In general, I have a saying for moments like this. Its a first level spell its not supposed to be great forever. As you continue your adventures HM becomes less and less important and other spells get better.
That said the sheer simplicity and duration make it very useful even at high level if the adventuring day is long and eventful.
In general, I have a saying for moments like this. Its a first level spell its not supposed to be great forever. As you continue your adventures HM becomes less and less important and other spells get better.
That said the sheer simplicity and duration make it very useful even at high level if the adventuring day is long and eventful.
I agree. it pales in comparison to a conjure animals or swift quiver, but not every minute, of every hour, even of every day requires that kind of damage output. For the cost of a first level spell slot you get a nice little damage bump. It's not game breaking at tiers 3 and 4, but there isn't always a need for that. Moreover, the tracking ability makes for a decent little bonus.
When comparing costs of a spell slot to other classes, a warlock has a tough decision to make when thinking about casting hex at higher level play. Their 2 or 3 spells slots are not only limited, but also not a first level slot anymore, so they are spending a lot for a d6 damage, granted they get 3 of them at the highest levels of actual play. A full caster has slots but I'm not sure those spells hold up the same way a hunter's mark would for a ranger with a magic bow and sharpshooter. A first level slot used to cast a magic missile or guiding bolt (using an entire action, by the way) is nothing compared to a ranger taking the attack action with subclass damage, hunter's mark, and a magic weapon. And that's just one turn! That 1st level spell slot adds that damage over and over. Combat rounds at higher levels are, what? 3? 4? Maybe 5 or 6 rounds? Even a divine smite with a 1st level smite is doing a grand total of 9 damage. So 2.58 hits with a hunter's mark and you're ahead of the game from a damage divided by spell slot cost perspective.
Does it use concentration? Yes. Does it become less effective (by comparison) after level 10? Yes. Does it have an alternative use? Yes. But it isn't worthless. It's too consistent and cheap to not consider at higher levels. When damage output is needed in a big way, rangers have other options right from the player's handbook. But for a nice consistent bump for almost no resource cost.
If you are a ranged ranger, concentration will be of little concern much of the time, especially at hight levels, when rangers ignore difficult terrain and can hide as a bonus action, all on top of typically having great dexterity and are incentivized to take stealth as a skill proficiency. If you are a melee ranger that hasn't buffed constitution and/or used (optional) feat(s) to secure your concentration saves, then you're probably doing something else altogether anyway. A plus for a melee ranger is the added chance of the hunter's mark triggering on opportunity attacks from time to time.
Hunter's Mark isn't the best. And it gets less so after level 10. But it's not not worth having.
In general, I have a saying for moments like this. Its a first level spell its not supposed to be great forever. As you continue your adventures HM becomes less and less important and other spells get better.
That said the sheer simplicity and duration make it very useful even at high level if the adventuring day is long and eventful.
I can see the design merit behind having first level spells become out grown in a class leveling, but some of that feels bad as they went the whole spell as substitute for many class features for the ranger.
This one is campaign dependent but magic weapon can be a solid choice. Playing strahd at the moment and the lack of magical weapons combined with a multitude of resistant enemies has made it very useful.
TLDR for the below (sorry, I tend to gibber): HM is a very powerful 1st level spell in the right spot. On the right day, it could be 40-60 damage, which is amazing for one level-one spell slot.
---
The simple comparison is, as you say, Pass Without Trace. And any time stealth matters, you're totally right: it's often going to be the superior concentration spell.
Where it's not, at least at low level, Hunter's Mark is solid.
With Crossbow Expert on my level 5 Kobold, I'm getting three shots almost always with advantage at +9 to hit. Casting or moving HM costs a shot (the bonus action), so that's a d6 + 4 lost (7.5 damage, ignoring misses). In return for 2d6 on that turn (7 damage), plus (say) one more turn of 3 extra d6's. 10.5 extra that turn, minus the 0.5 we lost last turn: 10 damage over two turns, ignoring misses or crits - call it 9.5 damage missing on 5's.
9.5 damage per two-rounds of combat, assuming you need to swap it every second round.
So say we do that: one turn of two-shots / moving mark, and one turn of three-shots with mark. We do 4 turns a battle, 3 battles in the hour...
...and we have a total of 58 damage. From a first level spell slot.
And this is *bad*?
Now *obviously* sometimes you lose ground by needing to shift the mark around, and sometimes you'll lose concentration. Sometimes you only get one battle in the hour. It's not really 58 damage. It really matters how tough things are that you're shooting at - you completely destroy the advantage of Mark if you need to swap it every turn.
But I can think of lots of times stealth (PWT) isn't really going to matter, or where long hard fights are happening, or where we're fighting stuff that'd justify the full force of my firepower for multiple rounds.
Against *hard* targets where HM really shines - ones where you can park the mark and just wail on 'em for multiple turns, it's going to be a very damaging spell. In a 5 turn fight against a single target, that 9.5 damage per two-rounds (4.25 dpr) becomes ¬40 damage over the five rounds (8 dpr) - because you only needed one bonus action to park it, and get three shots a turn for the rest of the fight.
40 damage for a single level 1 spell slot.
And if you drop that Troll or whatever a turn early, then that is almost certainly going to be worth WAY more healing than the 10 you get from Goodberry.
Walking into a hard fight, with the right character, it can be *well* worth the slots to drop your Pass Without Trace, and fire up Hunter's Mark.
Always on? Absolutely not.
Excellent use of a level 1 in the right situation? Absolutely.
I think the notion that Hunters Mark is such a must have spell for the Ranger is how well it works for the limited Casting potential a Ranger has.
Lets have a look at our standard Ranger. I will assume point buy, so that we can talk about a realistic Version of the Ranger.
The Rangers at its core is a Martial Class with Half-Spellcasting added. Which means you want to have your combat stat maxed if you play serious and dont have some Gimmick build. You can start with a maximum of 17 in your main Ability and 16 in one other Ability. Lets assume you wanted a more balanced build and went instead with 16 Dex and 14 in Wisdom, leaving points open for some solid Constitution and other Abilities. This means your Spellcasting modifier is a 2. And it will most likely stay a 2 for most of your Adventure, since your ASI, if used for Abilities. This in turn means your Spell Save DC wont be anything to write home about, making spells with a save always risky. That means Spells like Entangle, while very strong, are always very unreliable.
Next you have the problem that you dont have many Spellslots. As a half Caster, you really have to make each spellslot count, and while I agree that the average Damage each turn from Hunters mark is really low, the fact that its a guaranteed effect with no save and one Spell-Slot lasts for an hour, which can be 2-3 fights in a dungeon and never less than 1 full fight, means that in the end, while its not explosive frontload damage, you will get a very good Damage to Spellslot ratio. In adition to that its cast as a Bonus Action, which means unless you are a Beastmaster or Drakewarden, you dont miss much damage (I excluded the Ranger Subclasses whos Bonus Action use is only to deal more Damage.) I really think that judging Hunters mark by its potential Damage per Turn is not giving it the credit it deserves. Lets just assume that you keep Hunters Mark active for 2 small fights, in each of those fights you get 4 rounds of combat. Thats 8d6 extra Damage for a Level 1 Spellslot. And those were very small fights.
So while I agree that Hunters mark is not the flashiest of Spells, and I wouldnt use it on anything but the Hunter or maybe A Fighter with Magic Initiate, since it is incredible Spellslot efficient. I feel like people tend to overlook that when they judge it only by what it can do in 1 round of combat.
And one more thing that shouldnt be Ignored is that while always only costing you a first level Spellslot, the spell gets more powerful when you get multi-Attack. or any other way to attack a Target more than once a turn, since the Bonus Damage is not limited at all. If you would somehow find a way to attack 10 times a turn, you would get 10 triggers of Hunters mark. (Which is of course a very theoretical calculation, A Fighter with Magic Initiate might get it, but I only wanted to make clear that there is no trigger limit).
I’m with you here. Hunter’s mark dirt cheap and crazy efficient over the long haul. And for me, a ranger always wins over the long haul. That sustained damages turn after turn adds up. Other classes take a huge hit to their daily DPR when the party doesn’t short rest that one time or when a long rest is still 6 hours away and the 1/3, 1/2, and even some blasty full casters are out of spell slot has.
I will say that I find a 14 wisdom to be good enough until about levels 11/12. Before that we are mostly talking about a 5% or 10% difference in spell save DC versus a character that is focused on that. And that is only for the handful of ranger spells that even have a spell attack or spell save DC, which isn’t many of them, or even the best ones. A 16 wisdom more than fine. It isn’t like a paladin that ignores charisma and misses out on spell save DC, number of spells prepared, and aura strength.
I’m with you here. Hunter’s mark dirt cheap and crazy efficient over the long haul. And for me, a ranger always wins over the long haul. That sustained damages turn after turn adds up. Other classes take a huge hit to their daily DPR when the party doesn’t short rest that one time or when a long rest is still 6 hours away and the 1/3, 1/2, and even some blasty full casters are out of spell slot has.
I will say that I find a 14 wisdom to be good enough until about levels 11/12. Before that we are mostly talking about a 5% or 10% difference in spell save DC versus a character that is focused on that. And that is only for the handful of ranger spells that even have a spell attack or spell save DC, which isn’t many of them, or even the best ones. A 16 wisdom more than fine. It isn’t like a paladin that ignores charisma and misses out on spell save DC, number of spells prepared, and aura strength.
Yeah, half Casters are in a weird Place sometimes.
The low number of Spell-Slots really means you have to think twice about every spell you cast and since you get spells very late into the game compared to fullcasters, you really have to see if a spell is still relevant when you finally get it.
Offtopic: Thats why I think the Ranger is a good way to show how absolutely broken Conjure Animals is, you get the Spell at the earliest point at Level 9, when enemies are balanced to deal with spells of Level 5, but just by its own merits, Conjure Animals is still very strong, because it tips the action economy in your favour if the current enemy doesnt happen to have an AoE Ability...
Yep! Even for level 9 rangers conjure animals is a strong choice. Soak attacks and hits, provide mounts, use the help action, use for cover, deal damage, and even if an enemy AoE comes into play they are likely going to go for the most targets, so if that includes less PCs and more animals because of good tactical placement, that is still a win in my book.
I think it's worth point out again, though, that the *concentration* economy can mean Pass Without Trace is often the best place to have your concentration, and that definitely does give a bit of a nerf to HM. I still think it's well worth having up your sleeve.
TBH, I also feel, just as a player, that PWT is a bit ... over the top. It depends on the setting and the DM, but it can be a bit obnoxious. I'm in it to play fun, not roflstomp through a pre-made that didn't think of +10 stealth. If that sort of magical semi-invisibility fits the mood of the setting, sure, but most games really don't feel like they do.
But I'm a compulsive self-nerfer, so that's my illness to deal with, not yours. :)
I will say that I find a 14 wisdom to be good enough until about levels 11/12. Before that we are mostly talking about a 5% or 10% difference in spell save DC versus a character that is focused on that.
along with the 14 wisdom PHB Rangers are more likely to be able to "remember" what creatures have good str, dex or con saves. so they can plan ahead and not waste entangle on a creature that has an unclear save bonus or is immune to restrained conditons.
I think it's worth point out again, though, that the *concentration* economy can mean Pass Without Trace is often the best place to have your concentration, and that definitely does give a bit of a nerf to HM. I still think it's well worth having up your sleeve.
TBH, I also feel, just as a player, that PWT is a bit ... over the top. It depends on the setting and the DM, but it can be a bit obnoxious. I'm in it to play fun, not roflstomp through a pre-made that didn't think of +10 stealth. If that sort of magical semi-invisibility fits the mood of the setting, sure, but most games really don't feel like they do.
But I'm a compulsive self-nerfer, so that's my illness to deal with, not yours. :)
A couple of ideas I have for this.
1. PWT provides zero invisibility. All sight rules for hiding and stealth still apply. Including light sources. So an entire party still needs some kind of visual cover to actually stealth. Wherether that be darkness, full cover obstacles, invisibility, or whatnot. Creatures with darkvision have disadvantage on perception checks based on sight when using darkvision. If you use a light source, PWT or not, other creatures can see you maybe a mile away. P.S. Since you and I are self admitted nerfers, I typically take the ruling on darkvision that a creature has to be in the dim light or darkness themself for darkvision to work. P.P.S. The dungeon master screens have official guidelines for vision and hearing distances under specific circumstances. I find those to be very helpful.
2. When I have a party roll a stealth check I use the lowest roll for the noise they make. No group checks. Group checks for things with an absolute floor, like trying to be quiet, always bothered me. So if you have a party of 4 ninjas and 1 artificier with tin cans tied to their belt, the DM uses the worst stealth roll made by any one member of the stealthing party. With that method you'd be surprised (no pun intended) how much that +10 almost isn't enough for a zero dexterity, heavy armor, no stealth proficiency character to not screw it up.
3. 100% of the time when not in combat, meaning not in 6 second rounds, the game follows the rules for adventuring, including time, movement, travel pace, difficult terrain, marching order, and perhaps most important for this post, activity while traveling. Characters can do ONE THING while traveling outside of combat. Characters can do one thing and move stealthily if they cut their movement pace and take longer to get places. (Since this is a ranger forum post I'll take the time to mention here that a ranger in a favored terrain can move stealthily at a normal pace (as can a beast companion), can't get lost (meaning no navigation check is required), can do another thing (like tracking, foraging, poison harvesting, etc.), all while applying their passive perception. Plus a beast companion can make perception checks as well, and many beasts have PP scores of 20+ after ranger bonuses, even in tiers 1 and 2!) If a character does anything else (casting a cantrip, tracking, foraging, searching for traps, etc.) they do NOT use their PP! If the party is moving at a normal or fast pace a character can use their activity while traveling to stealth, but then again they are NOT using their PP while traveling.
The Rangers at its core is a Martial Class with Half-Spellcasting added. Which means you want to have your combat stat maxed if you play serious and dont have some Gimmick build. You can start with a maximum of 17 in your main Ability and 16 in one other Ability. Lets assume you wanted a more balanced build and went instead with 16 Dex and 14 in Wisdom, leaving points open for some solid Constitution and other Abilities. This means your Spellcasting modifier is a 2. And it will most likely stay a 2 for most of your Adventure, since your ASI, if used for Abilities.
TBH I usually start with both a 16 Dex and either a 16 or 17 Wisdom but Dex never goes above 16. On most of my Ranger builds wisdom is boosted with ASIs or a half feat every time it is offered.
With Druidic Warrior Magic Stone and Shilaleagh, there is no real need for higher than a 14 Dexterity. 14 gives you the max +2 bonus with medium Armor and 16 Wisdom gives you +3 on attacks and damage with either of these. That is also if you want both ranged and melee, if you are primarily a melee guy you can go for Shilleleagh only.
If you do this you get what are by Ranger standards good attacks, good AC and great spell DCs. It opens up the full range of Ranger spells and others you can add with Wisdom-boosting feats like Fey Touched and Shadow Touched. Take an odd Wisdom and one of these feats plus Primal awareness at 3rd level and you have about as many spells to cast in a day as a full caster of the same level (albeit with some once a day castings and lower level spells). With your primal spells and subclass spells you also have as many or more spells known than a lot of casters.
When you do this, Hunter's Mark is not that great even compared to other 1st level offensive options like Ensnaring Strike or Entangle.
I would not call this a gimmick build, it is playing to the Ranger's strengths and the rules in the class.
Tasha’s has certainly given rangers a strong and super ego way to be a wisdom based class. The only caveats to this is assuming folks don’t want to be a dexterity focused ranger, or they have access to any or all of the optional books, like Tasha’s.
Tasha’s has certainly given rangers a strong and super ego way to be a wisdom based class. The only caveats to this is assuming folks don’t want to be a dexterity focused ranger, or they have access to any or all of the optional books, like Tasha’s.
Agreed. But a Tasha's wisdom-ranger is huge fun to play, especially if you play a Fey Wanderer and pick up cause fear through Shadow Touched ..... or worse find a Wand of Fear.
I feel like I'm somewhere in the middle. Most of my Rangers start with at least a 16 Dex and a 16 Wis, with Con being relegated to tertiary stat. I tend to alternate between pumping Dex and Wis (favoring Dex slightly only in that I tend to pump it first) until both get to 20.
Dex is good for more than just AC and weapon attacks. Dex is useful for good initiative and physical skills like Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, and especially Stealth. I trade in stealth a lot with my Rangers, with or without Pass Without Trace. Some of my Rangers even pick up Thieves Tools through a background or feat because they're useful to have but I'm loathe to play a Rogue. At any rate, Dex is immensely useful for scouting and combat. And since I pump Dex, my weapon choice tends to use it as well. Whether it's a Long Bow, a pair of Short Swords, a Rapier/Shield combo, a Whip, or -campaign permitting- a Firearm.
Wis is also very important to my Rangers. Not just for the high Spell Save DC that lets me choose spells like Entangle, Ensnaring Strike, and Summon X, but also because Deft Explorer: Tireless (when I choose it) scales off my Wisdom modifier. In addition to that, I need Wisdom for some key Ranger skills like Perception, Insight, Survival, and Animal Handling. And if I'm taking Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer over their Tasha counterparts, then that's all the more reason to invest in Wisdom. I want high Survival to increase my odds of successfully tracking with Favored Enemy. I want high Wisdom skills to pump with the expertise of my Favored Terrains. Druidic Warrior and the new Beast Master Primal Companions just add more reason to consider prioritizing Wis.
So for me, Dex and Wis are both incredibly valuable and I try never to neglect one or the other. In terms of durability and concentration -since I am neglecting Con to focus on the aforementioned two- I tend to make my builds as slippery as possible. If I can't/don't get hit, my relatively low Con doesn't matter as much. This might take the form of the Mobile feat, Misty Step via Fey Touched, Zephyr Strike, a reach weapon (whip), or a ranged weapon (longbow.) Or hell, maybe even my subclass choice (Horizon Walker, Fey Wanderer.)
(And no, I don't take all the skills I listed on every single Ranger. That's a lot of feat investment. But I do take enough from both Ability Scores that it's always prudent, in my experience, to keep them both competitive.)
Roll randomly for what you put your strongest ranger stat and roll randomly for what is lowest........ You can still make a "working" ranger build (with only a small MC dip at max) Hunters mark May be required to keep up or it may not but its a usefull tool to have.. Just in case.
- Goodberry is one of the most effective rest-cast spells thanks to their 24h duration and can nearly turn healing potions obsolete if used in the right way. Huge potential if your party has easy access to minion actions like Familiars, Unseen Servants, Tiny Servants and etc.
Sorry for later reaction...
But please, by this you meant using a familiar or a servant to carry a goodberry and potentially stabilize a downed ally? Cuz the way I understand RAW this should not be possible.
More than that,
Round 1 potentially 8d6
3 attacks, plus an unleash incarnation, action surge and repeat.
In general, I have a saying for moments like this. Its a first level spell its not supposed to be great forever. As you continue your adventures HM becomes less and less important and other spells get better.
That said the sheer simplicity and duration make it very useful even at high level if the adventuring day is long and eventful.
I agree. it pales in comparison to a conjure animals or swift quiver, but not every minute, of every hour, even of every day requires that kind of damage output. For the cost of a first level spell slot you get a nice little damage bump. It's not game breaking at tiers 3 and 4, but there isn't always a need for that. Moreover, the tracking ability makes for a decent little bonus.
When comparing costs of a spell slot to other classes, a warlock has a tough decision to make when thinking about casting hex at higher level play. Their 2 or 3 spells slots are not only limited, but also not a first level slot anymore, so they are spending a lot for a d6 damage, granted they get 3 of them at the highest levels of actual play. A full caster has slots but I'm not sure those spells hold up the same way a hunter's mark would for a ranger with a magic bow and sharpshooter. A first level slot used to cast a magic missile or guiding bolt (using an entire action, by the way) is nothing compared to a ranger taking the attack action with subclass damage, hunter's mark, and a magic weapon. And that's just one turn! That 1st level spell slot adds that damage over and over. Combat rounds at higher levels are, what? 3? 4? Maybe 5 or 6 rounds? Even a divine smite with a 1st level smite is doing a grand total of 9 damage. So 2.58 hits with a hunter's mark and you're ahead of the game from a damage divided by spell slot cost perspective.
Does it use concentration? Yes. Does it become less effective (by comparison) after level 10? Yes. Does it have an alternative use? Yes. But it isn't worthless. It's too consistent and cheap to not consider at higher levels. When damage output is needed in a big way, rangers have other options right from the player's handbook. But for a nice consistent bump for almost no resource cost.
If you are a ranged ranger, concentration will be of little concern much of the time, especially at hight levels, when rangers ignore difficult terrain and can hide as a bonus action, all on top of typically having great dexterity and are incentivized to take stealth as a skill proficiency. If you are a melee ranger that hasn't buffed constitution and/or used (optional) feat(s) to secure your concentration saves, then you're probably doing something else altogether anyway. A plus for a melee ranger is the added chance of the hunter's mark triggering on opportunity attacks from time to time.
Hunter's Mark isn't the best. And it gets less so after level 10. But it's not not worth having.
I can see the design merit behind having first level spells become out grown in a class leveling, but some of that feels bad as they went the whole spell as substitute for many class features for the ranger.
This one is campaign dependent but magic weapon can be a solid choice. Playing strahd at the moment and the lack of magical weapons combined with a multitude of resistant enemies has made it very useful.
I'm guessing we mean Healing Spirit, not Aid...?
---
TLDR for the below (sorry, I tend to gibber): HM is a very powerful 1st level spell in the right spot. On the right day, it could be 40-60 damage, which is amazing for one level-one spell slot.
---
The simple comparison is, as you say, Pass Without Trace. And any time stealth matters, you're totally right: it's often going to be the superior concentration spell.
Where it's not, at least at low level, Hunter's Mark is solid.
With Crossbow Expert on my level 5 Kobold, I'm getting three shots almost always with advantage at +9 to hit. Casting or moving HM costs a shot (the bonus action), so that's a d6 + 4 lost (7.5 damage, ignoring misses). In return for 2d6 on that turn (7 damage), plus (say) one more turn of 3 extra d6's. 10.5 extra that turn, minus the 0.5 we lost last turn: 10 damage over two turns, ignoring misses or crits - call it 9.5 damage missing on 5's.
9.5 damage per two-rounds of combat, assuming you need to swap it every second round.
So say we do that: one turn of two-shots / moving mark, and one turn of three-shots with mark. We do 4 turns a battle, 3 battles in the hour...
...and we have a total of 58 damage. From a first level spell slot.
And this is *bad*?
Now *obviously* sometimes you lose ground by needing to shift the mark around, and sometimes you'll lose concentration. Sometimes you only get one battle in the hour. It's not really 58 damage. It really matters how tough things are that you're shooting at - you completely destroy the advantage of Mark if you need to swap it every turn.
But I can think of lots of times stealth (PWT) isn't really going to matter, or where long hard fights are happening, or where we're fighting stuff that'd justify the full force of my firepower for multiple rounds.
Against *hard* targets where HM really shines - ones where you can park the mark and just wail on 'em for multiple turns, it's going to be a very damaging spell. In a 5 turn fight against a single target, that 9.5 damage per two-rounds (4.25 dpr) becomes ¬40 damage over the five rounds (8 dpr) - because you only needed one bonus action to park it, and get three shots a turn for the rest of the fight.
40 damage for a single level 1 spell slot.
And if you drop that Troll or whatever a turn early, then that is almost certainly going to be worth WAY more healing than the 10 you get from Goodberry.
Walking into a hard fight, with the right character, it can be *well* worth the slots to drop your Pass Without Trace, and fire up Hunter's Mark.
Always on? Absolutely not.
Excellent use of a level 1 in the right situation? Absolutely.
I think the notion that Hunters Mark is such a must have spell for the Ranger is how well it works for the limited Casting potential a Ranger has.
Lets have a look at our standard Ranger. I will assume point buy, so that we can talk about a realistic Version of the Ranger.
The Rangers at its core is a Martial Class with Half-Spellcasting added. Which means you want to have your combat stat maxed if you play serious and dont have some Gimmick build. You can start with a maximum of 17 in your main Ability and 16 in one other Ability. Lets assume you wanted a more balanced build and went instead with 16 Dex and 14 in Wisdom, leaving points open for some solid Constitution and other Abilities. This means your Spellcasting modifier is a 2. And it will most likely stay a 2 for most of your Adventure, since your ASI, if used for Abilities.
This in turn means your Spell Save DC wont be anything to write home about, making spells with a save always risky. That means Spells like Entangle, while very strong, are always very unreliable.
Next you have the problem that you dont have many Spellslots. As a half Caster, you really have to make each spellslot count, and while I agree that the average Damage each turn from Hunters mark is really low, the fact that its a guaranteed effect with no save and one Spell-Slot lasts for an hour, which can be 2-3 fights in a dungeon and never less than 1 full fight, means that in the end, while its not explosive frontload damage, you will get a very good Damage to Spellslot ratio. In adition to that its cast as a Bonus Action, which means unless you are a Beastmaster or Drakewarden, you dont miss much damage (I excluded the Ranger Subclasses whos Bonus Action use is only to deal more Damage.)
I really think that judging Hunters mark by its potential Damage per Turn is not giving it the credit it deserves.
Lets just assume that you keep Hunters Mark active for 2 small fights, in each of those fights you get 4 rounds of combat. Thats 8d6 extra Damage for a Level 1 Spellslot. And those were very small fights.
So while I agree that Hunters mark is not the flashiest of Spells, and I wouldnt use it on anything but the Hunter or maybe A Fighter with Magic Initiate, since it is incredible Spellslot efficient. I feel like people tend to overlook that when they judge it only by what it can do in 1 round of combat.
And one more thing that shouldnt be Ignored is that while always only costing you a first level Spellslot, the spell gets more powerful when you get multi-Attack. or any other way to attack a Target more than once a turn, since the Bonus Damage is not limited at all. If you would somehow find a way to attack 10 times a turn, you would get 10 triggers of Hunters mark. (Which is of course a very theoretical calculation, A Fighter with Magic Initiate might get it, but I only wanted to make clear that there is no trigger limit).
I’m with you here. Hunter’s mark dirt cheap and crazy efficient over the long haul. And for me, a ranger always wins over the long haul. That sustained damages turn after turn adds up. Other classes take a huge hit to their daily DPR when the party doesn’t short rest that one time or when a long rest is still 6 hours away and the 1/3, 1/2, and even some blasty full casters are out of spell slot has.
I will say that I find a 14 wisdom to be good enough until about levels 11/12. Before that we are mostly talking about a 5% or 10% difference in spell save DC versus a character that is focused on that. And that is only for the handful of ranger spells that even have a spell attack or spell save DC, which isn’t many of them, or even the best ones. A 16 wisdom more than fine. It isn’t like a paladin that ignores charisma and misses out on spell save DC, number of spells prepared, and aura strength.
Yeah, half Casters are in a weird Place sometimes.
The low number of Spell-Slots really means you have to think twice about every spell you cast and since you get spells very late into the game compared to fullcasters, you really have to see if a spell is still relevant when you finally get it.
Offtopic:
Thats why I think the Ranger is a good way to show how absolutely broken Conjure Animals is, you get the Spell at the earliest point at Level 9, when enemies are balanced to deal with spells of Level 5, but just by its own merits, Conjure Animals is still very strong, because it tips the action economy in your favour if the current enemy doesnt happen to have an AoE Ability...
Yep! Even for level 9 rangers conjure animals is a strong choice. Soak attacks and hits, provide mounts, use the help action, use for cover, deal damage, and even if an enemy AoE comes into play they are likely going to go for the most targets, so if that includes less PCs and more animals because of good tactical placement, that is still a win in my book.
I think it's worth point out again, though, that the *concentration* economy can mean Pass Without Trace is often the best place to have your concentration, and that definitely does give a bit of a nerf to HM. I still think it's well worth having up your sleeve.
TBH, I also feel, just as a player, that PWT is a bit ... over the top. It depends on the setting and the DM, but it can be a bit obnoxious. I'm in it to play fun, not roflstomp through a pre-made that didn't think of +10 stealth. If that sort of magical semi-invisibility fits the mood of the setting, sure, but most games really don't feel like they do.
But I'm a compulsive self-nerfer, so that's my illness to deal with, not yours. :)
I will say that I find a 14 wisdom to be good enough until about levels 11/12. Before that we are mostly talking about a 5% or 10% difference in spell save DC versus a character that is focused on that.
along with the 14 wisdom PHB Rangers are more likely to be able to "remember" what creatures have good str, dex or con saves. so they can plan ahead and not waste entangle on a creature that has an unclear save bonus or is immune to restrained conditons.
A couple of ideas I have for this.
1. PWT provides zero invisibility. All sight rules for hiding and stealth still apply. Including light sources. So an entire party still needs some kind of visual cover to actually stealth. Wherether that be darkness, full cover obstacles, invisibility, or whatnot. Creatures with darkvision have disadvantage on perception checks based on sight when using darkvision. If you use a light source, PWT or not, other creatures can see you maybe a mile away. P.S. Since you and I are self admitted nerfers, I typically take the ruling on darkvision that a creature has to be in the dim light or darkness themself for darkvision to work. P.P.S. The dungeon master screens have official guidelines for vision and hearing distances under specific circumstances. I find those to be very helpful.
2. When I have a party roll a stealth check I use the lowest roll for the noise they make. No group checks. Group checks for things with an absolute floor, like trying to be quiet, always bothered me. So if you have a party of 4 ninjas and 1 artificier with tin cans tied to their belt, the DM uses the worst stealth roll made by any one member of the stealthing party. With that method you'd be surprised (no pun intended) how much that +10 almost isn't enough for a zero dexterity, heavy armor, no stealth proficiency character to not screw it up.
3. 100% of the time when not in combat, meaning not in 6 second rounds, the game follows the rules for adventuring, including time, movement, travel pace, difficult terrain, marching order, and perhaps most important for this post, activity while traveling. Characters can do ONE THING while traveling outside of combat. Characters can do one thing and move stealthily if they cut their movement pace and take longer to get places. (Since this is a ranger forum post I'll take the time to mention here that a ranger in a favored terrain can move stealthily at a normal pace (as can a beast companion), can't get lost (meaning no navigation check is required), can do another thing (like tracking, foraging, poison harvesting, etc.), all while applying their passive perception. Plus a beast companion can make perception checks as well, and many beasts have PP scores of 20+ after ranger bonuses, even in tiers 1 and 2!) If a character does anything else (casting a cantrip, tracking, foraging, searching for traps, etc.) they do NOT use their PP! If the party is moving at a normal or fast pace a character can use their activity while traveling to stealth, but then again they are NOT using their PP while traveling.
TBH I usually start with both a 16 Dex and either a 16 or 17 Wisdom but Dex never goes above 16. On most of my Ranger builds wisdom is boosted with ASIs or a half feat every time it is offered.
With Druidic Warrior Magic Stone and Shilaleagh, there is no real need for higher than a 14 Dexterity. 14 gives you the max +2 bonus with medium Armor and 16 Wisdom gives you +3 on attacks and damage with either of these. That is also if you want both ranged and melee, if you are primarily a melee guy you can go for Shilleleagh only.
If you do this you get what are by Ranger standards good attacks, good AC and great spell DCs. It opens up the full range of Ranger spells and others you can add with Wisdom-boosting feats like Fey Touched and Shadow Touched. Take an odd Wisdom and one of these feats plus Primal awareness at 3rd level and you have about as many spells to cast in a day as a full caster of the same level (albeit with some once a day castings and lower level spells). With your primal spells and subclass spells you also have as many or more spells known than a lot of casters.
When you do this, Hunter's Mark is not that great even compared to other 1st level offensive options like Ensnaring Strike or Entangle.
I would not call this a gimmick build, it is playing to the Ranger's strengths and the rules in the class.
Tasha’s has certainly given rangers a strong and super ego way to be a wisdom based class. The only caveats to this is assuming folks don’t want to be a dexterity focused ranger, or they have access to any or all of the optional books, like Tasha’s.
Agreed. But a Tasha's wisdom-ranger is huge fun to play, especially if you play a Fey Wanderer and pick up cause fear through Shadow Touched ..... or worse find a Wand of Fear.
Oh yes! I am not at all saying that it isn’t awesome sauce. Wisdom rangers for the win!
I feel like I'm somewhere in the middle. Most of my Rangers start with at least a 16 Dex and a 16 Wis, with Con being relegated to tertiary stat. I tend to alternate between pumping Dex and Wis (favoring Dex slightly only in that I tend to pump it first) until both get to 20.
Dex is good for more than just AC and weapon attacks. Dex is useful for good initiative and physical skills like Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, and especially Stealth. I trade in stealth a lot with my Rangers, with or without Pass Without Trace. Some of my Rangers even pick up Thieves Tools through a background or feat because they're useful to have but I'm loathe to play a Rogue. At any rate, Dex is immensely useful for scouting and combat. And since I pump Dex, my weapon choice tends to use it as well. Whether it's a Long Bow, a pair of Short Swords, a Rapier/Shield combo, a Whip, or -campaign permitting- a Firearm.
Wis is also very important to my Rangers. Not just for the high Spell Save DC that lets me choose spells like Entangle, Ensnaring Strike, and Summon X, but also because Deft Explorer: Tireless (when I choose it) scales off my Wisdom modifier. In addition to that, I need Wisdom for some key Ranger skills like Perception, Insight, Survival, and Animal Handling. And if I'm taking Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer over their Tasha counterparts, then that's all the more reason to invest in Wisdom. I want high Survival to increase my odds of successfully tracking with Favored Enemy. I want high Wisdom skills to pump with the expertise of my Favored Terrains. Druidic Warrior and the new Beast Master Primal Companions just add more reason to consider prioritizing Wis.
So for me, Dex and Wis are both incredibly valuable and I try never to neglect one or the other. In terms of durability and concentration -since I am neglecting Con to focus on the aforementioned two- I tend to make my builds as slippery as possible. If I can't/don't get hit, my relatively low Con doesn't matter as much. This might take the form of the Mobile feat, Misty Step via Fey Touched, Zephyr Strike, a reach weapon (whip), or a ranged weapon (longbow.) Or hell, maybe even my subclass choice (Horizon Walker, Fey Wanderer.)
(And no, I don't take all the skills I listed on every single Ranger. That's a lot of feat investment. But I do take enough from both Ability Scores that it's always prudent, in my experience, to keep them both competitive.)
Sorry for later reaction...
But please, by this you meant using a familiar or a servant to carry a goodberry and potentially stabilize a downed ally? Cuz the way I understand RAW this should not be possible.
Or you had something else in mind?