What about if you cover your mouth with cupped hands, or speak into the voluminous depths of your bag of holding?
If given a quest to babysit a rebellious child or accompany the important person then being able to cast Hunter's Mark on them for the tracking benefits would be useful and shouldn't begin combat with them.
What about if you cover your mouth with cupped hands, or speak into the voluminous depths of your bag of holding?
If given a quest to babysit a rebellious child or accompany the important person then being able to cast Hunter's Mark on them for the tracking benefits would be useful and shouldn't begin combat with them.
So, you want to cast a spell with a verbal component, and just say it so quietly that it effectively has no verbal component? I’d rule the spell fails because it’s missing a component.
To put another way. A sorcerer can use subtle spell to ignore the verbal component of a spell. To be able to do that, they need to use two different limited resources — metamagic known and sorcery points. You are effectively proposing getting that limited resource class feature for free.
It's wild to me that anyone would bar this spell outside of combat. Yes, it's going to be noticable and yes, that might start combat, but it could also start a chase sequence or a parlay or any number of other interactions that aren't full-on combat.
E.G. I am sneaking ahead of the rest of the party... I see an enemy which I am still hidden... can I cast HM?
Absolutely. You wouldn’t be hidden anymore since you would reveal your presence by casting the spell, but you could absolutely cast it.
Agree as well. Since you are not in initiative, the outcome here is going to be driven by house rules. In some games you can "start combat" and get a free action in before initatve rolls. In other games as soon as you are going to do something like this initiative is rolled.
If your game is the first, you can almost certainly cast HM before initiative, whether you can also attack in that "free action" depends on if your DM gives you an entire turn before initiative or not.
E.G. I am sneaking ahead of the rest of the party... I see an enemy which I am still hidden... can I cast HM?
Absolutely. You wouldn’t be hidden anymore since you would reveal your presence by casting the spell, but you could absolutely cast it.
Agree as well. Since you are not in initiative, the outcome here is going to be driven by house rules. In some games you can "start combat" and get a free action in before initatve rolls. In other games as soon as you are going to do something like this initiative is rolled.
If your game is the first, you can almost certainly cast HM before initiative, whether you can also attack in that "free action" depends on if your DM gives you an entire turn before initiative or not.
It really doesn’t require hoserules. The spell goes off and the nearby creature(s) notice your presence. Anything other than that is up to the DM to adjudicate on a case by case basis. If it is going to spark a fight then Initiative is rolled and you get to Surprise your target. But it might not result in combat so no need for an initiative roll on those occasions. After all, the other creature(s) know you’re there, but they don’t necessarily know what you’ve done. And even if they do realize what you’ve done, that doesn’t mean they’re necessarily gonna wanna rumble. Maybe they run away, maybe they parley, maybe the pretend not to notice, maybe they do something completely different. It should really be determined on a case-by-case basis depending on what those nearby creature(s) are, what their motivations are, and what their disposition(s) might be. A houserule implies that’s what happens every time in that situation, but that doesn’t really work because one outcome doesn’t necessarily fit all situations.
E.G. I am sneaking ahead of the rest of the party... I see an enemy which I am still hidden... can I cast HM?
Absolutely. You wouldn’t be hidden anymore since you would reveal your presence by casting the spell, but you could absolutely cast it.
Agree as well. Since you are not in initiative, the outcome here is going to be driven by house rules. In some games you can "start combat" and get a free action in before initatve rolls. In other games as soon as you are going to do something like this initiative is rolled.
If your game is the first, you can almost certainly cast HM before initiative, whether you can also attack in that "free action" depends on if your DM gives you an entire turn before initiative or not.
It really doesn’t require hoserules. The spell goes off and the nearby creature(s) notice your presence. Anything other than that is up to the DM to adjudicate on a case by case basis. If it is going to spark a fight then Initiative is rolled and you get to Surprise your target. But it might not result in combat so no need for an initiative roll on those occasions. After all, the other creature(s) know you’re there, but they don’t necessarily know what you’ve done. And even if they do realize what you’ve done, that doesn’t mean they’re necessarily gonna wanna rumble. Maybe they run away, maybe they parley, maybe the pretend not to notice, maybe they do something completely different. It should really be determined on a case-by-case basis depending on what those nearby creature(s) are, what their motivations are, and what their disposition(s) might be. A houserule implies that’s what happens every time in that situation, but that doesn’t really work because one outcome doesn’t necessarily fit all situations.
It is up to the DM. But more than one DM I play with noticing someone casting an unexpected spell causes initiative. If you don't go into initiative there is chaos as to who does what next. Ok the NPCs notice, but do they do something next or does the party do something next or what? Some DMs play that out, but a lot don't.
Hunter's Mark in particular is an offensive spell that targets an individual.
It doesn’t have to be offensive, it’s not like fireball where it immediately does damage or anything. It’s just as much a tracking spell as an offensive one. The problem I see with immediately going into initiative is that it prompts players into combat, when it doesn’t really have to be. I think any DM who automatically initiates combat upon cast of hunter’s mark is viewing things fairly narrowly.
It doesn’t have to be offensive, it’s not like fireball where it immediately does damage or anything. It’s just as much a tracking spell as an offensive one. The problem I see with immediately going into initiative is that it prompts players into combat, when it doesn’t really have to be. I think any DM who automatically initiates combat upon cast of hunter’s mark is viewing things fairly narrowly.
Initiative doesn't have to be combat (despite what I said before). However I don't see Hunters Mark as being benign unless it is a situation like "You are the bait and I am going to cast Hunters Mark on you so I can track you after the bad guys kidnap you"
Other than that type of thing, I don't see where Hunter's Mark would not be offensive. It might not be damaging, but it is not Healing Word either.
It doesn’t have to be offensive, it’s not like fireball where it immediately does damage or anything. It’s just as much a tracking spell as an offensive one. The problem I see with immediately going into initiative is that it prompts players into combat, when it doesn’t really have to be. I think any DM who automatically initiates combat upon cast of hunter’s mark is viewing things fairly narrowly.
Initiative doesn't have to be combat (despite what I said before). However I don't see Hunters Mark as being benign unless it is a situation like "You are the bait and I am going to cast Hunters Mark on you so I can track you after the bad guys kidnap you"
Other than that type of thing, I don't see where Hunter's Mark would not be offensive. It might not be damaging, but it is not Healing Word either.
Then you just haven’t come up with enough situations in which tracking something is useful. Either that or you have a very broad definition of “offensive.” Simply tracking something shouldn’t necessarily be considered an automatically offensive action IMO. I mean, maybe you wanna follow a pickpocket to the Thieves’ Den so you can parley for a contract or something. Or maybe you wanna track a dragon so you can return its egg to it. Who knows? I can think of lots of nonhostile reasons to track something. My point is though, is that once initiative is called, most players automatically assume that means combat and act accordingly. I therefore try to only call for initiative when combat is actually about to happen. That’s all.
What about if you cover your mouth with cupped hands, or speak into the voluminous depths of your bag of holding?
If given a quest to babysit a rebellious child or accompany the important person then being able to cast Hunter's Mark on them for the tracking benefits would be useful and shouldn't begin combat with them.
So, you want to cast a spell with a verbal component, and just say it so quietly that it effectively has no verbal component? I’d rule the spell fails because it’s missing a component.
To put another way. A sorcerer can use subtle spell to ignore the verbal component of a spell. To be able to do that, they need to use two different limited resources — metamagic known and sorcery points. You are effectively proposing getting that limited resource class feature for free.
It's wild to me that anyone would bar this spell outside of combat. Yes, it's going to be noticable and yes, that might start combat, but it could also start a chase sequence or a parlay or any number of other interactions that aren't full-on combat.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Absolutely. You wouldn’t be hidden anymore since you would reveal your presence by casting the spell, but you could absolutely cast it.
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Agree as well. Since you are not in initiative, the outcome here is going to be driven by house rules. In some games you can "start combat" and get a free action in before initatve rolls. In other games as soon as you are going to do something like this initiative is rolled.
If your game is the first, you can almost certainly cast HM before initiative, whether you can also attack in that "free action" depends on if your DM gives you an entire turn before initiative or not.
It really doesn’t require hoserules. The spell goes off and the nearby creature(s) notice your presence. Anything other than that is up to the DM to adjudicate on a case by case basis. If it is going to spark a fight then Initiative is rolled and you get to Surprise your target. But it might not result in combat so no need for an initiative roll on those occasions. After all, the other creature(s) know you’re there, but they don’t necessarily know what you’ve done. And even if they do realize what you’ve done, that doesn’t mean they’re necessarily gonna wanna rumble. Maybe they run away, maybe they parley, maybe the pretend not to notice, maybe they do something completely different. It should really be determined on a case-by-case basis depending on what those nearby creature(s) are, what their motivations are, and what their disposition(s) might be. A houserule implies that’s what happens every time in that situation, but that doesn’t really work because one outcome doesn’t necessarily fit all situations.
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It is up to the DM. But more than one DM I play with noticing someone casting an unexpected spell causes initiative. If you don't go into initiative there is chaos as to who does what next. Ok the NPCs notice, but do they do something next or does the party do something next or what? Some DMs play that out, but a lot don't.
Hunter's Mark in particular is an offensive spell that targets an individual.
It doesn’t have to be offensive, it’s not like fireball where it immediately does damage or anything. It’s just as much a tracking spell as an offensive one. The problem I see with immediately going into initiative is that it prompts players into combat, when it doesn’t really have to be. I think any DM who automatically initiates combat upon cast of hunter’s mark is viewing things fairly narrowly.
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Initiative doesn't have to be combat (despite what I said before). However I don't see Hunters Mark as being benign unless it is a situation like "You are the bait and I am going to cast Hunters Mark on you so I can track you after the bad guys kidnap you"
Other than that type of thing, I don't see where Hunter's Mark would not be offensive. It might not be damaging, but it is not Healing Word either.
Then you just haven’t come up with enough situations in which tracking something is useful. Either that or you have a very broad definition of “offensive.” Simply tracking something shouldn’t necessarily be considered an automatically offensive action IMO. I mean, maybe you wanna follow a pickpocket to the Thieves’ Den so you can parley for a contract or something. Or maybe you wanna track a dragon so you can return its egg to it. Who knows? I can think of lots of nonhostile reasons to track something. My point is though, is that once initiative is called, most players automatically assume that means combat and act accordingly. I therefore try to only call for initiative when combat is actually about to happen. That’s all.
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