooting for is a monk that is super mobile in order to get up next to a caster and ruin their day. I have 18 Dex and 20 Wis (got it to 20 thanks to a Tome of Understanding so I could get it to 22). I was thinking about putting it into dex here, but I'm also considering taking sentinel. I like the added attack for an added stun chance, but I also like it for the control aspect of not letting an enemy leave my area. Consider this! Cast silence on a caster (longer range than counterspell or use it after the enemy has used its reaction), then use my crazy mobility to go stand next to it. Now it's just stuck in silence. If it tries to cast a spell that doesn't have verbal components, I slap it in the face and maybe even stun it. This sounds fun to me but it's pretty situational. Still, the reaction attack would be useful quite often as well.
+1 to AC, Dex saves, and attack/damage is very good. Same with +1 to AC, wis saves, and save DC for stun. Any thoughts? Any feat I should be thinking of instead?
If you dont have the Mobile Feat, I would advise taking it. If they make the save on Stunning Strike, you can still use Step of the Wind to Dash away and get out of sight on them. Even silenced a caster can still be dangerous, never underestimate such. Having attacked, Mobile gives you the chance to get away without them getting an opportunity attack on you.
Also to add, yes I took into consideration Shadow Step as a Bonus Action instead of using Step of the Wind, however if you are not in dim light / darkness you cant use S.Step to get away. Along with no opportunity attack chance on your as you move away, Mobile also gives you that +10ft movement, along with not being affected by difficult terrain when using Dash.
Going to also add, if you are playing a Halfling Monk of Shadows, remember to use your Nimbleness to your advantage, that means even in full sunlight, there are always shadows of a creature that is a larger size than you :)
I know mobile is an option that people like. However, my monk ends up off tanking a lot and don't really think that it's necessary to be a little more mobile when my character is already crazy mobile. Also, every monk ever takes that. I want to do something different.
I decided to take 2 dex. My plan is still to take sentinel at some point. We're planning on going all the way to 20 so I'll have options at 16 and 19. 16 sounds more fun.
If your group is allowing UA options, going Eldritch Adept for Devil's sight could be fun. Then you could run around with Darkness on yourself, and ignore castings of magical darkness by other creatures.
Though Im sure the usefulness depends on if you are facing enemies that tend to have true sight or devil's sight.
Note: The UA version of Eldritch Adept requires the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature, which a single-classed monk won’t have.
You would be better off picking up the new feat that gives a fighting style and getting the Blind fighting style which gives you blindsight within 10ft.
Legend has it that Tasha's will be introducing a new feat called Fighting Initiate, which allows your character to take a Fighting Style. In addition to this, Tasha's will introduce a Fighting Style called Blind Fighting, which officiate and changes the Unearthed Arcana Fighting Style of the same name:
You have blindsight with a range of 10 feet. Within that range, you can effectively see anything that isn't behind total cover, even if you're blinded or in darkness. Moreover, you can see an invisible creature within that range, unless that creature successfully hides from you.
That will synergise exceptionally well with any magical darkness you or your party throws out.
Legend has it that Tasha's will be introducing a new feat called Fighting Initiate, which allows your character to take a Fighting Style. In addition to this, Tasha's will introduce a Fighting Style called Blind Fighting, which officiate and changes the Unearthed Arcana Fighting Style of the same name:
You have blindsight with a range of 10 feet. Within that range, you can effectively see anything that isn't behind total cover, even if you're blinded or in darkness. Moreover, you can see an invisible creature within that range, unless that creature successfully hides from you.
That will synergise exceptionally well with any magical darkness you or your party throws out.
Yeah this plus they are also introducing an ability for monks to make a BA attack if they spend ki on their turn means a shadow monk can cast darkness then run in and BA attack with advantage!
Legend has it that Tasha's will be introducing a new feat called Fighting Initiate, which allows your character to take a Fighting Style. In addition to this, Tasha's will introduce a Fighting Style called Blind Fighting, which officiate and changes the Unearthed Arcana Fighting Style of the same name:
You have blindsight with a range of 10 feet. Within that range, you can effectively see anything that isn't behind total cover, even if you're blinded or in darkness. Moreover, you can see an invisible creature within that range, unless that creature successfully hides from you.
That will synergise exceptionally well with any magical darkness you or your party throws out.
Yeah this plus they are also introducing an ability for monks to make a BA attack if they spend ki on their turn means a shadow monk can cast darkness then run in and BA attack with advantage!
What are people’s opinions on the usefulness of the Mobile feat for a WoS Monk?
Opportunity attacks are only made against a creature that you can see when it leaves your reach, however Darkness (especially with the the synergy of fighting in darkness with the Blind Fighting fighting style) typically means you’ll be able to freely leave enemies’ reach without provoking as they cannot see you to do so. This theory admittedly assumes enemies don’t possess True Sight/Blind Sight and that casting Darkness in group combat won’t be counter-productive and can happen freely.
Mobile is fine although I generally think it's largely redundant on any monk. Shadow is already the most mobile monk with shadow step so I think generally it's opportunity cost is too high. If your party has a tank and you generally are free to shadow step around I think you'd be better served with +2 to dex, wis, con, or blind sight. Or some other feat.
I'm not sold on blind-fighting working like Devil's Sight to fight in darkness. Blind-fighting is limited to 10 feet and the darkness radius is 15. You have 5 feet of darkness you can't see through all around you. How is said monk seeing where the enemy is if they are outside the 10 foot range? Does the character have the ability to remember where everyone is so that they don't just run blind in a direction? What happens when the enemies move? Moving your character towards enemies with darkness up and nothing but blindsight seems like metagaming, using the perfect knowledge of the board state you have from being outside the game. Seems like a suspect tactic at best.
Shadow Monks don't generally need mobile for the reasons you pointed out Lehrer, but it's still a really good feat on many monk builds. It's a huge boon to hit and run tactics which is something the monk does often. I agree it isn't worth the opportunity cost on a shadow monk though.
My understanding is that not being able to see an enemy doesn't necessarily mean you don't know where they are. That would still require the enemy taking the hide action.
I'm not sold on blind-fighting working like Devil's Sight to fight in darkness. Blind-fighting is limited to 10 feet and the darkness radius is 15. You have 5 feet of darkness you can't see through all around you. How is said monk seeing where the enemy is if they are outside the 10 foot range? Does the character have the ability to remember where everyone is so that they don't just run blind in a direction? What happens when the enemies move? Moving your character towards enemies with darkness up and nothing but blindsight seems like metagaming, using the perfect knowledge of the board state you have from being outside the game. Seems like a suspect tactic at best.
Shadow Monks don't generally need mobile for the reasons you pointed out Lehrer, but it's still a really good feat on many monk builds. It's a huge boon to hit and run tactics which is something the monk does often. I agree it isn't worth the opportunity cost on a shadow monk though.
The blindsight with darkness thing is a bit cheesy. The DM could require a perception check to see if the monk can figure out the enemy's general direction from sound or the last direction they saw them going. Or battlefield awareness could just mean you always get a general sense of which direction enemies are in combat, the same way any enemy can find a pc who hides in total cover by just walking their general direction. Or an ally can call out directions.
Something to make the monk's use of the darkness spell more viable would be cool, so I'd let them treat it as 15ft for that one situation.
Even if you extend blind fighting's radius the monk will still be running around blind. Blind sight is not sight. It's knowing where things are in a tight radius around you using your other senses. So Darkness is still blocking line of sight to everything outside of whatever radius you set for blind fighting.
I think having to talk about "battlefield awareness" or a teammate calling out directions speaks to just how cheesy it is to make it work.
I mean, enemies get battlefield awareness by default. If they see a rogue go behind total cover, it doesn't matter if the rogue rolls a 30 on their stealth check; the enemy is perfectly capable of following them and negating their stealth check with line of sight. So its not totally out there that a shadow monk can have the same general awareness to pursue an opponent. Especially since, how would anyone ever get to use blind fighting except when they are actively subject to a melee attacker in total dark, if its ruled that you cannot pursue targets in the dark?
A teammate calling things out could be kind of cheesy tbh, but it can be good if its role played as part of a larger tactic.
That isn't a good comparison. The rogue is attempting to hide, not blinding the enemy. The enemy has full use of its faculties. Thus, it can follow where it saw the rogue go. There's only so much hiding can do when you've made the enemy aware of your presence.
We're talking about a monk running up to where they remember enemies being while submerged in total darkness. I can kind of buy running up to the first guy right after casting it, but what about after that? When enemies move and suddenly the monk is in a different part of the battlefield still submerged in darkness. This should take steep perception checks at the very least as the monk tries to "hear" the enemies while in the middle of combat. This is way beyond the scope of battlefield awareness.
Especially since, how would anyone ever get to use blind fighting except when they are actively subject to a melee attacker in total dark, if its ruled that you cannot pursue targets in the dark?
Nothing in blind fighting says that its supposed to enable you to pursue someone. They wouldn't limit it to 10 feet if they wanted it to function like that. It's actually way more limited in its application than people seem to think. You basically have to stumble upon your enemy.
I wouldn't say the character with blind fighting can make ranged attacks outside the darkness without disadvantage. That would be the real drawback of this feat.
But walking the direction they know the enemies were, or were going... at walking speed, to remain aware of their surroundings... that seems reasonable.
But if we really rule that a character with blind fighter can only ever benefit from it when an enemy remains in melee range in the dark/fog, and that it instantly becomes more or less useless if they move more than 10ft away... well that seriously nerfs it to almost never do anything. And with Tashas, anyone can pick up Devil's Sight via feat, so trying to nickel and dime this feature to be more or less worthless just kills the rule of cool.
I can understand requiring a perception check to get access to advantage that round, via unseen attacker. Or thunder based attacks canceling out blindsight for a round, to even add an inherent weakness. But letting it be better than being totally niche isn't game breaking.
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Hi Monks. I have a Way of Shadow monk that just hit level 12 and haven't decided on the ASI yet. He's a vhuman with mage slayer. Basically what I'm shooting for is a monk that is super mobile in order to get up next to a caster and ruin their day. I have 18 Dex and 20 Wis (got it to 20 thanks to a Tome of Understanding so I could get it to 22). I was thinking about putting it into dex here, but I'm also considering taking sentinel. I like the added attack for an added stun chance, but I also like it for the control aspect of not letting an enemy leave my area. Consider this! Cast silence on a caster (longer range than counterspell or use it after the enemy has used its reaction), then use my crazy mobility to go stand next to it. Now it's just stuck in silence. If it tries to cast a spell that doesn't have verbal components, I slap it in the face and maybe even stun it. This sounds fun to me but it's pretty situational. Still, the reaction attack would be useful quite often as well.
+1 to AC, Dex saves, and attack/damage is very good. Same with +1 to AC, wis saves, and save DC for stun. Any thoughts? Any feat I should be thinking of instead?
If you dont have the Mobile Feat, I would advise taking it. If they make the save on Stunning Strike, you can still use Step of the Wind to Dash away and get out of sight on them. Even silenced a caster can still be dangerous, never underestimate such. Having attacked, Mobile gives you the chance to get away without them getting an opportunity attack on you.
Also to add, yes I took into consideration Shadow Step as a Bonus Action instead of using Step of the Wind, however if you are not in dim light / darkness you cant use S.Step to get away. Along with no opportunity attack chance on your as you move away, Mobile also gives you that +10ft movement, along with not being affected by difficult terrain when using Dash.
Going to also add, if you are playing a Halfling Monk of Shadows, remember to use your Nimbleness to your advantage, that means even in full sunlight, there are always shadows of a creature that is a larger size than you :)
I know mobile is an option that people like. However, my monk ends up off tanking a lot and don't really think that it's necessary to be a little more mobile when my character is already crazy mobile. Also, every monk ever takes that. I want to do something different.
I decided to take 2 dex. My plan is still to take sentinel at some point. We're planning on going all the way to 20 so I'll have options at 16 and 19. 16 sounds more fun.
If your group is allowing UA options, going Eldritch Adept for Devil's sight could be fun. Then you could run around with Darkness on yourself, and ignore castings of magical darkness by other creatures.
Though Im sure the usefulness depends on if you are facing enemies that tend to have true sight or devil's sight.
The group doesn't allow UA but if that ends up in Tasha's I may very well end up taking it at 16.
Note: The UA version of Eldritch Adept requires the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature, which a single-classed monk won’t have.
You would be better off picking up the new feat that gives a fighting style and getting the Blind fighting style which gives you blindsight within 10ft.
Darn. I overlooked that.
Legend has it that Tasha's will be introducing a new feat called Fighting Initiate, which allows your character to take a Fighting Style. In addition to this, Tasha's will introduce a Fighting Style called Blind Fighting, which officiate and changes the Unearthed Arcana Fighting Style of the same name:
You have blindsight with a range of 10 feet. Within that range, you can effectively see anything that isn't behind total cover, even if you're blinded or in darkness. Moreover, you can see an invisible creature within that range, unless that creature successfully hides from you.
That will synergise exceptionally well with any magical darkness you or your party throws out.
Yeah this plus they are also introducing an ability for monks to make a BA attack if they spend ki on their turn means a shadow monk can cast darkness then run in and BA attack with advantage!
ooh I hadn't thought about that. Nice!
What are people’s opinions on the usefulness of the Mobile feat for a WoS Monk?
Opportunity attacks are only made against a creature that you can see when it leaves your reach, however Darkness (especially with the the synergy of fighting in darkness with the Blind Fighting fighting style) typically means you’ll be able to freely leave enemies’ reach without provoking as they cannot see you to do so. This theory admittedly assumes enemies don’t possess True Sight/Blind Sight and that casting Darkness in group combat won’t be counter-productive and can happen freely.
Mobile is fine although I generally think it's largely redundant on any monk. Shadow is already the most mobile monk with shadow step so I think generally it's opportunity cost is too high. If your party has a tank and you generally are free to shadow step around I think you'd be better served with +2 to dex, wis, con, or blind sight. Or some other feat.
I'm not sold on blind-fighting working like Devil's Sight to fight in darkness. Blind-fighting is limited to 10 feet and the darkness radius is 15. You have 5 feet of darkness you can't see through all around you. How is said monk seeing where the enemy is if they are outside the 10 foot range? Does the character have the ability to remember where everyone is so that they don't just run blind in a direction? What happens when the enemies move? Moving your character towards enemies with darkness up and nothing but blindsight seems like metagaming, using the perfect knowledge of the board state you have from being outside the game. Seems like a suspect tactic at best.
Shadow Monks don't generally need mobile for the reasons you pointed out Lehrer, but it's still a really good feat on many monk builds. It's a huge boon to hit and run tactics which is something the monk does often. I agree it isn't worth the opportunity cost on a shadow monk though.
My understanding is that not being able to see an enemy doesn't necessarily mean you don't know where they are. That would still require the enemy taking the hide action.
The blindsight with darkness thing is a bit cheesy. The DM could require a perception check to see if the monk can figure out the enemy's general direction from sound or the last direction they saw them going. Or battlefield awareness could just mean you always get a general sense of which direction enemies are in combat, the same way any enemy can find a pc who hides in total cover by just walking their general direction. Or an ally can call out directions.
Something to make the monk's use of the darkness spell more viable would be cool, so I'd let them treat it as 15ft for that one situation.
Even if you extend blind fighting's radius the monk will still be running around blind. Blind sight is not sight. It's knowing where things are in a tight radius around you using your other senses. So Darkness is still blocking line of sight to everything outside of whatever radius you set for blind fighting.
I think having to talk about "battlefield awareness" or a teammate calling out directions speaks to just how cheesy it is to make it work.
I mean, enemies get battlefield awareness by default. If they see a rogue go behind total cover, it doesn't matter if the rogue rolls a 30 on their stealth check; the enemy is perfectly capable of following them and negating their stealth check with line of sight. So its not totally out there that a shadow monk can have the same general awareness to pursue an opponent. Especially since, how would anyone ever get to use blind fighting except when they are actively subject to a melee attacker in total dark, if its ruled that you cannot pursue targets in the dark?
A teammate calling things out could be kind of cheesy tbh, but it can be good if its role played as part of a larger tactic.
That isn't a good comparison. The rogue is attempting to hide, not blinding the enemy. The enemy has full use of its faculties. Thus, it can follow where it saw the rogue go. There's only so much hiding can do when you've made the enemy aware of your presence.
We're talking about a monk running up to where they remember enemies being while submerged in total darkness. I can kind of buy running up to the first guy right after casting it, but what about after that? When enemies move and suddenly the monk is in a different part of the battlefield still submerged in darkness. This should take steep perception checks at the very least as the monk tries to "hear" the enemies while in the middle of combat. This is way beyond the scope of battlefield awareness.
Nothing in blind fighting says that its supposed to enable you to pursue someone. They wouldn't limit it to 10 feet if they wanted it to function like that. It's actually way more limited in its application than people seem to think. You basically have to stumble upon your enemy.
I wouldn't say the character with blind fighting can make ranged attacks outside the darkness without disadvantage. That would be the real drawback of this feat.
But walking the direction they know the enemies were, or were going... at walking speed, to remain aware of their surroundings... that seems reasonable.
But if we really rule that a character with blind fighter can only ever benefit from it when an enemy remains in melee range in the dark/fog, and that it instantly becomes more or less useless if they move more than 10ft away... well that seriously nerfs it to almost never do anything. And with Tashas, anyone can pick up Devil's Sight via feat, so trying to nickel and dime this feature to be more or less worthless just kills the rule of cool.
I can understand requiring a perception check to get access to advantage that round, via unseen attacker. Or thunder based attacks canceling out blindsight for a round, to even add an inherent weakness. But letting it be better than being totally niche isn't game breaking.