You know... I played a Beastmaster Ranger. It was when the game came out, and it was the Lost Mines when the game first hit. Wood elf, went with twin short swords and a panther ( I liked the idea of pouncing, then being there to smack the enemy). My DM did not allow me to use Hunter's Mark with the beast, but they did allow me to use my bonus action attack from duel wielding. At the time, I thought it was a reasonable build.
My experience is thusly - At level 3, when I got the panther, I immediately started feeling a bit weird about fighting. I was used to attacking twice, and now with a fresh body, it was strange that I felt like I was only attacking once. I chalked it up to "learning to fight together" from an in-character stand point, but I was seriously glad that my DM let me attack with my off hand weapon, and I wasn't using a bow. Forgetting how to shoot a bow so I could attack with the panther just felt wrong. As it was, it was just odd to be running around holding a glorified stick in my hand that I never used for two levels, and I couldn't help but compare myself to a Hunter who could get extra damage AND use Hunter's Mark. And I felt lacking in combat.
Now, out of combat, it was more helpful, because (rather than rolling for two) my just let me roll advantage when it came to traps and other perception tricks. (( On a related note, at this point I came to the conclusion that Favored Enemy was meaningless for me, since my pet made it slightly redundant, but if we rolled separately for panther and PC, it wouldn't, but since I was running with Expertise, Help was better than Perception for the panther. ))
Level 5, things evened out a bit - I could attack with both hands again, plus panther, so it was a less janky experience. Still, as I managed to snag a +1 sword, I was less a fan of having to juggle three different to-hit rolls with different bonuses and damages. A small annoyance. This was the part where we started noticing that, yes, damage matters on the panther. We managed to keep them alive, because Pounce was great when it worked, but we were noticing more and more critters resisting that DC 12 knock down got progressively easier for many monsters. Well, 13, because the DM let me use my proficency bonus when calculating the save, but still. And we couldn't use that pounce ability too often without risking OAs; low HP and middling AC discouraged that. And the panther did get hit with fair amount of frequency. Myself and the group bard did heal the panther, but it was a steadier drain on our resources than we liked. No replacement until the next break, which took a couple sessions.
Level 7 was meaningless to me. My bonus action was basically perma-taken, and I don't remember running into any enemies with magical weapon restrictions. The game lasted another level or two, I forget which, but at this point we started running into scheduling problems between players, so we kinda broke up soon after.
I didn't actually have the panther die on me. My ranger died and was Revived, but not the furball - I got the last spell slot. However, given how quickly the pace of the game was moving, I didn't give a lot of thought to the fact that, if we had both died then, I would have been effectively stripped of my subclass for a couple sessions until I got a chance for another pet. But I did feel that it would pretty much sucked and soured me on the subclass as a whole.
My overall experience was that going Beastmaster was not terribly fun. As we leveled, more and more, I felt that I was overshadowing the panther with just regular attacks, and I expected it to get worse as we got higher in level. We never got to 11, so that might have changed, but I felt like I was bleeding spell slots and doing less damage to keep the cat on the board. Couldn't get Pounce off often enough either. Between the jankiness of early play, and the annoyance of having to carry the furball later on, just wasn't as fun as it should have been.
Damn. That’s the most flushed out retelling of a real beast master ranger experience I’ve seen on these forums.
I’ll argue the merits of the class and subclass until the cows are conjured home, but even I have to admit that a large majority of players find them to fall very short of their expectations. Makes me sad.
Honestly, I don't think that 5e did a decent job with any of the pets. Chain warlock, the Conjure spells, the paladin mount, basic hirelings, animate dead... Its either underwhelming, or you're flooding the battlefield with low rank monsters that are breaking action economy over its knees, which brings about different problems (mostly, slows down play to the point people were walking away from the table).
Haven't tried out the Tasha stuff yet. Might be better? We'll see.
Yeah. For conjure animals I rarely use more than 4 creatures, if ever. And when I do it’s all flying creatures as not to clog up the battlefield. I use average damage instead of damage rolls. I bought pairs of solid color d20s (2 blue, 2 red, 2 green, etc.) so I can roll all the attacks at once in a tray before my turn. Then I mark the conjured minis as these colors. Electrical tape works well. That seems to speed things up pretty much in line with other character’s turns doing things like fireball, sneak attack, and action surge.
I also coordinated ahead of time with the other person involved, player and DM, whichever I was, and made sure we agreed on some things. The big one being for me as a player that I typically theme the conjured animals to my character so it’s the same type each time I cast the spell. For example, my last ranger was a lizardfolk beast master (PHB) that I played as a tribal crocodilefolk named Mâchoires. His beast was a medium crocodile named Amie (DM adjusted for size and CR). And when he got to level 9 all he conjured was 4 crocodile, that were his “ancient ancestors”. We used average damage for all of the crocodile. It took no time at all. It was a lot of fun! One medium and/or four large crocodile all biting and restraining the enemies. It was a third party book campaign from levels 1 to about 12, mostly based on the open ocean, coast, and a few major cities. So we had two or three terrain types along with urban cities. Mind flayers were featured in the mid and late game, so Mâchoires learned all about them throughout the adventure after their first encounter with one at level 3, eventually learning their language and habits (level 6 favored enemy). Level 1 favored enemy was beasts as he was a coastal hunter and fisherman. Favored terrain was coast. By level 3 we were on the ocean, so he studied and learned and took “ocean” (DM fiat LOL!) as level 6 favored terrain.
Yeah. For conjure animals I rarely use more than 4 creatures, if ever. And when I do it’s all flying creatures as not to clog up the battlefield. I use average damage instead of damage rolls. I bought pairs of solid color d20s (2 blue, 2 red, 2 green, etc.) so I can roll all the attacks at once in a tray before my turn. Then I mark the conjured minis as these colors. Electrical tape works well. That seems to speed things up pretty much in line with other character’s turns doing things like fireball, sneak attack, and action surge.
I also coordinated ahead of time with the other person involved, player and DM, whichever I was, and made sure we agreed on some things. The big one being for me as a player that I typically theme the conjured animals to my character so it’s the same type each time I cast the spell. For example, my last ranger was a lizardfolk beast master (PHB) that I played as a tribal crocodilefolk named Mâchoires. His beast was a medium crocodile named Amie (DM adjusted for size and CR). And when he got to level 9 all he conjured was 4 crocodile, that were his “ancient ancestors”. We used average damage for all of the crocodile. It took no time at all. It was a lot of fun! One medium and/or four large crocodile all biting and restraining the enemies. It was a third party book campaign from levels 1 to about 12, mostly based on the open ocean, coast, and a few major cities. So we had two or three terrain types along with urban cities. Mind flayers were featured in the mid and late game, so Mâchoires learned all about them throughout the adventure after their first encounter with one at level 3, eventually learning their language and habits (level 6 favored enemy). Level 1 favored enemy was beasts as he was a coastal hunter and fisherman. Favored terrain was coast. By level 3 we were on the ocean, so he studied and learned and took “ocean” (DM fiat LOL!) as level 6 favored terrain.
if you wanna use even fewers rolls for your beasts, there are rules for mob combat in the dungeon master's guide that can make a group of 8 wolves all attacking at once take as few as 0 rolls
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Thanks! I’m aware of those rules but haven’t used them yet. Have you? I will someday, especially if I was theming the spell for more large packs or flocks, like blood hawks or wolves.
Snakes, wolves, and panthers are great for damage.
wolves and panther's suck at damage tho, where it is at is the fastieth dinosaur from ebberon: rising from the last war or the giant poisonous snake, both having the best attack bonus, fastieth is the best at damage without poison and the snake is the best with the poison, and giant frogs are undoubtedly the best controllers out of all of them since they inflict the restrained condition automatically on a hit without an save allowed for the target that the target has to use an action to escape from or have disadvantage on attack rolls
...
also i think there is a really good fix to the vanilla beastmaster nobody has suggested yet: allow the ranger to have a number of companions equal to your wisdom mod, as your pets can only do anything useful in combat when you use you action to tell them to do so, having multiple will not break the game (or at least not the action economy and your total damage output) by any means and will allow you to invest in pets that have utility benefits without having to worry about not having a damage dealing pet and lets you have a backup in case of an stray fireball hitting your companion
Wolves and panthers deal respectable damage, but they also have other perks working for them. The saving throws are quickly outstripped, it's true, but a panther could potentially get off 3 attacks in a turn if it were somehow successful. But setting that aside, a wolf can more-or-less walk around town without turning too many eyes. After all, they're just big dogs. And panthers have a climb speed, which gives them a degree of maneuverability most potential companions lack. Dinosaurs tend to be more region/setting-specific than most beasts, so they won't always be available. But if they are, they're usually solid options.
That said, I don't think your suggested fix, in particular, is terribly helpful. That's a lot of mouths to feed and stable and lots of barding to purchase. Seriously, a pony in plate barding is a CR 6 creature at 20th-level. But I do think there are two easy solutions. The first, if you're only using the PHB and no outside sources, is to reinterpret the clause about adding the ranger's proficiency bonus to their saving throws. To sum up, allow it to apply to all of the companion's saving throws (including death saving throws) and any feature or trait which forces a saving throw. It's a small buff, but it'll see some returns over their adventuring career.
The second, if you're using Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, is to allow the companion to take levels as a warrior sidekick. They technically meet the requirements, but also adding the ranger's proficiency bonus functionally means having expertise in attack rolls. (A 6th-level wolf gets to attack twice, with potentially a +9 to hit, for 11 damage per hit.) Their offensive power would absolutely skyrocket, but it also doesn't break with the official interpretations of the RAW from the PHB. On the other hand, the beast master's 11th-level feature and the warrior's 7th-level feature would no longer apply. But they're not totally dead levels, as the other gets something anyway. And 15th-level just becomes insane, should you play that high.
Snakes, wolves, and panthers are great for damage.
wolves and panther's suck at damage tho, where it is at is the fastieth dinosaur from ebberon: rising from the last war or the giant poisonous snake, both having the best attack bonus, fastieth is the best at damage without poison and the snake is the best with the poison, and giant frogs are undoubtedly the best controllers out of all of them since they inflict the restrained condition automatically on a hit without an save allowed for the target that the target has to use an action to escape from or have disadvantage on attack rolls
...
also i think there is a really good fix to the vanilla beastmaster nobody has suggested yet: allow the ranger to have a number of companions equal to your wisdom mod, as your pets can only do anything useful in combat when you use you action to tell them to do so, having multiple will not break the game (or at least not the action economy and your total damage output) by any means and will allow you to invest in pets that have utility benefits without having to worry about not having a damage dealing pet and lets you have a backup in case of an stray fireball hitting your companion
Wolves and panthers deal respectable damage, but they also have other perks working for them. The saving throws are quickly outstripped, it's true, but a panther could potentially get off 3 attacks in a turn if it were somehow successful. But setting that aside, a wolf can more-or-less walk around town without turning too many eyes. After all, they're just big dogs. And panthers have a climb speed, which gives them a degree of maneuverability most potential companions lack. Dinosaurs tend to be more region/setting-specific than most beasts, so they won't always be available. But if they are, they're usually solid options.
That said, I don't think your suggested fix, in particular, is terribly helpful. That's a lot of mouths to feed and stable and lots of barding to purchase. Seriously, a pony in plate barding is a CR 6 creature at 20th-level. But I do think there are two easy solutions. The first, if you're only using the PHB and no outside sources, is to reinterpret the clause about adding the ranger's proficiency bonus to their saving throws. To sum up, allow it to apply to all of the companion's saving throws (including death saving throws) and any feature or trait which forces a saving throw. It's a small buff, but it'll see some returns over their adventuring career.
The second, if you're using Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, is to allow the companion to take levels as a warrior sidekick. They technically meet the requirements, but also adding the ranger's proficiency bonus functionally means having expertise in attack rolls. (A 6th-level wolf gets to attack twice, with potentially a +9 to hit, for 11 damage per hit.) Their offensive power would absolutely skyrocket, but it also doesn't break with the official interpretations of the RAW from the PHB. On the other hand, the beast master's 11th-level feature and the warrior's 7th-level feature would no longer apply. But they're not totally dead levels, as the other gets something anyway. And 15th-level just becomes insane, should you play that high.
Considering your last comment, (though it technically can’t be done) you could also allow them to take Expert or Spellcaster. I really want to have a Velociraptor Druid at my side...
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All hail the great and mighty platypus.
Resisting is simply standing in front of the tide and pushing at it. Even if you endure at first, you will eventually break down. Adapting, by contrast, is turning into a fish.
-me
Rangers are not underpowered. They’re just exploration-oriented.
The second, if you're using Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, is to allow the companion to take levels as a warrior sidekick. They technically meet the requirements, but also adding the ranger's proficiency bonus functionally means having expertise in attack rolls. (A 6th-level wolf gets to attack twice, with potentially a +9 to hit, for 11 damage per hit.) Their offensive power would absolutely skyrocket, but it also doesn't break with the official interpretations of the RAW from the PHB. On the other hand, the beast master's 11th-level feature and the warrior's 7th-level feature would no longer apply. But they're not totally dead levels, as the other gets something anyway. And 15th-level just becomes insane, should you play that high.
i have considered using sidekick rules but the problem is that they become disgustingly powerful really fast, assuming it keeps with the level of the party you would gain the 11th level beastmaster benefit at 6th level, and since their own proficiency bonus that increases as you level up as well as adding your proficiency bonus to everything it is proficient in means that it will be having basically expertise in all its attack rolls and all its saving throws and all its skills RAW, add on top of that that you now can increase their abillity scores wich were also stopping their skills and attacks from going through the roof, now letting you have even more ******* ludicris damage modifiers and it is not hard to see why this is a bad idea. If you are a 15th level beastmaster with an 15th level dimetrodon companion with an strength score of 20 for instance they will have an +15 bonus to hit and deals 2d6 + 10 damage with each hit it makes, and you can instruct it to make three attacks while you make one yourself. Do you possibly see how this is maybe a little more damage than what is normally acceptible by the game? Do you maybe see why this is an horrible idea? Why this would mean that the companion whould completely outshine every other martial character in the party even if you picked something more reasonable like a wolf that has +15 to hit and deals 2d4 + 10 damage each hit while making three attacks? You fool, you have doomed us all by intoducing an abberant horror that can slay gods, yes you might be able to make encounters for this but be warned that you are likely to turn the companion from an companion and sidekick to the star of the show, the main character, the thing the plot or at least every combat revolves arround, its completely ****ed, i cannot stress how powerful adding sidekick levels to an ranger's companion is. (also technically the levels in the sidekick class will increase its challenge rating, thus making it unelligible) (remember, your proficiency bonus does not replace the proficiency bonus of your companion as per RAW, you add your bonus on top of the companion's proficiency bonus for its attack rolls and skills, thus my concern about how completely and utterly unbalanced this is and why i think to do so is to let your player break the game completely)
as for the investments well you only need to supply the barding for one or two pets you use in combat, so it will not be that bad and the extra food will not matter much if your other pets are like hawks and cranium rats and stuff you use for scouting or as mounts, plus for a sidekick with high dexterity scores simple studded leather barding is going to be enough to keep up with or outclass other party members, plate barding is really overkill especially in terms of gold
The second, if you're using Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, is to allow the companion to take levels as a warrior sidekick. They technically meet the requirements, but also adding the ranger's proficiency bonus functionally means having expertise in attack rolls. (A 6th-level wolf gets to attack twice, with potentially a +9 to hit, for 11 damage per hit.) Their offensive power would absolutely skyrocket, but it also doesn't break with the official interpretations of the RAW from the PHB. On the other hand, the beast master's 11th-level feature and the warrior's 7th-level feature would no longer apply. But they're not totally dead levels, as the other gets something anyway. And 15th-level just becomes insane, should you play that high.
i have considered using sidekick rules but the problem is that they become disgustingly powerful really fast, assuming it keeps with the level of the party you would gain the 11th level beastmaster benefit at 6th level, and since their own proficiency bonus that increases as you level up as well as adding your proficiency bonus to everything it is proficient in means that it will be having basically expertise in all its attack rolls and all its saving throws and all its skills RAW, add on top of that that you now can increase their abillity scores wich were also stopping their skills and attacks from going through the roof, now letting you have even more ****ing ludicris damage modifiers and it is not hard to see why this is a bad idea. If you are a 15th level beastmaster with an 15th level dimetrodon companion with an strength score of 20 for instance they will have an +15 bonus to hit and deals 2d6 + 10 damage with each hit it makes, and you can instruct it to make three attacks while you make one yourself. Do you possibly see how this is maybe a little more damage than what is normally acceptible by the game? Do you maybe see why this is an horrible idea? Why this would mean that the companion whould completely outshine every other martial character in the party even if you picked something more reasonable like a wolf that has +15 to hit and deals 2d4 + 10 damage each hit while making three attacks? You fool, you have doomed us all by intoducing an abberant horror that can slay gods. (also technically the levels in the sidekick class will increase its challenge rating, thus making it unelligible) (remember, your proficiency bonus does not replace the proficiency bonus of your companion as per RAW, you add your bonus on top of the companion's proficiency bonus for its attack rolls and skills, thus my concern about how completely and utterly unbalanced this is and why i think to do so is to let your player break the game completely)
as for the investments well you only need to supply the barding for one or two pets you use in combat, so it will not be that bad and the extra food will not matter much if your other pets are like hawks and cranium rats and stuff you use for scouting or as mounts
Also the mage sidekick learns almost as many spells as the Ranger and Sorcerer which is also pretty crazy.
The second, if you're using Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, is to allow the companion to take levels as a warrior sidekick. They technically meet the requirements, but also adding the ranger's proficiency bonus functionally means having expertise in attack rolls. (A 6th-level wolf gets to attack twice, with potentially a +9 to hit, for 11 damage per hit.) Their offensive power would absolutely skyrocket, but it also doesn't break with the official interpretations of the RAW from the PHB. On the other hand, the beast master's 11th-level feature and the warrior's 7th-level feature would no longer apply. But they're not totally dead levels, as the other gets something anyway. And 15th-level just becomes insane, should you play that high.
i have considered using sidekick rules but the problem is that they become disgustingly powerful really fast, assuming it keeps with the level of the party you would gain the 11th level beastmaster benefit at 6th level, and since their own proficiency bonus that increases as you level up as well as adding your proficiency bonus to everything it is proficient in means that it will be having basically expertise in all its attack rolls and all its saving throws and all its skills RAW, add on top of that that you now can increase their abillity scores wich were also stopping their skills and attacks from going through the roof, now letting you have even more ****ing ludicris damage modifiers and it is not hard to see why this is a bad idea. If you are a 15th level beastmaster with an 15th level dimetrodon companion with an strength score of 20 for instance they will have an +15 bonus to hit and deals 2d6 + 10 damage with each hit it makes, and you can instruct it to make three attacks while you make one yourself. Do you possibly see how this is maybe a little more damage than what is normally acceptible by the game? Do you maybe see why this is an horrible idea? Why this would mean that the companion whould completely outshine every other martial character in the party even if you picked something more reasonable like a wolf that has +15 to hit and deals 2d4 + 10 damage each hit while making three attacks? You fool, you have doomed us all by intoducing an abberant horror that can slay gods. (also technically the levels in the sidekick class will increase its challenge rating, thus making it unelligible) (remember, your proficiency bonus does not replace the proficiency bonus of your companion as per RAW, you add your bonus on top of the companion's proficiency bonus for its attack rolls and skills, thus my concern about how completely and utterly unbalanced this is and why i think to do so is to let your player break the game completely)
as for the investments well you only need to supply the barding for one or two pets you use in combat, so it will not be that bad and the extra food will not matter much if your other pets are like hawks and cranium rats and stuff you use for scouting or as mounts
Also the mage sidekick learns almost as many spells as the Ranger and Sorcerer which is also pretty crazy.
that is not a big deal becuase 1) no valid animal companion to my knowledge is eligible to be an mage (the giant owl speaks languages but is too big to be an companion) and 2) beasts tend to have pretty bad mental abillity scores
not to say that a mage sidekick will not still deal more damage per hit and be way more accurate than any of your other party members thanks to it also getting its ASI's and increasing its proficiency bonus and giving it more skills and stuff, but it might be not nearly as bad (that said they still add your redundant proficiency bonus to its spell attack rolls as well), the main problem is still the warrior sidekick class that you should under no circumstances give to an ranger companion even if you are deliberately missreading the ranger's companion feature to nerf it slightly. If you want to use the sidekick rules and have an ranger who is controlling a beast, you are better off telling your ranger to play another subclass and then just give them a beast sidekick, that way you will not **** over the entire balance of the game and you will likely make the ranger happy, there you go problem solved, you can have one or the other, but never dare mix them or you will most severely regret the result
The second, if you're using Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, is to allow the companion to take levels as a warrior sidekick. They technically meet the requirements, ...
Do they really? I mean, you find the beast's stat block in the MM, but the beast companion has different stats. The Beastmaster rules also specify the beast you can choose can't have a CR higher than 1/4. Am I really the only one who thinks that's pushing the "technicalities" a bit far?
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The second, if you're using Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, is to allow the companion to take levels as a warrior sidekick. They technically meet the requirements, ...
Do they really? I mean, you find the beast's stat block in the MM, but the beast companion has different stats. The Beastmaster rules also specify the beast you can choose can't have a CR higher than 1/4. Am I really the only one who thinks that's pushing the "technicalities" a bit far?
Seconded. I was mostly saying that the sidekick rules are a bit over tuned for the most part and should be used judiciously. The beast master in Tasha's is actually a lot better due to the changes so I am less inclined to say they need the rules anyway....
PHB version however is generally pretty lackluster....with the majority of the discussion coming directly from people who have played the class or have DM'd for them.
The one player I had pick beast master lost the wolf on day 2 due to an unlucky crit and being underground in out of the abyss it was hard to justify them getting another wolf AND spending 8 hours bonding with it.....
Overall the subclass revamp was very much needed as were the class changes to ranger.
I would say you're correct, up to a point. All sidekicks have the capability to become powerful fast. A thug, 20th-level warrior, with plate armor and a maul is CR 10. A wolf companion, with all the perks from the ranger class, 20th-level warrior, in a breastplate with 20 Strength and 14 Constitution, would be about CR 10-11; depending on their chosen role. Likewise, a scout, 20th-level expert, would top out at CR 7. So would a regular (i.e. non-companion) wolf with the same stats and armor listed above.
The beast companion would only get three meaningful benefits over a normal companion:
One astronomically high saving throw, or two if they take the Resilient feat.
Their armor class could easily reach the mid-20s, but that was always possible before.
Their attack and damage rolls remain competitive without a lot of investment in their ability scores.
Even a giant poisonous snake with studded leather, 20 Dexterity, and 20 Constitution would top out at CR 12. I don't think it would break the game to allow it; especially given the power creep found all throughout that book. And it would make them as strong as some pretty beefy threats, but by 20th-level we shouldn't care, either.
That said, I do think it's worth going back and seeing how these companion-sidekicks might stack up in a typical 10-15 hardcover adventure.
The second, if you're using Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, is to allow the companion to take levels as a warrior sidekick. They technically meet the requirements, ...
Do they really? I mean, you find the beast's stat block in the MM, but the beast companion has different stats. The Beastmaster rules also specify the beast you can choose can't have a CR higher than 1/4. Am I really the only one who thinks that's pushing the "technicalities" a bit far?
Seconded. I was mostly saying that the sidekick rules are a bit over tuned for the most part and should be used judiciously. The beast master in Tasha's is actually a lot better due to the changes so I am less inclined to say they need the rules anyway....
PHB version however is generally pretty lackluster....with the majority of the discussion coming directly from people who have played the class or have DM'd for them.
The one player I had pick beast master lost the wolf on day 2 due to an unlucky crit and being underground in out of the abyss it was hard to justify them getting another wolf AND spending 8 hours bonding with it.....
Overall the subclass revamp was very much needed as were the class changes to ranger.
the sidekicks are overtuned? really? like they got seriously nerfed from their previous incarnations, and they are still considered full characters for the purposes of encounter difficulty, the only real problem i see is that many valid creatures like pixies, shadows, cloakers, and the NPC scout might risk outshadowing the player characters, especially duing early levels
also like who cares about that guy loosing his doggo, there are so many fun beastly friends your beastmaster can make in the underdark, from giant wolf spiders to one of those cave badgers exclusive to that module with tremorsense and borrowing speeds to the absurd and obscure like the deep rothé from volo's guide to monsters with ¤ magical flashing lights ¤ and stuff, upgrades people, upgrades
also what is that first guy saying that being a companion would increase its CR beyond the threshold for a sidekick, or vice versa, or is he saying that the beast companion has no value for challenge rating since it has been modified? Cus like you can have an sidekick that is medium and CR 1/4th, it is not magically treated as having a higher CR all of a sudden
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The second, if you're using Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, is to allow the companion to take levels as a warrior sidekick. They technically meet the requirements, ...
Do they really? I mean, you find the beast's stat block in the MM, but the beast companion has different stats. The Beastmaster rules also specify the beast you can choose can't have a CR higher than 1/4. Am I really the only one who thinks that's pushing the "technicalities" a bit far?
Seconded. I was mostly saying that the sidekick rules are a bit over tuned for the most part and should be used judiciously. The beast master in Tasha's is actually a lot better due to the changes so I am less inclined to say they need the rules anyway....
PHB version however is generally pretty lackluster....with the majority of the discussion coming directly from people who have played the class or have DM'd for them.
The one player I had pick beast master lost the wolf on day 2 due to an unlucky crit and being underground in out of the abyss it was hard to justify them getting another wolf AND spending 8 hours bonding with it.....
Overall the subclass revamp was very much needed as were the class changes to ranger.
the sidekicks are overtuned? really? like they got seriously nerfed from their previous incarnations, and they are still considered full characters for the purposes of encounter difficulty, the only real problem i see is that many valid creatures like pixies, shadows, cloakers, and the NPC scout might risk outshadowing the player characters, especially duing early levels
also like who cares about that guy loosing his doggo, there are so many fun beastly friends your beastmaster can make in the underdark, from giant wolf spiders to one of those cave badgers exclusive to that module with tremorsense and borrowing speeds to the absurd and obscure like the deep rothé from volo's guide to monsters with ¤ magical flashing lights ¤ and stuff, upgrades people, upgrades
also what is that first guy saying that being a companion would increase its CR beyond the threshold for a sidekick, or vice versa, or is he saying that the beast companion has no value for challenge rating since it has been modified? Cus like you can have an sidekick that is medium and CR 1/4th, it is not magically treated as having a higher CR all of a sudden
They dont want a spider....they want a wolf and designed a story/everything around this beast....as one should when it's a core feature of your class.
That's like saying "Nah you don't want a Archfey patron you want Hexblade because its better and it fits my story...sorry bro you got a talking sword!"
also like who cares about that guy loosing his doggo, there are so many fun beastly friends your beastmaster can make in the underdark, from giant wolf spiders to one of those cave badgers exclusive to that module with tremorsense and borrowing speeds to the absurd and obscure like the deep rothé from volo's guide to monsters with ¤ magical flashing lights ¤ and stuff, upgrades people, upgrades
I know. The deep rothe. Good at low levels, a nice mount, and it has magic lights with a negative spellcasting ability. Wait
Absurd idea
1. Play Custom Lineage
2. Smol with Dual Wielder
3. Be a ranger on a magic subterrenean cow wielding two lances at once
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All hail the great and mighty platypus.
Resisting is simply standing in front of the tide and pushing at it. Even if you endure at first, you will eventually break down. Adapting, by contrast, is turning into a fish.
-me
Rangers are not underpowered. They’re just exploration-oriented.
You know... I played a Beastmaster Ranger. It was when the game came out, and it was the Lost Mines when the game first hit. Wood elf, went with twin short swords and a panther ( I liked the idea of pouncing, then being there to smack the enemy). My DM did not allow me to use Hunter's Mark with the beast, but they did allow me to use my bonus action attack from duel wielding. At the time, I thought it was a reasonable build.
My experience is thusly - At level 3, when I got the panther, I immediately started feeling a bit weird about fighting. I was used to attacking twice, and now with a fresh body, it was strange that I felt like I was only attacking once. I chalked it up to "learning to fight together" from an in-character stand point, but I was seriously glad that my DM let me attack with my off hand weapon, and I wasn't using a bow. Forgetting how to shoot a bow so I could attack with the panther just felt wrong. As it was, it was just odd to be running around holding a glorified stick in my hand that I never used for two levels, and I couldn't help but compare myself to a Hunter who could get extra damage AND use Hunter's Mark. And I felt lacking in combat.
Now, out of combat, it was more helpful, because (rather than rolling for two) my just let me roll advantage when it came to traps and other perception tricks. (( On a related note, at this point I came to the conclusion that Favored Enemy was meaningless for me, since my pet made it slightly redundant, but if we rolled separately for panther and PC, it wouldn't, but since I was running with Expertise, Help was better than Perception for the panther. ))
Level 5, things evened out a bit - I could attack with both hands again, plus panther, so it was a less janky experience. Still, as I managed to snag a +1 sword, I was less a fan of having to juggle three different to-hit rolls with different bonuses and damages. A small annoyance. This was the part where we started noticing that, yes, damage matters on the panther. We managed to keep them alive, because Pounce was great when it worked, but we were noticing more and more critters resisting that DC 12 knock down got progressively easier for many monsters. Well, 13, because the DM let me use my proficency bonus when calculating the save, but still. And we couldn't use that pounce ability too often without risking OAs; low HP and middling AC discouraged that. And the panther did get hit with fair amount of frequency. Myself and the group bard did heal the panther, but it was a steadier drain on our resources than we liked. No replacement until the next break, which took a couple sessions.
Level 7 was meaningless to me. My bonus action was basically perma-taken, and I don't remember running into any enemies with magical weapon restrictions. The game lasted another level or two, I forget which, but at this point we started running into scheduling problems between players, so we kinda broke up soon after.
I didn't actually have the panther die on me. My ranger died and was Revived, but not the furball - I got the last spell slot. However, given how quickly the pace of the game was moving, I didn't give a lot of thought to the fact that, if we had both died then, I would have been effectively stripped of my subclass for a couple sessions until I got a chance for another pet. But I did feel that it would pretty much sucked and soured me on the subclass as a whole.
My overall experience was that going Beastmaster was not terribly fun. As we leveled, more and more, I felt that I was overshadowing the panther with just regular attacks, and I expected it to get worse as we got higher in level. We never got to 11, so that might have changed, but I felt like I was bleeding spell slots and doing less damage to keep the cat on the board. Couldn't get Pounce off often enough either. Between the jankiness of early play, and the annoyance of having to carry the furball later on, just wasn't as fun as it should have been.
Damn. That’s the most flushed out retelling of a real beast master ranger experience I’ve seen on these forums.
I’ll argue the merits of the class and subclass until the cows are conjured home, but even I have to admit that a large majority of players find them to fall very short of their expectations. Makes me sad.
Honestly, I don't think that 5e did a decent job with any of the pets. Chain warlock, the Conjure spells, the paladin mount, basic hirelings, animate dead... Its either underwhelming, or you're flooding the battlefield with low rank monsters that are breaking action economy over its knees, which brings about different problems (mostly, slows down play to the point people were walking away from the table).
Haven't tried out the Tasha stuff yet. Might be better? We'll see.
Yeah. For conjure animals I rarely use more than 4 creatures, if ever. And when I do it’s all flying creatures as not to clog up the battlefield. I use average damage instead of damage rolls. I bought pairs of solid color d20s (2 blue, 2 red, 2 green, etc.) so I can roll all the attacks at once in a tray before my turn. Then I mark the conjured minis as these colors. Electrical tape works well. That seems to speed things up pretty much in line with other character’s turns doing things like fireball, sneak attack, and action surge.
I also coordinated ahead of time with the other person involved, player and DM, whichever I was, and made sure we agreed on some things. The big one being for me as a player that I typically theme the conjured animals to my character so it’s the same type each time I cast the spell. For example, my last ranger was a lizardfolk beast master (PHB) that I played as a tribal crocodilefolk named Mâchoires. His beast was a medium crocodile named Amie (DM adjusted for size and CR). And when he got to level 9 all he conjured was 4 crocodile, that were his “ancient ancestors”. We used average damage for all of the crocodile. It took no time at all. It was a lot of fun! One medium and/or four large crocodile all biting and restraining the enemies. It was a third party book campaign from levels 1 to about 12, mostly based on the open ocean, coast, and a few major cities. So we had two or three terrain types along with urban cities. Mind flayers were featured in the mid and late game, so Mâchoires learned all about them throughout the adventure after their first encounter with one at level 3, eventually learning their language and habits (level 6 favored enemy). Level 1 favored enemy was beasts as he was a coastal hunter and fisherman. Favored terrain was coast. By level 3 we were on the ocean, so he studied and learned and took “ocean” (DM fiat LOL!) as level 6 favored terrain.
if you wanna use even fewers rolls for your beasts, there are rules for mob combat in the dungeon master's guide that can make a group of 8 wolves all attacking at once take as few as 0 rolls
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Thanks! I’m aware of those rules but haven’t used them yet. Have you? I will someday, especially if I was theming the spell for more large packs or flocks, like blood hawks or wolves.
Wolves and panthers deal respectable damage, but they also have other perks working for them. The saving throws are quickly outstripped, it's true, but a panther could potentially get off 3 attacks in a turn if it were somehow successful. But setting that aside, a wolf can more-or-less walk around town without turning too many eyes. After all, they're just big dogs. And panthers have a climb speed, which gives them a degree of maneuverability most potential companions lack. Dinosaurs tend to be more region/setting-specific than most beasts, so they won't always be available. But if they are, they're usually solid options.
That said, I don't think your suggested fix, in particular, is terribly helpful. That's a lot of mouths to feed and stable and lots of barding to purchase. Seriously, a pony in plate barding is a CR 6 creature at 20th-level. But I do think there are two easy solutions. The first, if you're only using the PHB and no outside sources, is to reinterpret the clause about adding the ranger's proficiency bonus to their saving throws. To sum up, allow it to apply to all of the companion's saving throws (including death saving throws) and any feature or trait which forces a saving throw. It's a small buff, but it'll see some returns over their adventuring career.
The second, if you're using Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, is to allow the companion to take levels as a warrior sidekick. They technically meet the requirements, but also adding the ranger's proficiency bonus functionally means having expertise in attack rolls. (A 6th-level wolf gets to attack twice, with potentially a +9 to hit, for 11 damage per hit.) Their offensive power would absolutely skyrocket, but it also doesn't break with the official interpretations of the RAW from the PHB. On the other hand, the beast master's 11th-level feature and the warrior's 7th-level feature would no longer apply. But they're not totally dead levels, as the other gets something anyway. And 15th-level just becomes insane, should you play that high.
Considering your last comment, (though it technically can’t be done) you could also allow them to take Expert or Spellcaster. I really want to have a Velociraptor Druid at my side...
All hail the great and mighty platypus.
Resisting is simply standing in front of the tide and pushing at it. Even if you endure at first, you will eventually break down. Adapting, by contrast, is turning into a fish.
-me
Rangers are not underpowered. They’re just exploration-oriented.
My homebrew setting: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/94809-wakai-a-setting-inspired-by-japanese-folklore-and
This account is kinda old and I haven’t used it in a while
i have considered using sidekick rules but the problem is that they become disgustingly powerful really fast, assuming it keeps with the level of the party you would gain the 11th level beastmaster benefit at 6th level, and since their own proficiency bonus that increases as you level up as well as adding your proficiency bonus to everything it is proficient in means that it will be having basically expertise in all its attack rolls and all its saving throws and all its skills RAW, add on top of that that you now can increase their abillity scores wich were also stopping their skills and attacks from going through the roof, now letting you have even more ******* ludicris damage modifiers and it is not hard to see why this is a bad idea. If you are a 15th level beastmaster with an 15th level dimetrodon companion with an strength score of 20 for instance they will have an +15 bonus to hit and deals 2d6 + 10 damage with each hit it makes, and you can instruct it to make three attacks while you make one yourself. Do you possibly see how this is maybe a little more damage than what is normally acceptible by the game? Do you maybe see why this is an horrible idea? Why this would mean that the companion whould completely outshine every other martial character in the party even if you picked something more reasonable like a wolf that has +15 to hit and deals 2d4 + 10 damage each hit while making three attacks? You fool, you have doomed us all by intoducing an abberant horror that can slay gods, yes you might be able to make encounters for this but be warned that you are likely to turn the companion from an companion and sidekick to the star of the show, the main character, the thing the plot or at least every combat revolves arround, its completely ****ed, i cannot stress how powerful adding sidekick levels to an ranger's companion is.
(also technically the levels in the sidekick class will increase its challenge rating, thus making it unelligible)
(remember, your proficiency bonus does not replace the proficiency bonus of your companion as per RAW, you add your bonus on top of the companion's proficiency bonus for its attack rolls and skills, thus my concern about how completely and utterly unbalanced this is and why i think to do so is to let your player break the game completely)
as for the investments well you only need to supply the barding for one or two pets you use in combat, so it will not be that bad and the extra food will not matter much if your other pets are like hawks and cranium rats and stuff you use for scouting or as mounts, plus for a sidekick with high dexterity scores simple studded leather barding is going to be enough to keep up with or outclass other party members, plate barding is really overkill especially in terms of gold
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Also the mage sidekick learns almost as many spells as the Ranger and Sorcerer which is also pretty crazy.
that is not a big deal becuase 1) no valid animal companion to my knowledge is eligible to be an mage (the giant owl speaks languages but is too big to be an companion) and 2) beasts tend to have pretty bad mental abillity scores
not to say that a mage sidekick will not still deal more damage per hit and be way more accurate than any of your other party members thanks to it also getting its ASI's and increasing its proficiency bonus and giving it more skills and stuff, but it might be not nearly as bad (that said they still add your redundant proficiency bonus to its spell attack rolls as well), the main problem is still the warrior sidekick class that you should under no circumstances give to an ranger companion even if you are deliberately missreading the ranger's companion feature to nerf it slightly. If you want to use the sidekick rules and have an ranger who is controlling a beast, you are better off telling your ranger to play another subclass and then just give them a beast sidekick, that way you will not **** over the entire balance of the game and you will likely make the ranger happy, there you go problem solved, you can have one or the other, but never dare mix them or you will most severely regret the result
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Do they really? I mean, you find the beast's stat block in the MM, but the beast companion has different stats. The Beastmaster rules also specify the beast you can choose can't have a CR higher than 1/4. Am I really the only one who thinks that's pushing the "technicalities" a bit far?
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Seconded. I was mostly saying that the sidekick rules are a bit over tuned for the most part and should be used judiciously. The beast master in Tasha's is actually a lot better due to the changes so I am less inclined to say they need the rules anyway....
PHB version however is generally pretty lackluster....with the majority of the discussion coming directly from people who have played the class or have DM'd for them.
The one player I had pick beast master lost the wolf on day 2 due to an unlucky crit and being underground in out of the abyss it was hard to justify them getting another wolf AND spending 8 hours bonding with it.....
Overall the subclass revamp was very much needed as were the class changes to ranger.
I would say you're correct, up to a point. All sidekicks have the capability to become powerful fast. A thug, 20th-level warrior, with plate armor and a maul is CR 10. A wolf companion, with all the perks from the ranger class, 20th-level warrior, in a breastplate with 20 Strength and 14 Constitution, would be about CR 10-11; depending on their chosen role. Likewise, a scout, 20th-level expert, would top out at CR 7. So would a regular (i.e. non-companion) wolf with the same stats and armor listed above.
The beast companion would only get three meaningful benefits over a normal companion:
Even a giant poisonous snake with studded leather, 20 Dexterity, and 20 Constitution would top out at CR 12. I don't think it would break the game to allow it; especially given the power creep found all throughout that book. And it would make them as strong as some pretty beefy threats, but by 20th-level we shouldn't care, either.
That said, I do think it's worth going back and seeing how these companion-sidekicks might stack up in a typical 10-15 hardcover adventure.
the sidekicks are overtuned? really? like they got seriously nerfed from their previous incarnations, and they are still considered full characters for the purposes of encounter difficulty, the only real problem i see is that many valid creatures like pixies, shadows, cloakers, and the NPC scout might risk outshadowing the player characters, especially duing early levels
also like who cares about that guy loosing his doggo, there are so many fun beastly friends your beastmaster can make in the underdark, from giant wolf spiders to one of those cave badgers exclusive to that module with tremorsense and borrowing speeds to the absurd and obscure like the deep rothé from volo's guide to monsters with ¤ magical flashing lights ¤ and stuff, upgrades people, upgrades
also what is that first guy saying that being a companion would increase its CR beyond the threshold for a sidekick, or vice versa, or is he saying that the beast companion has no value for challenge rating since it has been modified? Cus like you can have an sidekick that is medium and CR 1/4th, it is not magically treated as having a higher CR all of a sudden
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Let me bring up something else: if a beast companion technically qualifies as a sidekick and vice versa, the same is true for a familiar.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
See, now I want to do this....
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
They dont want a spider....they want a wolf and designed a story/everything around this beast....as one should when it's a core feature of your class.
That's like saying "Nah you don't want a Archfey patron you want Hexblade because its better and it fits my story...sorry bro you got a talking sword!"
I know. The deep rothe. Good at low levels, a nice mount, and it has magic lights with a negative spellcasting ability.
Wait
Absurd idea
1. Play Custom Lineage
2. Smol with Dual Wielder
3. Be a ranger on a magic subterrenean cow wielding two lances at once
All hail the great and mighty platypus.
Resisting is simply standing in front of the tide and pushing at it. Even if you endure at first, you will eventually break down. Adapting, by contrast, is turning into a fish.
-me
Rangers are not underpowered. They’re just exploration-oriented.
My homebrew setting: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/94809-wakai-a-setting-inspired-by-japanese-folklore-and
This account is kinda old and I haven’t used it in a while
A player plays the sidekick as their second character - ideal when you have only one or two players.
A player plays the sidekick as their only character - ideal for a player who wants a character who's simpler than a typical player character.
The players jointly play the sidekick.
You play the sidekick.