Hello! I've been playing this character for a while, but I'm struggling to figure out ways to really combine abilities to be as effective as I'd like in combat. I know it's an unusual build that's partly for flavor, not fully optimized, but I think it could still work better than what I've been able to figure out.
I'm playing a tabaxi dex focused paladin, oath of open seas multiclassed with a swashbuckler rogue. Currently Level 4 Paladin/Level 3 Rogue. Mostly using 2014 rules. Planning to keep going with paladin levels. Str 8, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 15. Main weapon is a +1 rapier, thought I've also got a whip and heavy crossbow. Also have a +2 shield and chain shirt. Dueling fighting style. I originally took Sentinel as a feat, but a few sessions ago the DM decided to include a homebrew thing from Pointy Hat called Battlefield Actions and get rid of opportunity attacks, so I asked if I could changes feats. I went for Fighting Style: Protection, but I'm not sure that was the best choice.
The other players in the part are a cleric, sorcerer, and bard.
I think I'm mainly struggling to figure out what role to fill. Should I be more of a tank/defender type or a striker? Part of me wants to rush to enemies to keep them from getting to my squishier companions, but some abilities (like Protection or Channel Divinity: Marine Layer) seem to work better if I'm really close to my allies. Plus if I'm up close with enemies, I get in the way of Fireball and other AoE spells.
Any tips or suggestions on how to use the mix of abilities and such in combat? Especially how to make Marine Layer more viable in more situations. Like I said, I know the combo of subclasses and such I picked make that difficult, but I like the flavor it adds to the character (sort of a chaotic good swashbuckler who is a little more flexible morally, but is focused on fighting for freedom/against oppression).
Yes, you should probably be tanking. Now, if the cleric is a tankier sort, or the bard is a swords bard, you can probably get away with swashbuckler hit and run tactics. But otherwise you should be trying to keep the bad guys away from your friends.
Protection fighting style is rarely useful. Unless you often have an ally right next to you while you’re in melee. I’d instead look for a cha 1/2 feat to round up that 15 cha. Fey touched can be great for some extra mobility — though you’ll get misty step as a domain spell, still a free use leaves you another spell slot for smiting. Telekinetic can help you pull enemies closer to you, or away from allies. Or even just the asi and get your dex to 20 — might be the best choice overall as it will boost your to hit, damage, initiative, AC, dex saves and a bunch of skills.
Why a chain shirt? With an 18 dex, or 20 if you take that asi, go studded leather and you’ll have a higher AC.
Swap the xbow for a longbow. Next level you’ll get 2 attacks, but with a xbow you can only shoot once without a feat longbow will let you take both attacks.
Marine layer seems like it’s going to be annoying. Your allies will be just as affected by it as enemies if you’re trying to use it in combat. It seems more like an out of combat power to help you sneaking around.
Im guessing you know this, but by RAW, you shouldn’t have been able to multiclass, as paladins need a 13 str. Obviously, if your DM is ok with it, that’s all that matters.
The cleric is an Aasimar Grave Domain cleric with an AC of 17 and 52 HP, so somewhat tanky? I think. I've been playing for a couple of years, but haven't dug super deep into everything, and we were all pretty new to D&D when we started.
Yeah, I think I was trying to stick to something kind of thematically similar to Sentinel with Protection, but having to be so close to allies doesn't seem that helpful. Would something that lets me affect enemy motion be more helpful in tanking?
I started with the chain shirt before I got an asi to dex and just haven't gotten around to changing it out, since that level up was only a few sessions ago.
Thanks for the tip on bows!
I'm wondering how Faerie Fire would work with Marine Layer, if our bard would be willing to learn it or my DM will let me swap feats. Probably wouldn't help if my allies are within the fog, but if they're outside of the fog and enemies are outlined in light, seems like allies wouldn't have disadvantage trying to hit? Though would the light from Faerie Fire also negate the fog making it heavily obscured for the enemies too?
Yeah, the DM let me ignore RAW for multiclassing since I was doing a dex build.
The Battlefield Actions themselves are fine but I can see one major flaw in the video, he recommends removing Opportunity Attacks and then never addresses how this weakens the front-liner or tank gameplay. I'd ask if the DM is open to a different method and I think this is simple and helps fix a lot of the issue you probably have from losing sentinel. Instead of removing Opportunity Attacks, change it so you can only use Opportunity Attacks against a creature that is the same size as you, or 1 size larger or smaller. Ultimately doing something like removing Opportunity Attacks from players needs a counter balance, in this case I think removing all Opportunity Attacks is bad however for bosses that use these Battlefield Actions, them being able to use Opportunity Attacks is also bad since it is forcing you to flee, thus this opportunity attacks within 1 size difference I think is a better solution.
For same sized BBEGs, these can implement teleportation, invisibility and other tricks to avoid Opportunity Attacks, summon minors or can just use a Battlefield Action that prevents them from using their Reaction as you are forced to flee from the spot you are standing in.
== Past this... looking at your character ==
If multiclassing from Paladin, I would generally advise waiting until level 5/6 unless it's to pick up Hexblade (2014) or Pact of the Blade (2024) from Warlock (for a CHA based Paladin). This is since Extra Attack and Aura of Protection are key abilities for Paladin.
For a DEX based paladin, I would normally say you'd want to be an "off-tank" or secondary tank of sorts, you stand next to/behind a primary tank and catch things that get past the main. The issue with Paladin is few other classes really fulfil that primary tank role. If you had a Barbarian or STR based fighter, they are good at it, also War Cleric and Circle of the Moon Druid is too but else wise there is not much that really wants to be on the front lines like that. In this case, I would say that despite having a Cleric, you should be fulfilling the main tank role and that Protection is the wrong choice. If the Cleric or somebody else (like a Melee Ranger, Monk or Valor/Swords Bard) is constantly near front lines, then it might be justifiable but really you want to create a space between yourself and the back line casters if possible.
I think you would be better using Marine Layer as an aid to Stealth, rather than in combat, I would say Fury of the Tides is your combat Channel Divinity, the Push+potential damage makes it clearly more usable in battle, push is always good for a tank, since "zoning" is the goal of a tank, you want to lock down an area. I am not familiar with . I would only use Marine Layer in combat when the party is ambushing from somewhere that you have Terrain Advantage, for example, stood on top of a cliff and shooting 30 foot down on to some Orcs camped at the bottom of the cliff.
At level 7, you should have gotten up to Half-Plate already, Chain Shirt is a weak option by this point of the game and with +4 Dexterity modifier, it would be beaten by Studded Leather. Until you get to a +5 modifier, Half-Plate is easily the best option, at a +5 modifier Studded Leather and Half-Plate would have the same AC but Studded Leather doesn't give disadvantage on stealth.
== My advice from where you are ==
a) Talk to the DM about reintroducing Opportunity Attacks but with the size limit restrictions I mentioned above
b) if the DM is against that, request if they can give your character something else to make up for the Lost power your character has had from losing opportunity attacks, Tanks are meant to zone and losing opportunity attacks greatly reduces the ability to do that.
c) See if the DM would let you change that Feat into an ASI, take +2 Dexterity Score, to get the +5 Dexterity Modifier
d) Switch to a better armour, If you get the +5 Dexterity, go for Studded Leather
e) On next level-ups get Paladin 5, 6 and then Rogue 4. With Rogue 4 choose a Charisma Half Feat.
f) use Fury of the Tides in combat, not Marine Layer, unless you and the party have some massive ranged combat advantage like being on top of a cliff.
Hello! I've been playing this character for a while, but I'm struggling to figure out ways to really combine abilities to be as effective as I'd like in combat. I know it's an unusual build that's partly for flavor, not fully optimized, but I think it could still work better than what I've been able to figure out.
I'm playing a tabaxi dex focused paladin, oath of open seas multiclassed with a swashbuckler rogue. Currently Level 4 Paladin/Level 3 Rogue. Mostly using 2014 rules. Planning to keep going with paladin levels. Str 8, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 15. Main weapon is a +1 rapier, thought I've also got a whip and heavy crossbow. Also have a +2 shield and chain shirt. Dueling fighting style. I originally took Sentinel as a feat, but a few sessions ago the DM decided to include a homebrew thing from Pointy Hat called Battlefield Actions and get rid of opportunity attacks, so I asked if I could changes feats. I went for Fighting Style: Protection, but I'm not sure that was the best choice.
The other players in the part are a cleric, sorcerer, and bard.
I think I'm mainly struggling to figure out what role to fill. Should I be more of a tank/defender type or a striker? Part of me wants to rush to enemies to keep them from getting to my squishier companions, but some abilities (like Protection or Channel Divinity: Marine Layer) seem to work better if I'm really close to my allies. Plus if I'm up close with enemies, I get in the way of Fireball and other AoE spells.
Any tips or suggestions on how to use the mix of abilities and such in combat? Especially how to make Marine Layer more viable in more situations. Like I said, I know the combo of subclasses and such I picked make that difficult, but I like the flavor it adds to the character (sort of a chaotic good swashbuckler who is a little more flexible morally, but is focused on fighting for freedom/against oppression).
Thanks!
Yes, you should probably be tanking. Now, if the cleric is a tankier sort, or the bard is a swords bard, you can probably get away with swashbuckler hit and run tactics. But otherwise you should be trying to keep the bad guys away from your friends.
Protection fighting style is rarely useful. Unless you often have an ally right next to you while you’re in melee. I’d instead look for a cha 1/2 feat to round up that 15 cha. Fey touched can be great for some extra mobility — though you’ll get misty step as a domain spell, still a free use leaves you another spell slot for smiting. Telekinetic can help you pull enemies closer to you, or away from allies. Or even just the asi and get your dex to 20 — might be the best choice overall as it will boost your to hit, damage, initiative, AC, dex saves and a bunch of skills.
Why a chain shirt? With an 18 dex, or 20 if you take that asi, go studded leather and you’ll have a higher AC.
Swap the xbow for a longbow. Next level you’ll get 2 attacks, but with a xbow you can only shoot once without a feat longbow will let you take both attacks.
Marine layer seems like it’s going to be annoying. Your allies will be just as affected by it as enemies if you’re trying to use it in combat. It seems more like an out of combat power to help you sneaking around.
Im guessing you know this, but by RAW, you shouldn’t have been able to multiclass, as paladins need a 13 str. Obviously, if your DM is ok with it, that’s all that matters.
The cleric is an Aasimar Grave Domain cleric with an AC of 17 and 52 HP, so somewhat tanky? I think. I've been playing for a couple of years, but haven't dug super deep into everything, and we were all pretty new to D&D when we started.
Yeah, I think I was trying to stick to something kind of thematically similar to Sentinel with Protection, but having to be so close to allies doesn't seem that helpful. Would something that lets me affect enemy motion be more helpful in tanking?
I started with the chain shirt before I got an asi to dex and just haven't gotten around to changing it out, since that level up was only a few sessions ago.
Thanks for the tip on bows!
I'm wondering how Faerie Fire would work with Marine Layer, if our bard would be willing to learn it or my DM will let me swap feats. Probably wouldn't help if my allies are within the fog, but if they're outside of the fog and enemies are outlined in light, seems like allies wouldn't have disadvantage trying to hit? Though would the light from Faerie Fire also negate the fog making it heavily obscured for the enemies too?
Yeah, the DM let me ignore RAW for multiclassing since I was doing a dex build.
So having found these "Battlefield Actions": Pointy Hat's Youtube Video / Google Doc
The Battlefield Actions themselves are fine but I can see one major flaw in the video, he recommends removing Opportunity Attacks and then never addresses how this weakens the front-liner or tank gameplay. I'd ask if the DM is open to a different method and I think this is simple and helps fix a lot of the issue you probably have from losing sentinel. Instead of removing Opportunity Attacks, change it so you can only use Opportunity Attacks against a creature that is the same size as you, or 1 size larger or smaller. Ultimately doing something like removing Opportunity Attacks from players needs a counter balance, in this case I think removing all Opportunity Attacks is bad however for bosses that use these Battlefield Actions, them being able to use Opportunity Attacks is also bad since it is forcing you to flee, thus this opportunity attacks within 1 size difference I think is a better solution.
For same sized BBEGs, these can implement teleportation, invisibility and other tricks to avoid Opportunity Attacks, summon minors or can just use a Battlefield Action that prevents them from using their Reaction as you are forced to flee from the spot you are standing in.
== Past this... looking at your character ==
If multiclassing from Paladin, I would generally advise waiting until level 5/6 unless it's to pick up Hexblade (2014) or Pact of the Blade (2024) from Warlock (for a CHA based Paladin). This is since Extra Attack and Aura of Protection are key abilities for Paladin.
For a DEX based paladin, I would normally say you'd want to be an "off-tank" or secondary tank of sorts, you stand next to/behind a primary tank and catch things that get past the main. The issue with Paladin is few other classes really fulfil that primary tank role. If you had a Barbarian or STR based fighter, they are good at it, also War Cleric and Circle of the Moon Druid is too but else wise there is not much that really wants to be on the front lines like that. In this case, I would say that despite having a Cleric, you should be fulfilling the main tank role and that Protection is the wrong choice. If the Cleric or somebody else (like a Melee Ranger, Monk or Valor/Swords Bard) is constantly near front lines, then it might be justifiable but really you want to create a space between yourself and the back line casters if possible.
I think you would be better using Marine Layer as an aid to Stealth, rather than in combat, I would say Fury of the Tides is your combat Channel Divinity, the Push+potential damage makes it clearly more usable in battle, push is always good for a tank, since "zoning" is the goal of a tank, you want to lock down an area. I am not familiar with . I would only use Marine Layer in combat when the party is ambushing from somewhere that you have Terrain Advantage, for example, stood on top of a cliff and shooting 30 foot down on to some Orcs camped at the bottom of the cliff.
At level 7, you should have gotten up to Half-Plate already, Chain Shirt is a weak option by this point of the game and with +4 Dexterity modifier, it would be beaten by Studded Leather. Until you get to a +5 modifier, Half-Plate is easily the best option, at a +5 modifier Studded Leather and Half-Plate would have the same AC but Studded Leather doesn't give disadvantage on stealth.
== My advice from where you are ==
a) Talk to the DM about reintroducing Opportunity Attacks but with the size limit restrictions I mentioned above
b) if the DM is against that, request if they can give your character something else to make up for the Lost power your character has had from losing opportunity attacks, Tanks are meant to zone and losing opportunity attacks greatly reduces the ability to do that.
c) See if the DM would let you change that Feat into an ASI, take +2 Dexterity Score, to get the +5 Dexterity Modifier
d) Switch to a better armour, If you get the +5 Dexterity, go for Studded Leather
e) On next level-ups get Paladin 5, 6 and then Rogue 4. With Rogue 4 choose a Charisma Half Feat.
f) use Fury of the Tides in combat, not Marine Layer, unless you and the party have some massive ranged combat advantage like being on top of a cliff.