First, Drizzit is not a ranger by his progression or history. He was trained as a Drow warrior and spent his early years and career as a fighter. When he left Menzo he went a bit nuts - that’s the barbarian and rage. He finally “found himself” and his rangerhood when he got to the surface. He may think of himself as a ranger but he is still learning to be one. In earlier editions the spells came later so his not casting is much less of a problem. He has the basic survival skills of a ranger true, but he is and always will be a fighter first and foremost.
second, many of the L6-20 skills take on a very different value when you actually think (and play) in terms of real outdoor adventuring not timewarped travel to the dungeon and back with all the play time in the dungeon. Take Vanish in the dungeon the only piece that has an impact is the bonus action hide and it’s pretty weak I agree. But if your actually doing overland maybe with opponents trying to find and stop you the rest of vanish is suddenly very useful and important. Can’t be tracked by non magical means unless I want to be? Big since I can now hide the party, set false tracks and then vanish leading the party out of traps and combats and to the destination. The problem isn’t the ability - it’s the way everyone has been playing. The ability when the outdoor leg is real is very strong, when it’s not it’s weak and yes maybe you want to be a fighter 11/rogue 9/Druid 8 instead.
so which abilities do I think are better? Really all of them if I can play the ranger even close to the way it’s supposed to be played - outdoors during the travel to and from the dungeon with dragons, yarn ti, bugbears etc actually out and about and hunting for prey etc. The problem isn’t the ranger it’s the style of play.
I do agree their high level features are a joke....
Hide in Plain Sight is pretty bad IMO and I think the Feral Senses is a half feature as the second half:
"You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened."
Literally anyone can do that from level 1. Invisible creatures are known unless they hide.
Maybe your DMs nerf their invisible creatures, but mine don't. I've never in my life been just allowed to know where invisible things are without a Perception/Investigation check, and none of my DMs have ever violated the RAW in demanding said check.
I simple disagree with you about the higher level ranger abilities. I think they are mechanically potent and more than justify themselves. I think many people don’t use them well or correctly and/or play a style of game that eliminates an entire portion it’s design and function
Also, anytime we only look at baseline class abilities, the ranger loses, as the get so much from their subclass, more so than paladins, rogues, barbarians, and even some fighters.
Then feel free to explain how, because I don't see what they get that a multiclassed Ra5->F / Ro / D wouldn't do better.
I do agree their high level features are a joke....
Hide in Plain Sight is pretty bad IMO and I think the Feral Senses is a half feature as the second half:
"You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you aren’t blinded or deafened."
Literally anyone can do that from level 1. Invisible creatures are known unless they hide.
Maybe your DMs nerf their invisible creatures, but mine don't. I've never in my life been just allowed to know where invisible things are without a Perception/Investigation check, and none of my DMs have ever violated the RAW in demanding said check.
It is RAW you can target a creature/know it's location without a check....
They don't auto hide just because they are invisible....
First, Drizzit is not a ranger by his progression or history. He was trained as a Drow warrior and spent his early years and career as a fighter. When he left Menzo he went a bit nuts - that’s the barbarian and rage. He finally “found himself” and his rangerhood when he got to the surface. He may think of himself as a ranger but he is still learning to be one. In earlier editions the spells came later so his not casting is much less of a problem. He has the basic survival skills of a ranger true, but he is and always will be a fighter first and foremost.
second, many of the L6-20 skills take on a very different value when you actually think (and play) in terms of real outdoor adventuring not timewarped travel to the dungeon and back with all the play time in the dungeon. Take Vanish in the dungeon the only piece that has an impact is the bonus action hide and it’s pretty weak I agree. But if your actually doing overland maybe with opponents trying to find and stop you the rest of vanish is suddenly very useful and important. Can’t be tracked by non magical means unless I want to be? Big since I can now hide the party, set false tracks and then vanish leading the party out of traps and combats and to the destination. The problem isn’t the ability - it’s the way everyone has been playing. The ability when the outdoor leg is real is very strong, when it’s not it’s weak and yes maybe you want to be a fighter 11/rogue 9/Druid 8 instead.
so which abilities do I think are better? Really all of them if I can play the ranger even close to the way it’s supposed to be played - outdoors during the travel to and from the dungeon with dragons, yarn ti, bugbears etc actually out and about and hunting for prey etc. The problem isn’t the ranger it’s the style of play.
Drizzt is still the most iconic Ranger in the series, though a lot of his disconnect with the class comes from being a Ranger in earlier editions when Rangers were a lot more like Fighter archetypes than its own class.
So your point is that Vanish is good when running a part of the game that is both underplayed and, as far as I can tell, very much underdeveloped mechanically? Yeah, you're not selling me on that one being worth more than 9 levels in Fighter, Rogue or Druid. I don't even think Vanish is bad, because hide on bonus action is fine, just underwhelming when you can have Cunning Action much earlier. Access to Pass Without Trace at level 5 also makes Vanish seem like less of a big deal. Vanish really should've been a T2 ability where it could shine a bit more.
The problem the Ranger has, fundamentally, is how front loaded it is and how it doesn't really scale much in combat after level 5. Giving them a passive boost to damage (I suggest rolling an additional die on weapon attacks, kinda like a Paladin adds 1d8 radiant with Improved Divine Smite) and some more universally useful out of combat abilities would solve the multiclass problem.
You could say I am focusing too much on combat, but D&D is a combat ruleset at its core and Rangers are a warrior class, so combat should be a priority for their design.
As we saw in the table a L20 ranger is second only to a L20 fighter in terms ov overall long term damage done - and that is the castr*ted version.
A Ranger using Foe Slayer against a nerfed Barbarian, using neither Rage nor Reckless Attack as far as I can tell. Because of Reckless Attack, Barbarians have advantage on demand, drastically increasing their accuracy on all attacks, not just one attack per turn. That's why they are so good with Great Weapon Master. Assuming 65% hit chance, advantage increases that to 87.75%, which is a massive boost to consistent damage. Even higher with Primal Champion, since the +2 turns 65% to 75%.
These are some theoretical numbers, based around 65% base accuracy. Let's do a dual wielding Gloom Stalker, an archery Gloom Stalker and a 2h Barbarian. I will run the Stalker with advantage between Umbral Sight and Guardian of Nature. This prevents Hunter's Mark, but advantage is generally a lot better. I'll also run one for Swift Quiver.
+3 weapons, max primary stats (Dex & Wis for Ranger, Str for Barb) for base +8 (Ranger) and +14 (Raging Barb) damage per hit.
Barb & archer Stalker effective accuracy: 93.75% with advantage DW Stalker: 87.75% with advantage Stalker's Flurry gives +1 attack when missing, so I will assume Stalkers have 1 non-Dread Ambush attack (since we lose the +1d8 if we miss) with 100% accuracy since 65% becomes ~98.5% and 75% becomes ~99.7% Foe Slayer: Also turns into 1 attack at 100% since 90% (65+25) with advantage gives 1% miss chance. Both Foe Slayer and Flurry are made 100% out of convenience since the margin of error is so small.
I'm not using feats or crits, again for simplicity. These are ballpark numbers. This is a significant nerf to barbarians, who would in all likelihood combine Great Weapon Master and Pole Arm Master.
This is about as optimal as I can make it for Rangers, so let's see how they do.
Archer: Nature Round 1: 2 regular attacks at 100% + Dread Ambush Attack. Bonus Action: Guardian of Nature: Tree Form (Concentration) Avg: (1d8+8 x 2) + (2d8 + 8 x 93.75%) = 23 + 15,9375 = 38,9375 Round 2 onward: 2 attacks at 100% Avg: 23
Archer: Swift Round 1: 2 regular attacks at 100% + Dread Ambush Attack. Bonus Action: Swift Quiver (Concentration) / Note: Assuming advantage during ambush Avg: (1d8+8 x 2) + (2d8 + 8 x 93.75%) = 23 + 15,9375 = 38,9375 Round 2 onward: 4 regular attacks. / Note: Assuming 2 with advantage, since you won't always have it without Guardian of Nature. Assuming Flurry triggers on a non-advantage attack for the largest increase in accuracy, effectively turning it to 3 attacks with advantage. Avg: (1d8+8 x 3) x 93.75% + (1d8 + 8 x 75%) = 33,28125 + 9,375 = 42,65625
DW: Round 1: 2 regular attacks at 100% + Dread Ambush Attack. Bonus Action: Guardian of Nature: Tree Form (Concentration) Avg: (1d6+8 x 2) + (1d6 + 1d8 + 8 x 93.75%) = 21 + 15 = 36 Round 2 onward: 2 regular attacks at 100% + off-hand attack Avg: 21 + (1d6 + 8 x 93.75%) = 21 + 10,78125 = 31,78125
Barb: Round 1 onwards: 2 attacks, Bonus Action: Rage Avg: (2d6 + 14 x 2) x 93,75% = 38,4375 Zealot: 1d6+10 radiant or necrotic 1/turn at 93.75%: +12,65625 / Note: Could be rounded up to 100% for the same reason Flurry and Slayer could. If so: +13.5 Berserker: +(2d6+14) x 93.75% = +19,6875
So with fairly ideal situations, only ranged Stalkers using Swift Quiver can outperform a basic Barbarian and even then they fall quite far behind the moment the barb is allowed to use one of its damage oriented subclasses.
Fun bonus: Stalker 5/ Swashbuckler 15, dual wielder
3 attacks per round at 65% accuracy, giving Sneak Attack an effective accuracy of 95.7125%. No spells, advantage or anything. Avg: (1d6 + 8 x 3) x 65% + (8d6 x 95.7125%) = 22,425 + 26,7995 = 49,2245
Of course, all of these numbers assume level 20, so we would have to run some numbers on how these classes compare at various points in the game. But you're right the comparison was with the nerfed version; the nerfed Barbarian, that is. Even these numbers are nerfed, because they'd definitely use GWM and PAM to maximize damage.
Of course, even this is very generous to the Ranger, because Foe Slayer is a very limited ability. If you use Tasha's, you can't use a concentration spell with Favored Foe, tossing out both Guardian of Nature and Swift Quiver. And if you're using Favored Enemy, you better hope you're fighting one of the 3 types you have.
Thank you for the work outs on damage very impressive and useful going full out in the final battle it looks like the “average” Ranger is number 3 in damage which , to my mind is actually fine. He does top tier but not top spot damage. His spells help with some area combat control or to help boost damage as you showed. And his stealth and movement allow him to get flanking compared to the fighter and barbarian giving him advantage much of the time as well in melee which helps too. I agree that the ranger is nerfed - just not by the abilities which work for him in a full on campaign. Are they always on? Not all but neither are most abilities for other classes as well. His martial skills put him at about 85-90% of the fighter, his spells put him at @65% of the Druid and his stealth and movement put him at about 40% of the rogue and 25% of the monk. That’s actually an incredibly powerful single character. If you play him as just a fighter then yes he isn’t quite full on, same for a Druid/cleric and especially for a rogue/monk. He is nerfed in his home terrain (the wilderness) because the game is nerfed there. But looked at properly he is actually the strongest class in the game. To match a L20 Ranger you need (very roughly) a L18 fighter/barbarian, a L10 Druid, and a L5 rogue or monk. This is why I say most folks that play and like the ranger may not be playing him right ( including me sometimes) because we play them as almost a pure fighter and tend to forget the spells and other abilities because we aren’t where they are at their greatest effect often.
if you look at each level and the abilities you start to see what I mean: L6: 2nd favored enemy (or third) or Roving: +5 speed and a swimming and climbing speed. The favored enemy helps combat eventually as does the 5’ move bonus but the speeds don’t seem to be doing much until you read about underwater combat where having a swim speed nullifies the disadvantage with most weapons and suddenly it has a bigger impact. Climbing isn’t as obvious but even most rogues don’t have a climbing speed without a magic item. L7: by archetype: Hunter: escape the horde/multi attack defense/steel will - one for the movement ranger, one for the stay put melee ranger and one for the rest. Call it 25% less chance to be hit as your moving around - big for a movement based melee ranger especially against multiple foes. A +4 to AC to follow up attacks from a single foe each round - not to shabby if your tanking. Advantage vs fear effects ok it’s not immunity but fear effects are probably the most used or second most used enchantments and party disruptions used so it’s not exactly weak for anyone. Beast master: the dash/disengage/help actions change from being an action to being a bonus action and the companions attacks are now magical. Improved action economy giving you back your 2 attacks and the beast’s attacks work at full strength against basically everything not too shabby actually. Gloomstalker: iron mind- proficiency with wisdom saves meaning you are no proficient with 50-60% of all saves instead of 30-40% and your proficient against not jus fear but also charms. Horizon Walker: a 1 turn Etherealness spell without using a spellslot once per rest. Allowing you full movement thru difficult terrain or even walls/floors/ceilings etc. if it were longer it would be great for scouting but it’s still useful for escapes and checking out locked/trapped doors since you can see into the prime but the prime can’t sense you. an add in to ranger sneakiness. Monster hunter: supernatural defense: +1D6 added to saves and grapple escapes vs slayers preyed foes - +1D6 against your main foe in the battle (+3 on average) not exactly a bad help. Fey wanderer-beguiling twist: advantage vs charms & fears and you have a chance to flip the spell onto someone else ( like the clown that tried it on you or his bodyguard etc. Swarm keeper - writhing tide: 1 minute of flight PB times per restmore movement is never bad. Drakewarden - Bond of fang and scale: the drake can fly, you can ride the drake but not if it’s flying, drake does 1D6 more damage and you and the drake gain resistance to its energy type 4 very nice features. either a special movement or resistance/advantage to major save problems when does the fighter get either as a non feat feature? L8) ASI and lands stride. The ASI is an obvious big deal, Landstride is a a big deal if the game actually includes cross country movement. If not the game nerfed the ranger again. L9) 3 rd level spells, 2 L3 slots and one new spell. (Conjure animals, conjure barrage, protection from energy) if you don’t value the ranger’s spell casting then this is nothing, if you do this is major. L10) tireless ( temp HP and exhaustion removal) or the 3rd terrain type. The terrain type is important and the temp HP are nice but yes this is weaker one. You should be getting more terrain types but this your last one so you best make it count.
I could go on but this illustrates my points - in a full on campaign with all 3 legs done right the features the ranger gets are strong features, the problem isn’t the ranger it’s the game management and maybe the way folks play the game because of the mismanagement.
Yes, my table should have come with the disclaimer that it was purely there to determine the effectiveness of the Level 20 Suite of Abilities™ for Ranger, Barbarian, and Fighter [Foe Slayer, Primal Champion, and Extra Attack(3)]. For that I had to use a deliberately nerfed baseline character.
What it showed was that against a favoured enemy, Foe Slayer is actually very good, better in fact than Primal Champion on pure damage alone, however against a non favoured enemy it adds nothing. What is difficult to quantify is how often it gets used. You ultimately only get 3* selections from 14* choices (I'm saying if you pick humanoid that's covering all humanoids for this argument because it is too much to comprehend otherwise) so, at a minimum you're active three fourteenths of the time. Now, narratively it makes sense for a Ranger to hunt down their favoured enemies, so that brings your baseline up, and if in a party then that brings it down as other people have other agendas, but I think it fair to say, for the sake of an argument, that in combats that matter you might be active 50% of the time, which is still a significant boost.
I am working on a table with more details, but it is taking longer than expected, basically rebuilding all the work I did yesterday as I threw it together in a hurry.
If people want to provide an ideal build for Ranger, Barbarian, and Fighter and tell me how it works (I'm not really interested these days in building characters with combat effectiveness foremost in my mind, so you can likely build something way better than I) then I can try to check the overall damage output (please bear in mind that I'm not a mathematician so if it gets too complex I'll not be able to do it). If you're building for Nova potential it won't work because how do I tell how many Novas you get over x rounds (currently running 400, but pretty certain someone is going to throw something my way that will make me have to do more)?
I'm not convinced Ranger is #3 on this list, because I've not seen anyone run Paladin numbers under comparable circumstances. They are also harder to directly compare, because they deal more burst and less sustain than the other martial classes. And in my experience, burst is more valuable point for point than sustain because a dead creature takes no actions. There is also the matter of other classes coming into the mix. Here are some hastily thrown together numbers.
Lvl 20, +3 weapons, max primary stat for everyone.
Scout Rogue: Between Ambush Master and Sudden Strike, we assume 1 full attack with advantage that triggers Sneak Attack per turn. Again an avg 65% accuracy or 87.75% when accounting for the advantage. Shortbow +3, 20 Dex, 10d6 Sneak Attack (1d6 + 8 + 10d6) x 87.75% = 39,92625
That's almost 40 avg dmg every turn, without expending a single resource. Swashbucklers can match these numbers, thanks to Rakish Audacity.
Arcane Tricksters can do something similar with their Mage Hand and Find Familiar shennanigans, not to mention their access to spells like Shadowblade or Booming Blade. Versatile Trickster lets you use a bonus action to make the Mage Hand give you advantage, so with a rapier +3 and Booming Blades, we have this: (1d8 + 8 + 3d8 + 10d6) x 87.75% = (12.5 + 13.5 + 35) x 87.75% = 53,5275 Add on an additional 4d8 if they trigger Booming Blade's secondary damage.
When a Vengeance Paladin goes nova, it has automatic advantage on attacks thanks to Vow of Emnity and will also have advantage against fightened enemies while Avenging Angel mode. Soul of Vengeance also makes attacks of opportunity very common against your Vow of Emnity target, effectively giving you 3 attacks per turn.
+3 greatsword, 20 Strength, Improved Divine Smite, Vow of Emnity
(2d6 + 8 + 1d8) x 3 at 87.75% = 58,5 x 87,75% = 51,33375
This uses your Channel Divinity which is just a short rest resource, but no spellslots, so add anything from 2d8 to 6d8 for Smite. We can also use their spell list to push the sustain further, using Divine Favor, Bless, Hunter's Mark or Haste.
Standard Blastlock: Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast, Hex
(1d10 + 5 + 1d6) x 4 at 65% = 56 x 65% = 36.4
Let's look at how a Stalker progresses from level 5 to 20.
Archer:
Level 5: Hunter's Mark, Archery style, Gloom Stalker, +1 longbow, 18 Dex Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambusher, Bonus Action: Mark / Note: Assuming 1 attack with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it (1d8 + 5 + 1d6) x 93.75% + (1d8 + 5 + 1d6) x 75% + (2d8 + 5 + 1d6) at 75% = 12,1875 + 9,75 + 13,125 = 35,0625 Round 2 onward: 21,9375
You then, more or less, stagnate in damage until level 11, beyond getting 20 Dex and maybe a +2 bow. I'll assume a +1 bow for 11 and +2 for 13.
Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambusher, Hunter's Mark / Note: Assuming 1 attack with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry (1d8 + 6 + 1d6 x 2) x 93.75% + (2d8 + 6 + 1d6) at 75% = 28,125 + 13,875 = 42 Round 2 onwards: 28,125
Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambusher, Guardian of Nature / Assuming 2 attacks at 100% due to Umbral Sight and Flurry, because of the small margin of error of 98+% accuracy not being worth calculating unless there is a photo finish. Dread Ambusher with advantage. (1d8 + 7) x 2 + (2d8 + 7) x 93.75% = 23 + 15 = 38 / Note: Did not expect that. Guardian of Nature is a worse damage spell for archery Stalkers than Hunter's Mark. Meaning that Stalkers stagnate from 11 to 17 in terms of damage. Round 2 onwards: 23
Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambusher, Bonus Action: Swift Quiver / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry. (1d8 + 8) x 2 at 93,75% + (2d8 + 8) x 75% = 23,4375 + 12,75 = 36,1875 Round 2 onwards: 4 attacks / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry. (1d8 + 8) x 3 at 93,75% + (1d8 + 8) x 75% = 35,15625 + 9,375 = 44,53125 / Note: Looks like I need to redo the Foe Slayer too, since adding it to an attack without advantage gives a much better overall accuracy
Round 1: Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambusher, Bonus Action: Swift Quiver / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry. Assuming +5 damage for one attack thanks to Foe Slayer (1d8 + 8) at 93,75% + (1d8 + 13) at 93,75% + (2d8 + 8) x 75% = 11,71875 + 16,40625 + 12,75 = 40,875 Round 2 onwards: 4 attacks. / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry. Assuming 90% accuracy for 4th attack thanks to Foe Slayer (1d8 + 8) x 3 at 93,75% + (1d8 + 8) at 90% = 35,15625 + 11,25 = 46,40625
So a bit more optimization does put the damage to better levels, though still behind other damage oriented classes.
Dual wielder
Level 5: Hunter's Mark, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +1 shortswords/scimitars, 18 Dex Rounds 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambush, BA: Mark / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight rounded down since you won't always have it (2d6 + 5) at 87,75% + (2d6 + 5) at 65% + (2d6 + 5 + 1d8) at 65% = 10,53 + 7,8 + 10,725 = 29,055 Round 2 onwards: 3 attacks (2d6 + 5) at 87,75% + (2d6 + 5 x 2) at 65% = 26,13
Level 11: Hunter's Mark, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +1 shortswords/scimitars, 20 Dex, Flurry Rounds 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambush, BA: Mark / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight rounded down since you won't always have it + 1 from Flurry (2d6 +6) x 2 at 87,75% + (2d6 + 6 + 1d8) at 65% = 22,815 + 11,375 = 34,19 Round 2 onwards: 3 attacks (2d6 + 6) x 2 at 87,75% + (2d6 + 6) at 65% = 22,815 + 8,45 = 31,265
Level 13: Guardian of Nature, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +2 shortswords/scimitars, 20 Dex, Flurry Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambush, BA: Guardian / Assuming 2 attacks at 100% due to Umbral Sight and Flurry, everything else with advantage (1d6 + 7) x 2 + (1d6 + 7 + 1d8) at 87,75% = 14 + 13,1625 = 27,1625 Round 2 onwards: 14 + 9,21375 = 23,21375 Note: Gloom Stalkers should apparently use Hunter's Mark instead o Guardian of Nature most of the time. Neat.
This does mean that there isn't much progression in a dual wielding Stalker's damage from level 11 to 19 though. Let's run Foe Slayer + Hunter's Mark
Level 20: Hunter's Mark, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +3 shortswords/scimitars, 20 Dex, Flurry, Foe Slayer Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambush, BA: Mark / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight rounded down since you won't always have it + 1 from Flurry. Assuming last attack has 90% accuracy due to Foe Slayer. (2d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (2d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 90% = 26,325 + 17,55 = 43,875 Round 2 onwards: 3 attacks (2d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (2d6 + 8) at 90% = 26,325 + 13,5 = 39,825
Note: Every time we have to reapply Hunter's Mark we lose up to 1/3 of our damage on round 2 and onwards due to Bonus Action bloat and that dual wielding gets a it shafted in general. No good feats to improve it either, since the dual wielder feat is a minor damage increase. ~2 to ~2,5 when accounting for accuracy.
Level 20: Favored Foe, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +3 shortswords/scimitars, 20 Dex, Flurry, Foe Slayer 3 attacks per round, assuming 50% with advantage and 1 with 90% from Flurry, Umbral Sight and Foe Slayer effectively. Round 1: (1d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (1d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 90%% + (1d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 87,75% = 20,1825 + 14,4 + 14,04 = 48,6225 Round 2 onwards: (1d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (1d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 90%% = 20,1825 + 14,4 = 34,5825
Looks like a dual wielder is better off using Favored Foe than Favored Enemy because you avoid the constant problem of target switching, even though you would deal slightly less damage on the 3rd round against a singular target. At least until your 6 uses runs out, since you can't transfer it to a new target.
All of these numbers use the same basic assumptions as the previous ones. Rogues, Barbarians and Paladins deal more damage while expending less resources than a Ranger. Rangers are dependant on 4th and 5th level spellsfor damage even when we use Stalker. And Fighters are ahead of them all. At best, Rangers are #5 when it comes to damage.
These numbers are also exceptionally lenient with the Ranger, while not giving the other classes the benefit of the doubt. We are assuming
1) that we're fighting our Favored Enemy, which is a choice of 3 of 14 at most (less if we account for the various humanoids) and heavily DM reliant. Dual wielding Stalkers can be less DM dependent (yay!), but also does significantly worse overall (boo!) and Favored Foe will run out a lot quicker than Favored Enemy will, effectively tanking the Stalker's damageback to lvl 17 values either way.
2) that we won't have problems with concentration, which a Ranger almost certainly will. Since we have no class features to help with concentration, even 1 point of damage will on average have between 30% (16 con) and 35% (14 con) chance to knock off our buff. So it is borderline mandatory to pick up both Resillience: Constitution and/or War Caster to address this, which does limit our build quite a lot. We do want 20 in both Dex and Wis at level 20, after all.
Conclusion: Unless someone can show a Ranger build that is notably stronger than Gloom Stalker for damage, a Ranger in the most ideal situations is still notably behind the other martials, while also lacking those classes' strong defensive traits. It can barely push ahead of some Rogues, but even that goes out the window against an Arcane Trickster using a blade cantrip.
Are the Rangers terrible? No, but they aren't really in a good spot either. Their utility is primarily geared towards an underdeveloped part of the game and they lag behind other martial classes in combat, even when expending more resources. They also tend to benefit more from multiclassing than staying in their own class, which is certainly a sign of poor high level abilities.
Do Rangers need to be top damage dealer? No, but I think a passive boost to their damage in T3 is warranted. Something like rolling 2 dice instead of 1 for weapon damage. Let's just plop in those numbers for dual wielding and archer Stalkers:
Weapon Master Ranger: +1 damage dice on weapon attacks.
Foe Slayer:
Level 20: Hunter's Mark, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +3 shortswords/scimitars, 20 Dex, Flurry, Foe Slayer Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambush, BA: Mark / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight rounded down since you won't always have it + 1 from Flurry. Assuming last attack has 90% accuracy due to Foe Slayer. (3d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (3d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 90% = 32,4675 + 20,7 = 53,1675 Round 2 onwards: 3 attacks (3d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (3d6 + 8) at 90% = 32,4675 + 16,65 = 49,1175
Level 20: Favored Foe, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +3 shortswords/scimitars, 20 Dex, Flurry, Foe Slayer 3 attacks per round, assuming 50% with advantage and 1 with 90% from Flurry, Umbral Sight and Foe Slayer effectively. Round 1: (2d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (2d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 90%% + (2d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 87,75% = 26,325 + 17,55 + 17,11125 = 60,98625 Round 2 onwards: (2d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (2d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 90%% = 26,325 + 17,55 = 43,875
Round 1: Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambusher, Bonus Action: Swift Quiver / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry. Assuming +5 damage for one attack thanks to Foe Slayer (2d8 + 8) at 93,75% + (2d8 + 13) at 93,75% + (3d8 + 8) x 75% = 15,9375 + 20,625 + 16,125 = 52,6875 Round 2 onwards: 4 attacks. / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry. Assuming 90% accuracy for 4th attack thanks to Foe Slayer (2d8 + 8) x 3 at 93,75% + (2d8 + 8) at 90% = 47,8125 + 15,3 = 63,1125
Without Foe Slayer:
Hunter's Mark, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +3 shortswords/scimitars, 20 Dex, Flurry Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambush, BA: Mark / Assuming 2 attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight and Flurry. (3d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (3d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 65% = 32,4675 + 14,95 = 47,4175 Round 2 onwards: 3 attacks (3d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (3d6 + 8) at 65% = 32,4675 + 12,025 = 44,4925
Favored Foe, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +3 shortswords/scimitars, 20 Dex, Flurry 4-3 attacks per round, assuming 3-2 with advantage from Flurry and Umbral Sight Round 1: (2d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (2d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 65%% + (2d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 87,75% = 26,325 + 12,675 + 17,11125 = 56,11125 Round 2 onwards: (2d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (2d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 65%% = 26,325 + 12,675 = 39
Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambusher, Bonus Action: Swift Quiver / Assuming 1 attack with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry. (2d8 + 8) x 2 at 93,75% + (3d8 + 8) x 75% = 31,875 + 16,125 = 48 Round 2 onwards: 4 attacks / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry. (2d8 + 8) x 3 at 93,75% + (2d8 + 8) x 75% = 47,8125 + 12,75 = 60,5625
Maybe a bit strong, but the power mostly lies with archers and I do think it is compensated for by having very little defensive utility compared to the other martial classes and a high rosk of losing concentration. It is also on very limited resources.
I love how you use the most damage dealing paladin subclass and account for its short rest ability and once a day ability for sustained damage but don’t account for the action and bonus action it takes on the first turn (no damage that turn) to turn these on. And then assume an extra attack each turn which is not sound. You also need to cover the gap as a melee fighter. Bad numbers. Should be more like 32.53 over three round with hunter’s mark and enmity and Angel
Giving rogues advantage on all attacks from hiding when at level 20 is generous and that is easily overcome and rangers can do the same thing. Even so, I have a rogue more like 38.92 assuming advantage from hiding about 50% of the time
A hunter using only hunter’s mark is doing 35.7 with only hunter’s mark and no advantage. And that is against only one target. Any ranger’s damage go way up when groups of enemies are in play. Especially the hunter. Also, go ahead and add a 3rd level smite once over 3 rounds for the paladin and let the ranger use plant growth, hail of thorns, or conjure animals. All game changers. Cover, damage, hit point soak, restrained, prone, poison, AoE damage, canceled movement.
I love how you use the most damage dealing paladin subclass and account for its short rest ability and once a day ability for sustained damage but don’t account for the action and bonus action it takes on the first turn (no damage that turn) to turn these on. And then assume an extra attack each turn which is not sound. You also need to cover the gap as a melee fighter. Bad numbers. Should be more like 32.53 over three round with hunter’s mark and enmity and Angel
Actually, only Vow of Emnity is needed. Avenging Angel isn't necessary if you have Vow available, since both give advantage on attacks. The additional attack comes from their level 15 feature which gives them an attack of opportunity if their Vow target makes an attack within the Paladin's range, which most enemies tend to do.
And of course I look at a damage oriented Paladin; I am comparing it to a damage oriented Ranger.
Giving rogues advantage on all attacks from hiding when at level 20 is generous and that is easily overcome and rangers can do the same thing. Even so, I have a rogue more like 38.92 assuming advantage from hiding about 50% of the time
I am not though. I assume advantage because both Scout and Swashbuckler can Sneak Attack without advantage and attack twice. Arcane Tricksters can also produce their own advantage on demand with their level 13 feature or by combining a readied action with a familiar. Owls are great for this, being immune to attacks of opportunity. Shadowblade also provides its own advantage.
A hunter using only hunter’s mark is doing 35.7 with only hunter’s mark and no advantage. And that is against only one target. Any ranger’s damage go way up when groups of enemies are in play. Especially the hunter. Also, go ahead and add a 3rd level smite once over 3 rounds for the paladin and let the ranger use plant growth, hail of thorns, or conjure animals. All game changers. Cover, damage, hit point soak, restrained, prone, poison, AoE damage, canceled movement.
How about you do your own leg work?
But here is an unfortunate feature of D&D; multitargetting tend to be less valuable than focused fire for martial characters because they lack the massive damage numbers casters can put out. Let's say we have a Hunter and compare Colossus Slayer to Horde Breaker. Horde Breaker is potentially +1 attack per turn at level 3, which is really nice, but it has a pretty small area of effect. Makes sense, it is a T1 ability after all. You attack 2 creatures and deal damage (yay!), but they both survive (boo!) and can take their turns as normal.
Now let's reset the situation and you have Colossus Slayer (or any of its variants really). You only attack 1 creature, but the bonus damage triggers. You dealt less damage overall, but now one of those creatures is dead instead of damaged and can't take their turn. Even though the focused damage did less on paper, it did more in practice. Multitargetting also tend to just not do anything when fighting strong monsters meant to take on the party by themselves.
The tables are nice and I do appreciate all the work that went into them but, whether the ranger is the biggest damage dealer ( it clearly isn’t) or only number 3/4/5 it’s really the point. It’s a big league damage dealer in the same ball park with the others. It’s a decathalete competing with the world class sprinters and right in there in the mix. And then when the race is over it goes over to the long jump pit and competes with them and does well then the high jump etc it may not medal in any individual event but it’s clearly the best overall because of all the different things it does. The problem is much more misperception and mismanagement of the game than the actual abilities unless you are trying to play it as just another fighter or claiming a different class with a ranger dip is the same as a full on ranger.
also the AC 25+ is there since I pointed out that end story bbeg could easily be using magic items on top of these big starting ACs try taking on an ancient red dragon wearing bracers, a ring of protection and a cloak of displacement - have fun😳😁🤡
The tables are nice and I do appreciate all the work that went into them but, whether the ranger is the biggest damage dealer ( it clearly isn’t) or only number 3/4/5 it’s really the point. It’s a big league damage dealer in the same ball park with the others. It’s a decathalete competing with the world class sprinters and right in there in the mix. And then when the race is over it goes over to the long jump pit and competes with them and does well then the high jump etc it may not medal in any individual event but it’s clearly the best overall because of all the different things it does. The problem is much more misperception and mismanagement of the game than the actual abilities unless you are trying to play it as just another fighter or claiming a different class with a ranger dip is the same as a full on ranger.
I've mentioned several times that the Rangers are "fine" mechanically, if you're using the better archetypes and the various spells added to the mix. But a key part of the problem they have is that they have few high level abilities worth more than multiclassing which is precisely why I want some better high level abilities. A carrot for staying pure class compared to multiclassing. A passive boost to damage in T3 would be the most universally useful way to do it.
So are we attacking a single big target here or more targets? Here is another unfortunate feature of D&D, doing 55 damage to a target with 5 hp only does 5 damage. These comparisons are only against something that is taking this damage 100%. So if we use the old “a dead creature is better” let’s assume we can kill these creatures, and therefore are NOT dealing 100% damage. If we are dealing with one big creature, that’s fine, and the vengeance paladin and a rogue will do well. If there is a small horde, those two classes/subclass won’t do as well.
You are still going to need to account for the paladin being in melee, not NOT flying as you didn’t want to use their level 20 ability. You also need to account for what else a rogue isn’t being to the table for combats. AoE, healing, hp pool, control, assisting other party members. You have a class that does one thing, albeit effectively, which is single target damage, and nothing else. A ranger can lock down enemies from moving, deal very good damage against small and medium groups of enemies with a very tight focus, blockout the battlefield and have advantage in all attacks while taking any advantage away from everyone else, and bring extra bodies to the fight for a menagerie of strategical and tactical benefits.
So a 3 round combat is V paladin 59.03, a rogue with advantage in every hit is doing 48.03, and a hunter is doing 35.7, each of them against a single big target taking 100% of all of this damage. I know the umbers look good for the other two over the ranger, but the assumptions are bad and in their favor. Once we step out of the white room of combat, the ranger overtakes them in all other situations except single target damage.
The tables are nice and I do appreciate all the work that went into them but, whether the ranger is the biggest damage dealer ( it clearly isn’t) or only number 3/4/5 it’s really the point. It’s a big league damage dealer in the same ball park with the others. It’s a decathalete competing with the world class sprinters and right in there in the mix. And then when the race is over it goes over to the long jump pit and competes with them and does well then the high jump etc it may not medal in any individual event but it’s clearly the best overall because of all the different things it does. The problem is much more misperception and mismanagement of the game than the actual abilities unless you are trying to play it as just another fighter or claiming a different class with a ranger dip is the same as a full on ranger.
I've mentioned several times that the Rangers are "fine" mechanically, if you're using the better archetypes and the various spells added to the mix. But a key part of the problem they have is that they have few high level abilities worth more than multiclassing which is precisely why I want some better high level abilities. A carrot for staying pure class compared to multiclassing. A passive boost to damage in T3 would be the most universally useful way to do it.
Agreed....once you get Conjure Animals its not really worth it to keep going IMO.
Pretty much any spell you get at 4th or 5th level is not likely to be worth using your concentration for over Conjure Animals most of the time....better to just use your higher slots to upcast.
Swift Quiver keeps coming up but its only at best a d8+15 damage (Assuming sharpshooter and not using a handcrossbow).
This is one more attack than you would normally get if you just used CBE and used your concentration for a better spell.....like conjure animals.
Even if the DM Screws you and gives you 0 CR creatures you are still putting out more damage than the extra attack from swift quiver as 16 0 CR creatures will put out between 40 (AC 15) to 20 (AC 20) points of damage per turn with the option to use a help action instead and give ADV on up to 16 creatures to attack. Also its area control as the creatures would need to use a disengage or eat a ton of attacks of opportunity. And if they burn through your conjures? Thats as good as a healing spell as they spent an attack destroying the summons instead of you.
The only reason to NOT take it is if your DM hates minionmancy and decides that 16 creatures is too much....something I agree with TBH. Then ranger's damage potential drops off hard after 9th level but still keeps up. Once the fighter gets that third attack and is using the damage feats it gets a bit out of reach for ranger in terms of pure damage. The rest of the martials are about in line but get better higher level features IMO.....Paladins get some amazing higher level spells (Find Greater Steed, Circle of Power, Holy Weapon, Raise Dead) all of which offter things that the ranger as a base class does not. Hell a paladin gets a flying mount before the flying mount ranger does!
This is why IMO its not really worth it to take ranger past 9th level....and only if the 8+ animal conjure animals is on the table. Otherwise I would drop at level 5 and go rogue and/or fighter or even cleric with the rest of your levels.
One of the consistent problems of Rangers over the various editions is the idea of their favored enemy, which often limits their usefulness. In the interest of that, here is a possible path for changing Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer in 5e to be more useful.
This feature would replace Favored Enemy, Natural Explorer and Foe Slayer and would be incompatible with Tasha’s Favored Foe and Deft Explorer for balance reasons.
Favored Prey
You have experience studying, tracking and hunting a certain type of enemy and in their environment.
Choose a type of favored prey: Survivalist, Bounty Hunter, Monster Slayer.
Survivalist - You count animals and humanoids living in tribal societies (such as orcs or barbarians) as your favored prey. You count forests, grasslands, mountain, tundra and desert as favored terrains for this feature.
Bounty Hunter - You count most humanoids who live in cities and other permanent settlements as your favored prey. You count urban and otherwise settled areas as your favored terrains for this feature.
Monster Slayer - You count magical monsters, outsiders, undead and anything not covered by Survivalist and Bounty Hunter as your favored prey. You count exotic locations such as the Underdark, not covered by Survivalist and Bounty Hunter as your favored terrain for this feature. You also count the lair of a magical monster (such as a dragon’s den) as your favored terrain if they have lair actions.
You have advantage on Wisdom (Survival) checks to track your favored enemies, as well as on Intelligence checks to recall information about them.
When in your favored terrain, you have advantage on initiative checks.
While traveling for an hour or more in your favored terrain, you gain the following benefits:
Difficult terrain doesn’t slow your group’s travel.
Your group can’t become lost except by magical means.
Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger.
If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.
When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would.
While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area.
You choose an additional favored prey at level 6 and 11.
Favored Prey 2
You have gained greater experience studying, tracking and hunting a certain type of enemy and in their environment.
Choose a new type of favored prey: Survivalist, Bounty Hunter, Monster Slayer.
You now have advantage on Wisdom and Intelligence saving throws against your favored enemies.
Favored Prey 3
You have gained even greater experience studying, tracking and hunting, and can now apply your knowledge and skills to any situation. Your perceptive nature lets you find weak spots in your enemies.
Choose the last type of favored prey: Survivalist, Bounty Hunter, Monster Slayer.
Note: This feature would make every enemy and terrain count as favored.
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, the creature takes extra [type?] damage equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1).
Prey’s Bane
Once on each of your turns, you can add your Wisdom modifier to the attack roll of an attack you make against one of your favored enemies. You can choose to use this feature before or after the roll, but before any effects of the roll are applied.
Explanation
The Ranger’s limitations on favored enemy and terrain is one of the drawbacks that makes it hard to utilize the features from a design standpoint. Making it so that each choice covers a broadly applicable set of enemies and terrains that is easy to tailor to a campaign makes this less of a problem for players and DMs, even more so when they become universal.
Advantage on saving throws might seem strong and it is, but the Paladin gets its Aura of Protection at the same level, so I think it can slide.
Finally, going into higher levels, this would give the Ranger a passive boost to damage through their Wisdom modifier at the same time as their Favored Prey ability becomes universal.
It would technically be possible to have +10 damage on weapon attacks at level 11 with this setup if you’re using shillelagh via the Druidic Warrior fighting style, but this would come at the cost of not getting archery, dueling or two weapon styles. It would also add to your bonus action economy, making it harder to use other Ranger spells like Hunter’s Mark.
Rangers building for Dex or Str would likely only have +2 or +3 Wis at this point, but would be incentivised to max it out before 20. I prefer it being a static bonus over a damage dice so it isn’t multiplied on a crit (normally anyway).
I do believe the bonus damage should come in the form of damage independent of the weapon being used for gameplay reasons. This is to strike a balance between it being applicable and resisted, which can’t really be done if it is simply using the damage type of the weapon, since magical physical damage is too rarely resisted.
Non-magical physical damage is arguably too commonly resisted for it to be a realistic choice, as are immunities to it. The same can be said for Poison.
Fire, Frost, Acid, Thunder and Radiant are arguably too “magical” in theme
Necrotic could work, having a nice balance between being resisted or not, while also kinda working as a “bleed” damage type.
Lightning could work, seeing as Lightning Arrow is a pretty iconic Ranger spell, but is arguably too “magical” as well and would be better suited to a storm-themed Ranger archetype.
SO it sounds like Toms opinion is the ranger can only be improved if it is "better" or equal than every thing you compare it too.
I for one value unique abilities. (including Level 20's capstone) if you feel like you want a build that doesn't miss you will probably go ranger. the Mat Colville stream has a good example of creatures that are protected unless they get hit by a certain magic arrow and the group had exactly 3. lore around certain rakshasas is the same a specific silver arrow is the only way to truly destroy them. Also just like how tasha's gives the option not the requirement to switch up certain ranger abilities to mix and match a good build. some one in the past has told me they thought the fact that ranger can multi-class out with out loosing too much(their opinions not mine) is a good thing not a bad one. same with limited use poisons. if you use posion on an arrow you want it to hit rather than risk being destroyed.(50/50 chances)
I think in order to improve the ranger. I think the understanding of raw wording is the problem. too many dms (and sometimes players) use terms and odd wording as justification to deny abilities use. Also the lack of community wide standards for skills and tools and the benefits. inconsistent adventure design from wizards of the coast is also a problem.(allowing any class to nature check on chult plants deliberately undermines the class. and is inconsistent with the rules for ranger)
SO it sounds like Toms opinion is the ranger can only be improved if it is "better" or equal than every thing you compare it too.
I for one value unique abilities. (including Level 20's capstone) if you feel like you want a build that doesn't miss you will probably go ranger. the Mat Colville stream has a good example of creatures that are protected unless they get hit by a certain magic arrow and the group had exactly 3. lore around certain rakshasas is the same a specific silver arrow is the only way to truly destroy them. Also just like how tasha's gives the option not the requirement to switch up certain ranger abilities to mix and match a good build. some one in the past has told me they thought the fact that ranger can multi-class out with out loosing too much(their opinions not mine) is a good thing not a bad one. same with limited use poisons. if you use posion on an arrow you want it to hit rather than risk being destroyed.(50/50 chances)
I think in order to improve the ranger. I think the understanding of raw wording is the problem. too many dms (and sometimes players) use terms and odd wording as justification to deny abilities use. Also the lack of community wide standards for skills and tools and the benefits. inconsistent adventure design from wizards of the coast is also a problem.(allowing any class to nature check on chult plants deliberately undermines the class. and is inconsistent with the rules for ranger)
....and that is bad design by WotC.
We have come full circle!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
First, Drizzit is not a ranger by his progression or history. He was trained as a Drow warrior and spent his early years and career as a fighter. When he left Menzo he went a bit nuts - that’s the barbarian and rage. He finally “found himself” and his rangerhood when he got to the surface. He may think of himself as a ranger but he is still learning to be one. In earlier editions the spells came later so his not casting is much less of a problem. He has the basic survival skills of a ranger true, but he is and always will be a fighter first and foremost.
second, many of the L6-20 skills take on a very different value when you actually think (and play) in terms of real outdoor adventuring not timewarped travel to the dungeon and back with all the play time in the dungeon. Take Vanish in the dungeon the only piece that has an impact is the bonus action hide and it’s pretty weak I agree. But if your actually doing overland maybe with opponents trying to find and stop you the rest of vanish is suddenly very useful and important. Can’t be tracked by non magical means unless I want to be? Big since I can now hide the party, set false tracks and then vanish leading the party out of traps and combats and to the destination. The problem isn’t the ability - it’s the way everyone has been playing. The ability when the outdoor leg is real is very strong, when it’s not it’s weak and yes maybe you want to be a fighter 11/rogue 9/Druid 8 instead.
so which abilities do I think are better? Really all of them if I can play the ranger even close to the way it’s supposed to be played - outdoors during the travel to and from the dungeon with dragons, yarn ti, bugbears etc actually out and about and hunting for prey etc.
The problem isn’t the ranger it’s the style of play.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
As we saw in the table a L20 ranger is second only to a L20 fighter in terms ov overall long term damage done - and that is the castr*ted version.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Maybe your DMs nerf their invisible creatures, but mine don't. I've never in my life been just allowed to know where invisible things are without a Perception/Investigation check, and none of my DMs have ever violated the RAW in demanding said check.
I will do so tomorrow.
It is RAW you can target a creature/know it's location without a check....
They don't auto hide just because they are invisible....
Drizzt is still the most iconic Ranger in the series, though a lot of his disconnect with the class comes from being a Ranger in earlier editions when Rangers were a lot more like Fighter archetypes than its own class.
So your point is that Vanish is good when running a part of the game that is both underplayed and, as far as I can tell, very much underdeveloped mechanically? Yeah, you're not selling me on that one being worth more than 9 levels in Fighter, Rogue or Druid. I don't even think Vanish is bad, because hide on bonus action is fine, just underwhelming when you can have Cunning Action much earlier. Access to Pass Without Trace at level 5 also makes Vanish seem like less of a big deal. Vanish really should've been a T2 ability where it could shine a bit more.
The problem the Ranger has, fundamentally, is how front loaded it is and how it doesn't really scale much in combat after level 5. Giving them a passive boost to damage (I suggest rolling an additional die on weapon attacks, kinda like a Paladin adds 1d8 radiant with Improved Divine Smite) and some more universally useful out of combat abilities would solve the multiclass problem.
You could say I am focusing too much on combat, but D&D is a combat ruleset at its core and Rangers are a warrior class, so combat should be a priority for their design.
A Ranger using Foe Slayer against a nerfed Barbarian, using neither Rage nor Reckless Attack as far as I can tell. Because of Reckless Attack, Barbarians have advantage on demand, drastically increasing their accuracy on all attacks, not just one attack per turn. That's why they are so good with Great Weapon Master. Assuming 65% hit chance, advantage increases that to 87.75%, which is a massive boost to consistent damage. Even higher with Primal Champion, since the +2 turns 65% to 75%.
These are some theoretical numbers, based around 65% base accuracy. Let's do a dual wielding Gloom Stalker, an archery Gloom Stalker and a 2h Barbarian. I will run the Stalker with advantage between Umbral Sight and Guardian of Nature. This prevents Hunter's Mark, but advantage is generally a lot better. I'll also run one for Swift Quiver.
+3 weapons, max primary stats (Dex & Wis for Ranger, Str for Barb) for base +8 (Ranger) and +14 (Raging Barb) damage per hit.
Barb & archer Stalker effective accuracy: 93.75% with advantage
DW Stalker: 87.75% with advantage
Stalker's Flurry gives +1 attack when missing, so I will assume Stalkers have 1 non-Dread Ambush attack (since we lose the +1d8 if we miss) with 100% accuracy since 65% becomes ~98.5% and 75% becomes ~99.7%
Foe Slayer: Also turns into 1 attack at 100% since 90% (65+25) with advantage gives 1% miss chance.
Both Foe Slayer and Flurry are made 100% out of convenience since the margin of error is so small.
I'm not using feats or crits, again for simplicity. These are ballpark numbers. This is a significant nerf to barbarians, who would in all likelihood combine Great Weapon Master and Pole Arm Master.
This is about as optimal as I can make it for Rangers, so let's see how they do.
Archer: Nature
Round 1: 2 regular attacks at 100% + Dread Ambush Attack. Bonus Action: Guardian of Nature: Tree Form (Concentration)
Avg: (1d8+8 x 2) + (2d8 + 8 x 93.75%) = 23 + 15,9375 = 38,9375
Round 2 onward: 2 attacks at 100%
Avg: 23
Archer: Swift
Round 1: 2 regular attacks at 100% + Dread Ambush Attack. Bonus Action: Swift Quiver (Concentration) / Note: Assuming advantage during ambush
Avg: (1d8+8 x 2) + (2d8 + 8 x 93.75%) = 23 + 15,9375 = 38,9375
Round 2 onward: 4 regular attacks. / Note: Assuming 2 with advantage, since you won't always have it without Guardian of Nature. Assuming Flurry triggers on a non-advantage attack for the largest increase in accuracy, effectively turning it to 3 attacks with advantage.
Avg: (1d8+8 x 3) x 93.75% + (1d8 + 8 x 75%) = 33,28125 + 9,375 = 42,65625
DW:
Round 1: 2 regular attacks at 100% + Dread Ambush Attack. Bonus Action: Guardian of Nature: Tree Form (Concentration)
Avg: (1d6+8 x 2) + (1d6 + 1d8 + 8 x 93.75%) = 21 + 15 = 36
Round 2 onward: 2 regular attacks at 100% + off-hand attack
Avg: 21 + (1d6 + 8 x 93.75%) = 21 + 10,78125 = 31,78125
Barb:
Round 1 onwards: 2 attacks, Bonus Action: Rage
Avg: (2d6 + 14 x 2) x 93,75% = 38,4375
Zealot: 1d6+10 radiant or necrotic 1/turn at 93.75%: +12,65625 / Note: Could be rounded up to 100% for the same reason Flurry and Slayer could. If so: +13.5
Berserker: +(2d6+14) x 93.75% = +19,6875
So with fairly ideal situations, only ranged Stalkers using Swift Quiver can outperform a basic Barbarian and even then they fall quite far behind the moment the barb is allowed to use one of its damage oriented subclasses.
Fun bonus: Stalker 5/ Swashbuckler 15, dual wielder
3 attacks per round at 65% accuracy, giving Sneak Attack an effective accuracy of 95.7125%. No spells, advantage or anything.
Avg: (1d6 + 8 x 3) x 65% + (8d6 x 95.7125%) = 22,425 + 26,7995 = 49,2245
Of course, all of these numbers assume level 20, so we would have to run some numbers on how these classes compare at various points in the game. But you're right the comparison was with the nerfed version; the nerfed Barbarian, that is. Even these numbers are nerfed, because they'd definitely use GWM and PAM to maximize damage.
Of course, even this is very generous to the Ranger, because Foe Slayer is a very limited ability. If you use Tasha's, you can't use a concentration spell with Favored Foe, tossing out both Guardian of Nature and Swift Quiver. And if you're using Favored Enemy, you better hope you're fighting one of the 3 types you have.
Thank you for the work outs on damage very impressive and useful going full out in the final battle it looks like the “average” Ranger is number 3 in damage which , to my mind is actually fine. He does top tier but not top spot damage. His spells help with some area combat control or to help boost damage as you showed. And his stealth and movement allow him to get flanking compared to the fighter and barbarian giving him advantage much of the time as well in melee which helps too. I agree that the ranger is nerfed - just not by the abilities which work for him in a full on campaign. Are they always on? Not all but neither are most abilities for other classes as well. His martial skills put him at about 85-90% of the fighter, his spells put him at @65% of the Druid and his stealth and movement put him at about 40% of the rogue and 25% of the monk. That’s actually an incredibly powerful single character. If you play him as just a fighter then yes he isn’t quite full on, same for a Druid/cleric and especially for a rogue/monk. He is nerfed in his home terrain (the wilderness) because the game is nerfed there. But looked at properly he is actually the strongest class in the game. To match a L20 Ranger you need (very roughly) a L18 fighter/barbarian, a L10 Druid, and a L5 rogue or monk. This is why I say most folks that play and like the ranger may not be playing him right ( including me sometimes) because we play them as almost a pure fighter and tend to forget the spells and other abilities because we aren’t where they are at their greatest effect often.
if you look at each level and the abilities you start to see what I mean:
L6: 2nd favored enemy (or third) or Roving: +5 speed and a swimming and climbing speed. The favored enemy helps combat eventually as does the 5’ move bonus but the speeds don’t seem to be doing much until you read about underwater combat where having a swim speed nullifies the disadvantage with most weapons and suddenly it has a bigger impact. Climbing isn’t as obvious but even most rogues don’t have a climbing speed without a magic item.
L7: by archetype:
Hunter: escape the horde/multi attack defense/steel will - one for the movement ranger, one for the stay put melee ranger and one for the rest. Call it 25% less chance to be hit as your moving around - big for a movement based melee ranger especially against multiple foes. A +4 to AC to follow up attacks from a single foe each round - not to shabby if your tanking. Advantage vs fear effects ok it’s not immunity but fear effects are probably the most used or second most used enchantments and party disruptions used so it’s not exactly weak for anyone.
Beast master: the dash/disengage/help actions change from being an action to being a bonus action and the companions attacks are now magical. Improved action economy giving you back your 2 attacks and the beast’s attacks work at full strength against basically everything not too shabby actually.
Gloomstalker: iron mind- proficiency with wisdom saves meaning you are no proficient with 50-60% of all saves instead of 30-40% and your proficient against not jus fear but also charms.
Horizon Walker: a 1 turn Etherealness spell without using a spellslot once per rest. Allowing you full movement thru difficult terrain or even walls/floors/ceilings etc. if it were longer it would be great for scouting but it’s still useful for escapes and checking out locked/trapped doors since you can see into the prime but the prime can’t sense you. an add in to ranger sneakiness.
Monster hunter: supernatural defense: +1D6 added to saves and grapple escapes vs slayers preyed foes - +1D6 against your main foe in the battle (+3 on average) not exactly a bad help.
Fey wanderer-beguiling twist: advantage vs charms & fears and you have a chance to flip the spell onto someone else ( like the clown that tried it on you or his bodyguard etc.
Swarm keeper - writhing tide: 1 minute of flight PB times per restmore movement is never bad.
Drakewarden - Bond of fang and scale: the drake can fly, you can ride the drake but not if it’s flying, drake does 1D6 more damage and you and the drake gain resistance to its energy type 4 very nice features.
either a special movement or resistance/advantage to major save problems when does the fighter get either as a non feat feature?
L8) ASI and lands stride. The ASI is an obvious big deal, Landstride is a a big deal if the game actually includes cross country movement. If not the game nerfed the ranger again.
L9) 3 rd level spells, 2 L3 slots and one new spell. (Conjure animals, conjure barrage, protection from energy) if you don’t value the ranger’s spell casting then this is nothing, if you do this is major.
L10) tireless ( temp HP and exhaustion removal) or the 3rd terrain type. The terrain type is important and the temp HP are nice but yes this is weaker one. You should be getting more terrain types but this your last one so you best make it count.
I could go on but this illustrates my points - in a full on campaign with all 3 legs done right the features the ranger gets are strong features, the problem isn’t the ranger it’s the game management and maybe the way folks play the game because of the mismanagement.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yes, my table should have come with the disclaimer that it was purely there to determine the effectiveness of the Level 20 Suite of Abilities™ for Ranger, Barbarian, and Fighter [Foe Slayer, Primal Champion, and Extra Attack(3)]. For that I had to use a deliberately nerfed baseline character.
What it showed was that against a favoured enemy, Foe Slayer is actually very good, better in fact than Primal Champion on pure damage alone, however against a non favoured enemy it adds nothing. What is difficult to quantify is how often it gets used. You ultimately only get 3* selections from 14* choices (I'm saying if you pick humanoid that's covering all humanoids for this argument because it is too much to comprehend otherwise) so, at a minimum you're active three fourteenths of the time. Now, narratively it makes sense for a Ranger to hunt down their favoured enemies, so that brings your baseline up, and if in a party then that brings it down as other people have other agendas, but I think it fair to say, for the sake of an argument, that in combats that matter you might be active 50% of the time, which is still a significant boost.
I am working on a table with more details, but it is taking longer than expected, basically rebuilding all the work I did yesterday as I threw it together in a hurry.
If people want to provide an ideal build for Ranger, Barbarian, and Fighter and tell me how it works (I'm not really interested these days in building characters with combat effectiveness foremost in my mind, so you can likely build something way better than I) then I can try to check the overall damage output (please bear in mind that I'm not a mathematician so if it gets too complex I'll not be able to do it). If you're building for Nova potential it won't work because how do I tell how many Novas you get over x rounds (currently running 400, but pretty certain someone is going to throw something my way that will make me have to do more)?
Updated table, for those interested.
I'm not convinced Ranger is #3 on this list, because I've not seen anyone run Paladin numbers under comparable circumstances. They are also harder to directly compare, because they deal more burst and less sustain than the other martial classes. And in my experience, burst is more valuable point for point than sustain because a dead creature takes no actions. There is also the matter of other classes coming into the mix. Here are some hastily thrown together numbers.
Lvl 20, +3 weapons, max primary stat for everyone.
Scout Rogue:
Between Ambush Master and Sudden Strike, we assume 1 full attack with advantage that triggers Sneak Attack per turn. Again an avg 65% accuracy or 87.75% when accounting for the advantage.
Shortbow +3, 20 Dex, 10d6 Sneak Attack
(1d6 + 8 + 10d6) x 87.75% = 39,92625
That's almost 40 avg dmg every turn, without expending a single resource. Swashbucklers can match these numbers, thanks to Rakish Audacity.
Arcane Tricksters can do something similar with their Mage Hand and Find Familiar shennanigans, not to mention their access to spells like Shadowblade or Booming Blade.
Versatile Trickster lets you use a bonus action to make the Mage Hand give you advantage, so with a rapier +3 and Booming Blades, we have this:
(1d8 + 8 + 3d8 + 10d6) x 87.75% = (12.5 + 13.5 + 35) x 87.75% = 53,5275
Add on an additional 4d8 if they trigger Booming Blade's secondary damage.
Vengeance Paladin:
When a Vengeance Paladin goes nova, it has automatic advantage on attacks thanks to Vow of Emnity and will also have advantage against fightened enemies while Avenging Angel mode. Soul of Vengeance also makes attacks of opportunity very common against your Vow of Emnity target, effectively giving you 3 attacks per turn.
+3 greatsword, 20 Strength, Improved Divine Smite, Vow of Emnity
(2d6 + 8 + 1d8) x 3 at 87.75% = 58,5 x 87,75% = 51,33375
This uses your Channel Divinity which is just a short rest resource, but no spellslots, so add anything from 2d8 to 6d8 for Smite. We can also use their spell list to push the sustain further, using Divine Favor, Bless, Hunter's Mark or Haste.
Standard Blastlock: Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast, Hex
(1d10 + 5 + 1d6) x 4 at 65% = 56 x 65% = 36.4
Let's look at how a Stalker progresses from level 5 to 20.
Archer:
Level 5: Hunter's Mark, Archery style, Gloom Stalker, +1 longbow, 18 Dex
Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambusher, Bonus Action: Mark / Note: Assuming 1 attack with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it
(1d8 + 5 + 1d6) x 93.75% + (1d8 + 5 + 1d6) x 75% + (2d8 + 5 + 1d6) at 75% = 12,1875 + 9,75 + 13,125 = 35,0625
Round 2 onward: 21,9375
You then, more or less, stagnate in damage until level 11, beyond getting 20 Dex and maybe a +2 bow. I'll assume a +1 bow for 11 and +2 for 13.
Level 11: Hunter's Mark, Archery style, Gloom Stalker, +1 longbow, 20 Dex, Flurry
Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambusher, Hunter's Mark / Note: Assuming 1 attack with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry
(1d8 + 6 + 1d6 x 2) x 93.75% + (2d8 + 6 + 1d6) at 75% = 28,125 + 13,875 = 42
Round 2 onwards: 28,125
Level 13: Guardian of Nature, Archery style, Gloom Stalker, +2 longbow, 20 Dex, Flurry
Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambusher, Guardian of Nature / Assuming 2 attacks at 100% due to Umbral Sight and Flurry, because of the small margin of error of 98+% accuracy not being worth calculating unless there is a photo finish. Dread Ambusher with advantage.
(1d8 + 7) x 2 + (2d8 + 7) x 93.75% = 23 + 15 = 38 / Note: Did not expect that. Guardian of Nature is a worse damage spell for archery Stalkers than Hunter's Mark. Meaning that Stalkers stagnate from 11 to 17 in terms of damage.
Round 2 onwards: 23
Level 17: Swift Quiver, Archery style, Gloom Stalker, +3 longbow, 20 Dex, Flurry
Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambusher, Bonus Action: Swift Quiver / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry.
(1d8 + 8) x 2 at 93,75% + (2d8 + 8) x 75% = 23,4375 + 12,75 = 36,1875
Round 2 onwards: 4 attacks / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry.
(1d8 + 8) x 3 at 93,75% + (1d8 + 8) x 75% = 35,15625 + 9,375 = 44,53125 / Note: Looks like I need to redo the Foe Slayer too, since adding it to an attack without advantage gives a much better overall accuracy
Level 20: Swift Quiver, Archery style, Gloom Stalker, +3 longbow, 20 Dex, Flurry, Foe Slayer
Round 1: Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambusher, Bonus Action: Swift Quiver / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry. Assuming +5 damage for one attack thanks to Foe Slayer
(1d8 + 8) at 93,75% + (1d8 + 13) at 93,75% + (2d8 + 8) x 75% = 11,71875 + 16,40625 + 12,75 = 40,875
Round 2 onwards: 4 attacks. / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry. Assuming 90% accuracy for 4th attack thanks to Foe Slayer
(1d8 + 8) x 3 at 93,75% + (1d8 + 8) at 90% = 35,15625 + 11,25 = 46,40625
So a bit more optimization does put the damage to better levels, though still behind other damage oriented classes.
Dual wielder
Level 5: Hunter's Mark, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +1 shortswords/scimitars, 18 Dex
Rounds 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambush, BA: Mark / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight rounded down since you won't always have it
(2d6 + 5) at 87,75% + (2d6 + 5) at 65% + (2d6 + 5 + 1d8) at 65% = 10,53 + 7,8 + 10,725 = 29,055
Round 2 onwards: 3 attacks
(2d6 + 5) at 87,75% + (2d6 + 5 x 2) at 65% = 26,13
Level 11: Hunter's Mark, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +1 shortswords/scimitars, 20 Dex, Flurry
Rounds 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambush, BA: Mark / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight rounded down since you won't always have it + 1 from Flurry
(2d6 +6) x 2 at 87,75% + (2d6 + 6 + 1d8) at 65% = 22,815 + 11,375 = 34,19
Round 2 onwards: 3 attacks
(2d6 + 6) x 2 at 87,75% + (2d6 + 6) at 65% = 22,815 + 8,45 = 31,265
Level 13: Guardian of Nature, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +2 shortswords/scimitars, 20 Dex, Flurry
Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambush, BA: Guardian / Assuming 2 attacks at 100% due to Umbral Sight and Flurry, everything else with advantage
(1d6 + 7) x 2 + (1d6 + 7 + 1d8) at 87,75% = 14 + 13,1625 = 27,1625
Round 2 onwards: 14 + 9,21375 = 23,21375
Note: Gloom Stalkers should apparently use Hunter's Mark instead o Guardian of Nature most of the time. Neat.
This does mean that there isn't much progression in a dual wielding Stalker's damage from level 11 to 19 though. Let's run Foe Slayer + Hunter's Mark
Level 20: Hunter's Mark, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +3 shortswords/scimitars, 20 Dex, Flurry, Foe Slayer
Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambush, BA: Mark / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight rounded down since you won't always have it + 1 from Flurry. Assuming last attack has 90% accuracy due to Foe Slayer.
(2d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (2d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 90% = 26,325 + 17,55 = 43,875
Round 2 onwards: 3 attacks
(2d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (2d6 + 8) at 90% = 26,325 + 13,5 = 39,825
Note: Every time we have to reapply Hunter's Mark we lose up to 1/3 of our damage on round 2 and onwards due to Bonus Action bloat and that dual wielding gets a it shafted in general. No good feats to improve it either, since the dual wielder feat is a minor damage increase. ~2 to ~2,5 when accounting for accuracy.
Level 20: Favored Foe, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +3 shortswords/scimitars, 20 Dex, Flurry, Foe Slayer
3 attacks per round, assuming 50% with advantage and 1 with 90% from Flurry, Umbral Sight and Foe Slayer effectively.
Round 1: (1d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (1d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 90%% + (1d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 87,75% = 20,1825 + 14,4 + 14,04 = 48,6225
Round 2 onwards: (1d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (1d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 90%% = 20,1825 + 14,4 = 34,5825
Looks like a dual wielder is better off using Favored Foe than Favored Enemy because you avoid the constant problem of target switching, even though you would deal slightly less damage on the 3rd round against a singular target. At least until your 6 uses runs out, since you can't transfer it to a new target.
All of these numbers use the same basic assumptions as the previous ones. Rogues, Barbarians and Paladins deal more damage while expending less resources than a Ranger. Rangers are dependant on 4th and 5th level spellsfor damage even when we use Stalker. And Fighters are ahead of them all. At best, Rangers are #5 when it comes to damage.
These numbers are also exceptionally lenient with the Ranger, while not giving the other classes the benefit of the doubt. We are assuming
1) that we're fighting our Favored Enemy, which is a choice of 3 of 14 at most (less if we account for the various humanoids) and heavily DM reliant. Dual wielding Stalkers can be less DM dependent (yay!), but also does significantly worse overall (boo!) and Favored Foe will run out a lot quicker than Favored Enemy will, effectively tanking the Stalker's damageback to lvl 17 values either way.
2) that we won't have problems with concentration, which a Ranger almost certainly will. Since we have no class features to help with concentration, even 1 point of damage will on average have between 30% (16 con) and 35% (14 con) chance to knock off our buff. So it is borderline mandatory to pick up both Resillience: Constitution and/or War Caster to address this, which does limit our build quite a lot. We do want 20 in both Dex and Wis at level 20, after all.
Conclusion: Unless someone can show a Ranger build that is notably stronger than Gloom Stalker for damage, a Ranger in the most ideal situations is still notably behind the other martials, while also lacking those classes' strong defensive traits. It can barely push ahead of some Rogues, but even that goes out the window against an Arcane Trickster using a blade cantrip.
Are the Rangers terrible? No, but they aren't really in a good spot either. Their utility is primarily geared towards an underdeveloped part of the game and they lag behind other martial classes in combat, even when expending more resources. They also tend to benefit more from multiclassing than staying in their own class, which is certainly a sign of poor high level abilities.
Do Rangers need to be top damage dealer? No, but I think a passive boost to their damage in T3 is warranted. Something like rolling 2 dice instead of 1 for weapon damage. Let's just plop in those numbers for dual wielding and archer Stalkers:
Weapon Master Ranger: +1 damage dice on weapon attacks.
Foe Slayer:
Level 20: Hunter's Mark, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +3 shortswords/scimitars, 20 Dex, Flurry, Foe Slayer
Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambush, BA: Mark / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight rounded down since you won't always have it + 1 from Flurry. Assuming last attack has 90% accuracy due to Foe Slayer.
(3d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (3d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 90% = 32,4675 + 20,7 = 53,1675
Round 2 onwards: 3 attacks
(3d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (3d6 + 8) at 90% = 32,4675 + 16,65 = 49,1175
Level 20: Favored Foe, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +3 shortswords/scimitars, 20 Dex, Flurry, Foe Slayer
3 attacks per round, assuming 50% with advantage and 1 with 90% from Flurry, Umbral Sight and Foe Slayer effectively.
Round 1: (2d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (2d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 90%% + (2d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 87,75% = 26,325 + 17,55 + 17,11125 = 60,98625
Round 2 onwards: (2d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (2d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 90%% = 26,325 + 17,55 = 43,875
Level 20: Swift Quiver, Archery style, Gloom Stalker, +3 longbow, 20 Dex, Flurry, Foe Slayer
Round 1: Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambusher, Bonus Action: Swift Quiver / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry. Assuming +5 damage for one attack thanks to Foe Slayer
(2d8 + 8) at 93,75% + (2d8 + 13) at 93,75% + (3d8 + 8) x 75% = 15,9375 + 20,625 + 16,125 = 52,6875
Round 2 onwards: 4 attacks. / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry. Assuming 90% accuracy for 4th attack thanks to Foe Slayer
(2d8 + 8) x 3 at 93,75% + (2d8 + 8) at 90% = 47,8125 + 15,3 = 63,1125
Without Foe Slayer:
Hunter's Mark, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +3 shortswords/scimitars, 20 Dex, Flurry
Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambush, BA: Mark / Assuming 2 attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight and Flurry.
(3d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (3d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 65% = 32,4675 + 14,95 = 47,4175
Round 2 onwards: 3 attacks
(3d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (3d6 + 8) at 65% = 32,4675 + 12,025 = 44,4925
Favored Foe, TWF style, Gloom Stalker, +3 shortswords/scimitars, 20 Dex, Flurry
4-3 attacks per round, assuming 3-2 with advantage from Flurry and Umbral Sight
Round 1: (2d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (2d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 65%% + (2d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 87,75% = 26,325 + 12,675 + 17,11125 = 56,11125
Round 2 onwards: (2d6 + 8) x 2 at 87,75% + (2d6 + 8 + 1d8) at 65%% = 26,325 + 12,675 = 39
Swift Quiver, Archery style, Gloom Stalker, +3 longbow, 20 Dex, Flurry
Round 1: 2 attacks, Dread Ambusher, Bonus Action: Swift Quiver / Assuming 1 attack with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry.
(2d8 + 8) x 2 at 93,75% + (3d8 + 8) x 75% = 31,875 + 16,125 = 48
Round 2 onwards: 4 attacks / Assuming 50% of total attacks with advantage from Umbral Sight since you won't always have it and 1 from Flurry.
(2d8 + 8) x 3 at 93,75% + (2d8 + 8) x 75% = 47,8125 + 12,75 = 60,5625
Maybe a bit strong, but the power mostly lies with archers and I do think it is compensated for by having very little defensive utility compared to the other martial classes and a high rosk of losing concentration. It is also on very limited resources.
Very nice. Including 26+ AC might be misleading, however, since the highest AC of published monsters I can find is 25.
I love how you use the most damage dealing paladin subclass and account for its short rest ability and once a day ability for sustained damage but don’t account for the action and bonus action it takes on the first turn (no damage that turn) to turn these on. And then assume an extra attack each turn which is not sound. You also need to cover the gap as a melee fighter. Bad numbers. Should be more like 32.53 over three round with hunter’s mark and enmity and Angel
Giving rogues advantage on all attacks from hiding when at level 20 is generous and that is easily overcome and rangers can do the same thing. Even so, I have a rogue more like 38.92 assuming advantage from hiding about 50% of the time
A hunter using only hunter’s mark is doing 35.7 with only hunter’s mark and no advantage. And that is against only one target. Any ranger’s damage go way up when groups of enemies are in play. Especially the hunter. Also, go ahead and add a 3rd level smite once over 3 rounds for the paladin and let the ranger use plant growth, hail of thorns, or conjure animals. All game changers. Cover, damage, hit point soak, restrained, prone, poison, AoE damage, canceled movement.
Actually, only Vow of Emnity is needed. Avenging Angel isn't necessary if you have Vow available, since both give advantage on attacks. The additional attack comes from their level 15 feature which gives them an attack of opportunity if their Vow target makes an attack within the Paladin's range, which most enemies tend to do.
And of course I look at a damage oriented Paladin; I am comparing it to a damage oriented Ranger.
I am not though. I assume advantage because both Scout and Swashbuckler can Sneak Attack without advantage and attack twice. Arcane Tricksters can also produce their own advantage on demand with their level 13 feature or by combining a readied action with a familiar. Owls are great for this, being immune to attacks of opportunity. Shadowblade also provides its own advantage.
How about you do your own leg work?
But here is an unfortunate feature of D&D; multitargetting tend to be less valuable than focused fire for martial characters because they lack the massive damage numbers casters can put out. Let's say we have a Hunter and compare Colossus Slayer to Horde Breaker. Horde Breaker is potentially +1 attack per turn at level 3, which is really nice, but it has a pretty small area of effect. Makes sense, it is a T1 ability after all. You attack 2 creatures and deal damage (yay!), but they both survive (boo!) and can take their turns as normal.
Now let's reset the situation and you have Colossus Slayer (or any of its variants really). You only attack 1 creature, but the bonus damage triggers. You dealt less damage overall, but now one of those creatures is dead instead of damaged and can't take their turn. Even though the focused damage did less on paper, it did more in practice. Multitargetting also tend to just not do anything when fighting strong monsters meant to take on the party by themselves.
The tables are nice and I do appreciate all the work that went into them but, whether the ranger is the biggest damage dealer ( it clearly isn’t) or only number 3/4/5 it’s really the point. It’s a big league damage dealer in the same ball park with the others. It’s a decathalete competing with the world class sprinters and right in there in the mix. And then when the race is over it goes over to the long jump pit and competes with them and does well then the high jump etc it may not medal in any individual event but it’s clearly the best overall because of all the different things it does. The problem is much more misperception and mismanagement of the game than the actual abilities unless you are trying to play it as just another fighter or claiming a different class with a ranger dip is the same as a full on ranger.
also the AC 25+ is there since I pointed out that end story bbeg could easily be using magic items on top of these big starting ACs try taking on an ancient red dragon wearing bracers, a ring of protection and a cloak of displacement - have fun😳😁🤡
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I've mentioned several times that the Rangers are "fine" mechanically, if you're using the better archetypes and the various spells added to the mix. But a key part of the problem they have is that they have few high level abilities worth more than multiclassing which is precisely why I want some better high level abilities. A carrot for staying pure class compared to multiclassing. A passive boost to damage in T3 would be the most universally useful way to do it.
So are we attacking a single big target here or more targets? Here is another unfortunate feature of D&D, doing 55 damage to a target with 5 hp only does 5 damage. These comparisons are only against something that is taking this damage 100%. So if we use the old “a dead creature is better” let’s assume we can kill these creatures, and therefore are NOT dealing 100% damage. If we are dealing with one big creature, that’s fine, and the vengeance paladin and a rogue will do well. If there is a small horde, those two classes/subclass won’t do as well.
You are still going to need to account for the paladin being in melee, not NOT flying as you didn’t want to use their level 20 ability. You also need to account for what else a rogue isn’t being to the table for combats. AoE, healing, hp pool, control, assisting other party members. You have a class that does one thing, albeit effectively, which is single target damage, and nothing else. A ranger can lock down enemies from moving, deal very good damage against small and medium groups of enemies with a very tight focus, blockout the battlefield and have advantage in all attacks while taking any advantage away from everyone else, and bring extra bodies to the fight for a menagerie of strategical and tactical benefits.
So a 3 round combat is V paladin 59.03, a rogue with advantage in every hit is doing 48.03, and a hunter is doing 35.7, each of them against a single big target taking 100% of all of this damage. I know the umbers look good for the other two over the ranger, but the assumptions are bad and in their favor. Once we step out of the white room of combat, the ranger overtakes them in all other situations except single target damage.
Agreed....once you get Conjure Animals its not really worth it to keep going IMO.
Pretty much any spell you get at 4th or 5th level is not likely to be worth using your concentration for over Conjure Animals most of the time....better to just use your higher slots to upcast.
Swift Quiver keeps coming up but its only at best a d8+15 damage (Assuming sharpshooter and not using a handcrossbow).
This is one more attack than you would normally get if you just used CBE and used your concentration for a better spell.....like conjure animals.
Even if the DM Screws you and gives you 0 CR creatures you are still putting out more damage than the extra attack from swift quiver as 16 0 CR creatures will put out between 40 (AC 15) to 20 (AC 20) points of damage per turn with the option to use a help action instead and give ADV on up to 16 creatures to attack. Also its area control as the creatures would need to use a disengage or eat a ton of attacks of opportunity. And if they burn through your conjures? Thats as good as a healing spell as they spent an attack destroying the summons instead of you.
The only reason to NOT take it is if your DM hates minionmancy and decides that 16 creatures is too much....something I agree with TBH. Then ranger's damage potential drops off hard after 9th level but still keeps up. Once the fighter gets that third attack and is using the damage feats it gets a bit out of reach for ranger in terms of pure damage. The rest of the martials are about in line but get better higher level features IMO.....Paladins get some amazing higher level spells (Find Greater Steed, Circle of Power, Holy Weapon, Raise Dead) all of which offter things that the ranger as a base class does not. Hell a paladin gets a flying mount before the flying mount ranger does!
This is why IMO its not really worth it to take ranger past 9th level....and only if the 8+ animal conjure animals is on the table. Otherwise I would drop at level 5 and go rogue and/or fighter or even cleric with the rest of your levels.
Some alternate features.
One of the consistent problems of Rangers over the various editions is the idea of their favored enemy, which often limits their usefulness. In the interest of that, here is a possible path for changing Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer in 5e to be more useful.
This feature would replace Favored Enemy, Natural Explorer and Foe Slayer and would be incompatible with Tasha’s Favored Foe and Deft Explorer for balance reasons.
Favored Prey
You have experience studying, tracking and hunting a certain type of enemy and in their environment.
Choose a type of favored prey: Survivalist, Bounty Hunter, Monster Slayer.
Survivalist - You count animals and humanoids living in tribal societies (such as orcs or barbarians) as your favored prey. You count forests, grasslands, mountain, tundra and desert as favored terrains for this feature.
Bounty Hunter - You count most humanoids who live in cities and other permanent settlements as your favored prey. You count urban and otherwise settled areas as your favored terrains for this feature.
Monster Slayer - You count magical monsters, outsiders, undead and anything not covered by Survivalist and Bounty Hunter as your favored prey. You count exotic locations such as the Underdark, not covered by Survivalist and Bounty Hunter as your favored terrain for this feature. You also count the lair of a magical monster (such as a dragon’s den) as your favored terrain if they have lair actions.
You have advantage on Wisdom (Survival) checks to track your favored enemies, as well as on Intelligence checks to recall information about them.
When in your favored terrain, you have advantage on initiative checks.
While traveling for an hour or more in your favored terrain, you gain the following benefits:
You choose an additional favored prey at level 6 and 11.
Favored Prey 2
You have gained greater experience studying, tracking and hunting a certain type of enemy and in their environment.
Choose a new type of favored prey: Survivalist, Bounty Hunter, Monster Slayer.
You now have advantage on Wisdom and Intelligence saving throws against your favored enemies.
Favored Prey 3
You have gained even greater experience studying, tracking and hunting, and can now apply your knowledge and skills to any situation. Your perceptive nature lets you find weak spots in your enemies.
Choose the last type of favored prey: Survivalist, Bounty Hunter, Monster Slayer.
Note: This feature would make every enemy and terrain count as favored.
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, the creature takes extra [type?] damage equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1).
Prey’s Bane
Once on each of your turns, you can add your Wisdom modifier to the attack roll of an attack you make against one of your favored enemies. You can choose to use this feature before or after the roll, but before any effects of the roll are applied.
Explanation
The Ranger’s limitations on favored enemy and terrain is one of the drawbacks that makes it hard to utilize the features from a design standpoint. Making it so that each choice covers a broadly applicable set of enemies and terrains that is easy to tailor to a campaign makes this less of a problem for players and DMs, even more so when they become universal.
Advantage on saving throws might seem strong and it is, but the Paladin gets its Aura of Protection at the same level, so I think it can slide.
Finally, going into higher levels, this would give the Ranger a passive boost to damage through their Wisdom modifier at the same time as their Favored Prey ability becomes universal.
It would technically be possible to have +10 damage on weapon attacks at level 11 with this setup if you’re using shillelagh via the Druidic Warrior fighting style, but this would come at the cost of not getting archery, dueling or two weapon styles. It would also add to your bonus action economy, making it harder to use other Ranger spells like Hunter’s Mark.
Rangers building for Dex or Str would likely only have +2 or +3 Wis at this point, but would be incentivised to max it out before 20. I prefer it being a static bonus over a damage dice so it isn’t multiplied on a crit (normally anyway).
I do believe the bonus damage should come in the form of damage independent of the weapon being used for gameplay reasons. This is to strike a balance between it being applicable and resisted, which can’t really be done if it is simply using the damage type of the weapon, since magical physical damage is too rarely resisted.
Of the ones available, I’d go with Necrotic.
SO it sounds like Toms opinion is the ranger can only be improved if it is "better" or equal than every thing you compare it too.
I for one value unique abilities. (including Level 20's capstone) if you feel like you want a build that doesn't miss you will probably go ranger. the Mat Colville stream has a good example of creatures that are protected unless they get hit by a certain magic arrow and the group had exactly 3. lore around certain rakshasas is the same a specific silver arrow is the only way to truly destroy them. Also just like how tasha's gives the option not the requirement to switch up certain ranger abilities to mix and match a good build. some one in the past has told me they thought the fact that ranger can multi-class out with out loosing too much(their opinions not mine) is a good thing not a bad one. same with limited use poisons. if you use posion on an arrow you want it to hit rather than risk being destroyed.(50/50 chances)
I think in order to improve the ranger. I think the understanding of raw wording is the problem. too many dms (and sometimes players) use terms and odd wording as justification to deny abilities use. Also the lack of community wide standards for skills and tools and the benefits. inconsistent adventure design from wizards of the coast is also a problem.(allowing any class to nature check on chult plants deliberately undermines the class. and is inconsistent with the rules for ranger)
....and that is bad design by WotC.
We have come full circle!