I'll have to speak with the DM then. Because I would be ahead of my party, so they would not be there to roll for initiative...
Also, I wouldn't class casting HM as an attack, therefore no battle was started. I could cast it and never hit them, nor them ever see or hear me - so they couldnt start a battle with me either.
I appreciate the reply's though. I see your point
So, is your intention cast it, then sneak back to the party?
First note, you have to be able to see the target, so you can maybe be behind some cover, but in general, if you can see them, they can see you. If they actually do see you or not is a different issue. And it does have a verbal component. The rules are unclear on just how loud the verbal component needs to be, but you will need to make at least some kind of small sound, which could be noticed. Presumably you are 90 feet away, and it won't be easy to notice, but the dice will do what the dice will do.
So, when you cast it, everyone rolls. If you want to then spend your action and your move sneaking away back to the party, you can do that, you just need to make a stealth roll. Then with the initiative order set, the DM compares your stealth roll to the passive perception of the enemy creatures. Then, the chips fall where they fall. Maybe you make it back fine, and now the whole party is together so you can all discuss how to approach the enemies while you have one marked. Maybe you flub the stealth roll and get noticed by the enemies while you are still some distance from the party. The order is set, so everyone can know how long it will take other party members (and the enemies) to get to you, while you are either fighting or running from the enemies. In any case, casting the spell starts the combat, even if the enemies don't know it's started yet.
I'm a Gloom Stalker Ranger (eventually taking 3 lvls of Rogue) with darkvision. They will do very well to see me - though the verbal component does raise a good point, though verbal is verbal... it doesn't say it has to be loud.
So with the above, I wont have to roll for stealth, surely?
And no, my intent is not necessarily to sneak back. Though it's not to attack. I'd be undecided at that point.
I'm a Gloom Stalker Ranger (eventually taking 3 lvls of Rogue) with darkvision. They will do very well to see me - though the verbal component does raise a good point, though verbal is verbal... it doesn't say it has to be loud.
So with the above, I wont have to roll for stealth, surely?
And no, my intent is not necessarily to sneak back. Though it's not to attack. I'd be undecided at that point.
Stealth isn’t just being seen. Heard, smelled, etc. may come into play. Lots of other creatures have darkvision, so that may not matter. I know I’d require a stealth roll, depending on circumstances, I might give advantage. But certainly a roll.
I'll have to speak with the DM then. Because I would be ahead of my party, so they would not be there to roll for initiative...
Also, I wouldn't class casting HM as an attack, therefore no battle was started. I could cast it and never hit them, nor them ever see or hear me - so they couldnt start a battle with me either.
I appreciate the reply's though. I see your point
So, is your intention cast it, then sneak back to the party?
First note, you have to be able to see the target, so you can maybe be behind some cover, but in general, if you can see them, they can see you. If they actually do see you or not is a different issue. And it does have a verbal component. The rules are unclear on just how loud the verbal component needs to be, but you will need to make at least some kind of small sound, which could be noticed. Presumably you are 90 feet away, and it won't be easy to notice, but the dice will do what the dice will do.
So, when you cast it, everyone rolls. If you want to then spend your action and your move sneaking away back to the party, you can do that, you just need to make a stealth roll. Then with the initiative order set, the DM compares your stealth roll to the passive perception of the enemy creatures. Then, the chips fall where they fall. Maybe you make it back fine, and now the whole party is together so you can all discuss how to approach the enemies while you have one marked. Maybe you flub the stealth roll and get noticed by the enemies while you are still some distance from the party. The order is set, so everyone can know how long it will take other party members (and the enemies) to get to you, while you are either fighting or running from the enemies. In any case, casting the spell starts the combat, even if the enemies don't know it's started yet.
There has been other threads about if casting Hunters Mark always starts combat according to RAW. Its debatable
Some people believe casting a spell with combat potential atomically activates initiatives. I disagree because there's non combat potential with hunter's mark. It's rare but sometimes you will use it for tracking advantage for someone you expect to follow.(even an ally.) H.M. out of combat is one reason I don't think favored enemy needs all enemy types in the end.
The other thing worth mentioning is if you cast a spell you are no longer hidden. So if you are hidden and target someone with Hunters Mark you would not be hidden after you cast it.
The other thing worth mentioning is if you cast a spell you are no longer hidden. So if you are hidden and target someone with Hunters Mark you would not be hidden after you cast it.
If you use normal hearing distance (2d6×10) a ranger at 90ft could be unheard most of the time. (Roughly 63% chance) And is guaranteed at quiet levels (2d6×5) (60 ft max.)
This only requires dm use of hearing rules. Wich isn't absolute but is a indicator that is should be possible.
The other thing worth mentioning is if you cast a spell you are no longer hidden. So if you are hidden and target someone with Hunters Mark you would not be hidden after you cast it.
How so?
What page of the PHB is this on?
You stop being hidden if you make noise, which includes casting a spell with a verbal component.
The other thing worth mentioning is if you cast a spell you are no longer hidden. So if you are hidden and target someone with Hunters Mark you would not be hidden after you cast it.
How so?
What page of the PHB is this on?
You stop being hidden if you make noise, which includes casting a spell with a verbal component.
Actually... If I am a Gloomstalker and I am in the dark, regardless of whether my verbal casting is heard, they are still not going to see me and thus I remain hidden, with advantage. Particularly if I move before attacking.
If I was in the light & just using cover, then I would have to be looking at the enemy and if they heard me, then they would see me. Though, I'd still argue that at 90ft, they are not going to hear a whisper.
The DM could ask for a stealth check perhaps, to see if they hear me at such distances I suppose. Outright saying my cover is blown is just unreasonable.
Appreciable:
adjective
Possible to estimate, measure, or perceive: synonym: perceptible.
Capable of being appreciated or estimated; large enough to be estimated; perceptible.
Actually... If I am a Gloomstalker and I am in the dark, regardless of whether my verbal casting is heard, they are still not going to see me and thus I remain hidden, with advantage. Particularly if I move before attacking.
If I was in the light & just using cover, then I would have to be looking at the enemy and if they heard me, then they would see me. Though, I'd still argue that at 90ft, they are not going to hear a whisper.
The DM could ask for a stealth check perhaps, to see if they hear me at such distances I suppose. Outright saying my cover is blown is just unreasonable.
Appreciable:
adjective
Possible to estimate, measure, or perceive: synonym: perceptible.
Capable of being appreciated or estimated; large enough to be estimated; perceptible.
Being in the dark does not make you hidden. Hiding makes you hidden. Lots of creatures have darkvision or something similar. You might make noise (apart from casting, just, sometimes, creatures make noise). Some creatures may be able to smell you, or have tremorsense, or dozens of other things. Just because a creature has a hard time seeing you does not mean you are hidden, or that they can't perceive you some other way.
Your darkvision is only 60 feet (unless you have a race that gives you darkvision) so you may have to be closer than 90 feet, since if you can't see the creature, you can't target them.
Why are you ignoring the parenthetical "(including the verbal component of a spell)" as something that makes you no longer be hidden, which is clearly what's at issue here?
Being in the dark would surely make someone hidden to anyone that cannot see in the dark though? Granted, I wouldn't have cover for any attack that came directly for me, but visually speaking, I would be hidden by the darkness?
Plus I am a Half-elf Gloomstalker, so due to Umbral Sight, anyone that would rely on darkvision to see me cannot see me either. As I already have darkvision, my range of darkvision increases to 90ft.
I didn't ignore the parenthesis, it's not separate to the appreciable noise. It's one & the same.
My understanding from that line is... if you make APPRECIABLE noise (definition above) then you are no longer hidden. Then he goes on to say that this goes for spell casting too. So casting a spell with an appreciable noise/sound/volume level will mean you are not hidden.
Whispering a spell cast at 5ft to me would be appreciable noise. But at 60-90ft, nah. Unless the creature has extraordinary hearing.
Being in the dark would surely make someone hidden to anyone that cannot see in the dark though? Granted, I wouldn't have cover for any attack that came directly for me, but visually speaking, I would be hidden by the darkness?
You would be "unseen", which in the rules is different than "hidden". Hidden means "unseen" and "unheard". Unseen gives benefits of its own though, attacks by you have advantage and attacks against you are at disadvnatage.
Whispering a spell cast at 5ft to me would be appreciable noise. But at 60-90ft, nah.
The rules state verbal components require "chanting" with "specific pitch and resonance". So no you really can't whisper out the verbal components because you do not have a full range of pitch when you whisper and you are purposely limiting the amplitude (ie resonance) so as to maintain a whisper. Being able to cast without being noticed is really what the whole subtle spell metamagic is for.
That said it is easy to hear a whisper in darkness at 70 feet with no ambient noise.
I believe a whisper is 30dB at 1m. That equates to about 17dB at 67ft. Someone with what is considered "normal" hearing can hear 0dB in the center of the verbal range in an entirely quiet and dark room. FWIW when I was first tested for hearing by the Navy my threshold was -20dB. After 20 years of flying jets it was +20dB a shift of 40 dB.
It is much more difficult to hear it in daylight or with background noise.
I'm still not convinced... "if you make appreciable noise(including the verbal component of a spell)"
What counts as appreciable?
A verbal whisper at 60-90ft is not going to be heard but anything other than extraordinary hearing
For the purposes of this discussion, the verbal components of a spell count as "appreciable" because it says it does in the very text you quoted.
As far as what "appreciable" means in a broader context - you are normally making a stealth check to see if you make appreciable noise while trying to be quiet. Your check is to determine if you are too loud. The things you are normall doing are things like breathing (10dB), light footsteps (20dB), your leather creaking (??), drawing an arrow out of your quiver (??) etc. If those things can be loud enough to give you away if you fail the check then certainly anything you whisper would automatically give you away.
I agree after reading the PHB again that MOST spell casting requires the various pitch and resonance. Therefore I now agree that you cannot just whisper a spell and expect to get away with it. Perhaps as 90ft the DM might ask for a check, but yeah, it's not quite as easy I initially thought.
I also acknowledge the unseen status. My bad. I now understand the difference you laid out. Thank you for explaining.
On re-reading the text I quoted, I now see the meaning differently.
I would like to point out the rules do not say "appreciable noise" only jc's tweet so I treat it as RAI.
The rules do say attacks (spells or weapons) reveal positions of characters.
This is why I belive the dm screen rule makes the most sense. It ties all the pieces together (at least mechanics and narrative, If not physics.) It gives a nice starting point that fits within the confines of jc's tweet and the rules books.
This also allows all game features to have proper weight. Subtle spell, hiding, surprise, perception
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So, is your intention cast it, then sneak back to the party?
First note, you have to be able to see the target, so you can maybe be behind some cover, but in general, if you can see them, they can see you. If they actually do see you or not is a different issue. And it does have a verbal component. The rules are unclear on just how loud the verbal component needs to be, but you will need to make at least some kind of small sound, which could be noticed. Presumably you are 90 feet away, and it won't be easy to notice, but the dice will do what the dice will do.
So, when you cast it, everyone rolls. If you want to then spend your action and your move sneaking away back to the party, you can do that, you just need to make a stealth roll. Then with the initiative order set, the DM compares your stealth roll to the passive perception of the enemy creatures. Then, the chips fall where they fall. Maybe you make it back fine, and now the whole party is together so you can all discuss how to approach the enemies while you have one marked. Maybe you flub the stealth roll and get noticed by the enemies while you are still some distance from the party. The order is set, so everyone can know how long it will take other party members (and the enemies) to get to you, while you are either fighting or running from the enemies. In any case, casting the spell starts the combat, even if the enemies don't know it's started yet.
I'm a Gloom Stalker Ranger (eventually taking 3 lvls of Rogue) with darkvision. They will do very well to see me - though the verbal component does raise a good point, though verbal is verbal... it doesn't say it has to be loud.
So with the above, I wont have to roll for stealth, surely?
And no, my intent is not necessarily to sneak back. Though it's not to attack. I'd be undecided at that point.
Stealth isn’t just being seen. Heard, smelled, etc. may come into play. Lots of other creatures have darkvision, so that may not matter. I know I’d require a stealth roll, depending on circumstances, I might give advantage. But certainly a roll.
Hmm...
Fair point. I didnt consider smell at all!
Cheers for the input buddy!
There has been other threads about if casting Hunters Mark always starts combat according to RAW. Its debatable
Some people believe casting a spell with combat potential atomically activates initiatives. I disagree because there's non combat potential with hunter's mark. It's rare but sometimes you will use it for tracking advantage for someone you expect to follow.(even an ally.) H.M. out of combat is one reason I don't think favored enemy needs all enemy types in the end.
The other thing worth mentioning is if you cast a spell you are no longer hidden. So if you are hidden and target someone with Hunters Mark you would not be hidden after you cast it.
How so?
What page of the PHB is this on?
FYI, the DM is allowing the use of Hunters Mark outside of battle.
There were no issues at all
If you use normal hearing distance (2d6×10) a ranger at 90ft could be unheard most of the time. (Roughly 63% chance) And is guaranteed at quiet levels (2d6×5) (60 ft max.)
This only requires dm use of hearing rules. Wich isn't absolute but is a indicator that is should be possible.
You stop being hidden if you make noise, which includes casting a spell with a verbal component.
https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/951893598043226112?lang=en
I'm still not convinced...
"if you make appreciable noise (including the verbal component of a spell)"
What counts as appreciable?
A verbal whisper at 60-90ft is not going to be heard but anything other than extraordinary hearing
Actually...
If I am a Gloomstalker and I am in the dark, regardless of whether my verbal casting is heard, they are still not going to see me and thus I remain hidden, with advantage. Particularly if I move before attacking.
If I was in the light & just using cover, then I would have to be looking at the enemy and if they heard me, then they would see me.
Though, I'd still argue that at 90ft, they are not going to hear a whisper.
The DM could ask for a stealth check perhaps, to see if they hear me at such distances I suppose.
Outright saying my cover is blown is just unreasonable.
Appreciable:
adjective
I whisper at 90ft does fit the bill
Being in the dark does not make you hidden. Hiding makes you hidden. Lots of creatures have darkvision or something similar. You might make noise (apart from casting, just, sometimes, creatures make noise). Some creatures may be able to smell you, or have tremorsense, or dozens of other things. Just because a creature has a hard time seeing you does not mean you are hidden, or that they can't perceive you some other way.
Your darkvision is only 60 feet (unless you have a race that gives you darkvision) so you may have to be closer than 90 feet, since if you can't see the creature, you can't target them.
Why are you ignoring the parenthetical "(including the verbal component of a spell)" as something that makes you no longer be hidden, which is clearly what's at issue here?
Hi.
Being in the dark would surely make someone hidden to anyone that cannot see in the dark though? Granted, I wouldn't have cover for any attack that came directly for me, but visually speaking, I would be hidden by the darkness?
Plus I am a Half-elf Gloomstalker, so due to Umbral Sight, anyone that would rely on darkvision to see me cannot see me either. As I already have darkvision, my range of darkvision increases to 90ft.
I didn't ignore the parenthesis, it's not separate to the appreciable noise. It's one & the same.
My understanding from that line is... if you make APPRECIABLE noise (definition above) then you are no longer hidden. Then he goes on to say that this goes for spell casting too. So casting a spell with an appreciable noise/sound/volume level will mean you are not hidden.
Whispering a spell cast at 5ft to me would be appreciable noise. But at 60-90ft, nah.
Unless the creature has extraordinary hearing.
You would be "unseen", which in the rules is different than "hidden". Hidden means "unseen" and "unheard". Unseen gives benefits of its own though, attacks by you have advantage and attacks against you are at disadvnatage.
The rules state verbal components require "chanting" with "specific pitch and resonance". So no you really can't whisper out the verbal components because you do not have a full range of pitch when you whisper and you are purposely limiting the amplitude (ie resonance) so as to maintain a whisper. Being able to cast without being noticed is really what the whole subtle spell metamagic is for.
That said it is easy to hear a whisper in darkness at 70 feet with no ambient noise.
I believe a whisper is 30dB at 1m. That equates to about 17dB at 67ft. Someone with what is considered "normal" hearing can hear 0dB in the center of the verbal range in an entirely quiet and dark room. FWIW when I was first tested for hearing by the Navy my threshold was -20dB. After 20 years of flying jets it was +20dB a shift of 40 dB.
It is much more difficult to hear it in daylight or with background noise.
For the purposes of this discussion, the verbal components of a spell count as "appreciable" because it says it does in the very text you quoted.
As far as what "appreciable" means in a broader context - you are normally making a stealth check to see if you make appreciable noise while trying to be quiet. Your check is to determine if you are too loud. The things you are normall doing are things like breathing (10dB), light footsteps (20dB), your leather creaking (??), drawing an arrow out of your quiver (??) etc. If those things can be loud enough to give you away if you fail the check then certainly anything you whisper would automatically give you away.
I agree after reading the PHB again that MOST spell casting requires the various pitch and resonance. Therefore I now agree that you cannot just whisper a spell and expect to get away with it. Perhaps as 90ft the DM might ask for a check, but yeah, it's not quite as easy I initially thought.
I also acknowledge the unseen status. My bad. I now understand the difference you laid out. Thank you for explaining.
On re-reading the text I quoted, I now see the meaning differently.
What are you talking about? They literally said "I see an enemy". Why wouldn't they be able to cast HM on it?
I would like to point out the rules do not say "appreciable noise" only jc's tweet so I treat it as RAI.
The rules do say attacks (spells or weapons) reveal positions of characters.
This is why I belive the dm screen rule makes the most sense. It ties all the pieces together (at least mechanics and narrative, If not physics.) It gives a nice starting point that fits within the confines of jc's tweet and the rules books.
This also allows all game features to have proper weight. Subtle spell, hiding, surprise, perception