Cross posting this in Fighter and Warlock class forums.
OK...Sorry for length. Starting a COS campaign and one player dropped so I am taking one for the team. I have a backstory that I don't want to change that originally had me as a Fiend Pact Warlock. I still need to be a warlock (at least one level). I am a Fallen Assimar (+2 cha, +1 str) and that can't change. We are using a point buy for abilities. The other two party members are a Light Cleric that wants to melee some and an Archer Ranger. The Ranger may take a fighter dip, I think I talked him out of a three level fighter dip since we will end the campaign at 9 or 10 probably.
So here is what I need help with. We don't have a high cha member to be the face. It falls to me (np with being the face since my main is a Lore Bard). I will also be the main front line fighter/tank.
First option is to go full hexblade. Looks fun, some good damage but probably a bit squishy for front line. Ac may max out at around 18-20. Can I survive? We may be able to get a few henchmen/fighter NPC's down the road.
Second is to go 1 level dip in Warlock and the Pally. It has to be a Pally subclass that can take being a bit Nuetral or who am I kidding...Evil. Oathbreaker is my first thought but Aura of Hate would be bad in this adventure.
Third is one level in Warlock and the rest in Fighter. The only subclass that interests me is the Echo Knight. Problem with Pally and Fighter is if I use pact weapon, PAM and GWM are out due to no 2-hander. I could still Sentinel if I forgo some ASI's for a feat. One trick is use a 1-hand weapon that is versatile.
Shield would def help my AC so a one hander isn't bad. High Cha will give me a good buff to Eldritch blast if I use it. I don't need to be optimized but magic will be scarce. All of the party and the DM have always used a Harn setting which is low to no magic so I am not expecting a lot of magic items. My main goal is to have fun and part of having fun is not getting your butt kicked in every tough fight. This is the first game I have played in years literally that wasn't an one or two adventure shot. I have been playing a Bard since 2E, which started as a Dragon magazine Illusionist mish mash and I have evolved him to 4e and now 5e which is great because a 2e bard sucked.
So I am turning to you guys for some expertise and guidance. Thanks in advance.
If you are the tank, you really want that shield, so don’t worry too much about two-handed weapons. Also, there’s a bit of a loophole there, if you take pact of the blade/hexblade, any weapon you summon can be your pact weapon, so you can use a two-handed weapon. That said, you’ll want those two points of AC if you’re the tank and should probably go sword and board. Straight hexblade is a pretty solid option, not great at tanking, but not terrible. I’d suggest focusing your invocations on melee abilities instead of Eldritch blast stuff. 5e rewards specialists more than generalists, imo — better to be very good at one thing over pretty good at a lot of things. (Also why I’m not a huge fan of multi classing). If this is your first 5e character, I’d really suggest just single class. They are quite effective, and it will help you understand the trade offs you are making by giving up higher level, more powerful abilities in exchange for more low level stuff, not to mention ASIs which are based on class level, not character level, so multi classing delays them
As for the pally angle. There are no alignment restrictions in this edition, so any oath can work, some, like devotion, might be harder to pull of while evil, but aren’t necessarily impossible. Paladins make superb tanks, and since cha is an important stat, you can still be the face. Starting in pally, then switching to or dipping into warlock would give you the bonus of having heavy armor proficiency, which would be very helpful for tanking. You can cast in armor if you are proficient in the armor in this edition. (Starting warlock and dipping into pally does not give you heavy armor, however). And paladin/warlock is a popular combo, since you regain spell slots (aka paladin smites) on a short rest, and both have nice cha based abilities. Oathbreaker, by RAW is a DM optional variant, requires you to be 3rd level, and doesn’t do a lot for helping allies (some, but not as much as other oaths), while the other paladins generally are really good at buffing allies. Oathbreaker is really designed to be an NPC leading a group of fiends or undead, not someone running with other PCs.
Be careful with feats like GWM and a versatile weapon, the second bullet only works if the weapon is heavy, and there aren’t heavy, versatile weapons. Also, if you’re tanking, I’d focus more on sentinel, and ASIs (cha, obviously, but con will be great, also) maybe tough or durable.
You can PAM one handed if you use a spear or quarterstaff, just FYI.
If you are the tank, you really want that shield, so don’t worry too much about two-handed weapons. Also, there’s a bit of a loophole there, if you take pact of the blade/hexblade, any weapon you summon can be your pact weapon, so you can use a two-handed weapon. That said, you’ll want those two points of AC if you’re the tank and should probably go sword and board. Straight hexblade is a pretty solid option, not great at tanking, but not terrible. I’d suggest focusing your invocations on melee abilities instead of Eldritch blast stuff. 5e rewards specialists more than generalists, imo — better to be very good at one thing over pretty good at a lot of things. (Also why I’m not a huge fan of multi classing). If this is your first 5e character, I’d really suggest just single class. They are quite effective, and it will help you understand the trade offs you are making by giving up higher level, more powerful abilities in exchange for more low level stuff, not to mention ASIs which are based on class level, not character level, so multi classing delays them
As for the pally angle. There are no alignment restrictions in this edition, so any oath can work, some, like devotion, might be harder to pull of while evil, but aren’t necessarily impossible. Paladins make superb tanks, and since cha is an important stat, you can still be the face. Starting in pally, then switching to or dipping into warlock would give you the bonus of having heavy armor proficiency, which would be very helpful for tanking. You can cast in armor if you are proficient in the armor in this edition. (Starting warlock and dipping into pally does not give you heavy armor, however). And paladin/warlock is a popular combo, since you regain spell slots (aka paladin smites) on a short rest, and both have nice cha based abilities. Oathbreaker, by RAW is a DM optional variant, requires you to be 3rd level, and doesn’t do a lot for helping allies (some, but not as much as other oaths), while the other paladins generally are really good at buffing allies. Oathbreaker is really designed to be an NPC leading a group of fiends or undead, not someone running with other PCs.
Be careful with feats like GWM and a versatile weapon, the second bullet only works if the weapon is heavy, and there aren’t heavy, versatile weapons. Also, if you’re tanking, I’d focus more on sentinel, and ASIs (cha, obviously, but con will be great, also) maybe tough or durable.
You can PAM one handed if you use a spear or quarterstaff, just FYI.
I hope that helped.
Definitely helped. I think shield will be important like you said. Getting the smites on a short rest sounds good too. I'll put some work into it. Thanks!
One other thing. Some DMs like to mess with paladin/warlocks by having the warlock patron make demands of the character that violate the paladin oaths. Some DMs don’t care either way and don’t even really enforce either oaths or make much use of patrons. You might want to check with your DM on their feelings about those mechanics.
You got some tough stuff going. First level warlock isn't ideal due to the lack of heavy armor. For a reasonable front line AC you're going to need at least a 14 dexterity for medium armor (light armor would require even more), and on top of that you need at least a 13 strength to multiclass. You also want a good charisma for paladin features, and need a decent constitution for HP and concentration saves. That is /a lot/ of demands on your stats. You still need to be first level warlock, but does it need to be pact of fiend? *checks op again* OK, good, you can do hexblade, that helps some.
Hex 1 into Paladin works alright for a tank. Arguably paladin 1, then hex 1, then back to paladin works better, but we work with what we've got. As a Fallen Aasimar in point buy you can pick up:
Str: 13 (to multiclass) Dex: 14 (for medium armor) Con: 14 (really the bare minimum for a melee spellcaster) Cha: 16 (standard starting attack stat)
That leaves 2 point buy points left over. With this you can raise one of intelligence or wisdom to a 10. Avoiding the Wisdom penalty is more important for perception and common saving throws, but it's a small enough difference that you could raise intelligence instead if you just don't want to start with an intelligence penalty for role play reasons. Alternatively, you could leave both Int and Wis at 8 and instead raise constitution to 15 if you intend to pick up resilient: con (which is good, but you kind of need war caster, and if you already have that I'm not sure res:con is worth the additional asi), or you could raise starting Charisma to 17. There are no good half-charisma feats for you to round that off right now, but there were several very good half charisma feats in a recent unearthed arcana playtest document, some of which may work their way into the Tasha's book coming out later this year, so you might start with the higher odd charisma now on the bet that there will be something good for you to round it off with later.
Regardless, always wear the heaviest medium armor you can get your hands on, grab a shield,, pick up the defense fighting style when you reach paladin 2 to help with your AC, and make sure the Shield spell is one of your Hexblade spells at first level, and AC will be ok. Just be aware that you need to take War Caster as your first ASI so that you can actually cast the Shield spell while wielding a weapon and shield, so that's your first ASI, which will delay your charisma progression a bit and will probably mean the campaign will wrap up before you get to max it out. The benefits of being able to cast Shield, having advantage on concentration saves, and being able to cast booming blade as an opportunity attack (make sure it's one of your warlock cantrips) make it worth that delay, though. Your other warlock cantrip should probably be a fallback ranged attack of some kind, probably eldritch blast, but if you want to take something else, a 14 dex is enough to use bows or crossbows for that purpose.
If you're looking for an ethically compromised paladin, there are a few oaths to choose from:
- Oathbreaker: cool as heck, pretty strong, fantastic cha synergy with hexblade. Unfortunately, as you point out, it's a bit of a liability in Barovia. But while that's a mechanical detriment, it can be a narrative strength, because with a slight twist it could perfectly fit a 'cursed warrior' akin to Simon Belmont or Guts, a soldier marked by a fell power that strengthens them, but also draws creatures of darkness to them and empowers those dark creatures that hunt them and their allies. If you play oathbreaker as a cursed paladin instead of an evil paladin, then your fallen aasimar nature could also be a reflection of the same curse - or might even be the cause of it. Imagine a fallen aasimar oathbreaker who doesn't have all these dark powers because they turned from the light, but rather because their celestial patron did, falling from grace and becoming a demon or devil, corrupting the holy bond you draw your powers from, and now you hunt the creatures of the night even as they hunt you, hoping to find your patron and either redeem them (becoming a protector aasimar/devotion paladin) or slay them (becoming a scourge aasimar/vengeance paladin). I've actually played this character once before, and they're actually pretty fantastic. Does require your DM to be ok with some custom reflavoring, and your allies to be ok with your aura buffing the enemies right as your party is reaching the climax of the campaign, though. The oathbreaker aura does kind of want extra attacks where possible, so you might take pole arm master instead of war caster. Up to you. If you do go for PAM then a one handed spear or quarterstaff will let you use the feat while still carrying a shield and benefiting from Hex Warrior.
- Crown: in Sword Coast adventurer's guid, same as booming blade. Often overlooked due to some weaker features, but imo the oath spell list makes up for it, especially for tanking paladins, with Warding Bond as a second level spell (paladin level 5), and, especially, Spirit Guardians as a third level spell (paladin level 9). While level 9 paladin, level 10 with the warlock dip, is a long long time to wait, Spirit Guardians really is worth the investment. Or it would be, rather, if you didn't already have a cleric in the party who will probably be casting it all the time themselves by that level.
- Vengeance: Hexblade's Curse for increased crit range plus Vow of Enmity for advantage plus Divine Smite for double smite dice when you do crit all stacks together remarkably well. If you want to do damage with a hexadin, and don't want to take oathbreaker, then this is the way. A strong oath spell list doesn't hurt either. This build *really* wants polearm master, though, for more attacks to smite on, which probably means dropping war caster since you can only barely kind of justify one asi given to a feat before you start raising charisma. You don't want war caster as much here anyway, though, as your spell slots should mostly be going to smites, not Shield or concentration spells.
- Conquest: my favorite, though there are a number of fear immune or resistant enemies in the campaign that cut into its gimmick somewhat. A number of animals that would normally be quite vulnerable to frighten, including wolves and dire wolves, can be flat immune. But there are still times where frighten can be effective - zombies and werewolves are generally quite vulnerable, and vampire spawn have decent wisdom saves but are otherwise subject to the effect. I could get into a whole thing on Conquerors, and will if you ask me to, but if you're curious I recommend googling 'giantitp wall of fear conquest paladin' and that should point you to a decent build guide & discussion thread on another forum. The main gist is that this is a paladin that focuses on tanking through aoe frighten CCs, which works especially well with your racial ability, but does mean spreading your spell slots out throughout the adventuring day on concentration spells, so you don't get to stockpile as many slots for smiting or Shielding as other paladins do. Shield is still an important spell for you, and concentration is way important, so definitely take War Caster if you go this route. They also get spiritual weapon as a second level spell (paladin level 5) which is a nice, slot efficient damage boost to pull out when you do need that extra damage or when enemies are immune or resistant to frighten.
If I were in your shoes, I'd ask the DM if I could go for that cursed oathbreaker gimmick, and play the character as an out and out lawful good hero despite the dark curse upon them, and further ask the dm if they could work my fallen celestial patron into the campaign somewhere, maybe after it fell, it found its way to barovia and now serves strahd as a powerful minion?
If the DM wasn't up for that, any of the others is fine.
If you're playing a Warlock then Charisma really should be your highest stat, starting at 16. Since the adventure doesn't go beyond level 9 or 10 there is also no need for you to raise it beyond that should you want to focus on feats or raising another ability.
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Cross posting this in Fighter and Warlock class forums.
OK...Sorry for length. Starting a COS campaign and one player dropped so I am taking one for the team. I have a backstory that I don't want to change that originally had me as a Fiend Pact Warlock. I still need to be a warlock (at least one level). I am a Fallen Assimar (+2 cha, +1 str) and that can't change. We are using a point buy for abilities. The other two party members are a Light Cleric that wants to melee some and an Archer Ranger. The Ranger may take a fighter dip, I think I talked him out of a three level fighter dip since we will end the campaign at 9 or 10 probably.
So here is what I need help with. We don't have a high cha member to be the face. It falls to me (np with being the face since my main is a Lore Bard). I will also be the main front line fighter/tank.
First option is to go full hexblade. Looks fun, some good damage but probably a bit squishy for front line. Ac may max out at around 18-20. Can I survive? We may be able to get a few henchmen/fighter NPC's down the road.
Second is to go 1 level dip in Warlock and the Pally. It has to be a Pally subclass that can take being a bit Nuetral or who am I kidding...Evil. Oathbreaker is my first thought but Aura of Hate would be bad in this adventure.
Third is one level in Warlock and the rest in Fighter. The only subclass that interests me is the Echo Knight. Problem with Pally and Fighter is if I use pact weapon, PAM and GWM are out due to no 2-hander. I could still Sentinel if I forgo some ASI's for a feat. One trick is use a 1-hand weapon that is versatile.
Shield would def help my AC so a one hander isn't bad. High Cha will give me a good buff to Eldritch blast if I use it. I don't need to be optimized but magic will be scarce. All of the party and the DM have always used a Harn setting which is low to no magic so I am not expecting a lot of magic items. My main goal is to have fun and part of having fun is not getting your butt kicked in every tough fight. This is the first game I have played in years literally that wasn't an one or two adventure shot. I have been playing a Bard since 2E, which started as a Dragon magazine Illusionist mish mash and I have evolved him to 4e and now 5e which is great because a 2e bard sucked.
So I am turning to you guys for some expertise and guidance. Thanks in advance.
If you are the tank, you really want that shield, so don’t worry too much about two-handed weapons.
Also, there’s a bit of a loophole there, if you take pact of the blade/hexblade, any weapon you summon can be your pact weapon, so you can use a two-handed weapon. That said, you’ll want those two points of AC if you’re the tank and should probably go sword and board. Straight hexblade is a pretty solid option, not great at tanking, but not terrible. I’d suggest focusing your invocations on melee abilities instead of Eldritch blast stuff. 5e rewards specialists more than generalists, imo — better to be very good at one thing over pretty good at a lot of things. (Also why I’m not a huge fan of multi classing). If this is your first 5e character, I’d really suggest just single class. They are quite effective, and it will help you understand the trade offs you are making by giving up higher level, more powerful abilities in exchange for more low level stuff, not to mention ASIs which are based on class level, not character level, so multi classing delays them
As for the pally angle. There are no alignment restrictions in this edition, so any oath can work, some, like devotion, might be harder to pull of while evil, but aren’t necessarily impossible. Paladins make superb tanks, and since cha is an important stat, you can still be the face.
Starting in pally, then switching to or dipping into warlock would give you the bonus of having heavy armor proficiency, which would be very helpful for tanking. You can cast in armor if you are proficient in the armor in this edition. (Starting warlock and dipping into pally does not give you heavy armor, however). And paladin/warlock is a popular combo, since you regain spell slots (aka paladin smites) on a short rest, and both have nice cha based abilities.
Oathbreaker, by RAW is a DM optional variant, requires you to be 3rd level, and doesn’t do a lot for helping allies (some, but not as much as other oaths), while the other paladins generally are really good at buffing allies. Oathbreaker is really designed to be an NPC leading a group of fiends or undead, not someone running with other PCs.
Be careful with feats like GWM and a versatile weapon, the second bullet only works if the weapon is heavy, and there aren’t heavy, versatile weapons. Also, if you’re tanking, I’d focus more on sentinel, and ASIs (cha, obviously, but con will be great, also) maybe tough or durable.
You can PAM one handed if you use a spear or quarterstaff, just FYI.
I hope that helped.
Definitely helped. I think shield will be important like you said. Getting the smites on a short rest sounds good too. I'll put some work into it. Thanks!
One other thing. Some DMs like to mess with paladin/warlocks by having the warlock patron make demands of the character that violate the paladin oaths. Some DMs don’t care either way and don’t even really enforce either oaths or make much use of patrons. You might want to check with your DM on their feelings about those mechanics.
You got some tough stuff going. First level warlock isn't ideal due to the lack of heavy armor. For a reasonable front line AC you're going to need at least a 14 dexterity for medium armor (light armor would require even more), and on top of that you need at least a 13 strength to multiclass. You also want a good charisma for paladin features, and need a decent constitution for HP and concentration saves. That is /a lot/ of demands on your stats. You still need to be first level warlock, but does it need to be pact of fiend? *checks op again* OK, good, you can do hexblade, that helps some.
Hex 1 into Paladin works alright for a tank. Arguably paladin 1, then hex 1, then back to paladin works better, but we work with what we've got. As a Fallen Aasimar in point buy you can pick up:
Str: 13 (to multiclass)
Dex: 14 (for medium armor)
Con: 14 (really the bare minimum for a melee spellcaster)
Cha: 16 (standard starting attack stat)
That leaves 2 point buy points left over. With this you can raise one of intelligence or wisdom to a 10. Avoiding the Wisdom penalty is more important for perception and common saving throws, but it's a small enough difference that you could raise intelligence instead if you just don't want to start with an intelligence penalty for role play reasons. Alternatively, you could leave both Int and Wis at 8 and instead raise constitution to 15 if you intend to pick up resilient: con (which is good, but you kind of need war caster, and if you already have that I'm not sure res:con is worth the additional asi), or you could raise starting Charisma to 17. There are no good half-charisma feats for you to round that off right now, but there were several very good half charisma feats in a recent unearthed arcana playtest document, some of which may work their way into the Tasha's book coming out later this year, so you might start with the higher odd charisma now on the bet that there will be something good for you to round it off with later.
Regardless, always wear the heaviest medium armor you can get your hands on, grab a shield,, pick up the defense fighting style when you reach paladin 2 to help with your AC, and make sure the Shield spell is one of your Hexblade spells at first level, and AC will be ok. Just be aware that you need to take War Caster as your first ASI so that you can actually cast the Shield spell while wielding a weapon and shield, so that's your first ASI, which will delay your charisma progression a bit and will probably mean the campaign will wrap up before you get to max it out. The benefits of being able to cast Shield, having advantage on concentration saves, and being able to cast booming blade as an opportunity attack (make sure it's one of your warlock cantrips) make it worth that delay, though. Your other warlock cantrip should probably be a fallback ranged attack of some kind, probably eldritch blast, but if you want to take something else, a 14 dex is enough to use bows or crossbows for that purpose.
If you're looking for an ethically compromised paladin, there are a few oaths to choose from:
- Oathbreaker: cool as heck, pretty strong, fantastic cha synergy with hexblade. Unfortunately, as you point out, it's a bit of a liability in Barovia. But while that's a mechanical detriment, it can be a narrative strength, because with a slight twist it could perfectly fit a 'cursed warrior' akin to Simon Belmont or Guts, a soldier marked by a fell power that strengthens them, but also draws creatures of darkness to them and empowers those dark creatures that hunt them and their allies. If you play oathbreaker as a cursed paladin instead of an evil paladin, then your fallen aasimar nature could also be a reflection of the same curse - or might even be the cause of it. Imagine a fallen aasimar oathbreaker who doesn't have all these dark powers because they turned from the light, but rather because their celestial patron did, falling from grace and becoming a demon or devil, corrupting the holy bond you draw your powers from, and now you hunt the creatures of the night even as they hunt you, hoping to find your patron and either redeem them (becoming a protector aasimar/devotion paladin) or slay them (becoming a scourge aasimar/vengeance paladin). I've actually played this character once before, and they're actually pretty fantastic. Does require your DM to be ok with some custom reflavoring, and your allies to be ok with your aura buffing the enemies right as your party is reaching the climax of the campaign, though. The oathbreaker aura does kind of want extra attacks where possible, so you might take pole arm master instead of war caster. Up to you. If you do go for PAM then a one handed spear or quarterstaff will let you use the feat while still carrying a shield and benefiting from Hex Warrior.
- Crown: in Sword Coast adventurer's guid, same as booming blade. Often overlooked due to some weaker features, but imo the oath spell list makes up for it, especially for tanking paladins, with Warding Bond as a second level spell (paladin level 5), and, especially, Spirit Guardians as a third level spell (paladin level 9). While level 9 paladin, level 10 with the warlock dip, is a long long time to wait, Spirit Guardians really is worth the investment. Or it would be, rather, if you didn't already have a cleric in the party who will probably be casting it all the time themselves by that level.
- Vengeance: Hexblade's Curse for increased crit range plus Vow of Enmity for advantage plus Divine Smite for double smite dice when you do crit all stacks together remarkably well. If you want to do damage with a hexadin, and don't want to take oathbreaker, then this is the way. A strong oath spell list doesn't hurt either. This build *really* wants polearm master, though, for more attacks to smite on, which probably means dropping war caster since you can only barely kind of justify one asi given to a feat before you start raising charisma. You don't want war caster as much here anyway, though, as your spell slots should mostly be going to smites, not Shield or concentration spells.
- Conquest: my favorite, though there are a number of fear immune or resistant enemies in the campaign that cut into its gimmick somewhat. A number of animals that would normally be quite vulnerable to frighten, including wolves and dire wolves, can be flat immune. But there are still times where frighten can be effective - zombies and werewolves are generally quite vulnerable, and vampire spawn have decent wisdom saves but are otherwise subject to the effect. I could get into a whole thing on Conquerors, and will if you ask me to, but if you're curious I recommend googling 'giantitp wall of fear conquest paladin' and that should point you to a decent build guide & discussion thread on another forum. The main gist is that this is a paladin that focuses on tanking through aoe frighten CCs, which works especially well with your racial ability, but does mean spreading your spell slots out throughout the adventuring day on concentration spells, so you don't get to stockpile as many slots for smiting or Shielding as other paladins do. Shield is still an important spell for you, and concentration is way important, so definitely take War Caster if you go this route. They also get spiritual weapon as a second level spell (paladin level 5) which is a nice, slot efficient damage boost to pull out when you do need that extra damage or when enemies are immune or resistant to frighten.
If I were in your shoes, I'd ask the DM if I could go for that cursed oathbreaker gimmick, and play the character as an out and out lawful good hero despite the dark curse upon them, and further ask the dm if they could work my fallen celestial patron into the campaign somewhere, maybe after it fell, it found its way to barovia and now serves strahd as a powerful minion?
If the DM wasn't up for that, any of the others is fine.
Thanks for the replies. Fantastic story for the oathbreaker. Lots to think about.
If you're playing a Warlock then Charisma really should be your highest stat, starting at 16. Since the adventure doesn't go beyond level 9 or 10 there is also no need for you to raise it beyond that should you want to focus on feats or raising another ability.