SO it sounds like Toms opinion is the ranger can only be improved if it is "better" or equal than every thing you compare it too.
Nope, just that it would be nice to have some more appealing high level abilities that doesn't depend on DM charitability or our concentration, which is split in all directions. A lot of the stuff we get after 5 is either very niche or has a long waiting time, while also not really having that much to show for it. WotC has released enough stuff to make it work, but it is still in a very awkward design space.
Is it a problem that they're behind some other classes for damage? Not as long as they're not too far behind. Rangers are a warrior class, after all. But I think it is a problem that the damage scaling we get after level 5 is tied to concentration spells. Is it a problem that so many spells uses concentration? It wouldn't be if we had a bit more stuff independent of it.
Having run the numbers, my initial suggestion of adding another dice roll to damage was probably too strong, so I updated it for the more formal suggestion of features to be a form of elemental damage (necrotic for 'bleed'?) based on Wisdom to strike a balance between being something you want and something that won't increase the damage output too much, as well as making Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer more universal to get around the problem of it being campaign dependant.
Honestly, I think a better way to build a Ranger would be to have the base class not use magic and have it balanced around that. Then we could have druidic casting be available through one of the archetypes as a 3rd caster. I would love to see a Scout/Skirmisher/whatnot class published as a non-magical Ranger. It's not even that I don't like magic on Rangers, because I very much do, but the mixture of Fighter/Rogue/Druid in a single baseline class makes the fit a bit awkward.
SO it sounds like Toms opinion is the ranger can only be improved if it is "better" or equal than every thing you compare it too.
Nope, just that it would be nice to have some more appealing high level abilities that doesn't depend on DM charitability or our concentration, which is split in all directions. A lot of the stuff we get after 5 is either very niche or has a long waiting time, while also not really having that much to show for it. WotC has released enough stuff to make it work, but it is still in a very awkward design space.
Is it a problem that they're behind some other classes for damage? Not as long as they're not too far behind. Rangers are a warrior class, after all. But I think it is a problem that the damage scaling we get after level 5 is tied to concentration spells. Is it a problem that so many spells uses concentration? It wouldn't be if we had a bit more stuff independent of it.
Having run the numbers, my initial suggestion of adding another dice roll to damage was probably too strong, so I updated it for the more formal suggestion of features to be a form of elemental damage (necrotic for 'bleed'?) based on Wisdom to strike a balance between being something you want and something that won't increase the damage output too much, as well as making Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer more universal to get around the problem of it being campaign dependant.
Honestly, I think a better way to build a Ranger would be to have the base class not use magic and have it balanced around that. Then we could have druidic casting be available through one of the archetypes as a 3rd caster. I would love to see a Scout/Skirmisher/whatnot class published as a non-magical Ranger. It's not even that I don't like magic on Rangers, because I very much do, but the mixture of Fighter/Rogue/Druid in a single baseline class makes the fit a bit awkward.
I agree with most of this besides the last part about magic but I full agree that the class relys on concentration way too much for a class that might want to be in the thick with two weapons and has no inclass (subclass either) ways of keeping up concentration on spells.
Even if the base class features gave you some bonus to CON saves to maintain spells I would say that is worth it....like giving you +WIS mod to those saves would be a better later level feature IMO.
I would believe you more if you spent less time proving damage calculations and trying to change every thing to fit your mold.
How about trying to work with what we have? the abilities need minor wording tweaks and future proof consistency updates not rehashing old ideas that wizards have actively denied, because of design philosophy and lore(although wizards has started moving away from lore restrictions )
I would believe you more if you spent less time proving damage calculations and trying to change every thing to fit your mold.
How about trying to work with what we have? the abilities need minor wording tweaks and future proof consistency updates not rehashing old ideas that wizards have actively denied, because of design philosophy and lore(although wizards has started moving away from lore restrictions )
I think its to show how much rangers rely on concentration for damage output and how by adding concentration based abilities (especially one that is required to use your capstone) is terrible design....which I agree with.
If you have to decide between your capstone and using your spells its bad design.
Two or three of you are so hyper focused on narrow things like single target perfect scenario damage, DMs screwing the player over, and 90% of the game being only combat, that I wonder I we are still talking about the same game. What you sound like you are describing is world of Warcraft or some other battle video game.
What a ranger brings to the table above level 5 or 9 is so much more and above and beyond single target damage and yet several of you are unable to understand or acknowledge these things. I’m top of this, we are yet again stuck comparing the ranger class to the primary focuses of 3 or 4 classes. LOL! That is testimonial to their scope and diversity in and of itself. The fact that rangers are even argued about in what capacity they measure up to barbarians, paladins, fighters, rogues, and druids is amazing, and yet several of you disregard that as a weakness. Rubbish. And that mentality is insane.
many of those concentration spells are either only for one attack (assuming they hit) or last long enough for multiple combats.
as previously stated (by someone more intelligent than me)you can use your capstone and a spell in the same turn because of the unique ways ranger spells deal with concentration.
Also many of the best features require concentration so to hit on that is to limit druids, wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, clerics and more. this would lower the bar to where the ranger is above many of those classes too.
Moving on, since I’m tired of trying to point out that extra damage is fighter thinking not ranger thinking to everyone. Here some of the changes I would make if were the ranger “god” at WOtC. 1) Favored Foe - you get to select an additional favored foe every 5 levels (1, 5, 10, 15, 20) and the list would be shrunk : humanoids (2), aberrations, celestial, dragons, Elementals, fiends, Fey, giants, monstrosities and undead. I’m sorry but beasts, plants, oozes, and constructs just don’t make sense in my mind. That gives you half the list at level 20 so if they bbeg at L20 isn’t on your list it’s your own fault. I would also reword it somewhat to make it clear that you get expertise on all checks dealing with these enemies. 2) Natural Explorer - every time you get an an ASI you also get to select an additional terrain type you are expert in. (L1, 4, 8, 12, 16, 19 - for a total of 6 terrains) I would add wording to make it clear that the expertise in rolls for the terrain includes rolls about the beasts typical of the terrain (which explains why I left beasts out of favored enemy). I would also add deep water as a terrain - you don’t get water breathing or a swim speed but if you do get them somewhere else this opens up whole new realms of adventure. 3) Fighting Style - the Two weapon fighting of traditional rangers was hugely nerfed this go round so let’s give it back some oomph - you may engage in TWF even if both weapons are not light as long as one weapon is light and neither are two handed or heavy, you get your proficiency and stat bonuses with both attacks. So now you can at least use a long sword or battle axe with a dagger/hand axe/short sword and you get full bonuses on both attacks. Sadly anything more would reall mess with the overall 2 weapon fighting mechanics. 4) Spell casting - while we’ve had several spirited discussions about known vs prepared casting for rangers I think a bigger problem is just how limited the spells known numbers are. I would expand this so they get 4 known at L2 and then 3 new known spells each time they get a new level of spell slots except at L17 where they get 2 new spells to go with the L5 spell slots. That gives them 15 spells overall which should be a big improvement in their spellcasting. I would also expand their list - mostly with nonconcentration spells. That or provide shorter time nonconcentration versions to some of their concentration spells like the Fey wanderers Fey reinforcements provides. 5) Primeval Awareness - add wording that made it clear that it doesn’t show recognized members of the party ( so Fey characters and drakewarden drakes etc aren’t included) and that it does give direction but not distance or number. That would solve the 2-major problems that have developed with this ability. 6) Lands Stride - the first part of this shouldn’t be just the ranger, it should include the party as long as it’s not too large ( ranger and 5/6 mounted companions). The second part should be just the ranger. 7) Hide in Plain Sight - given the mass confusion that seems to surround this ability it needs a major rewrite. Points and changes needed: A) you can do the prep work well in advance of the hiding not during the interaction. B) you get a +10 to hide attempts including in lightly obscured conditions. C) once hidden opponents are at disadvantage on all perception checks to locate you until you move. D) such movement can include a surprise attack from the hidden position giving you advantage on that attack action. E) a change since cameo paint etc is good more than once - the last sentence is removed completely so you can use this ability again without redoing the camouflage. 8) Vanish - I would leave this alone it’s strong enough as is when the ranger gets to really ranger. 9) Feral Senses - the last part really needs clarification/alteration since if I know an invisible foes location why is it still getting advantage on attacks (unless it meets other advantage requirements like flanking) so I would add that invisible foes no longer get the attack advantage from invisibility. 10) Foe Slayer - isn’t bad as is but a tweak I would love (as a power gamer) would be removing the “once on each of your turns” letting the ranger use it on every attack if needed.
many of those concentration spells are either only for one attack (assuming they hit) or last long enough for multiple combats.
as previously stated (by someone more intelligent than me)you can use your capstone and a spell in the same turn because of the unique ways ranger spells deal with concentration.
Also many of the best features require concentration so to hit on that is to limit druids, wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, clerics and more. this would lower the bar to where the ranger is above many of those classes too.
But the issue with the Favored Foe is that you give up concentration to use it. So if you want to use one of your best spells for multiple fights as you said you have to completely forgo your capstone....which is again bad design.
If you use the PHB version you drop the concentration requirement but then limit to what creatures you can use it on significantly. BBEG might be your favored enemy but then again they might not...or can shapechange or summon creatures that aren't on the list. Overall its not hard to see how it limits you.
For me a simple fix would be to remove the concentration component for Favored Foe....its not enough damage to warrant it anyway and you would burn another instance to swap to a new creature anyway so its not that amazing to begin with. It would solve the Foe Slayer issue and make the capstone a lot more appealing in the same move.
You could make it go away at a higher level if you really think its too good otherwise....like level 11 or so it no longer takes concentration? That would be better design IMO and work better in tandem with your spells.
Moving on, since I’m tired of trying to point out that extra damage is fighter thinking not ranger thinking to everyone. Here some of the changes I would make if were the ranger “god” at WOtC. 1) Favored Foe - you get to select an additional favored foe every 5 levels (1, 5, 10, 15, 20) and the list would be shrunk : humanoids (2), aberrations, celestial, dragons, Elementals, fiends, Fey, giants, monstrosities and undead. I’m sorry but beasts, plants, oozes, and constructs just don’t make sense in my mind. That gives you half the list at level 20 so if they bbeg at L20 isn’t on your list it’s your own fault. I would also reword it somewhat to make it clear that you get expertise on all checks dealing with these enemies. 2) Natural Explorer - every time you get an an ASI you also get to select an additional terrain type you are expert in. (L1, 4, 8, 12, 16, 19 - for a total of 6 terrains) I would add wording to make it clear that the expertise in rolls for the terrain includes rolls about the beasts typical of the terrain (which explains why I left beasts out of favored enemy). I would also add deep water as a terrain - you don’t get water breathing or a swim speed but if you do get them somewhere else this opens up whole new realms of adventure. 3) Fighting Style - the Two weapon fighting of traditional rangers was hugely nerfed this go round so let’s give it back some oomph - you may engage in TWF even if both weapons are not light as long as one weapon is light and neither are two handed or heavy, you get your proficiency and stat bonuses with both attacks. So now you can at least use a long sword or battle axe with a dagger/hand axe/short sword and you get full bonuses on both attacks. Sadly anything more would reall mess with the overall 2 weapon fighting mechanics. 4) Spell casting - while we’ve had several spirited discussions about known vs prepared casting for rangers I think a bigger problem is just how limited the spells known numbers are. I would expand this so they get 4 known at L2 and then 3 new known spells each time they get a new level of spell slots except at L17 where they get 2 new spells to go with the L5 spell slots. That gives them 15 spells overall which should be a big improvement in their spellcasting. I would also expand their list - mostly with nonconcentration spells. That or provide shorter time nonconcentration versions to some of their concentration spells like the Fey wanderers Fey reinforcements provides. 5) Primeval Awareness - add wording that made it clear that it doesn’t show recognized members of the party ( so Fey characters and drakewarden drakes etc aren’t included) and that it does give direction but not distance or number. That would solve the 2-major problems that have developed with this ability. 6) Lands Stride - the first part of this shouldn’t be just the ranger, it should include the party as long as it’s not too large ( ranger and 5/6 mounted companions). The second part should be just the ranger. 7) Hide in Plain Sight - given the mass confusion that seems to surround this ability it needs a major rewrite. Points and changes needed: A) you can do the prep work well in advance of the hiding not during the interaction. B) you get a +10 to hide attempts including in lightly obscured conditions. C) once hidden opponents are at disadvantage on all perception checks to locate you until you move. D) such movement can include a surprise attack from the hidden position giving you advantage on that attack action. E) a change since cameo paint etc is good more than once - the last sentence is removed completely so you can use this ability again without redoing the camouflage. 8) Vanish - I would leave this alone it’s strong enough as is when the ranger gets to really ranger. 9) Feral Senses - the last part really needs clarification/alteration since if I know an invisible foes location why is it still getting advantage on attacks (unless it meets other advantage requirements like flanking) so I would add that invisible foes no longer get the attack advantage from invisibility. 10) Foe Slayer - isn’t bad as is but a tweak I would love (as a power gamer) would be removing the “once on each of your turns” letting the ranger use it on every attack if needed.
anyway your thoughts on these changes please.
I like your hide in plain sight changes....take it from something that is mostly worthless to actually being worth it maybe as its at least resourceless.
I would change it myself:
Hide in Plain Sight:
You know how to hide from the advanced sight of many enemys. Once per day you can spend 10 minutes to create camo for yourself that hides you from the effects from one of the following: Tremorsense, Blindsense, or Blightsight. If the creature you are hiding from is also under the effects of your Hunters Mark or Favored Foe they have DIS on perception checks to spot you.
Foe Slayer changes are good....allowing for all attacks makes it a true capstone and I would pick it over dips much more commonly.
The Feral Sense changes are ok...I still think its weak for that level. I would say that you gain Blindsight at 15ft. If you remove the ADV/DIS from invisibility you may as well just give them the last component and let them "see" them.
These would combo better with the existing ranger features and have good synergy or give you more reason to use the other features.
I would believe you more if you spent less time proving damage calculations and trying to change every thing to fit your mold.
I'm not sure what the point here is. Are you saying damage calculations isn't relevant to a discussion of a martial class? Because damage dealing is a pretty key component of what these classes do. I also felt like correcting the misinterpretation of the original damage tables comparing Ranger and Barbarian by adding some of the factors it left out.
How about trying to work with what we have? the abilities need minor wording tweaks and future proof consistency updates not rehashing old ideas that wizards have actively denied, because of design philosophy and lore(although wizards has started moving away from lore restrictions )
Why would I limit myself to what we have when the thread is about how things could be improved? If you disagree with me, that's fine. If you don't want to discuss the ideas I have, no one is forcing you. Nor are anyone stopping you from posting your own ideas entirely separate from what I am talking about.
I think the problems with the Ranger class fundamentally comes down to a few things. 1) Overreliance on concentration, which prevents internal synergy. Favored Foe is also anti-synergetic with your spell casting because of this. 2) A fair few levels in T2 that just doesn't feel worth picking up. 6 and 10 definitely. 7 depending on archetype. Even 11 in some cases. 3) a lack of high lever features to compensate for the investment.
2) and 3) are interlinked and solving one means you don't really have to solve the other (but it would be nice if they did). It's not that Fighers or Rogues only have amazing features at higher level, but rather that they get something useful virtually every level they advance into their class. The Ranger isn't so lucky and therefor the question of multiclassing has to come up; what does Ranger give you that is worth holding out for instead of getting immediate benefits from multiclassing with classes that already share your primary stats? And if you want the spellcasting side of the Ranger, what about the class makes it worth sticking to instead of going Druid after level 5?
1) is a bit of a different problem. Make features or spells without concentration too powerful and you might break a few things, while adding more stuff just adds to the problem. Stuff like having to break concentration to cast Lightning Arrow, even though it fires automatically on the next attack (unlike Hail of Thorns), hit or miss, and could've just been a standard action spell. It also can't be combined with Conjure Volley or Barrage because they specify non-magical ammunition, which is probably for the best, balance wise, but makes me wonder why this spell uses concentration. Tasha's Favored Foe forces you to choose between your spells and your capstone, so that is also a weird design choice that makes using these features pretty awkward, on top of being on a resource limit. In fact, in most level 20 situations, I would prefer Favored Enemy.
This concentration bloat is coupled with the inconvenient fact that Rangers don't have anything to help them keep concentration, which seems like a pretty major oversight. Something as simple as them having Con instead of Dex as their primary save would've gone a long way.
You can "make" a Ranger work after level 5, but that's part of the problem, in my opinion. You don't really have to "make" the other martial classes work. Or the Rogue. Maybe the Monk. The other weapon based characters tend to work pretty well on their own at all levels, because the basic features they get are generally useful.
I think making a non-magical variant of the class would free up design space to deal with what I think are the problems. Or, failing that, I suppose a Ranger themed Fighter subclass (Skirmisher?) akin to Scout would work.
But the issue with the Favored Foe is that you give up concentration to use it. So if you want to use one of your best spells for multiple fights as you said you have to completely forgo your capstone....which is again bad design.
even Tasha's can use it at 20th because of sequence of events.
as for dropping your long term spells. I would like to note the best ones you have multiple slots for and at 20th level you have more than enough resources to spare.
plus think of level 20 encounter design the way the encounter is built up to and then finally set up will inform how you use your spells. tactics always matters with rangers always. You yourself said you had a hard time understanding tactics (in another thread). whether fighting a horde or a single bbge makes a difference and balanced encounter design means you rarely have both at the same time. even if you do the ranger has both horde stopping abilities and single target abilities. the ranger gets to pick meanwhile other classes are forced into a role. Note: the capstone helps both situations.
I prefer my version of hide to yours optimus - mostly for this reason - your hiding with cammoflage not invisible so it should be a perception check to spot you and it should apply to all senses since your holding still while hidden. if we still had infravision that would show you as different from the background but to all other senses (except possibly true sight) you are being mispercevied by the senses not invisible to the senses. Besides it’s mine and I’m egotistical enough to prefer mine to others unless very clearly better😁🤪😜.
Tom take a look at my suggestions above. I also feel your still stuck in the fighter thought/non exploration leg mode when thinking about the ranger - it’s a hard combo to break out of but try thinking about the ranger as an exploration focused multiclass Gish not just a martial.
One thing I think I would do across the subclasses is simply give them proficiency with wisdom saves at L7 instead of all the games around charm and fear advantages. It’s powerful but then they are wisdom casters so it makes sense. And then at 8/12 you can take warcaster/resilient:Constituion if you want help with con saves beyond the +2/3 you should have already.
Tom take a look at my suggestions above. I also feel your still stuck in the fighter thought/non exploration leg mode when thinking about the ranger - it’s a hard combo to break out of but try thinking about the ranger as an exploration focused multiclass Gish not just a martial.
Your suggestios look fine, but let me rephrase 1 key criticism I haven't focused too much on for the Ranger class (not directly at your suggestions); it's too DM dependant and it shouldn't be. I think it is a fundamentally bad design philosophy to leave some of the key sides to a class up for the DM to deal with because WotC either couldn't or didn't want to create features that are universally applicable.
There are a lot of simple fixes that could be done. Getting Vanish at level 6 would make it a pretty hard choice whether or not to multiclass, because it is an alright ability, especially for archers. Maybe add a second fighting style to emphasize versatility. Increase their list of spells known or, even better, just make them a prepared caster. Give them more options that aren't as dependant on concentration. Etc.
I do apologize if I come across hostile, I am not trying to be. It is just that every reason I've been given thus far to consider the pureclass Ranger seems to return to the question of "wouldn't a Ra5-> F / Ro / D do this better?" If you want to talk about the class as a gish, that's fine. I've had a lot of fun as a Cleric/Ranger and Fighter/Druid in ol' Baldur's Gate. But that does bring the inevitable question: What about the Ranger will let it be a better gish pureclassed than if we multiclass with a Druid or Cleric?
I prefer my version of hide to yours optimus - mostly for this reason - your hiding with cammoflage not invisible so it should be a perception check to spot you and it should apply to all senses since your holding still while hidden. if we still had infravision that would show you as different from the background but to all other senses (except possibly true sight) you are being mispercevied by the senses not invisible to the senses. Besides it’s mine and I’m egotistical enough to prefer mine to others unless very clearly better😁🤪😜.
To each their own. I think giving the special sense avoidance gives the ranger something no other class can get which seems fitting to the people who are suppose to specialize in hunting the extreme.
It would add to the tracking/hunting aspect of the class and give you a reason to use hunters mark later in the game.
But the issue with the Favored Foe is that you give up concentration to use it. So if you want to use one of your best spells for multiple fights as you said you have to completely forgo your capstone....which is again bad design.
even Tasha's can use it at 20th because of sequence of events.
as for dropping your long term spells. I would like to note the best ones you have multiple slots for and at 20th level you have more than enough resources to spare.
plus think of level 20 encounter design the way the encounter is built up to and then finally set up will inform how you use your spells. tactics always matters with rangers always. You yourself said you had a hard time understanding tactics (in another thread). whether fighting a horde or a single bbge makes a difference and balanced encounter design means you rarely have both at the same time. even if you do the ranger has both horde stopping abilities and single target abilities. the ranger gets to pick meanwhile other classes are forced into a role. Note: the capstone helps both situations.
The problem is you lose your capstone then if you lose concentration....and you wasted your other concentration spell as well so its a lose/lose.
Overall its just a weird thing to have rely on concentration but never give you a way to ensure you can keep it up. Its very likely at that level you only have a +2 to CON saves and will just auto-fail a concentration save if the damage is 44+...which is not too uncommon at that level.
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Nope, just that it would be nice to have some more appealing high level abilities that doesn't depend on DM charitability or our concentration, which is split in all directions. A lot of the stuff we get after 5 is either very niche or has a long waiting time, while also not really having that much to show for it. WotC has released enough stuff to make it work, but it is still in a very awkward design space.
Is it a problem that they're behind some other classes for damage? Not as long as they're not too far behind. Rangers are a warrior class, after all. But I think it is a problem that the damage scaling we get after level 5 is tied to concentration spells.
Is it a problem that so many spells uses concentration? It wouldn't be if we had a bit more stuff independent of it.
Having run the numbers, my initial suggestion of adding another dice roll to damage was probably too strong, so I updated it for the more formal suggestion of features to be a form of elemental damage (necrotic for 'bleed'?) based on Wisdom to strike a balance between being something you want and something that won't increase the damage output too much, as well as making Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer more universal to get around the problem of it being campaign dependant.
Honestly, I think a better way to build a Ranger would be to have the base class not use magic and have it balanced around that. Then we could have druidic casting be available through one of the archetypes as a 3rd caster. I would love to see a Scout/Skirmisher/whatnot class published as a non-magical Ranger. It's not even that I don't like magic on Rangers, because I very much do, but the mixture of Fighter/Rogue/Druid in a single baseline class makes the fit a bit awkward.
I agree with most of this besides the last part about magic but I full agree that the class relys on concentration way too much for a class that might want to be in the thick with two weapons and has no inclass (subclass either) ways of keeping up concentration on spells.
Even if the base class features gave you some bonus to CON saves to maintain spells I would say that is worth it....like giving you +WIS mod to those saves would be a better later level feature IMO.
I would believe you more if you spent less time proving damage calculations and trying to change every thing to fit your mold.
How about trying to work with what we have? the abilities need minor wording tweaks and future proof consistency updates not rehashing old ideas that wizards have actively denied, because of design philosophy and lore(although wizards has started moving away from lore restrictions )
I think its to show how much rangers rely on concentration for damage output and how by adding concentration based abilities (especially one that is required to use your capstone) is terrible design....which I agree with.
If you have to decide between your capstone and using your spells its bad design.
Two or three of you are so hyper focused on narrow things like single target perfect scenario damage, DMs screwing the player over, and 90% of the game being only combat, that I wonder I we are still talking about the same game. What you sound like you are describing is world of Warcraft or some other battle video game.
What a ranger brings to the table above level 5 or 9 is so much more and above and beyond single target damage and yet several of you are unable to understand or acknowledge these things. I’m top of this, we are yet again stuck comparing the ranger class to the primary focuses of 3 or 4 classes. LOL! That is testimonial to their scope and diversity in and of itself. The fact that rangers are even argued about in what capacity they measure up to barbarians, paladins, fighters, rogues, and druids is amazing, and yet several of you disregard that as a weakness. Rubbish. And that mentality is insane.
many of those concentration spells are either only for one attack (assuming they hit) or last long enough for multiple combats.
as previously stated (by someone more intelligent than me)you can use your capstone and a spell in the same turn because of the unique ways ranger spells deal with concentration.
Also many of the best features require concentration so to hit on that is to limit druids, wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, clerics and more. this would lower the bar to where the ranger is above many of those classes too.
Moving on, since I’m tired of trying to point out that extra damage is fighter thinking not ranger thinking to everyone. Here some of the changes I would make if were the ranger “god” at WOtC.
1) Favored Foe - you get to select an additional favored foe every 5 levels (1, 5, 10, 15, 20) and the list would be shrunk : humanoids (2), aberrations, celestial, dragons, Elementals, fiends, Fey, giants, monstrosities and undead. I’m sorry but beasts, plants, oozes, and constructs just don’t make sense in my mind. That gives you half the list at level 20 so if they bbeg at L20 isn’t on your list it’s your own fault. I would also reword it somewhat to make it clear that you get expertise on all checks dealing with these enemies.
2) Natural Explorer - every time you get an an ASI you also get to select an additional terrain type you are expert in. (L1, 4, 8, 12, 16, 19 - for a total of 6 terrains) I would add wording to make it clear that the expertise in rolls for the terrain includes rolls about the beasts typical of the terrain (which explains why I left beasts out of favored enemy). I would also add deep water as a terrain - you don’t get water breathing or a swim speed but if you do get them somewhere else this opens up whole new realms of adventure.
3) Fighting Style - the Two weapon fighting of traditional rangers was hugely nerfed this go round so let’s give it back some oomph - you may engage in TWF even if both weapons are not light as long as one weapon is light and neither are two handed or heavy, you get your proficiency and stat bonuses with both attacks. So now you can at least use a long sword or battle axe with a dagger/hand axe/short sword and you get full bonuses on both attacks. Sadly anything more would reall mess with the overall 2 weapon fighting mechanics.
4) Spell casting - while we’ve had several spirited discussions about known vs prepared casting for rangers I think a bigger problem is just how limited the spells known numbers are. I would expand this so they get 4 known at L2 and then 3 new known spells each time they get a new level of spell slots except at L17 where they get 2 new spells to go with the L5 spell slots. That gives them 15 spells overall which should be a big improvement in their spellcasting. I would also expand their list - mostly with nonconcentration spells. That or provide shorter time nonconcentration versions to some of their concentration spells like the Fey wanderers Fey reinforcements provides.
5) Primeval Awareness - add wording that made it clear that it doesn’t show recognized members of the party ( so Fey characters and drakewarden drakes etc aren’t included) and that it does give direction but not distance or number. That would solve the 2-major problems that have developed with this ability.
6) Lands Stride - the first part of this shouldn’t be just the ranger, it should include the party as long as it’s not too large ( ranger and 5/6 mounted companions). The second part should be just the ranger.
7) Hide in Plain Sight - given the mass confusion that seems to surround this ability it needs a major rewrite. Points and changes needed: A) you can do the prep work well in advance of the hiding not during the interaction. B) you get a +10 to hide attempts including in lightly obscured conditions. C) once hidden opponents are at disadvantage on all perception checks to locate you until you move. D) such movement can include a surprise attack from the hidden position giving you advantage on that attack action. E) a change since cameo paint etc is good more than once - the last sentence is removed completely so you can use this ability again without redoing the camouflage.
8) Vanish - I would leave this alone it’s strong enough as is when the ranger gets to really ranger.
9) Feral Senses - the last part really needs clarification/alteration since if I know an invisible foes location why is it still getting advantage on attacks (unless it meets other advantage requirements like flanking) so I would add that invisible foes no longer get the attack advantage from invisibility.
10) Foe Slayer - isn’t bad as is but a tweak I would love (as a power gamer) would be removing the “once on each of your turns” letting the ranger use it on every attack if needed.
anyway your thoughts on these changes please.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
But the issue with the Favored Foe is that you give up concentration to use it. So if you want to use one of your best spells for multiple fights as you said you have to completely forgo your capstone....which is again bad design.
If you use the PHB version you drop the concentration requirement but then limit to what creatures you can use it on significantly. BBEG might be your favored enemy but then again they might not...or can shapechange or summon creatures that aren't on the list. Overall its not hard to see how it limits you.
For me a simple fix would be to remove the concentration component for Favored Foe....its not enough damage to warrant it anyway and you would burn another instance to swap to a new creature anyway so its not that amazing to begin with. It would solve the Foe Slayer issue and make the capstone a lot more appealing in the same move.
You could make it go away at a higher level if you really think its too good otherwise....like level 11 or so it no longer takes concentration? That would be better design IMO and work better in tandem with your spells.
I like your hide in plain sight changes....take it from something that is mostly worthless to actually being worth it maybe as its at least resourceless.
I would change it myself:
Hide in Plain Sight:
You know how to hide from the advanced sight of many enemys. Once per day you can spend 10 minutes to create camo for yourself that hides you from the effects from one of the following: Tremorsense, Blindsense, or Blightsight. If the creature you are hiding from is also under the effects of your Hunters Mark or Favored Foe they have DIS on perception checks to spot you.
Foe Slayer changes are good....allowing for all attacks makes it a true capstone and I would pick it over dips much more commonly.
The Feral Sense changes are ok...I still think its weak for that level. I would say that you gain Blindsight at 15ft. If you remove the ADV/DIS from invisibility you may as well just give them the last component and let them "see" them.
These would combo better with the existing ranger features and have good synergy or give you more reason to use the other features.
I would just drop the FF concentration.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yeah that's an easy one to me
Thank you optimus
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I'm not sure what the point here is. Are you saying damage calculations isn't relevant to a discussion of a martial class? Because damage dealing is a pretty key component of what these classes do. I also felt like correcting the misinterpretation of the original damage tables comparing Ranger and Barbarian by adding some of the factors it left out.
Why would I limit myself to what we have when the thread is about how things could be improved? If you disagree with me, that's fine. If you don't want to discuss the ideas I have, no one is forcing you. Nor are anyone stopping you from posting your own ideas entirely separate from what I am talking about.
I think the problems with the Ranger class fundamentally comes down to a few things. 1) Overreliance on concentration, which prevents internal synergy. Favored Foe is also anti-synergetic with your spell casting because of this. 2) A fair few levels in T2 that just doesn't feel worth picking up. 6 and 10 definitely. 7 depending on archetype. Even 11 in some cases. 3) a lack of high lever features to compensate for the investment.
2) and 3) are interlinked and solving one means you don't really have to solve the other (but it would be nice if they did). It's not that Fighers or Rogues only have amazing features at higher level, but rather that they get something useful virtually every level they advance into their class. The Ranger isn't so lucky and therefor the question of multiclassing has to come up; what does Ranger give you that is worth holding out for instead of getting immediate benefits from multiclassing with classes that already share your primary stats? And if you want the spellcasting side of the Ranger, what about the class makes it worth sticking to instead of going Druid after level 5?
1) is a bit of a different problem. Make features or spells without concentration too powerful and you might break a few things, while adding more stuff just adds to the problem. Stuff like having to break concentration to cast Lightning Arrow, even though it fires automatically on the next attack (unlike Hail of Thorns), hit or miss, and could've just been a standard action spell. It also can't be combined with Conjure Volley or Barrage because they specify non-magical ammunition, which is probably for the best, balance wise, but makes me wonder why this spell uses concentration. Tasha's Favored Foe forces you to choose between your spells and your capstone, so that is also a weird design choice that makes using these features pretty awkward, on top of being on a resource limit. In fact, in most level 20 situations, I would prefer Favored Enemy.
This concentration bloat is coupled with the inconvenient fact that Rangers don't have anything to help them keep concentration, which seems like a pretty major oversight. Something as simple as them having Con instead of Dex as their primary save would've gone a long way.
You can "make" a Ranger work after level 5, but that's part of the problem, in my opinion. You don't really have to "make" the other martial classes work. Or the Rogue. Maybe the Monk. The other weapon based characters tend to work pretty well on their own at all levels, because the basic features they get are generally useful.
I think making a non-magical variant of the class would free up design space to deal with what I think are the problems. Or, failing that, I suppose a Ranger themed Fighter subclass (Skirmisher?) akin to Scout would work.
even Tasha's can use it at 20th because of sequence of events.
as for dropping your long term spells. I would like to note the best ones you have multiple slots for and at 20th level you have more than enough resources to spare.
plus think of level 20 encounter design the way the encounter is built up to and then finally set up will inform how you use your spells. tactics always matters with rangers always. You yourself said you had a hard time understanding tactics (in another thread). whether fighting a horde or a single bbge makes a difference and balanced encounter design means you rarely have both at the same time. even if you do the ranger has both horde stopping abilities and single target abilities. the ranger gets to pick meanwhile other classes are forced into a role. Note: the capstone helps both situations.
I prefer my version of hide to yours optimus - mostly for this reason - your hiding with cammoflage not invisible so it should be a perception check to spot you and it should apply to all senses since your holding still while hidden. if we still had infravision that would show you as different from the background but to all other senses (except possibly true sight) you are being mispercevied by the senses not invisible to the senses. Besides it’s mine and I’m egotistical enough to prefer mine to others unless very clearly better😁🤪😜.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Tom take a look at my suggestions above.
I also feel your still stuck in the fighter thought/non exploration leg mode when thinking about the ranger - it’s a hard combo to break out of but try thinking about the ranger as an exploration focused multiclass Gish not just a martial.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
One thing I think I would do across the subclasses is simply give them proficiency with wisdom saves at L7 instead of all the games around charm and fear advantages. It’s powerful but then they are wisdom casters so it makes sense. And then at 8/12 you can take warcaster/resilient:Constituion if you want help with con saves beyond the +2/3 you should have already.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Your suggestios look fine, but let me rephrase 1 key criticism I haven't focused too much on for the Ranger class (not directly at your suggestions); it's too DM dependant and it shouldn't be. I think it is a fundamentally bad design philosophy to leave some of the key sides to a class up for the DM to deal with because WotC either couldn't or didn't want to create features that are universally applicable.
There are a lot of simple fixes that could be done. Getting Vanish at level 6 would make it a pretty hard choice whether or not to multiclass, because it is an alright ability, especially for archers. Maybe add a second fighting style to emphasize versatility. Increase their list of spells known or, even better, just make them a prepared caster. Give them more options that aren't as dependant on concentration. Etc.
I do apologize if I come across hostile, I am not trying to be. It is just that every reason I've been given thus far to consider the pureclass Ranger seems to return to the question of "wouldn't a Ra5-> F / Ro / D do this better?" If you want to talk about the class as a gish, that's fine. I've had a lot of fun as a Cleric/Ranger and Fighter/Druid in ol' Baldur's Gate. But that does bring the inevitable question: What about the Ranger will let it be a better gish pureclassed than if we multiclass with a Druid or Cleric?
To each their own. I think giving the special sense avoidance gives the ranger something no other class can get which seems fitting to the people who are suppose to specialize in hunting the extreme.
It would add to the tracking/hunting aspect of the class and give you a reason to use hunters mark later in the game.
The problem is you lose your capstone then if you lose concentration....and you wasted your other concentration spell as well so its a lose/lose.
Overall its just a weird thing to have rely on concentration but never give you a way to ensure you can keep it up. Its very likely at that level you only have a +2 to CON saves and will just auto-fail a concentration save if the damage is 44+...which is not too uncommon at that level.