In terms of level 20 builds for Paladin Warlock multiclassing, I find the 6 Paladin/14 Warlock to be a good balance. You pick up Extra Attack and bonus to saving throws from the Paladin side while still hitting the level 14 Warlock feature. The 3 Warlock spell slots are a nice bonus as well compared to only 2 if you go 11 Paladin/9 Warlock or a 10/10 split.
8 Paladin/ 12 Warlock is solid as well, granting you 5 ASIs and the level 7 Paladin feature while still hitting key Warlock requirements like 3 spell slots and the Lifedrinker Invocation.
Anything past 11 Paladin and I feel you might be better off just staying Paladin.
In terms of level 20 builds for Paladin Warlock multiclassing, I find the 6 Paladin/14 Warlock to be a good balance. You pick up Extra Attack and bonus to saving throws from the Paladin side while still hitting the level 14 Warlock feature. The 3 Warlock spell slots are a nice bonus as well compared to only 2 if you go 11 Paladin/9 Warlock or a 10/10 split.
8 Paladin/ 12 Warlock is solid as well, granting you 5 ASIs and the level 7 Paladin feature while still hitting key Warlock requirements like 3 spell slots and the Lifedrinker Invocation.
Anything past 11 Paladin and I feel you might be better off just staying Paladin.
I agree, there are a lot of good choices and perfectly viable builds with this mix. I want 3rd level paladin spells, though. Not just for smites, but as a vengeance paladin, I would be able to cast Haste, which I have had my eyes on since I started. So going 9 levels of paladin is my "floor," I think.
Lifedrinker is really strong! I would love to get that passive constant +5 damage from having 20 Cha. It would be giving you your Cha modifier twice, into the damage! Once as your basic attack/damage modifier, then again as Lifedrinker. So a +10 to damage on every hit! But while Lifedrinker gives a constant +5, remember that Improved Divine Smite is 1d8 which is an average of 4.5 damage, so not far off. Also, Improved Divine Smite will crit, so 2d8 or 9 avg in that situation.
There are no really wrong builds or concepts in here. As with all things in 5e, if we get one thing, we lose something else. It just comes down to what we each value more.
I don't think that it's too late to multi-class, at level 10. I am toying with the idea of my paladin going 11 pal / 9 warlock (hexblade). I would lose an ASI, but that doesn't matter as much to me. Although, if I later decide it does matter, I may go 12 pal / 8 warlock. But my current thinking is the level 5 pact spell slots and another invocation is worth as much or more than an ASI/feat.
What bothers me the most is losing Cleansing Touch. If I decide not to go with my current plan, that will be the reason. The ability to end one spell effect without having to make a roll to dispel or the like is pretty darn powerful! Invocations have give a lot of flavor and color to roleplay, also, though. So the more the merrier imo. :)
I have no idea what this dude's campaign looks like, but it's never a good thing to plan progression based on a lvl 20 basis. Chances are his campaign's going to end sooner rather than later. Is it a home game or AL?That said, I honestly have no idea what this guy's plans are either. Is he wanting more warlock levels? Does he intend on just a level of hexblade? Honestly, I love hexblade paladins and I've got one I'm building towards 11/9 split too, but I planned around it from the start and might not be this guy's cup of tea. These questions are important to consider to give more feedback.
Yeah, I knew where I was going from the start also. Maybe not exactly, but had a solid concept. So I have kept my Str at 16 and used my ASI/Feat for other things than bumping a stat I was going to replace as my combat modifier. Armor of Hexes at 10th level is also very nice. Hmmm...10 paladin / 10 hexblade? 9 paladin / 11 hexblade? lol
I mostly think that anything in Paladin past level 7 is just gravy.
If I had a full choice I would do Paladin 7/ Warlock 13 personally as lifedrinker and the short rest smite slots will be nice.
I mostly think that anything in Paladin past level 7 is just gravy.
If I had a full choice I would do Paladin 7/ Warlock 13 personally as lifedrinker and the short rest smite slots will be nice.
This is a pretty good split. I might be tempted to do 8/12 for the extra ASI. I guess it depends what you want for the lvl 7 incarnum.
9th paladin level is 3rd level spells though. I think that's worth more than an ASI.
Also 11th level of warlock brings a 3rd pact slot of 5th level. That and a 6th level Mystic Arcanum make the 11th level of warlock very strong imo. I like paladin 9/ warlock 11 better than 11/9 the other way.
I mostly think that anything in Paladin past level 7 is just gravy.
If I had a full choice I would do Paladin 7/ Warlock 13 personally as lifedrinker and the short rest smite slots will be nice.
This is a pretty good split. I might be tempted to do 8/12 for the extra ASI. I guess it depends what you want for the lvl 7 incarnum.
9th paladin level is 3rd level spells though. I think that's worth more than an ASI.
Also 11th level of warlock brings a 3rd pact slot of 5th level. That and a 6th level Mystic Arcanum make the 11th level of warlock very strong imo. I like paladin 9/ warlock 11 better than 11/9 the other way.
Just in terms of making your turns more fun, if you're willing to take a hit to damage I find that using smite spells more often than the regular divine smite can be more fun. It requires decent cha so your save DC is good, but the extra effects they can give I find more fun than doing more damage with divine smite. Smacking enemies around with thunderous, setting them on fire, blinding them etc. They can add some fun variety (while still offering damage too) as opposed to just the potent but straight forward amage from divine smites.
Level 10 definitely isn't too late to multiclass, but if you made it that far (with vengeance I personally tend to multi out after level 6), then you might as well stick it out at least to level 13.
Improved Divine Smite is a big deal, so you don't want to abandon it when you're only one level away. So you'll get level 11.
Paladins are famously ASI starved, as you need high scores in both weapon attack and charisma, and there are a great many very valuable feats for paladins (resilient con, inspiring leader, alert, sentinel, lucky, polearm master and/or great weapon master, fey touched, warcaster - especially if you do plan to multiclass), so you don't want to multi out when there's an asi only one level away, so you'll get level 12.
Level 13 is 4th level paladin spells. If you use all your slots for smiting, then you might be tempted to multi out, since you can get the same slots from sorcerer or bard plus a bunch of first level class features, but there are a few actual paladin spells that are really worth pucking up, the mist notable being 'Improved Find Steed' from Xanathar's guide. Your very own pegasus is a big big deal and unless your campaign consists exclusuvely of indoor or underground dungeon delving you do not want to pass that up. Dimension Door as an oath spell is also very good.
After level 13 though? If you're campaign is still ongoing then I would definitely look to multiclassing. Cleansing Touch is ok, but the soells you'd most want to end don't let you use your action to use it. Your 15th level oath feature is decent but not a must have imo. 16th level is another precious asi, but at level 13 that's still three levels away.
You don't have to multi out after level 13, you can just keep going with paladin. But yeah, personally I'd jump out then. Well, again, with vengeance I'd have jumped out at level 6, but assuming I'd stayed to 10, I'd keep going to 13. But after that, imo you'll get more from putting your remaining seven levels into warlock, sorcerer, or bard.
Keep in mind, though, that's just talking about multying out - leaving paladin & not coming back. If you were considering a dip, you could do that right now. You might be well served by a single level of hexblade or undeadlock now, then come back for paladin 11-13 before then either returning to warlock or jumping into bard or sorcerer.
Level 10 definitely isn't too late to multiclass, but if you made it that far (with vengeance I personally tend to multi out after level 6), then you might as well stick it out at least to level 13.
Improved Divine Smite is a big deal, so you don't want to abandon it when you're only one level away. So you'll get level 11.
Paladins are famously ASI starved, as you need high scores in both weapon attack and charisma, and there are a great many very valuable feats for paladins (resilient con, inspiring leader, alert, sentinel, lucky, polearm master and/or great weapon master, fey touched, warcaster - especially if you do plan to multiclass), so you don't want to multi out when there's an asi only one level away, so you'll get level 12.
Level 13 is 4th level paladin spells. If you use all your slots for smiting, then you might be tempted to multi out, since you can get the same slots from sorcerer or bard plus a bunch of first level class features, but there are a few actual paladin spells that are really worth pucking up, the mist notable being 'Improved Find Steed' from Xanathar's guide. Your very own pegasus is a big big deal and unless your campaign consists exclusuvely of indoor or underground dungeon delving you do not want to pass that up. Dimension Door as an oath spell is also very good.
After level 13 though? If you're campaign is still ongoing then I would definitely look to multiclassing. Cleansing Touch is ok, but the soells you'd most want to end don't let you use your action to use it. Your 15th level oath feature is decent but not a must have imo. 16th level is another precious asi, but at level 13 that's still three levels away.
You don't have to multi out after level 13, you can just keep going with paladin. But yeah, personally I'd jump out then. Well, again, with vengeance I'd have jumped out at level 6, but assuming I'd stayed to 10, I'd keep going to 13. But after that, imo you'll get more from putting your remaining seven levels into warlock, sorcerer, or bard.
Keep in mind, though, that's just talking about multying out - leaving paladin & not coming back. If you were considering a dip, you could do that right now. You might be well served by a single level of hexblade or undeadlock now, then come back for paladin 11-13 before then either returning to warlock or jumping into bard or sorcerer.
Not saying you are wrong about any of it, since it's mostly opinion and subjective. But wanted to point out that Cleansing Touch can be exceptionally powerful. The ability to remove one spell from yourself or somebody else, no saving throw, no dispel check, no worries about how high a level the spell is, can be very powerful. Cleansing Touch can remove a debilitating 8th level spell from a party member, like it never happened.
I also would tend to mulit-class to something else, at an earlier point. But just pure paladin is always a very strong option. Paladin is a strong base class, so there are no really wrong answers, here.
You can absolutely stick with paladin and be fine, I maybe didn't emphasize that enough. the level 18 aura expansion is particularly nice if you think your campaign will last that long, and every oath has an impressive capstone.
As for clensing touch, it isn't bad, but in most campaigns spellcasters in general are a pretty small minority of the enemies you face, and other party members can probably handle antimagic utility when you do encounter them. And the aoe save bonus from aura of protection is already going to swing encounters vs. Enemy casters in your party's favor, so you're already contributing a lot to those fights, it's not a situation you really need more help with.
The bigger problem with clensing touch is that, even when you are confronted with enemy spellcasyers, it just flat out doesn't work on a lot of the most dangerous spells. Banish? Force Cage? Disintigrate? Cleansing touch does nothing. Blast spells & battlefield control spells that don't have lingering effects or don't target specific creatures in general? Clensing touch doesn't help. Hold or Dominate? As a paladin you're probably the most attractive target for those spells, and if you're the one held or dominated then you don't get to use your action on cleansing touch. You can't use cleansing touch to end buff spells the enemy casts on themselves since the target has to be 'willing', and the DM might rule that the same restriction means it can't even be used to end a Dominate spell on an ally.
Meanwhile your full caster allies can deal with all of these threats via Counterspell or Dispel Magic, and again you're already handing out a big bonus to saves, so do you even need the extra help?
Honestly the use cases for cleansing touch are pretty narrow. When those cases come up it's absolutely good to have, if you get it you won't regret having it. But it's not something you really need to worry about passing up imo.
Level 10 definitely isn't too late to multiclass, but if you made it that far (with vengeance I personally tend to multi out after level 6), then you might as well stick it out at least to level 13.
Improved Divine Smite is a big deal, so you don't want to abandon it when you're only one level away. So you'll get level 11.
Paladins are famously ASI starved, as you need high scores in both weapon attack and charisma, and there are a great many very valuable feats for paladins (resilient con, inspiring leader, alert, sentinel, lucky, polearm master and/or great weapon master, fey touched, warcaster - especially if you do plan to multiclass), so you don't want to multi out when there's an asi only one level away, so you'll get level 12.
Level 13 is 4th level paladin spells. If you use all your slots for smiting, then you might be tempted to multi out, since you can get the same slots from sorcerer or bard plus a bunch of first level class features, but there are a few actual paladin spells that are really worth pucking up, the mist notable being 'Improved Find Steed' from Xanathar's guide. Your very own pegasus is a big big deal and unless your campaign consists exclusuvely of indoor or underground dungeon delving you do not want to pass that up. Dimension Door as an oath spell is also very good.
After level 13 though? If you're campaign is still ongoing then I would definitely look to multiclassing. Cleansing Touch is ok, but the soells you'd most want to end don't let you use your action to use it. Your 15th level oath feature is decent but not a must have imo. 16th level is another precious asi, but at level 13 that's still three levels away.
You don't have to multi out after level 13, you can just keep going with paladin. But yeah, personally I'd jump out then. Well, again, with vengeance I'd have jumped out at level 6, but assuming I'd stayed to 10, I'd keep going to 13. But after that, imo you'll get more from putting your remaining seven levels into warlock, sorcerer, or bard.
Keep in mind, though, that's just talking about multying out - leaving paladin & not coming back. If you were considering a dip, you could do that right now. You might be well served by a single level of hexblade or undeadlock now, then come back for paladin 11-13 before then either returning to warlock or jumping into bard or sorcerer.
I think one thing we should consider is the average length of a campaign. Dude's probably about to hit his expiration date, so while I agree with what you're saying, in a pragmatic sense what you and I are saying boils down to "it's too late to multi class for all intents and purposes."
In terms of level 20 builds for Paladin Warlock multiclassing, I find the 6 Paladin/14 Warlock to be a good balance. You pick up Extra Attack and bonus to saving throws from the Paladin side while still hitting the level 14 Warlock feature. The 3 Warlock spell slots are a nice bonus as well compared to only 2 if you go 11 Paladin/9 Warlock or a 10/10 split.
8 Paladin/ 12 Warlock is solid as well, granting you 5 ASIs and the level 7 Paladin feature while still hitting key Warlock requirements like 3 spell slots and the Lifedrinker Invocation.
Anything past 11 Paladin and I feel you might be better off just staying Paladin.
I agree, there are a lot of good choices and perfectly viable builds with this mix. I want 3rd level paladin spells, though. Not just for smites, but as a vengeance paladin, I would be able to cast Haste, which I have had my eyes on since I started. So going 9 levels of paladin is my "floor," I think.
Lifedrinker is really strong! I would love to get that passive constant +5 damage from having 20 Cha. It would be giving you your Cha modifier twice, into the damage! Once as your basic attack/damage modifier, then again as Lifedrinker. So a +10 to damage on every hit! But while Lifedrinker gives a constant +5, remember that Improved Divine Smite is 1d8 which is an average of 4.5 damage, so not far off. Also, Improved Divine Smite will crit, so 2d8 or 9 avg in that situation.
There are no really wrong builds or concepts in here. As with all things in 5e, if we get one thing, we lose something else. It just comes down to what we each value more.
I mostly think that anything in Paladin past level 7 is just gravy.
If I had a full choice I would do Paladin 7/ Warlock 13 personally as lifedrinker and the short rest smite slots will be nice.
This is a pretty good split. I might be tempted to do 8/12 for the extra ASI. I guess it depends what you want for the lvl 7 incarnum.
9th paladin level is 3rd level spells though. I think that's worth more than an ASI.
Also 11th level of warlock brings a 3rd pact slot of 5th level. That and a 6th level Mystic Arcanum make the 11th level of warlock very strong imo. I like paladin 9/ warlock 11 better than 11/9 the other way.
Life drinker at 12 is a must for me personally.
Just in terms of making your turns more fun, if you're willing to take a hit to damage I find that using smite spells more often than the regular divine smite can be more fun. It requires decent cha so your save DC is good, but the extra effects they can give I find more fun than doing more damage with divine smite. Smacking enemies around with thunderous, setting them on fire, blinding them etc. They can add some fun variety (while still offering damage too) as opposed to just the potent but straight forward amage from divine smites.
Level 10 definitely isn't too late to multiclass, but if you made it that far (with vengeance I personally tend to multi out after level 6), then you might as well stick it out at least to level 13.
Improved Divine Smite is a big deal, so you don't want to abandon it when you're only one level away. So you'll get level 11.
Paladins are famously ASI starved, as you need high scores in both weapon attack and charisma, and there are a great many very valuable feats for paladins (resilient con, inspiring leader, alert, sentinel, lucky, polearm master and/or great weapon master, fey touched, warcaster - especially if you do plan to multiclass), so you don't want to multi out when there's an asi only one level away, so you'll get level 12.
Level 13 is 4th level paladin spells. If you use all your slots for smiting, then you might be tempted to multi out, since you can get the same slots from sorcerer or bard plus a bunch of first level class features, but there are a few actual paladin spells that are really worth pucking up, the mist notable being 'Improved Find Steed' from Xanathar's guide. Your very own pegasus is a big big deal and unless your campaign consists exclusuvely of indoor or underground dungeon delving you do not want to pass that up. Dimension Door as an oath spell is also very good.
After level 13 though? If you're campaign is still ongoing then I would definitely look to multiclassing. Cleansing Touch is ok, but the soells you'd most want to end don't let you use your action to use it. Your 15th level oath feature is decent but not a must have imo. 16th level is another precious asi, but at level 13 that's still three levels away.
You don't have to multi out after level 13, you can just keep going with paladin. But yeah, personally I'd jump out then. Well, again, with vengeance I'd have jumped out at level 6, but assuming I'd stayed to 10, I'd keep going to 13. But after that, imo you'll get more from putting your remaining seven levels into warlock, sorcerer, or bard.
Keep in mind, though, that's just talking about multying out - leaving paladin & not coming back. If you were considering a dip, you could do that right now. You might be well served by a single level of hexblade or undeadlock now, then come back for paladin 11-13 before then either returning to warlock or jumping into bard or sorcerer.
Not saying you are wrong about any of it, since it's mostly opinion and subjective. But wanted to point out that Cleansing Touch can be exceptionally powerful. The ability to remove one spell from yourself or somebody else, no saving throw, no dispel check, no worries about how high a level the spell is, can be very powerful. Cleansing Touch can remove a debilitating 8th level spell from a party member, like it never happened.
I also would tend to mulit-class to something else, at an earlier point. But just pure paladin is always a very strong option. Paladin is a strong base class, so there are no really wrong answers, here.
You can absolutely stick with paladin and be fine, I maybe didn't emphasize that enough. the level 18 aura expansion is particularly nice if you think your campaign will last that long, and every oath has an impressive capstone.
As for clensing touch, it isn't bad, but in most campaigns spellcasters in general are a pretty small minority of the enemies you face, and other party members can probably handle antimagic utility when you do encounter them. And the aoe save bonus from aura of protection is already going to swing encounters vs. Enemy casters in your party's favor, so you're already contributing a lot to those fights, it's not a situation you really need more help with.
The bigger problem with clensing touch is that, even when you are confronted with enemy spellcasyers, it just flat out doesn't work on a lot of the most dangerous spells. Banish? Force Cage? Disintigrate? Cleansing touch does nothing. Blast spells & battlefield control spells that don't have lingering effects or don't target specific creatures in general? Clensing touch doesn't help. Hold or Dominate? As a paladin you're probably the most attractive target for those spells, and if you're the one held or dominated then you don't get to use your action on cleansing touch. You can't use cleansing touch to end buff spells the enemy casts on themselves since the target has to be 'willing', and the DM might rule that the same restriction means it can't even be used to end a Dominate spell on an ally.
Meanwhile your full caster allies can deal with all of these threats via Counterspell or Dispel Magic, and again you're already handing out a big bonus to saves, so do you even need the extra help?
Honestly the use cases for cleansing touch are pretty narrow. When those cases come up it's absolutely good to have, if you get it you won't regret having it. But it's not something you really need to worry about passing up imo.
I think one thing we should consider is the average length of a campaign. Dude's probably about to hit his expiration date, so while I agree with what you're saying, in a pragmatic sense what you and I are saying boils down to "it's too late to multi class for all intents and purposes."
My Paladin is only level 6 at the moment, but this has been very helpful. Thanks.