Will someone please explain to me why some folks think a spell like ensnaring strike won't allow both the ranger and beast companion to use its effects on a single cast when using the share spells ability at level 15?
Will someone please explain to me why some folks think a spell like ensnaring strike won't allow both the ranger and beast companion to use its effects on a single cast when using the share spells ability at level 15?
They probably didn't read the spell and incorrectly assumed the spell targeted the creature hit instead of self.
Will someone please explain to me why some folks think a spell like ensnaring strike won't allow both the ranger and beast companion to use its effects on a single cast when using the share spells ability at level 15?
They probably didn't read the spell and incorrectly assumed the spell targeted the creature hit instead of self.
True. Maybe. Not quite. What I have heard others say is something about the spells ends after the first attack hits, beast or ranger. But that is definitely not how the share spells works, the way I read it.
That would be a misreading - all self-target spells are written like that, but no-one gives the Paladin that sort of guff over sharing their spells with their steed.
The only real small catch is that if Concentration is dropped, both effects vanish, since Share Spells adds the companion as a target of the spell, it does not "cast" another spell. And I'm sure you were aware of that.
Not sure why a lot of DMs or people in general (taking from replies to my questions on some Discords and Forums) tend to rule TOO conservatively when it comes to Beast Masters.
I'm both hopeful and seeing a little less of this intentionally harsh ruling on ranger stuff little by little. It may just be me wanting to see it, but I think time and discord has helped, and Tasha's has helped with a bit of RAI, at least in terms of "power level" of an ability at a given level.
Will someone please explain to me why some folks think a spell like ensnaring strike won't allow both the ranger and beast companion to use its effects on a single cast when using the share spells ability at level 15?
They probably didn't read the spell and incorrectly assumed the spell targeted the creature hit instead of self.
True. Maybe. Not quite. What I have heard others say is something about the spells ends after the first attack hits, beast or ranger. But that is definitely not how the share spells works, the way I read it.
not only is that not how share spells works. that's an incorrect reading of how the spell works. The Spell continues and has to be concentrated on to continue to trap it's victims. The only limit is how many people can be affected by it while your holding the spell active. Share Spells with Ensnaring strike is basically the equivalent of Twinning a single target control spell onto two targets. it just happens that the delivery method is a little bit different.
I was just looking for advice on good spell combinations for Share Spells when I stumbled across this thread and I thought I'd weigh in since a lot of people don’t seem to understand how a target is defined. Check out this 2020 Dragon Talk video called Sage Advice: Targeting Revisited. (https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=289&v=xUOaQ_XY7wE&feature=youtu.be) You'll find that J Craw ambiguous states how a range of self doesn’t necessarily mean that one's self is the target. He elaborates later, around 14:20 in the video, that Booming Blade is an example of one such spell with a range of self that in fact targets another creature although it does indeed originate from one's self. This blew my mind when I first heard it. I have yet to find any major implications (aside from War Caster + Booming Blade still working) but it has changed how I look at targeting in 5E and suspect some AOE spell with a range of self might have an overlooked and interesting interaction with another targeting related effect somewhere in the rules. Anyway, Ensnaring Strike could be ruled to target self then a struck target or just a struck target. It`s pretty unclear imo, but I lean toward the latter RAW. So imo you're all wrong, but I`d let a player that is excited about using it with Share Spells sway me toward ruling the other way any day.
Objects can often be target's too. The definition of a target is unclear, but by allowing Booming Blade with War Caster's as a substitute for an opportunity attack, J Craw makes it clear that a spell`s range doesn’t provide an answer to questions regarding who/what is a spell`s target. "The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature." This ruling from J Craw indicates that Booming Blade does not target one's self although it has a range of self.
Objects can often be target's too. The definition of a target is unclear, but by allowing Booming Blade with War Caster's as a substitute for an opportunity attack, J Craw makes it clear that a spell`s range doesn’t provide an answer to questions regarding who/what is a spell`s target. "The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature."
Ok. I'm not understanding your input regarding the beast master ability though. The beast master ability has no such restriction as the twin spell ability, find steed(s) spell(s), and warcaster feat.
I'll outline a few important things regarding Share Spells.
Share Spells: Beginning at 15th level, when you cast a spell targeting yourself, you can also affect your beast companion with the spell if the beast is within 30 feet of you.
When you cast a spell means only at the time of casting.
Targeting yourself is unclear what constitutes being targeted but generally an effect, such as damage or forcing of a saving throw, seems to affect a target.
I`m saying that Ensnaring Strike`s compatability with Share Spells could be ruled either way because there is reasonable doubt toward either ruling. What constitutes a target in 5E is not defined in any clear or concise manner but J Craw did confirm that a range of self doesn't necessarily mean that one`s self is a target.
I'll outline a few important things regarding Share Spells.
Share Spells: Beginning at 15th level, when you cast a spell targeting yourself, you can also affect your beast companion with the spell if the beast is within 30 feet of you.
When you cast a spell means only at the time of casting.
Targeting yourself is unclear what constitutes being targeted but generally an effect, such as damage or forcing of a saving throw, seems to affect a target.
I`m saying that Ensnaring Strike`s compatability with Share Spells could be ruled either way because there is reasonable doubt toward either ruling. What constitutes a target in 5E is not defined in any clear or concise manner but J Craw did confirm that a range of self doesn't necessarily mean that one`s self is a target.
The reason I brought up War Caster is that J Craw`s confirmation of its continued compatability with Booming Blade is a good example. This highlights a spell that has a range of self but does not in fact target the self, only the struck creature.
first just like a "ranged attack with a weapon" is not "a ranged weapon attack" a spell that says "A spell targeting your self" is not the same as "a spell with a target of self." one is more specific than the other.
secondly, the fact that the caster now has an attack that is modified {adding a rider} means that they are the "one effected" so they may also affect their pet. The ambiguous part is the restrained creature. IMO The subject of the modified attack actually isn't a target of the spell, its a target of a creature of the modified attack.
Now booming blade doesn't actually modify an attack but self is the origin. It creates a effect that targets a hit from the attack as part of the casting. This sounds the same as Ensnaring strike but its only similar.
The problem is the bits JC never really out right defines. some confusing points are:
That every spell can have multiple categories of targets
[locations/areas/origin points] are sometimes not actually targets of the spell but rather a feature for defining how to target. Sometimes an location is a target though.
targets of targets may not actually be targets of the spell.
If a ranger casts a spell that has “self”, “self (x)”, or “ranger x” (and makes the ranger one of the targets), the beast gets a duplicate of the effects.
If the rangers casts Aid and includes themself as one of the recipients, the beast becomes an addition recipient. If the ranger casts ensnaring strike, the beast gets a copy of the “next time you hit” effect. If the rangers casts pass without a trace, the beast also has a stealth radius.
For Aid, I`d agree. If the ranger`s companion is within Share Spells range, Aid could affect the companion as well while not counting against the spell`s target number limit.
Ensnaring Strike, however, is debatable. It could reasonably be ruled as compatible as the spell seems to apply a "buff" but the only mention of a target is in reference to the struck creature. You may find it interesting that Ensnaring Strike doesn't have the buff tag in DDB`s spell database.
Pass Without Trace yields no added benefit. The spell effect radiates out from the caster for the duration effecting themselves and any other chosen creatures within range. The ranger`s companion can absolutely gain the +10 but the range limit is already 30 feet, the same as Share Spells. If you`re saying that the companion get their own aura too, I'd have to disagree.
For Aid, I`d agree. If the ranger`s companion is within Share Spells range, Aid could affect the companion as well while not counting against the spell`s target number limit.
Ensnaring Strike, however, is debatable. It could reasonably be ruled as compatible as the spell seems to apply a "buff" but the only mention of a target is in reference to the struck creature. You may find it interesting that Ensnaring Strike doesn't have the buff tag in DDB`s spell database.
Pass Without Trace yields no added benefit. The spell effect radiates out from the caster for the duration effecting themselves and any other chosen creatures within range. The ranger`s companion can absolutely gain the +10 but the range limit is already 30 feet, the same as Share Spells. If you`re saying that the companion get their own aura too, I'd have to disagree.
Pass Without Trace, Ensnaring Strike, and Aid, all work with this ability. The very video you posted confirms that. A range of self is targeting the caster.
"...when you cast a spell targeting yourself, you can also affect your beast companion with the spell if the beast is within 30 feet of you."
"A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic. A spell’s description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect."
"If a spell targets a creature of your choice, you can choose yourself, unless the creature must be hostile or specifically a creature other than you. If you are in the area of effect of a spell you cast, you can target yourself."
"Spells such as burning hands and cone of cold cover an area, allowing them to affect multiple creatures at once."
Will someone please explain to me why some folks think a spell like ensnaring strike won't allow both the ranger and beast companion to use its effects on a single cast when using the share spells ability at level 15?
They probably didn't read the spell and incorrectly assumed the spell targeted the creature hit instead of self.
True. Maybe. Not quite. What I have heard others say is something about the spells ends after the first attack hits, beast or ranger. But that is definitely not how the share spells works, the way I read it.
That would be a misreading - all self-target spells are written like that, but no-one gives the Paladin that sort of guff over sharing their spells with their steed.
It's a fairly unambiguous read and it does work.
The only real small catch is that if Concentration is dropped, both effects vanish, since Share Spells adds the companion as a target of the spell, it does not "cast" another spell. And I'm sure you were aware of that.
Not sure why a lot of DMs or people in general (taking from replies to my questions on some Discords and Forums) tend to rule TOO conservatively when it comes to Beast Masters.
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I'm both hopeful and seeing a little less of this intentionally harsh ruling on ranger stuff little by little. It may just be me wanting to see it, but I think time and discord has helped, and Tasha's has helped with a bit of RAI, at least in terms of "power level" of an ability at a given level.
Slightly off topic but think about Ranger 15 Wild magic sorcerer 5. Its the only way i can think of to twin cast fireball.
Ok maybe not .. I just wanted to follow the thread.
LOL! Nice.
I love ranger 15 spellcaster 5.
not only is that not how share spells works. that's an incorrect reading of how the spell works. The Spell continues and has to be concentrated on to continue to trap it's victims. The only limit is how many people can be affected by it while your holding the spell active. Share Spells with Ensnaring strike is basically the equivalent of Twinning a single target control spell onto two targets. it just happens that the delivery method is a little bit different.
I get it. It frustrated me to hear people saying it didn't work that way.
I was just looking for advice on good spell combinations for Share Spells when I stumbled across this thread and I thought I'd weigh in since a lot of people don’t seem to understand how a target is defined. Check out this 2020 Dragon Talk video called Sage Advice: Targeting Revisited. (https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=289&v=xUOaQ_XY7wE&feature=youtu.be) You'll find that J Craw ambiguous states how a range of self doesn’t necessarily mean that one's self is the target. He elaborates later, around 14:20 in the video, that Booming Blade is an example of one such spell with a range of self that in fact targets another creature although it does indeed originate from one's self. This blew my mind when I first heard it. I have yet to find any major implications (aside from War Caster + Booming Blade still working) but it has changed how I look at targeting in 5E and suspect some AOE spell with a range of self might have an overlooked and interesting interaction with another targeting related effect somewhere in the rules. Anyway, Ensnaring Strike could be ruled to target self then a struck target or just a struck target. It`s pretty unclear imo, but I lean toward the latter RAW. So imo you're all wrong, but I`d let a player that is excited about using it with Share Spells sway me toward ruling the other way any day.
A target is anything effected by a spell, right. Self, a creature, all creatures caught in an area of effect, etc.
Objects can often be target's too. The definition of a target is unclear, but by allowing Booming Blade with War Caster's as a substitute for an opportunity attack, J Craw makes it clear that a spell`s range doesn’t provide an answer to questions regarding who/what is a spell`s target. "The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature." This ruling from J Craw indicates that Booming Blade does not target one's self although it has a range of self.
Ok. I'm not understanding your input regarding the beast master ability though. The beast master ability has no such restriction as the twin spell ability, find steed(s) spell(s), and warcaster feat.
I'll outline a few important things regarding Share Spells.
Share Spells: Beginning at 15th level, when you cast a spell targeting yourself, you can also affect your beast companion with the spell if the beast is within 30 feet of you.
When you cast a spell means only at the time of casting.
Targeting yourself is unclear what constitutes being targeted but generally an effect, such as damage or forcing of a saving throw, seems to affect a target.
I`m saying that Ensnaring Strike`s compatability with Share Spells could be ruled either way because there is reasonable doubt toward either ruling. What constitutes a target in 5E is not defined in any clear or concise manner but J Craw did confirm that a range of self doesn't necessarily mean that one`s self is a target.
I'll outline a few important things regarding Share Spells.
Share Spells: Beginning at 15th level, when you cast a spell targeting yourself, you can also affect your beast companion with the spell if the beast is within 30 feet of you.
When you cast a spell means only at the time of casting.
Targeting yourself is unclear what constitutes being targeted but generally an effect, such as damage or forcing of a saving throw, seems to affect a target.
I`m saying that Ensnaring Strike`s compatability with Share Spells could be ruled either way because there is reasonable doubt toward either ruling. What constitutes a target in 5E is not defined in any clear or concise manner but J Craw did confirm that a range of self doesn't necessarily mean that one`s self is a target.
The reason I brought up War Caster is that J Craw`s confirmation of its continued compatability with Booming Blade is a good example. This highlights a spell that has a range of self but does not in fact target the self, only the struck creature.
first just like a "ranged attack with a weapon" is not "a ranged weapon attack" a spell that says "A spell targeting your self" is not the same as "a spell with a target of self." one is more specific than the other.
secondly, the fact that the caster now has an attack that is modified {adding a rider} means that they are the "one effected" so they may also affect their pet. The ambiguous part is the restrained creature. IMO The subject of the modified attack actually isn't a target of the spell, its a target of a creature of the modified attack.
Now booming blade doesn't actually modify an attack but self is the origin. It creates a effect that targets a hit from the attack as part of the casting. This sounds the same as Ensnaring strike but its only similar.
The problem is the bits JC never really out right defines. some confusing points are:
If a ranger casts a spell that has “self”, “self (x)”, or “ranger x” (and makes the ranger one of the targets), the beast gets a duplicate of the effects.
If the rangers casts Aid and includes themself as one of the recipients, the beast becomes an addition recipient. If the ranger casts ensnaring strike, the beast gets a copy of the “next time you hit” effect. If the rangers casts pass without a trace, the beast also has a stealth radius.
For Aid, I`d agree. If the ranger`s companion is within Share Spells range, Aid could affect the companion as well while not counting against the spell`s target number limit.
Ensnaring Strike, however, is debatable. It could reasonably be ruled as compatible as the spell seems to apply a "buff" but the only mention of a target is in reference to the struck creature. You may find it interesting that Ensnaring Strike doesn't have the buff tag in DDB`s spell database.
Pass Without Trace yields no added benefit. The spell effect radiates out from the caster for the duration effecting themselves and any other chosen creatures within range. The ranger`s companion can absolutely gain the +10 but the range limit is already 30 feet, the same as Share Spells. If you`re saying that the companion get their own aura too, I'd have to disagree.
Pass Without Trace, Ensnaring Strike, and Aid, all work with this ability. The very video you posted confirms that. A range of self is targeting the caster.
"...when you cast a spell targeting yourself, you can also affect your beast companion with the spell if the beast is within 30 feet of you."
"A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic. A spell’s description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect."
"If a spell targets a creature of your choice, you can choose yourself, unless the creature must be hostile or specifically a creature other than you. If you are in the area of effect of a spell you cast, you can target yourself."
"Spells such as burning hands and cone of cold cover an area, allowing them to affect multiple creatures at once."
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/pass-without-trace
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/ensnaring-strike