Blimey Optimus, do you rip apart all the other classes, or is it just the ranger you want to nerf?
I'm just saying that one spell shouldn't define a class but I'm this case restricting/removing this spell is enough to remove significant value from ranger.... And imo that's poor design.
I’m curious as to why you think a class with spellcasting as a class feature shouldn’t have great go to spells available to it. If all of the “good spells” are class features, then what are the other spells for?
Spells should have decent relative value so the choice of one over another should carry enough of a change so that the build is different and interesting but not at the cost of being significantly worse off for not choosing and not using.
I’m curious as to why you think a class with spellcasting as a class feature shouldn’t have great go to spells available to it. If all of the “good spells” are class features, then what are the other spells for?
Spells should have decent relative value so the choice of one over another should carry enough of a change so that the build is different and interesting but not at the cost of being significantly worse off for not choosing and not using.
I see. Well that is rampit in 5E. Spells, feats, backgrounds, builds. Lots of “options” that are not really options. All RPGs have that.
Please do me a favor, this thread is for discussion of conjure animals in a positive light. There is well enough criticism for it and lots of other things in the game already. If you want to debate or discuss the pros and cons of this spell and it’s implementation in the game, please start a new thread and keep it out of this one. Thanks.
Blimey Optimus, do you rip apart all the other classes, or is it just the ranger you want to nerf?
I'm just saying that one spell shouldn't define a class but I'm this case restricting/removing this spell is enough to remove significant value from ranger.... And imo that's poor design.
But that's true for some set of spells for every caster in the game. 5E is full of bad spells and always has been.
I realize that this may be a non-issue at many, perhaps most, tables, but I am always fascinated by which spells do and do not have a M (material) component of any kind. Just as taking away a polearm from a character with the polearm master feat and build focus is more than just disarming them (like if the party is taken prisoner or something), taking away a spellcaster’s spellcasting focus and/or component pouch is the magical equivalent. Conjure animals is one of the spells that is S and V only, so a character can run around in their birthday suit and have access to this spell as normal.
In a tactical world with maneuvers and variant combat rules, let alone simple ability checks, a character loosing an item central to a character’s “build” can be a big deal tactically and narratively.
I especially like how Conjuring spells are at thematically isolated. The fact that only 2 classes get most of the large summons creates an interesting build/narrative around the characters. it gives a mechanical way to represent a character being in-tune with nature that skill rolls seem find lacking at most tables.
There is a 5e trend where skills are roll and forget but summoning a "flock" of something is remembered. personally I prefer a good mix of situations and a well rounded adventuring career. conjure animals helps a ranger feel like a ranger at tables where skill checks are downplayed.
Truly, the act of magically calling on nature to aid and assist you screams to me druid and ranger. I strongly believe that many folks dislike the ranger because they aren't only just an outdoorsy fighter with a bow. With so many complaints and criticisms of the class after level 5 or level 7, and the fixes being multiclassing into rogue or fighter, I see many players that don't like the nature magic shift the ranger has and increases starting at level 9.
For me, the thematic power alone of the spell is on point. Even if circumstances prevent the spell being used at its full capacity or at all for combat encounters, it is still a wonderfully powerful and versatile spell. Travel, exploration, role play, or problem solving. Multiple little friendly creatures are a real boon. And unlike many other types of conjures, animates, and summon spells, beasts fit in just about anywhere. Wilderness, cities, villages, caves, dungeons, in the sky, underwater, everywhere.
I am painfully aware of how many folks can't or won't run this spell because of many reasons, most of which can easily be worked out with a bit of forethought and communication, but in combat, there is rarely a situation where I wouldn't mind having a giant constrictor snake on my side. LOL!!
Another bit I love about conjure animals is how it trains players how to tactically use low hp enemies or high hp ones. It's practically dm training wheels.
A good dm will use a variety of enemy scenarios. For example a tank BBEG or kobold hordes. Having a response spell to match and respond is just interesting gameplay.
I think even players that want to really just focus on being a "shooting a bow ranger" or "swinging a sword ranger" should at least take conjure animals as a known spell. Even if they don't use it in combat at all, it is great for outside combat as well. And even in combat you can just save it for a tactical escape or defense.
Some of the issues folks have with the spell is all of the rolling of attacks and damage. Damage is a simple fix: use the fixed damage listed on the stat blocks found on every monster stat block. Then, choose animals that don't have pack tactics. Is either of these "optimal" in a mathematical sense? No. But it will even further speed up the turn.
4 war horses is a great choice for a conjure. They deal fine damage, have an initial knockdown effect (that isn't every single turn), are large (for cover and blocking), are fast, can be ridden, have decent hit points (enough to survive a hit or two), and are only 4 of them. It's a good compromise. This is the equivalent of 4 extra tier 1 or tier 2 greatsword attacks for a single spell slot! Plus all of the enemy attacks and potential damage mitigated away from your party.
Anyone who has played as, or at a table with, a high level rogue, a high level paladin, a level 5+ monk, level 11+ crossbow expert fighter, or nay great weapon master/polearm master martial build with extra attack knows that many non-ranger builds have lots of attacks each and every round. So a ranger or druid getting a few more in every once in a while is not a big deal. Spell slingers with area of effect spells or ongoing damage spells with lots of dice are the same way.
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Blimey Optimus, do you rip apart all the other classes, or is it just the ranger you want to nerf?
I'm just saying that one spell shouldn't define a class but I'm this case restricting/removing this spell is enough to remove significant value from ranger.... And imo that's poor design.
Spells should have decent relative value so the choice of one over another should carry enough of a change so that the build is different and interesting but not at the cost of being significantly worse off for not choosing and not using.
I see. Well that is rampit in 5E. Spells, feats, backgrounds, builds. Lots of “options” that are not really options. All RPGs have that.
Please do me a favor, this thread is for discussion of conjure animals in a positive light. There is well enough criticism for it and lots of other things in the game already. If you want to debate or discuss the pros and cons of this spell and it’s implementation in the game, please start a new thread and keep it out of this one. Thanks.
Conjure animals is still concentration. a single hit has a chance of removing them all from the field.
But that's true for some set of spells for every caster in the game. 5E is full of bad spells and always has been.
I realize that this may be a non-issue at many, perhaps most, tables, but I am always fascinated by which spells do and do not have a M (material) component of any kind. Just as taking away a polearm from a character with the polearm master feat and build focus is more than just disarming them (like if the party is taken prisoner or something), taking away a spellcaster’s spellcasting focus and/or component pouch is the magical equivalent. Conjure animals is one of the spells that is S and V only, so a character can run around in their birthday suit and have access to this spell as normal.
In a tactical world with maneuvers and variant combat rules, let alone simple ability checks, a character loosing an item central to a character’s “build” can be a big deal tactically and narratively.
Conjure animals is always in your back pocket!
I especially like how Conjuring spells are at thematically isolated. The fact that only 2 classes get most of the large summons creates an interesting build/narrative around the characters. it gives a mechanical way to represent a character being in-tune with nature that skill rolls seem find lacking at most tables.
There is a 5e trend where skills are roll and forget but summoning a "flock" of something is remembered. personally I prefer a good mix of situations and a well rounded adventuring career. conjure animals helps a ranger feel like a ranger at tables where skill checks are downplayed.
Not just skill checks but anything resembling exploration, survival, etc
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Truly, the act of magically calling on nature to aid and assist you screams to me druid and ranger. I strongly believe that many folks dislike the ranger because they aren't only just an outdoorsy fighter with a bow. With so many complaints and criticisms of the class after level 5 or level 7, and the fixes being multiclassing into rogue or fighter, I see many players that don't like the nature magic shift the ranger has and increases starting at level 9.
For me, the thematic power alone of the spell is on point. Even if circumstances prevent the spell being used at its full capacity or at all for combat encounters, it is still a wonderfully powerful and versatile spell. Travel, exploration, role play, or problem solving. Multiple little friendly creatures are a real boon. And unlike many other types of conjures, animates, and summon spells, beasts fit in just about anywhere. Wilderness, cities, villages, caves, dungeons, in the sky, underwater, everywhere.
I am painfully aware of how many folks can't or won't run this spell because of many reasons, most of which can easily be worked out with a bit of forethought and communication, but in combat, there is rarely a situation where I wouldn't mind having a giant constrictor snake on my side. LOL!!
Another bit I love about conjure animals is how it trains players how to tactically use low hp enemies or high hp ones. It's practically dm training wheels.
A good dm will use a variety of enemy scenarios. For example a tank BBEG or kobold hordes. Having a response spell to match and respond is just interesting gameplay.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKcQOlUimIY
youtube video titled: How to use conjure animals fast.
Great stuff.
This is great stuff. All true.
I think even players that want to really just focus on being a "shooting a bow ranger" or "swinging a sword ranger" should at least take conjure animals as a known spell. Even if they don't use it in combat at all, it is great for outside combat as well. And even in combat you can just save it for a tactical escape or defense.
Some of the issues folks have with the spell is all of the rolling of attacks and damage. Damage is a simple fix: use the fixed damage listed on the stat blocks found on every monster stat block. Then, choose animals that don't have pack tactics. Is either of these "optimal" in a mathematical sense? No. But it will even further speed up the turn.
4 war horses is a great choice for a conjure. They deal fine damage, have an initial knockdown effect (that isn't every single turn), are large (for cover and blocking), are fast, can be ridden, have decent hit points (enough to survive a hit or two), and are only 4 of them. It's a good compromise. This is the equivalent of 4 extra tier 1 or tier 2 greatsword attacks for a single spell slot! Plus all of the enemy attacks and potential damage mitigated away from your party.
Anyone who has played as, or at a table with, a high level rogue, a high level paladin, a level 5+ monk, level 11+ crossbow expert fighter, or nay great weapon master/polearm master martial build with extra attack knows that many non-ranger builds have lots of attacks each and every round. So a ranger or druid getting a few more in every once in a while is not a big deal. Spell slingers with area of effect spells or ongoing damage spells with lots of dice are the same way.