I think "fixing" natural explorer is just about defining "Related" and some other basics. (similar to Favored foe)
take a beast from your favored terrain. example " flying snakes
Should you get your bonus?
harvesting poison from a flying snake in your terrain
history of migration patterns of flying snakes
tracking a flying snake(from your terrain) outside your terrain
detecting a spell that uses flying snake skin as a component?
tracking a flying snake from another terrain in your own?
Tracking a flying snake from another terrain in its own terrain(which you don't have)?
investigating a snake bite (either favored and non creature) ?
creating a natural antidote.
passively detecting All or some flying snakes.
I have seen dms and players argue all of those and more? but if a dm (or possibly a player) it adds too much complexity it gets out side of the core concept of "simple resolutions" which is what made 5e grow in popularity. Tables that simplify and say yes to "most related" questions have a good time (and it rarely makes them op). dms that say no often are usually the ones complaining for radical overalls of the class features.
when I get fair treatment of FT and FE. I feel as a ranger I don't need extra spells, damage features, or other features and the phb ranger is still fun to play and carries its weight without outshining other "Party roles."
I have speculated before that the 5.5 update will probably give rangers a Flat # of uses for intelligence/wisdom advantage and "functional expertise" but leave the rest of the low level abilities the same.
Almost every PHB ranger ability suffers some vagueness that has a wide scope. just tightening the wording to where "bad faith DMs cant ruin a rangers day" would make the base ranger perfect. IMO
As a whole its ok but feels lacking to me. I don't expect trying it out will create a more interesting experience than the ranger current material. feature elegance is important and I think a lot could be simplified with quarry and mark for death. I like the idea of adding the frightened condition to the capstone (Even though so many enemies could be immune and if not will have legendary resistance.)
Attempt to Solve the problems with NE or FE wording and I will try and see if its more fun or interesting than the phb ranger.
Some nitpicking/suggestions - 1) leather armor in the wilds is useless it really should be studded leather or scale that they get. ( of course studded leather was actually a chain/splint brigantine with the metal sandwiched between cloth/leather pieces riveted through it all creating the appearance of studs on the surface). 2) the short swords (piercing/stabbing) should be replaced with scimitars ( no, not because of Driz’zt) scimitars effectively represent machetes (chopping/slicing) blades that work better against brush/reeds/saplings/etc than short or long swords or even hand axes. 3 giving the ranger survival flat out creates a problem with the outsider, feylost, fisher, folk hero, and marine backgrounds that also grants survival. You might want to change that to nature which is not given in any background (I think). That may also help with the terrains problem as they could then adapt their skill to any new terrain after a period of time in it (week/month?). 4) under spells - did you mean the Ranger spell list? You say Paladin list in the write up. 5) I’m with roscoe on the quarry ability it’s too much and but some good ideas. I’m not sure how to change it other than that it needs some simplifying. 6) Natural endurance - the THP should just be the 2x WB. If you look at spells and abilities granting THP it’s never really more than 10 so the 30 max this gives now is way out of line. 7) Feral senses - should be just 10’ unless you have blind fighting which would combine for the 30’ range. 8) personally I would remove the L14 quarry benefits and replace it with the Apex predator then give rangers a second fighting style at L10. For often solo adventurers being able to be both ranged and melee specialized is a good idea and only the hunter fighter gets this so it’s already sort of close to being a rangers thing.
As a whole its ok but feels lacking to me. I don't expect trying it out will create a more interesting experience than the ranger current material. feature elegance is important and I think a lot could be simplified with quarry and mark for death. I like the idea of adding the frightened condition to the capstone (Even though so many enemies could be immune and if not will have legendary resistance.)
Attempt to Solve the problems with NE or FE wording and I will try and see if its more fun or interesting than the phb ranger.
Thanks for the input been trying to get this together for a while. As for what you pointed out;
"As a whole its ok but feels lacking to me"; What do you think is lacking?
"Feature elegance is important and I think a lot could be simplified with quarry and mark for death. I like the idea of adding the frightened condition to the capstone (Even though so many enemies could be immune and if not will have legendary resistance.)"; Just reread the ability and it does need some cleaning up. As for the fear mechanic, I am saddened that so many things are immune to the condition and it spans from CR 30 to CR 0 which is about 22-ish percent. Good thing I am taking notes.
"Attempt to Solve the problems with NE or FE wording and I will try and see if its more fun or interesting than the phb ranger."; I plan on creating an alternate class feature that gives the original natural explorer feature more favored terrain selections and a means to be useful outside of the chosen favored terrains. Likely by breaking down what the original natural explorer offers and separating it throughout level ups and moving other parts of it to other features. I did it a small bit but I will definitely work something out. As for favored enemy there are actually bonuses laced throughout the class features if you are actively engaging with your favored enemy, though I suppose only being able to select 3 is rough.
Thank you for the feedback and i look forward to anything else you may have to offer.
Some nitpicking/suggestions - 1) leather armor in the wilds is useless it really should be studded leather or scale that they get. ( of course studded leather was actually a chain/splint brigantine with the metal sandwiched between cloth/leather pieces riveted through it all creating the appearance of studs on the surface). 2) the short swords (piercing/stabbing) should be replaced with scimitars ( no, not because of Driz’zt) scimitars effectively represent machetes (chopping/slicing) blades that work better against brush/reeds/saplings/etc than short or long swords or even hand axes. 3 giving the ranger survival flat out creates a problem with the outsider, feylost, fisher, folk hero, and marine backgrounds that also grants survival. You might want to change that to nature which is not given in any background (I think). That may also help with the terrains problem as they could then adapt their skill to any new terrain after a period of time in it (week/month?). 4) under spells - did you mean the Ranger spell list? You say Paladin list in the write up. 5) I’m with roscoe on the quarry ability it’s too much and but some good ideas. I’m not sure how to change it other than that it needs some simplifying. 6) Natural endurance - the THP should just be the 2x WB. If you look at spells and abilities granting THP it’s never really more than 10 so the 30 max this gives now is way out of line. 7) Feral senses - should be just 10’ unless you have blind fighting which would combine for the 30’ range. 8) personally I would remove the L14 quarry benefits and replace it with the Apex predator then give rangers a second fighting style at L10. For often solo adventurers being able to be both ranged and melee specialized is a good idea and only the hunter fighter gets this so it’s already sort of close to being a rangers thing.
Thanks for the input been trying to get this together for a while. As for what you pointed out;
"1) leather armor in the wilds is useless it really should be studded leather or scale that they get. ( of course studded leather was actually a chain/splint brigantine with the metal sandwiched between cloth/leather pieces riveted through it all creating the appearance of studs on the surface)."; Are you suggesting that rangers should get heavy armor proficiency.
"2) the short swords (piercing/stabbing) should be replaced with scimitars ( no, not because of Driz’zt) scimitars effectively represent machetes (chopping/slicing) blades that work better against brush/reeds/saplings/etc than short or long swords or even hand axes."; I see your point and it would add more options.
"3) giving the ranger survival flat out creates a problem with the outsider, feylost, fisher, folk hero, and marine backgrounds that also grants survival. You might want to change that to nature which is not given in any background (I think). That may also help with the terrains problem as they could then adapt their skill to any new terrain after a period of time in it (week/month?)."; At most I will add verbiage saying that if you gain the survival skill from another source you can pick a different skill from your list of starting skill because survival is what rangers are known for amongst other things.
"4) under spells - did you mean the Ranger spell list? You say Paladin list in the write up."; Yeah that is a mistake that has made it on to my running changelog.
"5) I’m with roscoe on the quarry ability it’s too much and but some good ideas. I’m not sure how to change it other than that it needs some simplifying."; What makes the quarry ability makes it feel like it is too much? Because I may have tunnel vision at this point.
"6) Natural endurance - the THP should just be the 2x WB. If you look at spells and abilities granting THP it’s never really more than 10 so the 30 max this gives now is way out of line."; 2x WIS mod seems low considering Tashsa's tireless feature offer 1d8+ WIS mod in temp HP a number of times with a long rest equal to proficiency bonus, then Fighter samurai subclass gets 5, 10, or 15 temp HP three times with a long rest, the spore druid gets 4 temp HP per druid level by expending a wild shape twice with a short rest, then there is the twilight cleric who can give any allied creature within a 30 foot radius 1d6+cleric level of refreshing temp HP for a minute three times with a short rest through their channel divinity. So I feel out with all the temp HP options out, this version lands in the middle of the pack.
"7) Feral senses - should be just 10’ unless you have blind fighting which would combine for the 30’ range."; Compared to what other characters can do by 18th level 30 feet of blindsight, 40 if you have the blind fighting style technique, and between 60 to 80 feet if you are concentrating seems fine. Especially if someone waits 18 levels to get 40 feet of blindsight.
"8) personally I would remove the L14 quarry benefits and replace it with the Apex predator then give rangers a second fighting style at L10. For often solo adventurers being able to be both ranged and melee specialized is a good idea and only the hunter fighter gets this so it’s already sort of close to being a rangers thing."; You prefer a second fighting style over being able to attack your favored enemy a second time? Also I put apex predator at 10th level so it wouldn't com on too late.
Thank you for the feedback and i look forward to anything else you may have to offer.
1) no not suggestions they get heavy armor proficiency, suggesting they get studded leather instead of leather. Also pointing out that studded leather is actually a DnD creation - the thing we call studded leather is based on drawings that actually showed a heavier ( medium not heavy) armor of small plates or chain panels riveted between cloth or soft leather - brigantine armor that was worn around camp when you might get attacked but weren’t preparing for a formal battle. For the game I’m content to actually have studded leather be a thing on its own and it’s ideal for rangers. 2) we are good here 3) As I said giving them survival flat ut conflicts with a bunch of backgrounds so just letting them take something else instead doesn’t sit right. In addition you need to work something in replacing natural explorer - this is your chance. Change out survival for nature skill, give them the double proficiency and add in the natural explorer abilities. If you want to limit it somewhat give them 3 terrain types to start (their choice) then add another at 6, 10, 14 level. 4) we are good here 5) I’ll come back to this in a separate post - there is a lot in quarry and I’m still digesting it. 6) notice that all of the examples have multiple uses while this is a single use so the 30 THP at L20 is probably ok but, the samurai gets a small boost 3/LR while the large boosts from the Druid and cleric come from using a highly limited resource. You are probably better off going with something similar to the samurai for this. Maybe 2x WB PB times/LR? 7) I can’t think of any creature or class that provides blindsight/tremorsense out past 30’ with the possible exception of dragons. I can see getting it out to 15’ at this level and if you already have it this extending it out to your normal move rate distance but that would be it. 8) bluntly, yes a second fighting style is more useful to my mind. As a ranger you already get a second attack at L5 and some sort of third attack at L11 from your subclass. This means that using. Two weapon fighting you would have 4 attacks and only a straight fighter using TWF would have more (5). When I think of the classic rangers (Aragorn, Robinhood) they are as adept with a bow as with a sword. They don’t have extra attacks but rather supreme skill at range and in melee.
1) no not suggestions they get heavy armor proficiency, suggesting they get studded leather instead of leather. Also pointing out that studded leather is actually a DnD creation - the thing we call studded leather is based on drawings that actually showed a heavier ( medium not heavy) armor of small plates or chain panels riveted between cloth or soft leather - brigantine armor that was worn around camp when you might get attacked but weren’t preparing for a formal battle. For the game I’m content to actually have studded leather be a thing on its own and it’s ideal for rangers. 2) we are good here 3) As I said giving them survival flat ut conflicts with a bunch of backgrounds so just letting them take something else instead doesn’t sit right. In addition you need to work something in replacing natural explorer - this is your chance. Change out survival for nature skill, give them the double proficiency and add in the natural explorer abilities. If you want to limit it somewhat give them 3 terrain types to start (their choice) then add another at 6, 10, 14 level.
4) we are good here 5) I’ll come back to this in a separate post - there is a lot in quarry and I’m still digesting it. 6) notice that all of the examples have multiple uses while this is a single use so the 30 THP at L20 is probably ok but, the samurai gets a small boost 3/LR while the large boosts from the Druid and cleric come from using a highly limited resource. You are probably better off going with something similar to the samurai for this. Maybe 2x WB PB times/LR? 7) I can’t think of any creature or class that provides blindsight/tremorsense out past 30’ with the possible exception of dragons. I can see getting it out to 15’ at this level and if you already have it this extending it out to your normal move rate distance but that would be it. 8) bluntly, yes a second fighting style is more useful to my mind. As a ranger you already get a second attack at L5 and some sort of third attack at L11 from your subclass. This means that using. Two weapon fighting you would have 4 attacks and only a straight fighter using TWF would have more (5). When I think of the classic rangers (Aragorn, Robinhood) they are as adept with a bow as with a sword. They don’t have extra attacks but rather supreme skill at range and in melee.
Thanks for the detailed replies they are helping a lot. As for what you pointed out;
"3) As I said giving them survival flat out conflicts with a bunch of backgrounds so just letting them take something else instead doesn’t sit right. In addition you need to work something in replacing natural explorer - this is your chance. Change out survival for nature skill, give them the double proficiency and add in the natural explorer abilities. If you want to limit it somewhat give them 3 terrain types to start (their choice) then add another at 6, 10, 14 level."; Yes, proficiency and expertise in the nature skill is more fitting for gleaming information about terrain but the survival skill has claim to it as it lets you pull of what Aragorn was able to when tracking the halflings. Giving proficiency and expertise in either skill would be stepping on the toes of a background. Original nature explorer gave the ranger a lot of stuff without needing to roll and is why I broke it down by removing what could be covered by a die roll like "While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area; When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would.Difficult terrain doesn't slow your group's travel waschanged to just not slowing the ranger.Your group can't become lost except by magical means;I may put this back. The vanish feature has If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace rolled into it. Just adding more levels in which the ranger gains an additional terrain selection seems lazy and mixing it with what I have done seems like too much. Maybe giving the option to gain proficiency and expertise in nature or survival and the expertise in one other that way you can build what best fits the concept people are going for.
"5) I’ll come back to this in a separate post - there is a lot in quarry and I’m still digesting it. 8) bluntly, yes a second fighting style is more useful to my mind. As a ranger you already get a second attack at L5 and some sort of third attack at L11 from your subclass. This means that using. Two weapon fighting you would have 4 attacks and only a straight fighter using TWF would have more (5). When I think of the classic rangers (Aragorn, Robinhood) they are as adept with a bow as with a sword. They don’t have extra attacks but rather supreme skill at range and in melee."; The quarry feature replaces the rangers access to hunters mark spell. Meaning the Hunter's Mark Spell can no longer be selected or prepared by the ranger. It still has hunters mark mechanics but it scale from a 1d4 to 1d8 and has additional benefits if you happen to mark a favorite enemy. For 6th I just rolled part of the old foe slayer in because it was lack luster for a 20th level ability.Though the third attack at 14 is a bit much I'll have to think of something else. Maybe make a suite of ranger only fighting styles?
"7) I can’t think of any creature or class that provides blindsight/ tremorsense out past 30’ with the possible exception of dragons. I can see getting it out to 15’ at this level and if you already have it this extending it out to your normal move rate distance but that would be it."; There are actually quite a few and even throughout the CR 0 range and that is just blindsight. The range I have it set at actually gives it the feel of a high level ability but dropping the extra 10 feet does seem fine. The original feral senses was also a 30 foot radius it was just worded in a complicated way. Maybe add in that while concentrating the Ranger is blind beyond this radius.
"6) notice that all of the examples have multiple uses while this is a single use so the 30 THP at L20 is probably ok but, the samurai gets a small boost 3/LR while the large boosts from the Druid and cleric come from using a highly limited resource. You are probably better off going with something similar to the samurai for this. Maybe 2x WB PB times/LR?"; For this maybe lower how much is gained over a short rest maybe 1d10+wisdom mod and leave the level + 2x wisdom mod as is since it reflects the stronger benefits from a long rest.
Thank you for the feedback and i look forward to anything else you may have to offer.
Sorry for taking so long to reply but real life gets in the way sometimes. 3) No background in the books I have grants nature as a skill, even the Druid class doesn’t grant it - only has it as a selectable choice. Survival is granted by 5 backgrounds which is why I recommended changing from survival to nature. Being able to roll some of natural explorer into that is a bonus. Generally if something is granted elsewhere it’s a clue not to include it where it isn’t granted. I would put that stuff back in and let it be a roll - at 2x PB your going to make the rolls most of the time and the misses actually do happen even to the best trackers etc. Given that they now have any nature roll at 2x PB you don’t really need natural explorer and terrains as that gave the x2 only to specific terrains. Always remember KIS/S when designing 😁
5) As a replacement for hunters mark/favored foe it works well. I notice that it is no longer concentration based - is that intentional or not? I also was looking it over again and saw that you don’t actually have anything for favored Nemo at L14 - as I said I would recommend putting Apex Predator in there and giving the ranger a second fighting style like the Champion ( not hunter as I misspoke the first time) as the L10 ability. I think that would serve the class far better.
7) the original feral senses was basically preternatural hearing as it could be stopped with deafness. I think you might want to keep the title but extend it to scent in the text so they could locate even hidden/invisible foes out to 30’ even when blinded and deafened. Blindsight does the same thing . The range is really to keep the action in melee range and not missile range. Keeping the range to @30’ maintains this as mostly - it allows for thrown or short range missiles while preventing the use of long range missiles with this ability which makes since to me. I can see ( as I’ve posted before) allowing it to extend out to the ranger’s normal move rate distance (45’ for a level 6+ wood elf ranger) but that would be the max I can see.
6) Again KIS/S (keep it short/simple) trying to do something on both a short and long rest is probably a mistake. A large amount once/LR is not wholly unreasonable but but smaller amounts more frequently is probably more useful. Keep in mind that the Druid and Cleric are giving up their highly limited (2/SR) class abilities to get the large boost while the ranger is giving up nothing so smaller amounts more often like the samurai are a better way to go. Using the level for this is probably too much especially at high levels. Using wisdom bonus is probably better than using constitution as it’s less likely to be maxed but either one or a combination of the two ( CB+WB?) seems reasonable.
Sorry for taking so long to reply but real life gets in the way sometimes. 3) No background in the books I have grants nature as a skill, even the Druid class doesn’t grant it - only has it as a selectable choice. Survival is granted by 5 backgrounds which is why I recommended changing from survival to nature. Being able to roll some of natural explorer into that is a bonus. Generally if something is granted elsewhere it’s a clue not to include it where it isn’t granted. I would put that stuff back in and let it be a roll - at 2x PB your going to make the rolls most of the time and the misses actually do happen even to the best trackers etc. Given that they now have any nature roll at 2x PB you don’t really need natural explorer and terrains as that gave the x2 only to specific terrains. Always remember KIS/S when designing 😁
5) As a replacement for hunters mark/favored foe it works well. I notice that it is no longer concentration based - is that intentional or not? I also was looking it over again and saw that you don’t actually have anything for favored Nemo at L14 - as I said I would recommend putting Apex Predator in there and giving the ranger a second fighting style like the Champion ( not hunter as I misspoke the first time) as the L10 ability. I think that would serve the class far better.
7) the original feral senses was basically preternatural hearing as it could be stopped with deafness. I think you might want to keep the title but extend it to scent in the text so they could locate even hidden/invisible foes out to 30’ even when blinded and deafened. Blindsight does the same thing . The range is really to keep the action in melee range and not missile range. Keeping the range to @30’ maintains this as mostly - it allows for thrown or short range missiles while preventing the use of long range missiles with this ability which makes since to me. I can see ( as I’ve posted before) allowing it to extend out to the ranger’s normal move rate distance (45’ for a level 6+ wood elf ranger) but that would be the max I can see.
6) Again KIS/S (keep it short/simple) trying to do something on both a short and long rest is probably a mistake. A large amount once/LR is not wholly unreasonable but but smaller amounts more frequently is probably more useful. Keep in mind that the Druid and Cleric are giving up their highly limited (2/SR) class abilities to get the large boost while the ranger is giving up nothing so smaller amounts more often like the samurai are a better way to go. Using the level for this is probably too much especially at high levels. Using wisdom bonus is probably better than using constitution as it’s less likely to be maxed but either one or a combination of the two ( CB+WB?) seems reasonable.
Sorry for taking so long to reply life is a bit hectic at the moment. As for what you pointed out;
"3) No background in the books I have grants nature as a skill, even the Druid class doesn’t grant it - only has it as a selectable choice. Survival is granted by 5 backgrounds which is why I recommended changing from survival to nature. Being able to roll some of natural explorer into that is a bonus. Generally if something is granted elsewhere it’s a clue not to include it where it isn’t granted. I would put that stuff back in and let it be a roll - at 2x PB your going to make the rolls most of the time and the misses actually do happen even to the best trackers etc. Given that they now have any nature roll at 2x PB you don’t really need natural explorer and terrains as that gave the x2 only to specific terrains. Always remember KIS/S when designing 😁; "There are 7 backgrounds that give proficiency in nature skill and 14 that gives proficiency in survival from what I found on here (D&D Beyond). The Druid class not being given the skill nature from the start that is beyond me. As for keeping all the benefits of nature explorer at 1st level on top of everything else gained at 6th and 10th level would be too much. Giving the ranger the option to get nature or survival would offers players the chance to customize and pick backgrounds outside of the norm for what is usually paired with the ranger class.
"5) As a replacement for hunters mark/favored foe it works well. I notice that it is no longer concentration based - is that intentional or not? I also was looking it over again and saw that you don’t actually have anything for favored Nemo at L14 - as I said I would recommend putting Apex Predator in there and giving the ranger a second fighting style like the Champion ( not hunter as I misspoke the first time) as the L10 ability. I think that would serve the class far better."; It no longer requiring concentration is intentional as I added a caveat saying, To balance this take of the Ranger the Quarry class feature replaces the rangers access to hunters mark spell. Meaning the Hunter's Mark Spell can no longer be selected or prepared by the ranger. Yes, this means someone could take the magic initiate feat to pick up hex or multiclass to get it and but that takes time and an investment to set up. Making it not require concentration also frees up all the other spells that also require concentration. Moving apex to 14th lvl would no longer provide a bonus for marking a favorite enemy and adding another fighting style choice at 10th lvl feels lackluster. Also I'm trying to work something along the lines of an extra fight style into my hunter subclass rework.
"6) Again KIS/S (keep it short/simple) trying to do something on both a short and long rest is probably a mistake. A large amount once/LR is not wholly unreasonable but but smaller amounts more frequently is probably more useful. Keep in mind that the Druid and Cleric are giving up their highly limited (2/SR) class abilities to get the large boost while the ranger is giving up nothing so smaller amounts more often like the samurai are a better way to go. Using the level for this is probably too much especially at high levels. Using wisdom bonus is probably better than using constitution as it’s less likely to be maxed but either one or a combination of the two ( CB+WB?) seems reasonable."; After looking at it I'm gonna keep it as is because it seems all the martial classes have some form of survivability option barbarian has rage, fighter has second wind, monk has quickened healing (though costly), and paladin has its potentially huge lay on hands pool.
"7) the original feral senses was basically preternatural hearing as it could be stopped with deafness. I think you might want to keep the title but extend it to scent in the text so they could locate even hidden/invisible foes out to 30’ even when blinded and deafened. Blindsight does the same thing . The range is really to keep the action in melee range and not missile range. Keeping the range to @30’ maintains this as mostly - it allows for thrown or short range missiles while preventing the use of long range missiles with this ability which makes since to me. I can see ( as I’ve posted before) allowing it to extend out to the ranger’s normal move rate distance (45’ for a level 6+ wood elf ranger) but that would be the max I can see."; Yes feral senses was just blindsight but worded differently. The set ranges of 30 feet to 60 feet (if concentrating) or 40 feet (with the blind fighting style) to 80 feet (if concentrating) is good. if the range is tied to movement speed it can get even more out of hand for example. wood elf base speed 35, 6th lvl get extra 10 feet, takes the mobile feat +10 feet, takes last 2 lvls in monk +10 feet, pick the horizon walker subclass for haste movement speed x2; your blind sight radius would then equal (35+10+10+10)x2= 130 foot blindsight radius. Only a few creatures have blindsight out to 120 feet.
Made a few small changes to the quarry feature let me know what you think. Thanks for the feed back and keep it coming its helping a ton.
It is fine I think. I do not think it outperforms Tasha's Ranger though. Tasha's changes combined with their subclasses makes Rangers probably the most powerful martial class, this is more middle of the pack I think.
This is about equal to Tasha's until level 8, but Tasha's Ranger is going to outrun it after that IMO.
Yes, this means someone could take the magic initiate feat to pick up hex or multiclass to get it and but that takes time and an investment to set up.
Not really. You can get Hex with Fey Touched Feat while also boosting Wisdom. That is not much of an investment. Start with an odd wisdom or a human/custom and it is no investment at all.
I rarely even have Hunter Mark on Rangers I play, but I get Hex pretty often.
TBH the bigger investment I think wasting a spell known on HM when there are so many better spells available.
It is fine I think. I do not think it outperforms Tasha's Ranger though. Tasha's changes combined with their subclasses makes Rangers probably the most powerful martial class, this is more middle of the pack I think.
This is about equal to Tasha's until level 8, but Tasha's Ranger is going to outrun it after that IMO.
Thanks for adding to the conversation.
Could you go into detail on how it is about equal to Tasha's until level 8, but Tasha's Ranger is going to outrun it? I’m building my take of the Ranger with the intentions of working with the already existing subclasses?
Thank you for the feedback and i look forward to anything else you may have to offer.
It is fine I think. I do not think it outperforms Tasha's Ranger though. Tasha's changes combined with their subclasses makes Rangers probably the most powerful martial class, this is more middle of the pack I think.
This is about equal to Tasha's until level 8, but Tasha's Ranger is going to outrun it after that IMO.
Thanks for adding to the conversation.
Could you go into detail on how it is about equal to Tasha's until level 8, but Tasha's Ranger is going to outrun it? I’m building my take of the Ranger with the intentions of working with the already existing subclasses?
Thank you for the feedback and i look forward to anything else you may have to offer.
This Ranger has a slight improvement with Quarry replacing Favored Foe but it loses Canny and Primal awareness, I would say those are awash up to level 8. But as more spells come online from Primal Awarteness at later levels (starting with 3rd level spells at 9th level) I think Tasha's Ranger becomes progressively more effective.
At higher levels, in addition to piling up spells with Primal Awareness, Tasha's Rangers get Natures Veil and Tireless. Tireless is ok but Nature's Veil is one of the best of any class abilities in the game and nothing here equals it. Hiding as a bonus action does not compete with becoming invisible as a bonus action, especially considering the advantage on the attack, including melee attacks you get from the invisibility.
It is fine I think. I do not think it outperforms Tasha's Ranger though. Tasha's changes combined with their subclasses makes Rangers probably the most powerful martial class, this is more middle of the pack I think.
This is about equal to Tasha's until level 8, but Tasha's Ranger is going to outrun it after that IMO.
Thanks for adding to the conversation.
Could you go into detail on how it is about equal to Tasha's until level 8, but Tasha's Ranger is going to outrun it? I’m building my take of the Ranger with the intentions of working with the already existing subclasses?
Thank you for the feedback and i look forward to anything else you may have to offer.
This Ranger has a slight improvement with Quarry replacing Favored Foe but it loses Canny and Primal awareness, I would say those are awash up to level 8. But as more spells come online from Primal Awarteness at later levels (starting with 3rd level spells at 9th level) I think Tasha's Ranger becomes progressively more effective.
At higher levels, in addition to piling up spells with Primal Awareness, Tasha's Rangers get Natures Veil and Tireless. Tireless is ok but Nature's Veil is one of the best of any class abilities in the game and nothing here equals it. Hiding as a bonus action does not compete with becoming invisible as a bonus action, especially considering the advantage on the attack, including melee attacks you get from the invisibility.
"it loses Canny and Primal awareness"; The 1st level of hunting prowess gives the following; At 1st level, you gain proficiency in the nature or survival skill and your proficiency bonus is doubled for the chosen skill and one other skill of your choice. So it matches canny and one up it as well by giving you an additional skill. As for primal awareness its good that you get spells that do not cost a slot on the first casting or against you spells known but overall you only get 5 extra spells while still having the shortest spells known list versus every other caster (full/half/tri). By switching this take of the ranger from spells known to prepared casting provides more freedom to choose what you want instead of being forced into having some spells that might get used. Also switching to prepared spells effectively doubles the amount of spells the ranger will get at later levels since they can prepare an amount of spells equal to half level plus wis mod.
"Tasha's Rangers get Natures Veil and Tireless"; For tireless I increased the amount of temp HP the ranger gets and how often it is applied making it more reliable and it no longer takes any action. For the second half of tireless I did away with lowering exhaustion level on a short rest in exchange for improved healing when using hit dice. Natures Veil is good but its a limited resource with a long rest reset. Something more consistent would better fit the ranger since there are definitely times where a ranger will burn through all their resources with no short or long rest in sight.
Thank you for the feedback and I'm looking forward to anything else you have to offer.
Ok that explains that - I don’t have ravnica and have SCAG and Strixhaven in paper not here. Stil most of those are not what I really think of as ranger backgrounds. I can see the strixhaven ones possibly and maybe faction agent (harpers/lordsAlliance/moonstars/etc) I still think it would be better to give the ranger nature than survival and let survival come from a background rather than nature ( or come from a skill selection as a ranger). Personally, when actually building a character I go: race, abilities, background, class and then equipment I will take a look at the backgrounds in SCAG and Strixhavenand maybe add more comment here again.
Yes custom backgrounds are RAW, but with a custom background you are are working around the published backgrounds and toward a specific character concept. Zac is ( I believe) trying to put together a revised version of the ranger that will work with the published backgrounds. Which is why I was interested in those that gave nature as a skill since we were discussing his inclusion of the survival skill into the core class. After reading the (published) backgrounds in Strixhaven and SCAG, the SCAG backgrounds listed above have nature as an option but not a given as such the ranger could be being given nature instead of survival just as easily with no serious harm to the use of the background.
The Strixhaven backgrounds do give nature as a skill but only one makes a lot of sense as a ranger background ( WitherBloom). I can see some ways that Quandrix could be a background ( especially for a horizon walker) but I see witherbloom as much more suited to most ranger builds if using the Strixhaven backgrounds. So it’s really 2 published backgrounds granting nature vs 14 (I believe you said earlier) granting survival ( is that including the Uthgardt Tribesman background or is that one #15?). So again I suggest that to avoid negative interactions with as many (published) backgrounds as possible it be the nature skill that is folded into the revised ranger not the survival skill.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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I think "fixing" natural explorer is just about defining "Related" and some other basics. (similar to Favored foe)
take a beast from your favored terrain. example " flying snakes
Should you get your bonus?
I have seen dms and players argue all of those and more? but if a dm (or possibly a player) it adds too much complexity it gets out side of the core concept of "simple resolutions" which is what made 5e grow in popularity. Tables that simplify and say yes to "most related" questions have a good time (and it rarely makes them op). dms that say no often are usually the ones complaining for radical overalls of the class features.
when I get fair treatment of FT and FE. I feel as a ranger I don't need extra spells, damage features, or other features and the phb ranger is still fun to play and carries its weight without outshining other "Party roles."
I have speculated before that the 5.5 update will probably give rangers a Flat # of uses for intelligence/wisdom advantage and "functional expertise" but leave the rest of the low level abilities the same.
Almost every PHB ranger ability suffers some vagueness that has a wide scope. just tightening the wording to where "bad faith DMs cant ruin a rangers day" would make the base ranger perfect. IMO
Thanks for adding to the conversation. What are your thoughts on the revision as a whole.
Looking forward to any question or suggestions you may have.
As a whole its ok but feels lacking to me. I don't expect trying it out will create a more interesting experience than the ranger current material. feature elegance is important and I think a lot could be simplified with quarry and mark for death. I like the idea of adding the frightened condition to the capstone (Even though so many enemies could be immune and if not will have legendary resistance.)
Attempt to Solve the problems with NE or FE wording and I will try and see if its more fun or interesting than the phb ranger.
Some nitpicking/suggestions -
1) leather armor in the wilds is useless it really should be studded leather or scale that they get. ( of course studded leather was actually a chain/splint brigantine with the metal sandwiched between cloth/leather pieces riveted through it all creating the appearance of studs on the surface).
2) the short swords (piercing/stabbing) should be replaced with scimitars ( no, not because of Driz’zt) scimitars effectively represent machetes (chopping/slicing) blades that work better against brush/reeds/saplings/etc than short or long swords or even hand axes.
3 giving the ranger survival flat out creates a problem with the outsider, feylost, fisher, folk hero, and marine backgrounds that also grants survival. You might want to change that to nature which is not given in any background (I think). That may also help with the terrains problem as they could then adapt their skill to any new terrain after a period of time in it (week/month?).
4) under spells - did you mean the Ranger spell list? You say Paladin list in the write up.
5) I’m with roscoe on the quarry ability it’s too much and but some good ideas. I’m not sure how to change it other than that it needs some simplifying.
6) Natural endurance - the THP should just be the 2x WB. If you look at spells and abilities granting THP it’s never really more than 10 so the 30 max this gives now is way out of line.
7) Feral senses - should be just 10’ unless you have blind fighting which would combine for the 30’ range.
8) personally I would remove the L14 quarry benefits and replace it with the Apex predator then give rangers a second fighting style at L10. For often solo adventurers being able to be both ranged and melee specialized is a good idea and only the hunter fighter gets this so it’s already sort of close to being a rangers thing.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Thanks for the input been trying to get this together for a while. As for what you pointed out;
"As a whole its ok but feels lacking to me"; What do you think is lacking?
"Feature elegance is important and I think a lot could be simplified with quarry and mark for death. I like the idea of adding the frightened condition to the capstone (Even though so many enemies could be immune and if not will have legendary resistance.)"; Just reread the ability and it does need some cleaning up. As for the fear mechanic, I am saddened that so many things are immune to the condition and it spans from CR 30 to CR 0 which is about 22-ish percent. Good thing I am taking notes.
"Attempt to Solve the problems with NE or FE wording and I will try and see if its more fun or interesting than the phb ranger."; I plan on creating an alternate class feature that gives the original natural explorer feature more favored terrain selections and a means to be useful outside of the chosen favored terrains. Likely by breaking down what the original natural explorer offers and separating it throughout level ups and moving other parts of it to other features. I did it a small bit but I will definitely work something out. As for favored enemy there are actually bonuses laced throughout the class features if you are actively engaging with your favored enemy, though I suppose only being able to select 3 is rough.
Thank you for the feedback and i look forward to anything else you may have to offer.
Thanks for the input been trying to get this together for a while. As for what you pointed out;
"1) leather armor in the wilds is useless it really should be studded leather or scale that they get. ( of course studded leather was actually a chain/splint brigantine with the metal sandwiched between cloth/leather pieces riveted through it all creating the appearance of studs on the surface)."; Are you suggesting that rangers should get heavy armor proficiency.
"2) the short swords (piercing/stabbing) should be replaced with scimitars ( no, not because of Driz’zt) scimitars effectively represent machetes (chopping/slicing) blades that work better against brush/reeds/saplings/etc than short or long swords or even hand axes."; I see your point and it would add more options.
"3) giving the ranger survival flat out creates a problem with the outsider, feylost, fisher, folk hero, and marine backgrounds that also grants survival. You might want to change that to nature which is not given in any background (I think). That may also help with the terrains problem as they could then adapt their skill to any new terrain after a period of time in it (week/month?)."; At most I will add verbiage saying that if you gain the survival skill from another source you can pick a different skill from your list of starting skill because survival is what rangers are known for amongst other things.
"4) under spells - did you mean the Ranger spell list? You say Paladin list in the write up."; Yeah that is a mistake that has made it on to my running changelog.
"5) I’m with roscoe on the quarry ability it’s too much and but some good ideas. I’m not sure how to change it other than that it needs some simplifying."; What makes the quarry ability makes it feel like it is too much? Because I may have tunnel vision at this point.
"6) Natural endurance - the THP should just be the 2x WB. If you look at spells and abilities granting THP it’s never really more than 10 so the 30 max this gives now is way out of line."; 2x WIS mod seems low considering Tashsa's tireless feature offer 1d8+ WIS mod in temp HP a number of times with a long rest equal to proficiency bonus, then Fighter samurai subclass gets 5, 10, or 15 temp HP three times with a long rest, the spore druid gets 4 temp HP per druid level by expending a wild shape twice with a short rest, then there is the twilight cleric who can give any allied creature within a 30 foot radius 1d6+cleric level of refreshing temp HP for a minute three times with a short rest through their channel divinity. So I feel out with all the temp HP options out, this version lands in the middle of the pack.
"7) Feral senses - should be just 10’ unless you have blind fighting which would combine for the 30’ range."; Compared to what other characters can do by 18th level 30 feet of blindsight, 40 if you have the blind fighting style technique, and between 60 to 80 feet if you are concentrating seems fine. Especially if someone waits 18 levels to get 40 feet of blindsight.
"8) personally I would remove the L14 quarry benefits and replace it with the Apex predator then give rangers a second fighting style at L10. For often solo adventurers being able to be both ranged and melee specialized is a good idea and only the hunter fighter gets this so it’s already sort of close to being a rangers thing."; You prefer a second fighting style over being able to attack your favored enemy a second time? Also I put apex predator at 10th level so it wouldn't com on too late.
Thank you for the feedback and i look forward to anything else you may have to offer.
1) no not suggestions they get heavy armor proficiency, suggesting they get studded leather instead of leather. Also pointing out that studded leather is actually a DnD creation - the thing we call studded leather is based on drawings that actually showed a heavier ( medium not heavy) armor of small plates or chain panels riveted between cloth or soft leather - brigantine armor that was worn around camp when you might get attacked but weren’t preparing for a formal battle. For the game I’m content to actually have studded leather be a thing on its own and it’s ideal for rangers.
2) we are good here
3) As I said giving them survival flat ut conflicts with a bunch of backgrounds so just letting them take something else instead doesn’t sit right. In addition you need to work something in replacing natural explorer - this is your chance. Change out survival for nature skill, give them the double proficiency and add in the natural explorer abilities. If you want to limit it somewhat give them 3 terrain types to start (their choice) then add another at 6, 10, 14 level.
4) we are good here
5) I’ll come back to this in a separate post - there is a lot in quarry and I’m still digesting it.
6) notice that all of the examples have multiple uses while this is a single use so the 30 THP at L20 is probably ok but, the samurai gets a small boost 3/LR while the large boosts from the Druid and cleric come from using a highly limited resource. You are probably better off going with something similar to the samurai for this. Maybe 2x WB PB times/LR?
7) I can’t think of any creature or class that provides blindsight/tremorsense out past 30’ with the possible exception of dragons. I can see getting it out to 15’ at this level and if you already have it this extending it out to your normal move rate distance but that would be it.
8) bluntly, yes a second fighting style is more useful to my mind. As a ranger you already get a second attack at L5 and some sort of third attack at L11 from your subclass. This means that using. Two weapon fighting you would have 4 attacks and only a straight fighter using TWF would have more (5). When I think of the classic rangers (Aragorn, Robinhood) they are as adept with a bow as with a sword. They don’t have extra attacks but rather supreme skill at range and in melee.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Thanks for the detailed replies they are helping a lot. As for what you pointed out;
"3) As I said giving them survival flat out conflicts with a bunch of backgrounds so just letting them take something else instead doesn’t sit right. In addition you need to work something in replacing natural explorer - this is your chance. Change out survival for nature skill, give them the double proficiency and add in the natural explorer abilities. If you want to limit it somewhat give them 3 terrain types to start (their choice) then add another at 6, 10, 14 level."; Yes, proficiency and expertise in the nature skill is more fitting for gleaming information about terrain but the survival skill has claim to it as it lets you pull of what Aragorn was able to when tracking the halflings. Giving proficiency and expertise in either skill would be stepping on the toes of a background. Original nature explorer gave the ranger a lot of stuff without needing to roll and is why I broke it down by removing what could be covered by a die roll like "While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area; When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would. Difficult terrain doesn't slow your group's travel was changed to just not slowing the ranger. Your group can't become lost except by magical means; I may put this back. The vanish feature has If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace rolled into it. Just adding more levels in which the ranger gains an additional terrain selection seems lazy and mixing it with what I have done seems like too much. Maybe giving the option to gain proficiency and expertise in nature or survival and the expertise in one other that way you can build what best fits the concept people are going for.
"5) I’ll come back to this in a separate post - there is a lot in quarry and I’m still digesting it. 8) bluntly, yes a second fighting style is more useful to my mind. As a ranger you already get a second attack at L5 and some sort of third attack at L11 from your subclass. This means that using. Two weapon fighting you would have 4 attacks and only a straight fighter using TWF would have more (5). When I think of the classic rangers (Aragorn, Robinhood) they are as adept with a bow as with a sword. They don’t have extra attacks but rather supreme skill at range and in melee."; The quarry feature replaces the rangers access to hunters mark spell. Meaning the Hunter's Mark Spell can no longer be selected or prepared by the ranger. It still has hunters mark mechanics but it scale from a 1d4 to 1d8 and has additional benefits if you happen to mark a favorite enemy. For 6th I just rolled part of the old foe slayer in because it was lack luster for a 20th level ability.Though the third attack at 14 is a bit much I'll have to think of something else. Maybe make a suite of ranger only fighting styles?
"7) I can’t think of any creature or class that provides blindsight/ tremorsense out past 30’ with the possible exception of dragons. I can see getting it out to 15’ at this level and if you already have it this extending it out to your normal move rate distance but that would be it."; There are actually quite a few and even throughout the CR 0 range and that is just blindsight. The range I have it set at actually gives it the feel of a high level ability but dropping the extra 10 feet does seem fine. The original feral senses was also a 30 foot radius it was just worded in a complicated way. Maybe add in that while concentrating the Ranger is blind beyond this radius.
"6) notice that all of the examples have multiple uses while this is a single use so the 30 THP at L20 is probably ok but, the samurai gets a small boost 3/LR while the large boosts from the Druid and cleric come from using a highly limited resource. You are probably better off going with something similar to the samurai for this. Maybe 2x WB PB times/LR?"; For this maybe lower how much is gained over a short rest maybe 1d10+wisdom mod and leave the level + 2x wisdom mod as is since it reflects the stronger benefits from a long rest.
Thank you for the feedback and i look forward to anything else you may have to offer.
Sorry for taking so long to reply but real life gets in the way sometimes.
3) No background in the books I have grants nature as a skill, even the Druid class doesn’t grant it - only has it as a selectable choice. Survival is granted by 5 backgrounds which is why I recommended changing from survival to nature. Being able to roll some of natural explorer into that is a bonus. Generally if something is granted elsewhere it’s a clue not to include it where it isn’t granted.
I would put that stuff back in and let it be a roll - at 2x PB your going to make the rolls most of the time and the misses actually do happen even to the best trackers etc. Given that they now have any nature roll at 2x PB you don’t really need natural explorer and terrains as that gave the x2 only to specific terrains.
Always remember KIS/S when designing 😁
5) As a replacement for hunters mark/favored foe it works well. I notice that it is no longer concentration based - is that intentional or not? I also was looking it over again and saw that you don’t actually have anything for favored Nemo at L14 - as I said I would recommend putting Apex Predator in there and giving the ranger a second fighting style like the Champion ( not hunter as I misspoke the first time) as the L10 ability. I think that would serve the class far better.
7) the original feral senses was basically preternatural hearing as it could be stopped with deafness. I think you might want to keep the title but extend it to scent in the text so they could locate even hidden/invisible foes out to 30’ even when blinded and deafened. Blindsight does the same thing . The range is really to keep the action in melee range and not missile range. Keeping the range to @30’ maintains this as mostly - it allows for thrown or short range missiles while preventing the use of long range missiles with this ability which makes since to me. I can see ( as I’ve posted before) allowing it to extend out to the ranger’s normal move rate distance (45’ for a level 6+ wood elf ranger) but that would be the max I can see.
6) Again KIS/S (keep it short/simple) trying to do something on both a short and long rest is probably a mistake. A large amount once/LR is not wholly unreasonable but but smaller amounts more frequently is probably more useful. Keep in mind that the Druid and Cleric are giving up their highly limited (2/SR) class abilities to get the large boost while the ranger is giving up nothing so smaller amounts more often like the samurai are a better way to go. Using the level for this is probably too much especially at high levels. Using wisdom bonus is probably better than using constitution as it’s less likely to be maxed but either one or a combination of the two ( CB+WB?) seems reasonable.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Sorry for taking so long to reply life is a bit hectic at the moment. As for what you pointed out;
"3) No background in the books I have grants nature as a skill, even the Druid class doesn’t grant it - only has it as a selectable choice. Survival is granted by 5 backgrounds which is why I recommended changing from survival to nature. Being able to roll some of natural explorer into that is a bonus. Generally if something is granted elsewhere it’s a clue not to include it where it isn’t granted.
I would put that stuff back in and let it be a roll - at 2x PB your going to make the rolls most of the time and the misses actually do happen even to the best trackers etc. Given that they now have any nature roll at 2x PB you don’t really need natural explorer and terrains as that gave the x2 only to specific terrains.
Always remember KIS/S when designing 😁; "There are 7 backgrounds that give proficiency in nature skill and 14 that gives proficiency in survival from what I found on here (D&D Beyond). The Druid class not being given the skill nature from the start that is beyond me. As for keeping all the benefits of nature explorer at 1st level on top of everything else gained at 6th and 10th level would be too much. Giving the ranger the option to get nature or survival would offers players the chance to customize and pick backgrounds outside of the norm for what is usually paired with the ranger class.
"5) As a replacement for hunters mark/favored foe it works well. I notice that it is no longer concentration based - is that intentional or not? I also was looking it over again and saw that you don’t actually have anything for favored Nemo at L14 - as I said I would recommend putting Apex Predator in there and giving the ranger a second fighting style like the Champion ( not hunter as I misspoke the first time) as the L10 ability. I think that would serve the class far better."; It no longer requiring concentration is intentional as I added a caveat saying, To balance this take of the Ranger the Quarry class feature replaces the rangers access to hunters mark spell. Meaning the Hunter's Mark Spell can no longer be selected or prepared by the ranger. Yes, this means someone could take the magic initiate feat to pick up hex or multiclass to get it and but that takes time and an investment to set up. Making it not require concentration also frees up all the other spells that also require concentration. Moving apex to 14th lvl would no longer provide a bonus for marking a favorite enemy and adding another fighting style choice at 10th lvl feels lackluster. Also I'm trying to work something along the lines of an extra fight style into my hunter subclass rework.
"6) Again KIS/S (keep it short/simple) trying to do something on both a short and long rest is probably a mistake. A large amount once/LR is not wholly unreasonable but but smaller amounts more frequently is probably more useful. Keep in mind that the Druid and Cleric are giving up their highly limited (2/SR) class abilities to get the large boost while the ranger is giving up nothing so smaller amounts more often like the samurai are a better way to go. Using the level for this is probably too much especially at high levels. Using wisdom bonus is probably better than using constitution as it’s less likely to be maxed but either one or a combination of the two ( CB+WB?) seems reasonable."; After looking at it I'm gonna keep it as is because it seems all the martial classes have some form of survivability option barbarian has rage, fighter has second wind, monk has quickened healing (though costly), and paladin has its potentially huge lay on hands pool.
"7) the original feral senses was basically preternatural hearing as it could be stopped with deafness. I think you might want to keep the title but extend it to scent in the text so they could locate even hidden/invisible foes out to 30’ even when blinded and deafened. Blindsight does the same thing . The range is really to keep the action in melee range and not missile range. Keeping the range to @30’ maintains this as mostly - it allows for thrown or short range missiles while preventing the use of long range missiles with this ability which makes since to me. I can see ( as I’ve posted before) allowing it to extend out to the ranger’s normal move rate distance (45’ for a level 6+ wood elf ranger) but that would be the max I can see."; Yes feral senses was just blindsight but worded differently. The set ranges of 30 feet to 60 feet (if concentrating) or 40 feet (with the blind fighting style) to 80 feet (if concentrating) is good. if the range is tied to movement speed it can get even more out of hand for example. wood elf base speed 35, 6th lvl get extra 10 feet, takes the mobile feat +10 feet, takes last 2 lvls in monk +10 feet, pick the horizon walker subclass for haste movement speed x2; your blind sight radius would then equal (35+10+10+10)x2= 130 foot blindsight radius. Only a few creatures have blindsight out to 120 feet.
Made a few small changes to the quarry feature let me know what you think. Thanks for the feed back and keep it coming its helping a ton.
It is fine I think. I do not think it outperforms Tasha's Ranger though. Tasha's changes combined with their subclasses makes Rangers probably the most powerful martial class, this is more middle of the pack I think.
This is about equal to Tasha's until level 8, but Tasha's Ranger is going to outrun it after that IMO.
Not really. You can get Hex with Fey Touched Feat while also boosting Wisdom. That is not much of an investment. Start with an odd wisdom or a human/custom and it is no investment at all.
I rarely even have Hunter Mark on Rangers I play, but I get Hex pretty often.
TBH the bigger investment I think wasting a spell known on HM when there are so many better spells available.
Thanks for adding to the conversation.
Could you go into detail on how it is about equal to Tasha's until level 8, but Tasha's Ranger is going to outrun it? I’m building my take of the Ranger with the intentions of working with the already existing subclasses?
Thank you for the feedback and i look forward to anything else you may have to offer.
This Ranger has a slight improvement with Quarry replacing Favored Foe but it loses Canny and Primal awareness, I would say those are awash up to level 8. But as more spells come online from Primal Awarteness at later levels (starting with 3rd level spells at 9th level) I think Tasha's Ranger becomes progressively more effective.
At higher levels, in addition to piling up spells with Primal Awareness, Tasha's Rangers get Natures Veil and Tireless. Tireless is ok but Nature's Veil is one of the best of any class abilities in the game and nothing here equals it. Hiding as a bonus action does not compete with becoming invisible as a bonus action, especially considering the advantage on the attack, including melee attacks you get from the invisibility.
"it loses Canny and Primal awareness"; The 1st level of hunting prowess gives the following; At 1st level, you gain proficiency in the nature or survival skill and your proficiency bonus is doubled for the chosen skill and one other skill of your choice. So it matches canny and one up it as well by giving you an additional skill. As for primal awareness its good that you get spells that do not cost a slot on the first casting or against you spells known but overall you only get 5 extra spells while still having the shortest spells known list versus every other caster (full/half/tri). By switching this take of the ranger from spells known to prepared casting provides more freedom to choose what you want instead of being forced into having some spells that might get used. Also switching to prepared spells effectively doubles the amount of spells the ranger will get at later levels since they can prepare an amount of spells equal to half level plus wis mod.
"Tasha's Rangers get Natures Veil and Tireless"; For tireless I increased the amount of temp HP the ranger gets and how often it is applied making it more reliable and it no longer takes any action. For the second half of tireless I did away with lowering exhaustion level on a short rest in exchange for improved healing when using hit dice. Natures Veil is good but its a limited resource with a long rest reset. Something more consistent would better fit the ranger since there are definitely times where a ranger will burn through all their resources with no short or long rest in sight.
Thank you for the feedback and I'm looking forward to anything else you have to offer.
I have to ask - what backgrounds (&books that they are in) give nature as an automatic skill? As I said I couldn’t find any but you are claiming 7 do.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
After looking into them more the ones in scag offer it as a choice.
Ok that explains that - I don’t have ravnica and have SCAG and Strixhaven in paper not here. Stil most of those are not what I really think of as ranger backgrounds. I can see the strixhaven ones possibly and maybe faction agent (harpers/lordsAlliance/moonstars/etc) I still think it would be better to give the ranger nature than survival and let survival come from a background rather than nature ( or come from a skill selection as a ranger). Personally, when actually building a character I go: race, abilities, background, class and then equipment I will take a look at the backgrounds in SCAG and Strixhavenand maybe add more comment here again.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I would like to point out custom backgrounds are RAW and are not even in the "optional rules."
I have only used the standard backgrounds for about 3 of my characters since 5e was published.
Yes custom backgrounds are RAW, but with a custom background you are are working around the published backgrounds and toward a specific character concept. Zac is ( I believe) trying to put together a revised version of the ranger that will work with the published backgrounds. Which is why I was interested in those that gave nature as a skill since we were discussing his inclusion of the survival skill into the core class.
After reading the (published) backgrounds in Strixhaven and SCAG, the SCAG backgrounds listed above have nature as an option but not a given as such the ranger could be being given nature instead of survival just as easily with no serious harm to the use of the background.
The Strixhaven backgrounds do give nature as a skill but only one makes a lot of sense as a ranger background ( WitherBloom). I can see some ways that Quandrix could be a background ( especially for a horizon walker) but I see witherbloom as much more suited to most ranger builds if using the Strixhaven backgrounds. So it’s really 2 published backgrounds granting nature vs 14 (I believe you said earlier) granting survival ( is that including the Uthgardt Tribesman background or is that one #15?). So again I suggest that to avoid negative interactions with as many (published) backgrounds as possible it be the nature skill that is folded into the revised ranger not the survival skill.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.