So i have paladin that just got fourth level and i'm wracking my brain on feats vs ASI. I got a lot of good info/advice on a different thread. I saw someone mentioned elsewhere about Magic Initiate and i've been checking out that possibility. Using booming blade or green-flame blade and lightening lure for the cantrips and absorb elements for the 1L. Has anyone done this? or seen it in action? Thoughts?
I don't like that idea. MI is a feat best taken at creation, or on a fighter/rogue with feats to spare. Paladins want multiple feats and to cap out their CHA or STR, or even both. You're reliant on multiple attributes, and so few feat opportunities, so I find it very hard to justify using it on MI. Booming blade/green flame blade are fantastic cantrips on a bladesinger or an eldritch knight or sorcerer, as they have ways to attack alongside their cantrip. But when you reach lvl 5, your extra attack is a superior option, and this becomes especially true when you use feats like GWM.
Even then, I think taking MI to learn absorb elements to be highly inefficient. I'd much recommend learning Find Familiar instead to get the most bang for your buck. If you're a sword-n-board paladin, you won't be able to even use absorb elements without warcaster (although BB/GFB do allow you to do so even without warcaster cause the sword is the material component and the hand wielding it can perform the somatic component).
Pro-gamer tip: multiclass into sorcerer if you want those spells and cantrips instead, and enjoy the realm of sorcadin powergaming.
Yeah, gonna second what cgarciao said. The attack cantrips will be redundant and worse than your attack action by the time you get extra attack next level. To keep them relevant and a regular part of your routine you would have to invest in Polearm Master and War Caster to use them on opportunity attacks, which is a feat cost a paladin has a hard time fitting into the build in a timely manner, especially if you haven't been planning the character around it.
I think entertaining magic initiate for out of combat cantrip and spell options is much more enticing if you don't mind sacrificing some combat prowess for utility and roleplay potential. Even then, I'd probably just be looking at Blessed Warrior (you can always retrain into this thanks to martial versatility) and save the feat/asi for something a little more crunchy.
You could look into picking up two Charisma boosting half-feats; one at level 4 and the other at level 8. I'm all about Telekinetic right now, which I think is an interesting way to fill out the bonus action on a Paladin. Alternatively you could go for two Strength boosting half-feats, but I think the options there are much less exciting.
Inspiring Leader is nice if you don't have a teammate regularly handing out temp HP.
Eldritch Adept is a personal favorite of mine despite its limitations and could really diversify your character. Misty Visions for at-will Silent Image would add a completely different angle for example.
Lucky is just a great feat. Nothing interesting about it, just general goodness.
Sentinel is good for keeping enemies focused on you, but varies in value based on how smart the DM plays enemies and what kinds of enemies they generally throw at you.
HZ, good points as usual. I was seriously agonizing over your first paragraph. I was looking hard at Telekenetic and Fey Touched.
However, as compelling as those options are, I looked at my character sheet and realized i have an Achilles heel, my 12 DEX and 12 WIS, limiting my perception, passive and active, and initiative. Enter, Alert. You gain a +5 bonus to initiative, you can't be surprised while you are conscious, and other creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being unseen by you.
Alert is one of the most defensively powerful feats. You can't go wrong, even if you're not benefitting all that much from the initiative TBH. On fighters, I'll always take alert after I've capped out STR, but I've never felt like I got enough room on a paladin, but then again, I have a strong bias towards offensive-orientated builds.
Heh. That's hilarious. I was thinking about adding Alert to the list and then I didn't for whatever reason. I think it's sweet. Paladin's are natural bodyguards and Alert is an excellent bodyguard feat.
As someone who plays mostly controlling, aoe heavy casters, I will say one thing. It can be crazy annoying when your melee allies go first and move in ways that make your spells less effective or even impossible to cast. This is certainly not some unredeemable problem, just something to keep in mind when approaching combat with someone like that in your party since it will come up much more with the boosted initiative.
I highly recommend retraining Defense to Blessed Warrior. Picking up Toll the Dead/Sacred Flame is a huge get because it means you can more easily diversify how you initiate combat. Honestly, it's just great for Paladins in general, but I think it gains some extra points on a build with Alert. Low initiative rolls can actually be super clutch on melee characters because it can allow the enemy to close a distance that they could not do on their own. With more high rolls you will face more situations where you go before the enemy, can't close the gap and need something else to do first turn. Now all of a sudden you can meaningfully participate in backpedaling maneuvers that draw the enemy to your group. And for those times when the enemies are lined up well for the control caster, it gives you a whole new angle to avoid stepping on their toes if you go before them.
You also get access to Guidance which can help your perception and the like.
So i have paladin that just got fourth level and i'm wracking my brain on feats vs ASI. I got a lot of good info/advice on a different thread. I saw someone mentioned elsewhere about Magic Initiate and i've been checking out that possibility. Using booming blade or green-flame blade and lightening lure for the cantrips and absorb elements for the 1L. Has anyone done this? or seen it in action? Thoughts?
This may help with figuring DPR of the extra attack vs melee cantrips. I would just go with the extra attack you are going to get at level 5. I would personally not go in the Magic Initiate direction with my first (or second ASI if you are a variant human), but it's your character, play it as you wish. :)
If I did take it, I would probably go with a ranged spell damage cantrip. Paladins seem to usually struggle with ranged damage. The class is built for melee, not really built for ranged damage.
If you like to use the Shield not only for Defense, but also as a weapon, I suggest you should put the effort in taking Shield Master. SO, if you get robbed and you have no more weapons, guess who gonna wack the enemies using the shield with both hands ??? And if you took the Shield as the alternate Arcane focus, it's a WIN-WIN situation.
Skill Expert is the choice every Paladin should get at lvl 18. The best way to get it, is by doing secondary quests ( non-Main quests ). The more quests you do, the more chance to get this Feat.
If you like to use the Shield not only for Defense, but also as a weapon, I suggest you should put the effort in taking Shield Master. SO, if you get robbed and you have no more weapons, guess who gonna wack the enemies using the shield with both hands ??? And if you took the Shield as the alternate Arcane focus, it's a WIN-WIN situation.
Skill Expert is the choice every Paladin should get at lvl 18. The best way to get it, is by doing secondary quests ( non-Main quests ). The more quests you do, the more chance to get this Feat.
Hmm, Shield Master is nice to use but it's not actually a weapon as RAW which my DM don't allow,
Also my DM don't freely give out free feats to everybody as a quest rewards and Skill Expert is a powerful half feat to get as a reward and anyway thanks for the tip then.
Yeah unfortunately that isn't how Shield Master works. The closest you can get to using your shield as a weapon is taking the feat, Tavern Brawler, which would allow you to use your shield as an improvised weapon with proficiency.
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I don't like that idea. MI is a feat best taken at creation, or on a fighter/rogue with feats to spare. Paladins want multiple feats and to cap out their CHA or STR, or even both. You're reliant on multiple attributes, and so few feat opportunities, so I find it very hard to justify using it on MI. Booming blade/green flame blade are fantastic cantrips on a bladesinger or an eldritch knight or sorcerer, as they have ways to attack alongside their cantrip. But when you reach lvl 5, your extra attack is a superior option, and this becomes especially true when you use feats like GWM.
Even then, I think taking MI to learn absorb elements to be highly inefficient. I'd much recommend learning Find Familiar instead to get the most bang for your buck. If you're a sword-n-board paladin, you won't be able to even use absorb elements without warcaster (although BB/GFB do allow you to do so even without warcaster cause the sword is the material component and the hand wielding it can perform the somatic component).
Pro-gamer tip: multiclass into sorcerer if you want those spells and cantrips instead, and enjoy the realm of sorcadin powergaming.
Yeah, gonna second what cgarciao said. The attack cantrips will be redundant and worse than your attack action by the time you get extra attack next level. To keep them relevant and a regular part of your routine you would have to invest in Polearm Master and War Caster to use them on opportunity attacks, which is a feat cost a paladin has a hard time fitting into the build in a timely manner, especially if you haven't been planning the character around it.
I think entertaining magic initiate for out of combat cantrip and spell options is much more enticing if you don't mind sacrificing some combat prowess for utility and roleplay potential. Even then, I'd probably just be looking at Blessed Warrior (you can always retrain into this thanks to martial versatility) and save the feat/asi for something a little more crunchy.
Thanks. I'll keep looking...
You could look into picking up two Charisma boosting half-feats; one at level 4 and the other at level 8. I'm all about Telekinetic right now, which I think is an interesting way to fill out the bonus action on a Paladin. Alternatively you could go for two Strength boosting half-feats, but I think the options there are much less exciting.
Inspiring Leader is nice if you don't have a teammate regularly handing out temp HP.
Eldritch Adept is a personal favorite of mine despite its limitations and could really diversify your character. Misty Visions for at-will Silent Image would add a completely different angle for example.
Lucky is just a great feat. Nothing interesting about it, just general goodness.
Sentinel is good for keeping enemies focused on you, but varies in value based on how smart the DM plays enemies and what kinds of enemies they generally throw at you.
HZ, good points as usual. I was seriously agonizing over your first paragraph. I was looking hard at Telekenetic and Fey Touched.
However, as compelling as those options are, I looked at my character sheet and realized i have an Achilles heel, my 12 DEX and 12 WIS, limiting my perception, passive and active, and initiative. Enter, Alert. You gain a +5 bonus to initiative, you can't be surprised while you are conscious, and other creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls against you as a result of being unseen by you.
Helps the character and the party. The +6 to Initiative on my character sheet looks pretty sweet. https://ddb.ac/characters/43136507/TT1yPY
Wutcha think?
Alert is one of the most defensively powerful feats. You can't go wrong, even if you're not benefitting all that much from the initiative TBH. On fighters, I'll always take alert after I've capped out STR, but I've never felt like I got enough room on a paladin, but then again, I have a strong bias towards offensive-orientated builds.
Heh. That's hilarious. I was thinking about adding Alert to the list and then I didn't for whatever reason. I think it's sweet. Paladin's are natural bodyguards and Alert is an excellent bodyguard feat.
As someone who plays mostly controlling, aoe heavy casters, I will say one thing. It can be crazy annoying when your melee allies go first and move in ways that make your spells less effective or even impossible to cast. This is certainly not some unredeemable problem, just something to keep in mind when approaching combat with someone like that in your party since it will come up much more with the boosted initiative.
I highly recommend retraining Defense to Blessed Warrior. Picking up Toll the Dead/Sacred Flame is a huge get because it means you can more easily diversify how you initiate combat. Honestly, it's just great for Paladins in general, but I think it gains some extra points on a build with Alert. Low initiative rolls can actually be super clutch on melee characters because it can allow the enemy to close a distance that they could not do on their own. With more high rolls you will face more situations where you go before the enemy, can't close the gap and need something else to do first turn. Now all of a sudden you can meaningfully participate in backpedaling maneuvers that draw the enemy to your group. And for those times when the enemies are lined up well for the control caster, it gives you a whole new angle to avoid stepping on their toes if you go before them.
You also get access to Guidance which can help your perception and the like.
This may help with figuring DPR of the extra attack vs melee cantrips. I would just go with the extra attack you are going to get at level 5. I would personally not go in the Magic Initiate direction with my first (or second ASI if you are a variant human), but it's your character, play it as you wish. :)
If I did take it, I would probably go with a ranged spell damage cantrip. Paladins seem to usually struggle with ranged damage. The class is built for melee, not really built for ranged damage.
RPGBOT - DnD 5e - Melee Cantrips vs. Extra Attack
If you like to use the Shield not only for Defense, but also as a weapon, I suggest you should put the effort in taking Shield Master. SO, if you get robbed and you have no more weapons, guess who gonna wack the enemies using the shield with both hands ??? And if you took the Shield as the alternate Arcane focus, it's a WIN-WIN situation.
Skill Expert is the choice every Paladin should get at lvl 18. The best way to get it, is by doing secondary quests ( non-Main quests ). The more quests you do, the more chance to get this Feat.
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
Hmm, Shield Master is nice to use but it's not actually a weapon as RAW which my DM don't allow,
Also my DM don't freely give out free feats to everybody as a quest rewards and Skill Expert is a powerful half feat to get as a reward and anyway thanks for the tip then.
Yeah unfortunately that isn't how Shield Master works. The closest you can get to using your shield as a weapon is taking the feat, Tavern Brawler, which would allow you to use your shield as an improvised weapon with proficiency.