I'm getting ready to start a campaign with a Vengeance paladin. This will by no means be an optimized build and while things can be discussed with the DM ahead of time to mold the story, for the most part, options will be chosen depending on how the story unfolds.
Here's where I'm stuck. When I originally thought out the character, I chose to go with a polearm. Now I'm second guessing that based on the character. I'm thinking of a couple of different options, all with axes of some form. Polearm would be a bardiche, GWM would be a greataxe etc. The one I like thematically is dual wielding axes. The problem is making it work. I don't want to force a square peg into a round hole necessarily but, since I'm still undecided, I'd like to see how others might go about achieving a dual wielding build for a vengeance paladin. I'm aware that polearms are more efficient. I'm also aware that bonus actions might be better used on other things. If the progression is too painful, I may simply start the character with a battleaxe and see how things go from there.
For reference, because of the backstory, the character is a custom race starting with mage initiate feat to get find familiar so a first level feat is off the board. If anyone wants more info on the backstory, I can certainly provide that.
The other two options as I mentioned are GWM with a greataxe and PAM with a bardiche but those are easy to figure out.
So I put it to you all. How would you build and progress a dual axe wielding vengeance paladin? Hand axes are OK to start with but I'd like to eventually get to a point where I was using battleaxes. This is a STR build and we will be rolling stats at some point.
Thanks in advance. I definitely put way too much thought into things and have an unhealthy need to have the characters meet the concepts I have in my head. I'm considering either a twelve step program or a support group. I'll take advice on that as well lol.
It can work, certainly. I don’t find a lot of uses for my bonus action. There’s the smite spells, but usually you’ll just want spend the slot to smite without the spell, so I wouldn’t worry too much about that. Start with hand axes, pick up dual wielder at level four and graduate to battle axes. Pallys don’t get access to the two weapon fighting style, but it’s not strictly necessary, just lets you add your ability damage to your off hand attack. Really, though, I’d see the off-hand attack as another chance to deliver a smite, so that extra 3-5 points won’t add up to very much extra damage. That said, you can get it with the fighting initiate feat (or a fighter dip). Depending on your str, either fighting initiate or the asi at level 8.
If I really wanted to build around dual wielding, I'd rely a lot more on hunter's mark instead of smites, and I'd only smite on non-overkill crits. I'd pick ASIs until I cap my main stat. If you end up with an odd stat from rolling, I'd take the opportunity to get one of the neat tasha's half feats. Granted, man, you're going on an uphill battle here since you don't get two-weapon fighting.
Talk it out with your DM and see if they'll allow you to take the fighting style regardless of being a pally, really drive home the point that it's a choice for flavor and roleplay. Sure ain't powergamey, that's for sure, otherwise everyone'd tell you to pick up PAM, then get GWM, and call it a day.
As has been pointed out, hunter's mark is going to be key with this build. Casting is a bonus action, and it adds to every attack you take so three attacks would be 6d6 + double your Strength modifier from 5th-level onward. And you can use those hits for Divine Smite, but that comes with its own drawbacks.
Constantly using Divine Smite means you won't have the spell slots for other things. And if you're more conservative with your spell slots, you'll need a free hand or focus for other spells. This means dropping or sheathing a weapon; which you can afford to do with two weapons out. That said, don't underestimate the utility of some of those bonus action spells. Three are "smite" spells; all of which have rider effects or cause even more damage over time.
It's doable, but you give up a lot to make it work. Just know what you're giving up.
Thanks everyone for the input. I talked at length wit my DM and he said what ever I pick, he will work with me. Conceptually, I want this character to just be fearsome. I thought dual wielding would really get that done. After considering the difficulties in getting this to come on line, I decided to go with polearms. We looked at some stuff and I'm content with the choice. He even gave me the ability to have a bardiche/halberd that converts to a battleaxe for close quarter fighting. It's just a flavor fluff way of not having to carry two separate weapons. Plus carrying a battleaxe is much easier than carrying something much longer.
Thanks for all the help. I'm still pretty new to DnD having never been through a full campaign before. Much appreciated.
Dual Wielding as a paladin is weaker in terms of damage output than great weapon fighting or pole arm fighting, provided your game uses feats. But that doesn't mean dual wielding is weak or bad. The basic benefits of dual wielding are good for paladins, as the base class is somewhat lacking in bonus action options. And while the base damage from dual wielding is low, paladin as a class has options to add damage to any hit via Divine Smite, and later to every hit via Improved divine smite. This in addition to the buffing options provided by oath of vengeance - though admittedly bonus action conflicts mean you'll need a fight to last longer than normal to see an advantage from stacking these abilities. The advantage on attacks against a chosen target CD in particular is nice when combined with dual wielding, as it improves crit chance, which interacts well with divine smite.
And paladin has heavy pressure on their stats, plus a lot of great utility feats to choose from, so it's not like ability score improvements that might otherwise have gone to great weapon master or pole arm master will be going to waste.
If you want to build an effective dual wielding vengeance paladin, there's nothing to tricky or complicated to making it work, whether in the build or in the playing of it. It's all pretty straight forward. Pick light weapons to taste, raise your weapon attack and charisma stats, then look to feats like inspiring leader, alert, lucky, war caster, resilient constitution, slasher, & so on. Take paladin at least to improved divine smite, then either keep with paladin or multiclass into any of the usual suspects - bard, fighter, sorcerer, or warlock - depending on your preference. There's no particular feat to take - you can take or leave the two weapon fighting feat, it's not great but it's not awful either. You don't have to worry about going out of your way to grab the dual wielding fighting style. If you happen to multiclass fighter anyway (say three levels of champion for the improved crit rate) then you might as well pick it up, but It doesn't do all that much for you so there's no need to force it into your build if it doesn't come naturally. You'll get at least as much use out of defense, interception, blind fighting, or even blessed warrior if nobody else in the party can cast guidance.
dual wielding works alright for offense oriented paladins on its own without requiring any extra moving parts, basically. Again, it's not 'optimal', not if feats are allowed anyway, but it's perfectly functional right out of the box.
Thanks to everyone for helping. I took a look at the situation and weighed the different angles of the situation. Part of the backstory involves the character obtaining a specific weapon with a name and everything ("Mercy's End" to be exact). In all honesty, it doesn't really matter what kind of weapon it is. Any kind can work. I also looked at what kind of image I had for the character in combat. What was that supposed to look like? I finally broke it down less specifically to wanting the character to be very fierce and scary to the enemy. I figured someone just wildly hacking and wailing on people with two axes would be terrifying. But I also can see someone with a halberd just slicing through people to get to the BBEG being pretty scary as well. When I then looked at how to implement the different styles, polearm seemed much easier. I don't need a feat to use it right off the bat and I can use my bonus action for whatever I want. As I looked at two weapons it really seemed like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Perhaps if I had used a feat at creation to take two weapon fighting style or dual wielder feat it would be easier but I can't as the character needs to take magic initiate for thematic purposes. Finally I looked at everything else and the final deal breaker came to the actual weapons. If I were to do the dual wielder, the end goal is two battleaxes, non light makes that impossible without the feat. Since I would have to start with different weapons, I can't use the specific weapon from the backstory as it wouldn't be the final weapon. I could certainly make things work with the DM to flavor things and force it in but, in the end, that just adds to the square peg feeling. In addition, I am now using one named weapon and one generic weapon. Kind of minimizes the cool factor to me.
I'll eventually use a two weapon character but, for this, the "right thing" for the character and story line I think is a halberd/bardiche. Now, I'm off to find pictures and stuff of exactly what it will look like since I'm way over the top, with details that no one will ever know about but myself and possibly the DM lol.
Thanks again for replying and helping. Having help from the community is really reassuring.
I'm getting ready to start a campaign with a Vengeance paladin. This will by no means be an optimized build and while things can be discussed with the DM ahead of time to mold the story, for the most part, options will be chosen depending on how the story unfolds.
Here's where I'm stuck. When I originally thought out the character, I chose to go with a polearm. Now I'm second guessing that based on the character. I'm thinking of a couple of different options, all with axes of some form. Polearm would be a bardiche, GWM would be a greataxe etc. The one I like thematically is dual wielding axes. The problem is making it work. I don't want to force a square peg into a round hole necessarily but, since I'm still undecided, I'd like to see how others might go about achieving a dual wielding build for a vengeance paladin. I'm aware that polearms are more efficient. I'm also aware that bonus actions might be better used on other things. If the progression is too painful, I may simply start the character with a battleaxe and see how things go from there.
For reference, because of the backstory, the character is a custom race starting with mage initiate feat to get find familiar so a first level feat is off the board. If anyone wants more info on the backstory, I can certainly provide that.
The other two options as I mentioned are GWM with a greataxe and PAM with a bardiche but those are easy to figure out.
So I put it to you all. How would you build and progress a dual axe wielding vengeance paladin? Hand axes are OK to start with but I'd like to eventually get to a point where I was using battleaxes. This is a STR build and we will be rolling stats at some point.
Thanks in advance. I definitely put way too much thought into things and have an unhealthy need to have the characters meet the concepts I have in my head. I'm considering either a twelve step program or a support group. I'll take advice on that as well lol.
It can work, certainly. I don’t find a lot of uses for my bonus action. There’s the smite spells, but usually you’ll just want spend the slot to smite without the spell, so I wouldn’t worry too much about that. Start with hand axes, pick up dual wielder at level four and graduate to battle axes.
Pallys don’t get access to the two weapon fighting style, but it’s not strictly necessary, just lets you add your ability damage to your off hand attack. Really, though, I’d see the off-hand attack as another chance to deliver a smite, so that extra 3-5 points won’t add up to very much extra damage. That said, you can get it with the fighting initiate feat (or a fighter dip). Depending on your str, either fighting initiate or the asi at level 8.
Thanks for the input. Weighing against polearm. I'll likely stick with that but wanted to consider the style on it's own.
If I really wanted to build around dual wielding, I'd rely a lot more on hunter's mark instead of smites, and I'd only smite on non-overkill crits. I'd pick ASIs until I cap my main stat. If you end up with an odd stat from rolling, I'd take the opportunity to get one of the neat tasha's half feats. Granted, man, you're going on an uphill battle here since you don't get two-weapon fighting.
Talk it out with your DM and see if they'll allow you to take the fighting style regardless of being a pally, really drive home the point that it's a choice for flavor and roleplay. Sure ain't powergamey, that's for sure, otherwise everyone'd tell you to pick up PAM, then get GWM, and call it a day.
As has been pointed out, hunter's mark is going to be key with this build. Casting is a bonus action, and it adds to every attack you take so three attacks would be 6d6 + double your Strength modifier from 5th-level onward. And you can use those hits for Divine Smite, but that comes with its own drawbacks.
Constantly using Divine Smite means you won't have the spell slots for other things. And if you're more conservative with your spell slots, you'll need a free hand or focus for other spells. This means dropping or sheathing a weapon; which you can afford to do with two weapons out. That said, don't underestimate the utility of some of those bonus action spells. Three are "smite" spells; all of which have rider effects or cause even more damage over time.
It's doable, but you give up a lot to make it work. Just know what you're giving up.
Thanks everyone for the input. I talked at length wit my DM and he said what ever I pick, he will work with me. Conceptually, I want this character to just be fearsome. I thought dual wielding would really get that done. After considering the difficulties in getting this to come on line, I decided to go with polearms. We looked at some stuff and I'm content with the choice. He even gave me the ability to have a bardiche/halberd that converts to a battleaxe for close quarter fighting. It's just a flavor fluff way of not having to carry two separate weapons. Plus carrying a battleaxe is much easier than carrying something much longer.
Thanks for all the help. I'm still pretty new to DnD having never been through a full campaign before. Much appreciated.
A halberd works fine in close quarters. Exactly the same as it does at reach. Only thing I can think of where that isn’t true is a lance.
Dual Wielding as a paladin is weaker in terms of damage output than great weapon fighting or pole arm fighting, provided your game uses feats. But that doesn't mean dual wielding is weak or bad. The basic benefits of dual wielding are good for paladins, as the base class is somewhat lacking in bonus action options. And while the base damage from dual wielding is low, paladin as a class has options to add damage to any hit via Divine Smite, and later to every hit via Improved divine smite. This in addition to the buffing options provided by oath of vengeance - though admittedly bonus action conflicts mean you'll need a fight to last longer than normal to see an advantage from stacking these abilities. The advantage on attacks against a chosen target CD in particular is nice when combined with dual wielding, as it improves crit chance, which interacts well with divine smite.
And paladin has heavy pressure on their stats, plus a lot of great utility feats to choose from, so it's not like ability score improvements that might otherwise have gone to great weapon master or pole arm master will be going to waste.
If you want to build an effective dual wielding vengeance paladin, there's nothing to tricky or complicated to making it work, whether in the build or in the playing of it. It's all pretty straight forward. Pick light weapons to taste, raise your weapon attack and charisma stats, then look to feats like inspiring leader, alert, lucky, war caster, resilient constitution, slasher, & so on. Take paladin at least to improved divine smite, then either keep with paladin or multiclass into any of the usual suspects - bard, fighter, sorcerer, or warlock - depending on your preference. There's no particular feat to take - you can take or leave the two weapon fighting feat, it's not great but it's not awful either. You don't have to worry about going out of your way to grab the dual wielding fighting style. If you happen to multiclass fighter anyway (say three levels of champion for the improved crit rate) then you might as well pick it up, but It doesn't do all that much for you so there's no need to force it into your build if it doesn't come naturally. You'll get at least as much use out of defense, interception, blind fighting, or even blessed warrior if nobody else in the party can cast guidance.
dual wielding works alright for offense oriented paladins on its own without requiring any extra moving parts, basically. Again, it's not 'optimal', not if feats are allowed anyway, but it's perfectly functional right out of the box.
Thanks to everyone for helping. I took a look at the situation and weighed the different angles of the situation. Part of the backstory involves the character obtaining a specific weapon with a name and everything ("Mercy's End" to be exact). In all honesty, it doesn't really matter what kind of weapon it is. Any kind can work. I also looked at what kind of image I had for the character in combat. What was that supposed to look like? I finally broke it down less specifically to wanting the character to be very fierce and scary to the enemy. I figured someone just wildly hacking and wailing on people with two axes would be terrifying. But I also can see someone with a halberd just slicing through people to get to the BBEG being pretty scary as well. When I then looked at how to implement the different styles, polearm seemed much easier. I don't need a feat to use it right off the bat and I can use my bonus action for whatever I want. As I looked at two weapons it really seemed like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Perhaps if I had used a feat at creation to take two weapon fighting style or dual wielder feat it would be easier but I can't as the character needs to take magic initiate for thematic purposes. Finally I looked at everything else and the final deal breaker came to the actual weapons. If I were to do the dual wielder, the end goal is two battleaxes, non light makes that impossible without the feat. Since I would have to start with different weapons, I can't use the specific weapon from the backstory as it wouldn't be the final weapon. I could certainly make things work with the DM to flavor things and force it in but, in the end, that just adds to the square peg feeling. In addition, I am now using one named weapon and one generic weapon. Kind of minimizes the cool factor to me.
I'll eventually use a two weapon character but, for this, the "right thing" for the character and story line I think is a halberd/bardiche. Now, I'm off to find pictures and stuff of exactly what it will look like since I'm way over the top, with details that no one will ever know about but myself and possibly the DM lol.
Thanks again for replying and helping. Having help from the community is really reassuring.