My problem with the "homework" is the spell lists are rather uninspired. Every ranger subclass in Xanathar's gave them spells that were not found on the ranger's spell list. In my opinion, Optimus didn't understand the assignment by proposing spells which they already could learn. Here's what I think they could/should have.
Beast Master Magic
Hunter Magic
3 level
Command
Heroism
5 level
Find Steed
See Invisibility
9 level
Feign Death
Slow
13 level
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Phantasmal Killer
17 level
Awaken
Scrying
And before anyone asks, I've had this kicking around for years. I adjusted the list after the release of Tasha's because several spells were given to rangers.
Several subclasses give you spells you can already learn.... You just get them anyway and don't need to spend a known spell on them.
My problem with the "homework" is the spell lists are rather uninspired. Every ranger subclass in Xanathar's gave them spells that were not found on the ranger's spell list. In my opinion, Optimus didn't understand the assignment by proposing spells which they already could learn. Here's what I think they could/should have.
Beast Master Magic
Hunter Magic
3 level
Command
Heroism
5 level
Find Steed
See Invisibility
9 level
Feign Death
Slow
13 level
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Phantasmal Killer
17 level
Awaken
Scrying
And before anyone asks, I've had this kicking around for years. I adjusted the list after the release of Tasha's because several spells were given to rangers.
Several subclasses give you spells you can already learn.... You just get them anyway and don't need to spend a known spell on them.
Life cleric is a great example....
So yeah I think maybe you didn't understand it.
I actually agree with Optimus here. In fact, I think the spells the beast master and hunter get should double down on the “must have” spells off the ranger spell list from the handbook.
My problem with the "homework" is the spell lists are rather uninspired. Every ranger subclass in Xanathar's gave them spells that were not found on the ranger's spell list. In my opinion, Optimus didn't understand the assignment by proposing spells which they already could learn. Here's what I think they could/should have.
Beast Master Magic
Hunter Magic
3 level
Command
Heroism
5 level
Find Steed
See Invisibility
9 level
Feign Death
Slow
13 level
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Phantasmal Killer
17 level
Awaken
Scrying
And before anyone asks, I've had this kicking around for years. I adjusted the list after the release of Tasha's because several spells were given to rangers.
Several subclasses give you spells you can already learn.... You just get them anyway and don't need to spend a known spell on them.
Life cleric is a great example....
So yeah I think maybe you didn't understand it.
Ranger subclasses that do grant additional spell have always granted spell that are not part of the ranger list, unlike cleric domain spell or some circle of the land lists.
Beast master 3rd find familiar 5th find steed 9th phantom steed 13th faithful hound (though find greater steed would be good to, but is outside the PHB)15th awaken (would have been dominate beast but they added it to the core list)
hunter 3rd faerie fire 5th find enhance ability 9th slow 13th greater invisibility 15th hold monster (would have been dominate beast but they added it to the core list)
My problem with the "homework" is the spell lists are rather uninspired. Every ranger subclass in Xanathar's gave them spells that were not found on the ranger's spell list. In my opinion, Optimus didn't understand the assignment by proposing spells which they already could learn. Here's what I think they could/should have.
Beast Master Magic
Hunter Magic
3 level
Command
Heroism
5 level
Find Steed
See Invisibility
9 level
Feign Death
Slow
13 level
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Phantasmal Killer
17 level
Awaken
Scrying
And before anyone asks, I've had this kicking around for years. I adjusted the list after the release of Tasha's because several spells were given to rangers.
Several subclasses give you spells you can already learn.... You just get them anyway and don't need to spend a known spell on them.
Life cleric is a great example....
So yeah I think maybe you didn't understand it.
Ranger subclasses that do grant additional spell have always granted spell that are not part of the ranger list, unlike cleric domain spell or some circle of the land lists.
Beast master 3rd find familiar 5th find steed 9th phantom steed 13th faithful hound (though find greater steed would be good to, but is outside the PHB)15th awaken (would have been dominate beast but they added it to the core list)
hunter 3rd faerie fire 5th find enhance ability 9th slow 13th greater invisibility 15th hold monster (would have been dominate beast but they added it to the core list)
Rangers already get Enhance Ability. Sure, it's nice to get it "for free" but I think something like Hol Person would fit better thematically.
Also, I think that the Beastmaster should focus on just the one pet they get instead of getting a bunch of them like your spell selection suggested.
As far as the discussion of what spells qualify for a Ranger expanded spell list goes, I'm of the opinion that there only need to be two criteria met. The first is whether the spell thematically fits the subclass in question. The second is to make sure it does not conflict with another Ranger feature that adds the same spell to their list. So basically, does it conflict with Primal Awareness? No? Then it's fair game so long as it fits the theme of the subclass.
As a fun creative exercise, here's what I've come up with:
Hunter: Hunter's Mark, Enhance Ability, Haste, Resilient Sphere, Hold Monster
I tried to go for a mix of the obvious, expected choices, and some fun surprises along the way. Resilient Sphere, I think, is very thematic for Hunters, since it lets them trap their quarry with no escape. But I never see anyone mention it. Meanwhile, Calm Emotions on a Beast Master can be used to, well, calm down aggressive beasts. Both make sense for the theme, but also have greater applications beyond them.
My problem with the "homework" is the spell lists are rather uninspired. Every ranger subclass in Xanathar's gave them spells that were not found on the ranger's spell list. In my opinion, Optimus didn't understand the assignment by proposing spells which they already could learn. Here's what I think they could/should have.
Beast Master Magic
Hunter Magic
3 level
Command
Heroism
5 level
Find Steed
See Invisibility
9 level
Feign Death
Slow
13 level
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Phantasmal Killer
17 level
Awaken
Scrying
And before anyone asks, I've had this kicking around for years. I adjusted the list after the release of Tasha's because several spells were given to rangers.
Several subclasses give you spells you can already learn.... You just get them anyway and don't need to spend a known spell on them.
Life cleric is a great example....
So yeah I think maybe you didn't understand it.
I actually agree with Optimus here. In fact, I think the spells the beast master and hunter get should double down on the “must have” spells off the ranger spell list from the handbook.
Okay, but why are the default ranger spells so important? Literally every ranger subclass with bonus spells (A) adds spells not found on the ranger spell list and (B) pulls those spells exclusively from the Player's Handbook. So, why shouldn't a supplementary list follow the same suit?
This is why I say Optimus, and now you, misunderstood. The ranger does not gain bonus spells the same way the cleric, druid, or paladin do. They all gain up to twice as many spells, and they prepare their spells daily. Comparing them is, at this point, a deliberately dishonest exercise.
My problem with the "homework" is the spell lists are rather uninspired. Every ranger subclass in Xanathar's gave them spells that were not found on the ranger's spell list. In my opinion, Optimus didn't understand the assignment by proposing spells which they already could learn. Here's what I think they could/should have.
Beast Master Magic
Hunter Magic
3 level
Command
Heroism
5 level
Find Steed
See Invisibility
9 level
Feign Death
Slow
13 level
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Phantasmal Killer
17 level
Awaken
Scrying
And before anyone asks, I've had this kicking around for years. I adjusted the list after the release of Tasha's because several spells were given to rangers.
Several subclasses give you spells you can already learn.... You just get them anyway and don't need to spend a known spell on them.
Life cleric is a great example....
So yeah I think maybe you didn't understand it.
I actually agree with Optimus here. In fact, I think the spells the beast master and hunter get should double down on the “must have” spells off the ranger spell list from the handbook.
Okay, but why are the default ranger spells so important? Literally every ranger subclass with bonus spells (A) adds spells not found on the ranger spell list and (B) pulls those spells exclusively from the Player's Handbook. So, why shouldn't a supplementary list follow the same suit?
This is why I say Optimus, and now you, misunderstood. The ranger does not gain bonus spells the same way the cleric, druid, or paladin do. They all gain up to twice as many spells, and they prepare their spells daily. Comparing them is, at this point, a deliberately dishonest exercise.
Yes. They are all different. Like how the warlock gets access to spells but not additional spells, and how artificers can’t use their subclass spells for the spell storing item. All different for different classes. Giving rangers spells they would want anyway is amazing! Just like with Tasha’s primal awareness, getting the spells you’d want frees up your choices to be actually choices. Spells rarely taken. Spells for fun instead of optimization. Etc. Getting hunter’s mark or conjure animals is amazing from my perspective as that is one less spell I’d be “locked in” to choose.
My problem with the "homework" is the spell lists are rather uninspired. Every ranger subclass in Xanathar's gave them spells that were not found on the ranger's spell list. In my opinion, Optimus didn't understand the assignment by proposing spells which they already could learn. Here's what I think they could/should have.
Beast Master Magic
Hunter Magic
3 level
Command
Heroism
5 level
Find Steed
See Invisibility
9 level
Feign Death
Slow
13 level
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Phantasmal Killer
17 level
Awaken
Scrying
And before anyone asks, I've had this kicking around for years. I adjusted the list after the release of Tasha's because several spells were given to rangers.
Several subclasses give you spells you can already learn.... You just get them anyway and don't need to spend a known spell on them.
Life cleric is a great example....
So yeah I think maybe you didn't understand it.
I actually agree with Optimus here. In fact, I think the spells the beast master and hunter get should double down on the “must have” spells off the ranger spell list from the handbook.
Okay, but why are the default ranger spells so important? Literally every ranger subclass with bonus spells (A) adds spells not found on the ranger spell list and (B) pulls those spells exclusively from the Player's Handbook. So, why shouldn't a supplementary list follow the same suit?
This is why I say Optimus, and now you, misunderstood. The ranger does not gain bonus spells the same way the cleric, druid, or paladin do. They all gain up to twice as many spells, and they prepare their spells daily. Comparing them is, at this point, a deliberately dishonest exercise.
Yes. They are all different. Like how the warlock gets access to spells but not additional spells, and how artificers can’t use their subclass spells for the spell storing item. All different for different classes. Giving rangers spells they would want anyway is amazing! Just like with Tasha’s primal awareness, getting the spells you’d want frees up your choices to be actually choices. Spells rarely taken. Spells for fun instead of optimization. Etc. Getting hunter’s mark or conjure animals is amazing from my perspective as that is one less spell I’d be “locked in” to choose.
Agreed...getting more ranger spells for free for the PHB rangers makes a lot of sense Frank.
Plus rangers get a lot of ranger only spells...why not let them use more of them?
Also its not "dishonest" at all...everyone knows clerics prepare spells and not one or more page ago we even suggested making rangers prepared casters which would make the comparison VERY apt.
I think Jounichi1983 is the one who misunderstands...especially coming in late and not understanding half the context from the last 3 or so pages.
My problem with the "homework" is the spell lists are rather uninspired. Every ranger subclass in Xanathar's gave them spells that were not found on the ranger's spell list. In my opinion, Optimus didn't understand the assignment by proposing spells which they already could learn. Here's what I think they could/should have.
Beast Master Magic
Hunter Magic
3 level
Command
Heroism
5 level
Find Steed
See Invisibility
9 level
Feign Death
Slow
13 level
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Phantasmal Killer
17 level
Awaken
Scrying
And before anyone asks, I've had this kicking around for years. I adjusted the list after the release of Tasha's because several spells were given to rangers.
Several subclasses give you spells you can already learn.... You just get them anyway and don't need to spend a known spell on them.
Life cleric is a great example....
So yeah I think maybe you didn't understand it.
I actually agree with Optimus here. In fact, I think the spells the beast master and hunter get should double down on the “must have” spells off the ranger spell list from the handbook.
Okay, but why are the default ranger spells so important? Literally every ranger subclass with bonus spells (A) adds spells not found on the ranger spell list and (B) pulls those spells exclusively from the Player's Handbook. So, why shouldn't a supplementary list follow the same suit?
This is why I say Optimus, and now you, misunderstood. The ranger does not gain bonus spells the same way the cleric, druid, or paladin do. They all gain up to twice as many spells, and they prepare their spells daily. Comparing them is, at this point, a deliberately dishonest exercise.
Yes. They are all different. Like how the warlock gets access to spells but not additional spells, and how artificers can’t use their subclass spells for the spell storing item. All different for different classes. Giving rangers spells they would want anyway is amazing! Just like with Tasha’s primal awareness, getting the spells you’d want frees up your choices to be actually choices. Spells rarely taken. Spells for fun instead of optimization. Etc. Getting hunter’s mark or conjure animals is amazing from my perspective as that is one less spell I’d be “locked in” to choose.
Rather than embrace the idea of giving rangers something interesting that they wouldn't otherwise have access to, you'd fallen for the same lie peddled by so many others.
My problem with the "homework" is the spell lists are rather uninspired. Every ranger subclass in Xanathar's gave them spells that were not found on the ranger's spell list. In my opinion, Optimus didn't understand the assignment by proposing spells which they already could learn. Here's what I think they could/should have.
Beast Master Magic
Hunter Magic
3 level
Command
Heroism
5 level
Find Steed
See Invisibility
9 level
Feign Death
Slow
13 level
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Phantasmal Killer
17 level
Awaken
Scrying
And before anyone asks, I've had this kicking around for years. I adjusted the list after the release of Tasha's because several spells were given to rangers.
Several subclasses give you spells you can already learn.... You just get them anyway and don't need to spend a known spell on them.
Life cleric is a great example....
So yeah I think maybe you didn't understand it.
I actually agree with Optimus here. In fact, I think the spells the beast master and hunter get should double down on the “must have” spells off the ranger spell list from the handbook.
Okay, but why are the default ranger spells so important? Literally every ranger subclass with bonus spells (A) adds spells not found on the ranger spell list and (B) pulls those spells exclusively from the Player's Handbook. So, why shouldn't a supplementary list follow the same suit?
This is why I say Optimus, and now you, misunderstood. The ranger does not gain bonus spells the same way the cleric, druid, or paladin do. They all gain up to twice as many spells, and they prepare their spells daily. Comparing them is, at this point, a deliberately dishonest exercise.
Yes. They are all different. Like how the warlock gets access to spells but not additional spells, and how artificers can’t use their subclass spells for the spell storing item. All different for different classes. Giving rangers spells they would want anyway is amazing! Just like with Tasha’s primal awareness, getting the spells you’d want frees up your choices to be actually choices. Spells rarely taken. Spells for fun instead of optimization. Etc. Getting hunter’s mark or conjure animals is amazing from my perspective as that is one less spell I’d be “locked in” to choose.
Rather than embrace the idea of giving rangers something interesting that they wouldn't otherwise have access to, you'd fallen for the same lie peddled by so many others.
I don’t think this is the case. Every single class and sub class with access to spellcasting capabilities has “good choices“ and “less good choices“. Handbook Rangers have a short spell list to begin with, so it only makes sense to me that they have some “go to spells“.
JC has has already alluded to the idea that spellcasting for Rangers is almost more of a class feature conceptually. I think this is all splitting hairs to be honest. What you are suggesting is giving a sub class specific spells, just like the ones in XGtE, and allowing them to pick from the Rangers spell list. I am suggesting you give them some powerful go to spells from the Ranger spell list allowing them to pick some additional ones that they might enjoy.
I don’t think this is the case. Every single class and sub class with access to spellcasting capabilities has “good choices“ and “less good choices“. Handbook Rangers have a short spell list to begin with, so it only makes sense to me that they have some “go to spells“.
JC has has already alluded to the idea that spellcasting for Rangers is almost more of a class feature conceptually. I think this is all splitting hairs to be honest. What you are suggesting is giving a sub class specific spells, just like the ones in XGtE, and allowing them to pick from the Rangers spell list. I am suggesting you give them some powerful go to spells from the Ranger spell list allowing them to pick some additional ones that they might enjoy.
And, no offense, but I think that's bad design. Because rangers learn their spells and have access to so few, all their bonus spells should be from outside the class. It's not that dissimilar to how the warlock patrons' expanded spell lists all give them new options from outside the class. Pick those options, darnit!
Going back to the cleric/druid/paladin example, those are all prepared spellcasters. The subclasses which grant bonus spells (and they don't all do, but they're the exception) grant between 9-10 bonus spells. Sometimes one of those is a cantrip. But those spell lists all pull from a mix of spells found both on their class' spell list and off it. So, if we're going to entertain the idea of making rangers into prepared spellcasters like the paladin, then we should follow the paladin's model. Only four of the paladin's 10 bonus spells for Oath of Devotion are found on their class spell list. So I'm officially putting forth the idea that maybe they should have 10 bonus spells, and that only about half are naturally on the ranger spell list.
Of course, this means going back and revising all of the expanded spell lists to bring them up to this new hypothetical standard. But that's more work, and I'm trying to not reinvent the wheel by sticking to the standard already set by WotC. Still, if we're going to do it we may as well not be lazy about it.
I don’t think this is the case. Every single class and sub class with access to spellcasting capabilities has “good choices“ and “less good choices“. Handbook Rangers have a short spell list to begin with, so it only makes sense to me that they have some “go to spells“.
JC has has already alluded to the idea that spellcasting for Rangers is almost more of a class feature conceptually. I think this is all splitting hairs to be honest. What you are suggesting is giving a sub class specific spells, just like the ones in XGtE, and allowing them to pick from the Rangers spell list. I am suggesting you give them some powerful go to spells from the Ranger spell list allowing them to pick some additional ones that they might enjoy.
Also my lists have mostly non-ranger spells:
Hunter:
Ranger Level
Spell
3rd
Longstrider (Ranger Spell)
5th
Branding Smite (Non-Ranger Spell)
9th
Elemental Weapon (Non-Ranger Spell)
13th
Banishing Smite (Non-Ranger Spell)
17th
Tree Stride (Ranger Spell)
Beast Master
RANGER LEVEL
SPELL
3rd
Snare (Ranger Spell)
5th
Barkskin (Ranger Spell)
9th
Aura of Vitality (Non-Ranger Spell)
13th
Charm Monster (Non-Ranger Spell)
17th
Awaken (Non-Ranger spell)
Drakewarden
RANGER LEVEL
SPELL
3rd
Chromatic Orb (Non-Ranger Spell)
5th
Dragon's Breath (Non-Ranger Spell)
9th
Fly (Non-Ranger Spell)
13th
Stoneskin (I would call it Dragonscale) (Ranger Spell)
17th
Summon Draconic Spirit (Non-Ranger Spell)
So every list is majority non-ranger spells....so I guess thats not enough?
I don’t think this is the case. Every single class and sub class with access to spellcasting capabilities has “good choices“ and “less good choices“. Handbook Rangers have a short spell list to begin with, so it only makes sense to me that they have some “go to spells“.
JC has has already alluded to the idea that spellcasting for Rangers is almost more of a class feature conceptually. I think this is all splitting hairs to be honest. What you are suggesting is giving a sub class specific spells, just like the ones in XGtE, and allowing them to pick from the Rangers spell list. I am suggesting you give them some powerful go to spells from the Ranger spell list allowing them to pick some additional ones that they might enjoy.
And, no offense, but I think that's bad design. Because rangers learn their spells and have access to so few, all their bonus spells should be from outside the class. It's not that dissimilar to how the warlock patrons' expanded spell lists all give them new options from outside the class. Pick those options, darnit!
Going back to the cleric/druid/paladin example, those are all prepared spellcasters. The subclasses which grant bonus spells (and they don't all do, but they're the exception) grant between 9-10 bonus spells. Sometimes one of those is a cantrip. But those spell lists all pull from a mix of spells found both on their class' spell list and off it. So, if we're going to entertain the idea of making rangers into prepared spellcasters like the paladin, then we should follow the paladin's model. Only four of the paladin's 10 bonus spells for Oath of Devotion are found on their class spell list. So I'm officially putting forth the idea that maybe they should have 10 bonus spells, and that only about half are naturally on the ranger spell list.
Of course, this means going back and revising all of the expanded spell lists to bring them up to this new hypothetical standard. But that's more work, and I'm trying to not reinvent the wheel by sticking to the standard already set by WotC. Still, if we're going to do it we may as well not be lazy about it.
The beast master could crazy benefit from spells outside their spell list. Healing word, warding bond, spirit guardians, death ward. So too the hunter. Divine favor, enhance ability, protection from energy. Or don’t ranger for that matter. Has anyone mentioned how the XGtE and TCoE ranger spells are part of their subclass and either do little or carry a few levels for them?
Many ranger spells work so well for them. The vengeance paladin gets a huge boost from hunter’s mark. The artificer gets conjure barrage. I can see where you’re going with wanting to give them expanded options, but so many of their spells are going to be “go to“ spells even with expended options from other class lists. At least for me.
Thanks all for calming down a little and getting rid of The Who misunderstood nonsense, I was beginning to get annoyed after a day of he said/she said from 8th graders and really wasn’t expecting it here ( well I sort of was but was hoping to be disappointed). As the assigner let’s see if I can clear things up a little - I wanted actual lists to discus, where they came from was not a concern I had (so no one misunderstood but everyone assumed their view point) as far as I’m concerned right no the spells can come from any list PHB, TCE, XGE, ranger list, Druid list, Wizard list etc. I would be happy with a double list for that matter - choose one of the following at each level then give 2-4 spells to chose from. I know it’s not WOtC pattern but it’s what I think all such lists SHOULD look like. Envoy’s hunter won’t pick the same as Optimus who won’t pick the same as Jounichi etc. what I would particularly like are nonconcentration and bonus action spells to make the action economy work as smoothly as possible. So:
subclass level. Ranger spell Druid Spell. Wizard spell. Other spell
Several subclasses give you spells you can already learn.... You just get them anyway and don't need to spend a known spell on them.
Life cleric is a great example....
So yeah I think maybe you didn't understand it.
I actually agree with Optimus here. In fact, I think the spells the beast master and hunter get should double down on the “must have” spells off the ranger spell list from the handbook.
Great. Now if anyone else does the assignment they’ll feel like a “Johnny come lately”.
Ranger subclasses that do grant additional spell have always granted spell that are not part of the ranger list, unlike cleric domain spell or some circle of the land lists.
Beast master 3rd find familiar 5th find steed 9th phantom steed 13th faithful hound (though find greater steed would be good to, but is outside the PHB)15th awaken (would have been dominate beast but they added it to the core list)
hunter 3rd faerie fire 5th find enhance ability 9th slow 13th greater invisibility 15th hold monster (would have been dominate beast but they added it to the core list)
Rangers already get Enhance Ability. Sure, it's nice to get it "for free" but I think something like Hol Person would fit better thematically.
Also, I think that the Beastmaster should focus on just the one pet they get instead of getting a bunch of them like your spell selection suggested.
My contribution to this exercise. (Put me down for this isn’t necessary, but it is fun.).
Hunter: Hunter’s Mark, Cordon of Arrows, Conjure Barrage, Locate Creature, Swift Quiver
Beast Master: Speak with Animals, Beast Sense, Conjure Animals, Conjure Woodland Beings, Tree Stride
(This list is for me in a world without Tasha’s. I’ll add a post Tasha’s version for the beast master later.)
As far as the discussion of what spells qualify for a Ranger expanded spell list goes, I'm of the opinion that there only need to be two criteria met. The first is whether the spell thematically fits the subclass in question. The second is to make sure it does not conflict with another Ranger feature that adds the same spell to their list. So basically, does it conflict with Primal Awareness? No? Then it's fair game so long as it fits the theme of the subclass.
As a fun creative exercise, here's what I've come up with:
Hunter: Hunter's Mark, Enhance Ability, Haste, Resilient Sphere, Hold Monster
Beast Master: Animal Friendship, Calm Emotions, Conjure Animals, Dominate Beast, Awaken
Drake Warden: Absorb Elements, Dragon's Breath, Ashardalon's Stride, Raulothim's Psychic Lance, Summon Draconic Spirit
I tried to go for a mix of the obvious, expected choices, and some fun surprises along the way. Resilient Sphere, I think, is very thematic for Hunters, since it lets them trap their quarry with no escape. But I never see anyone mention it. Meanwhile, Calm Emotions on a Beast Master can be used to, well, calm down aggressive beasts. Both make sense for the theme, but also have greater applications beyond them.
I think my favorite though is the Drake Warden's
Okay, but why are the default ranger spells so important? Literally every ranger subclass with bonus spells (A) adds spells not found on the ranger spell list and (B) pulls those spells exclusively from the Player's Handbook. So, why shouldn't a supplementary list follow the same suit?
This is why I say Optimus, and now you, misunderstood. The ranger does not gain bonus spells the same way the cleric, druid, or paladin do. They all gain up to twice as many spells, and they prepare their spells daily. Comparing them is, at this point, a deliberately dishonest exercise.
Yes. They are all different. Like how the warlock gets access to spells but not additional spells, and how artificers can’t use their subclass spells for the spell storing item. All different for different classes. Giving rangers spells they would want anyway is amazing! Just like with Tasha’s primal awareness, getting the spells you’d want frees up your choices to be actually choices. Spells rarely taken. Spells for fun instead of optimization. Etc. Getting hunter’s mark or conjure animals is amazing from my perspective as that is one less spell I’d be “locked in” to choose.
Agreed...getting more ranger spells for free for the PHB rangers makes a lot of sense Frank.
Plus rangers get a lot of ranger only spells...why not let them use more of them?
Also its not "dishonest" at all...everyone knows clerics prepare spells and not one or more page ago we even suggested making rangers prepared casters which would make the comparison VERY apt.
I think Jounichi1983 is the one who misunderstands...especially coming in late and not understanding half the context from the last 3 or so pages.
And there's the rub: ranger players aren't actually locked in to those choices. Spells like conjure animals and hunter's mark shouldn't be for every ranger. By the time a ranger can use conjure animals, they're 9th level and almost out of Tier 2 play. What about conjure barrage, lightning arrow, protection from energy, or any of the other 9+ spells available?
Rather than embrace the idea of giving rangers something interesting that they wouldn't otherwise have access to, you'd fallen for the same lie peddled by so many others.
Or you know...just pick another subclass?
I don’t think this is the case. Every single class and sub class with access to spellcasting capabilities has “good choices“ and “less good choices“. Handbook Rangers have a short spell list to begin with, so it only makes sense to me that they have some “go to spells“.
JC has has already alluded to the idea that spellcasting for Rangers is almost more of a class feature conceptually. I think this is all splitting hairs to be honest. What you are suggesting is giving a sub class specific spells, just like the ones in XGtE, and allowing them to pick from the Rangers spell list. I am suggesting you give them some powerful go to spells from the Ranger spell list allowing them to pick some additional ones that they might enjoy.
And, no offense, but I think that's bad design. Because rangers learn their spells and have access to so few, all their bonus spells should be from outside the class. It's not that dissimilar to how the warlock patrons' expanded spell lists all give them new options from outside the class. Pick those options, darnit!
Going back to the cleric/druid/paladin example, those are all prepared spellcasters. The subclasses which grant bonus spells (and they don't all do, but they're the exception) grant between 9-10 bonus spells. Sometimes one of those is a cantrip. But those spell lists all pull from a mix of spells found both on their class' spell list and off it. So, if we're going to entertain the idea of making rangers into prepared spellcasters like the paladin, then we should follow the paladin's model. Only four of the paladin's 10 bonus spells for Oath of Devotion are found on their class spell list. So I'm officially putting forth the idea that maybe they should have 10 bonus spells, and that only about half are naturally on the ranger spell list.
Of course, this means going back and revising all of the expanded spell lists to bring them up to this new hypothetical standard. But that's more work, and I'm trying to not reinvent the wheel by sticking to the standard already set by WotC. Still, if we're going to do it we may as well not be lazy about it.
Also my lists have mostly non-ranger spells:
Hunter:
Beast Master
Awaken (Non-Ranger spell)
Drakewarden
So every list is majority non-ranger spells....so I guess thats not enough?
The beast master could crazy benefit from spells outside their spell list. Healing word, warding bond, spirit guardians, death ward. So too the hunter. Divine favor, enhance ability, protection from energy. Or don’t ranger for that matter. Has anyone mentioned how the XGtE and TCoE ranger spells are part of their subclass and either do little or carry a few levels for them?
Many ranger spells work so well for them. The vengeance paladin gets a huge boost from hunter’s mark. The artificer gets conjure barrage. I can see where you’re going with wanting to give them expanded options, but so many of their spells are going to be “go to“ spells even with expended options from other class lists. At least for me.
Not really but now they have something to argue against or for now and that is what they/we really want 🤪
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I had made spell list some time back for the rangers that didn't have them, looking for it now
Thanks all for calming down a little and getting rid of The Who misunderstood nonsense, I was beginning to get annoyed after a day of he said/she said from 8th graders and really wasn’t expecting it here ( well I sort of was but was hoping to be disappointed). As the assigner let’s see if I can clear things up a little - I wanted actual lists to discus, where they came from was not a concern I had (so no one misunderstood but everyone assumed their view point) as far as I’m concerned right no the spells can come from any list PHB, TCE, XGE, ranger list, Druid list, Wizard list etc. I would be happy with a double list for that matter - choose one of the following at each level then give 2-4 spells to chose from. I know it’s not WOtC pattern but it’s what I think all such lists SHOULD look like. Envoy’s hunter won’t pick the same as Optimus who won’t pick the same as Jounichi etc. what I would particularly like are nonconcentration and bonus action spells to make the action economy work as smoothly as possible. So:
subclass
level. Ranger spell Druid Spell. Wizard spell. Other spell
there you go with a template for lists to discus.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Hunter:
3rd Faerie Fire
5th Blindness/Deafness
9th take Haste from the the Horizon Walker, give them Blink
13th Confusion
17th Hold Monster
Beastmaster:
3rd Find Familiar
5th Find Steed
9th Hypnotic Pattern
13th Giant Insect
17th Insect Plague
Drakewarden:
3rd Chromatic Orb
5th Dragon's Breath
9th Erupting Earth or Fear
13th Elemental Bane
17th Immolation