Epic boons are just one example. Cause of strahd has at least 2 types of boons. Magical tattoos, manual books(yes there are ways to let a beast read) dm or campaign specific boons like in AL. Ravinia symic mutation. Training. Devine blessings. Earned titles. Gone just for switching from beast of the land to sea.
I am seriously beginning to think you never play any fun adventures.
Also,If you complain about a ranger using his own money for healing and Resurrection I will report you to PETA. 😉 you sure like to find any excuse to complain don't you.
A Ranger's spell slot is a valuable resource most of the time affecting whole encounters or making combat turning choices. selfishly letting either companion die is a waste and planning on tasha's dieing is just silly and out of character for a beastmaster.
Epic boons are just one example. Cause of strahd has at least 2 types of boons. Magical tattoos, manual books(yes there are ways to let a beast read) dm or campaign specific boons like in AL. Ravinia symic mutation. Training. Devine blessings. Earned titles. Gone just for switching from beast of the land to sea.
I am seriously beginning to think you never play any fun adventures.
Also,If you complain about a ranger using his own money for healing and Resurrection I will report you to PETA. 😉 you sure like to find any excuse to complain don't you.
A Ranger's spell slot is a valuable resource most of the time affecting whole encounters or making combat turning choices. selfishly letting either companion die is a waste and planning on tasha's dieing is just silly and out of character for a beastmaster.
I just point out facts when they are presented.
Overall all of yours so far paint a pretty poor picture of PHB ranger if these are the "strengths"
I'm not sure why you would ever give the familiar/pet a boon in a game... especially if not all players have one.
Tattooing an animal would get PETA on you pretty fast as well....I wouldn't ever do it to an animal
Yes, right, and that you have to find the beast you need. If you want the crab, but there are no crabs where you are, you're screwed. If you're in a dungeon, you're screwed. In short, if the animal dies, you're screwed. You can summon Tasha's again with no problem. And continue with your adventure.
Why would you stick with a crab when better environmentally appropriate animals are near by? Why didn't you heal it? Stabilize is a medicine check.
Save its corpse and Resurrect it when naratively appropriate. Then choose which to keep and which to release(or keep both assuming your dm understands the pet deathloophole)
Also,You do realize that changing your tashas beast actually destroys the previous one. Same with being unable to touch its corpse.(eaten, disintegrate,scouting defeat, ect. Right? Even if you use a spell slot for Resurrection you get the beast back but you still are at the same place as a ranger that used a slot to avoid damage.
Permanent knowledge, epic boons all gone.
Ains, we keep hovering over circumstantial little things that depend on things external to the subclass.
To heal, resurrect, etc... your creature, situations have to occur that are not considered in the subclass. Like having an ally who can do it, or a magic item, or whatever.
What the subclass tells you is what happens when it dies. And that mechanic is much more punish than the Tasha's variant.
If you manage to work around that punishment* using the specific circumstances of your game, good for you. But that doesn't make the punishment any less, nor does it improve the comparison to the other variant that doesn't punish you that way.
*I use the word punishment for lack of a better one. I'm not a native, and I couldn't think of another way to call that.
I'm actually going to revise my opinion on the topic, with a single build I can think of where PHB beastmaster is required and therefor better than the Tasha's revision.
Flying mounted archery. You pick a small race of your choice, grab a pteranodon (Medium creature with a fly speed), mount up and fly 300 feet into the air, grab mounted combatant then sharpshooter for feats. You keep diving up and down to enter/exit the 320ft range of shortbows and light crossbows and plink at enemies at maximum range while mounted combatant keeps your pet alive. You are outside the range of aoe spells, and redirect any attacks made at either of you, which will likely also have disadvantage because of the range.
Other than this build which only works in open air spaces though, the beastmaster's only other somewhat viable options is a cheap poison milking animal (or you could just befriend one and milk it while having an actual subclass) or finding an animal companion with +perception (or expertise, I would need to actually look to see if one has it) as well as keen senses to get an impressive passive perception score to autodetect things for you.
I'm actually going to revise my opinion on the topic, with a single build I can think of where PHB beastmaster is required and therefor better than the Tasha's revision.
Flying mounted archery. You pick a small race of your choice, grab a pteranodon (Medium creature with a fly speed), mount up and fly 300 feet into the air, grab mounted combatant then sharpshooter for feats. You keep diving up and down to enter/exit the 320ft range of shortbows and light crossbows and plink at enemies at maximum range while mounted combatant keeps your pet alive. You are outside the range of aoe spells, and redirect any attacks made at either of you, which will likely also have disadvantage because of the range.
Other than this build which only works in open air spaces though, the beastmaster's only other somewhat viable options is a cheap poison milking animal (or you could just befriend one and milk it while having an actual subclass) or finding an animal companion with +perception (or expertise, I would need to actually look to see if one has it) as well as keen senses to get an impressive passive perception score to autodetect things for you.
That build is one held action away from you and your pet dying ....
It only has 13 HP to start so it's incredibly weak. Once it's dead you take falling damage for 300ft.... So 20d6 or maximum fall damage. That's about 70 HP worth or instant death for most things at level 3.
Plus a long bow has a disadvantage distance of 600ft so 300ft means nothing.
I like the thought but if that's the best we can do for a PHB build I'm still not sold at all
This is a tangent, but the one build I have thought of where I would want to play a PHB Beastmaster is a Ranger / Shadow Sorcerer Multiclass.
Take the Summon Beast spell, and now I have a creature I can command with my bonus action + my companion that I command with my action + the hound of ill omen which acts on its own. Basically, I would only play a PHB Beastmaster if I wanted to ensure every part of my turn went into commanding three different animals to fight for me while I sit in the back.
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This is a tangent, but the one build I have thought of where I would want to play a PHB Beastmaster is a Ranger / Shadow Sorcerer Multiclass.
Take the Summon Beast spell, and now I have a creature I can command with my bonus action + my companion that I command with my action + the hound of ill omen which acts on its own. Basically, I would only play a PHB Beastmaster if I wanted to ensure every part of my turn went into commanding three different animals to fight for me while I sit in the back.
That's..... Pretty good!
I haven't thought of this option before but it's very interesting.
I'm actually going to revise my opinion on the topic, with a single build I can think of where PHB beastmaster is required and therefor better than the Tasha's revision.
Flying mounted archery. You pick a small race of your choice, grab a pteranodon (Medium creature with a fly speed), mount up and fly 300 feet into the air, grab mounted combatant then sharpshooter for feats. You keep diving up and down to enter/exit the 320ft range of shortbows and light crossbows and plink at enemies at maximum range while mounted combatant keeps your pet alive. You are outside the range of aoe spells, and redirect any attacks made at either of you, which will likely also have disadvantage because of the range.
Other than this build which only works in open air spaces though, the beastmaster's only other somewhat viable options is a cheap poison milking animal (or you could just befriend one and milk it while having an actual subclass) or finding an animal companion with +perception (or expertise, I would need to actually look to see if one has it) as well as keen senses to get an impressive passive perception score to autodetect things for you.
That build is one held action away from you and your pet dying ....
It only has 13 HP to start so it's incredibly weak. Once it's dead you take falling damage for 300ft.... So 20d6 or maximum fall damage. That's about 70 HP worth or instant death for most things at level 3.
Plus a long bow has a disadvantage distance of 600ft so 300ft means nothing.
I like the thought but if that's the best we can do for a PHB build I'm still not sold at all
The Mounted Combatant feat lets you redirect attacks to yourself rather than the mount, and it's out of range of any practical spellcasting enemies, you maintain your height at 320 ducking up and down during your turns, so slightly out of range of longbow normal range.
The advantages of this is the 60 foot fly speed mostly, that's a passive 3rd level spell that is generally considered to be good. It puts you at a speed that can outdo a lot of fliers, so you can midair kite out opponents while sniping and riding.
I'm not really going to pretend that the build is significantly viable, this can easily be replicated later on by using conjure animals either from yourself or a friendly druid. It is one of if not THE earliest way you can hit a 60 ft fly speed though, but it is reliant on the dm letting you find a dinosaur (which isn't actually that unreasonable given that they exist in a lot of D&D worlds). It also has the price tag of a custom made saddle on top of it too, which while likely not too important is worth noting.
I'm actually going to revise my opinion on the topic, with a single build I can think of where PHB beastmaster is required and therefor better than the Tasha's revision.
Flying mounted archery. You pick a small race of your choice, grab a pteranodon (Medium creature with a fly speed), mount up and fly 300 feet into the air, grab mounted combatant then sharpshooter for feats. You keep diving up and down to enter/exit the 320ft range of shortbows and light crossbows and plink at enemies at maximum range while mounted combatant keeps your pet alive. You are outside the range of aoe spells, and redirect any attacks made at either of you, which will likely also have disadvantage because of the range.
Other than this build which only works in open air spaces though, the beastmaster's only other somewhat viable options is a cheap poison milking animal (or you could just befriend one and milk it while having an actual subclass) or finding an animal companion with +perception (or expertise, I would need to actually look to see if one has it) as well as keen senses to get an impressive passive perception score to autodetect things for you.
Keep in mind that the rules for mounts also say that the creature needs to have a suitable anatomy. I'm not sure Pteranodons would work as mounts but at the very least it puts it into the realm of DM fiat (not to mention that there are plenty settings where dinosaurs don't exist in the first place).
Also mounted combat rules are wonky and there are more situations where you can't fight while mounted than there are situations where you can. Whenever you're inside buildings, dungeons, caves, dense forests and such you simply won't be able to fight this way.
Not to mention that you never let your companion actually fight you could just do the same thing as Aakocra anyway while actually having a subclass.
Forgotten realms specifically says there's a race of halflings that do just this.
And by taking other races than a flying one you have acquired a different and possibly better racial feature.
A beastmaster with a flight build can rework their strategy a flying race has less opportunity.
This is a tangent, but the one build I have thought of where I would want to play a PHB Beastmaster is a Ranger / Shadow Sorcerer Multiclass.
Take the Summon Beast spell, and now I have a creature I can command with my bonus action + my companion that I command with my action + the hound of ill omen which acts on its own. Basically, I would only play a PHB Beastmaster if I wanted to ensure every part of my turn went into commanding three different animals to fight for me while I sit in the back.
Yeah I think D4 did something like that. Called it the Pokemon Tainer or something like that (for the clicks, not because he thought it's the best name for it lol). It's a fun concept but it'd still feel weird to have all these weapon proficiencies, ability scores etc and just don't do anything with it but to each their own.
Oh yeah, itd be weird for sure. Definitely only a build I would play for a one-shot or something, lol
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Yes Forgotten Realms does. Hence why I didn't say they don't exist there. That'd be daft. However not everyone plays in the Forgotten Realms. In fact many many groups play in homebrew settings.
So racial feature and a whole subclass are about equal in your opinion. I don't even know how to respond to that. It's just absurd.
A flying race has less opportunity to rework their strategy? I forgot that they have to fly all the time or sit out on an adventure ... oh wait they don't.
Yes because it's harder to change races than change functions for your beast.
Congratulations to minoke and kaboom and others for at least considering potential instead of being close minded.
The trap however is most of the participants have rightly suggested, being too focused on one concept can come crashing down. There are ways to specialize and protect such builds but being able to adapt and find the fun and benefit elsewhere is also important. A build focused on one pillar is easily tumbled. This is why you want to know what your absolute points are and what your flexibility is.
I'm actually going to revise my opinion on the topic, with a single build I can think of where PHB beastmaster is required and therefor better than the Tasha's revision.
Flying mounted archery. You pick a small race of your choice, grab a pteranodon (Medium creature with a fly speed), mount up and fly 300 feet into the air, grab mounted combatant then sharpshooter for feats. You keep diving up and down to enter/exit the 320ft range of shortbows and light crossbows and plink at enemies at maximum range while mounted combatant keeps your pet alive. You are outside the range of aoe spells, and redirect any attacks made at either of you, which will likely also have disadvantage because of the range.
Other than this build which only works in open air spaces though, the beastmaster's only other somewhat viable options is a cheap poison milking animal (or you could just befriend one and milk it while having an actual subclass) or finding an animal companion with +perception (or expertise, I would need to actually look to see if one has it) as well as keen senses to get an impressive passive perception score to autodetect things for you.
The reason phb beastmaster is important for poison is cooperation. A phb beastmaster can order their pet to go to sleep.
Any other milked beast will probably try to escape, fight with other animals or more. Some dms are nice but phb beastmaster is the only guarantee.
Also flying snake beastmaster gets extra poison damage unlike other options. (Probably part of why zentarim are fond of flying snakes.)
I'm actually going to revise my opinion on the topic, with a single build I can think of where PHB beastmaster is required and therefor better than the Tasha's revision.
Flying mounted archery. You pick a small race of your choice, grab a pteranodon (Medium creature with a fly speed), mount up and fly 300 feet into the air, grab mounted combatant then sharpshooter for feats. You keep diving up and down to enter/exit the 320ft range of shortbows and light crossbows and plink at enemies at maximum range while mounted combatant keeps your pet alive. You are outside the range of aoe spells, and redirect any attacks made at either of you, which will likely also have disadvantage because of the range.
Other than this build which only works in open air spaces though, the beastmaster's only other somewhat viable options is a cheap poison milking animal (or you could just befriend one and milk it while having an actual subclass) or finding an animal companion with +perception (or expertise, I would need to actually look to see if one has it) as well as keen senses to get an impressive passive perception score to autodetect things for you.
That build is one held action away from you and your pet dying ....
It only has 13 HP to start so it's incredibly weak. Once it's dead you take falling damage for 300ft.... So 20d6 or maximum fall damage. That's about 70 HP worth or instant death for most things at level 3.
Plus a long bow has a disadvantage distance of 600ft so 300ft means nothing.
I like the thought but if that's the best we can do for a PHB build I'm still not sold at all
The Mounted Combatant feat lets you redirect attacks to yourself rather than the mount, and it's out of range of any practical spellcasting enemies, you maintain your height at 320 ducking up and down during your turns, so slightly out of range of longbow normal range.
The advantages of this is the 60 foot fly speed mostly, that's a passive 3rd level spell that is generally considered to be good. It puts you at a speed that can outdo a lot of fliers, so you can midair kite out opponents while sniping and riding.
I'm not really going to pretend that the build is significantly viable, this can easily be replicated later on by using conjure animals either from yourself or a friendly druid. It is one of if not THE earliest way you can hit a 60 ft fly speed though, but it is reliant on the dm letting you find a dinosaur (which isn't actually that unreasonable given that they exist in a lot of D&D worlds). It also has the price tag of a custom made saddle on top of it too, which while likely not too important is worth noting.
That's fair... Once you hit Conjure Animals though your right it's pretty much out classes for the most part.
I appreciate you discussing the downsides honestly.
This does lock you into a feat and a small race which means you are giving up a fair amount of choice for this but it's interesting at least.
Yes Forgotten Realms does. Hence why I didn't say they don't exist there. That'd be daft. However not everyone plays in the Forgotten Realms. In fact many many groups play in homebrew settings.
So racial feature and a whole subclass are about equal in your opinion. I don't even know how to respond to that. It's just absurd.
A flying race has less opportunity to rework their strategy? I forgot that they have to fly all the time or sit out on an adventure ... oh wait they don't.
Yes because it's harder to change races than change functions for your beast.
I really don't know what to respond to stuff like that anymore. Your arguments contain less and less logic. I think this has gone long enough, I won't be replying anymore.
Unfortunately this is what I think they are going for.
I have found the ranger forum to be an echo chamber of defense of outdated design concepts and underwhelming features.
It's turning somewhat around at least though so thanks for contributing what you have so far!
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Epic boons are just one example. Cause of strahd has at least 2 types of boons. Magical tattoos, manual books(yes there are ways to let a beast read) dm or campaign specific boons like in AL. Ravinia symic mutation. Training. Devine blessings. Earned titles. Gone just for switching from beast of the land to sea.
I am seriously beginning to think you never play any fun adventures.
Also,If you complain about a ranger using his own money for healing and Resurrection I will report you to PETA. 😉 you sure like to find any excuse to complain don't you.
A Ranger's spell slot is a valuable resource most of the time affecting whole encounters or making combat turning choices. selfishly letting either companion die is a waste and planning on tasha's dieing is just silly and out of character for a beastmaster.
I just point out facts when they are presented.
Overall all of yours so far paint a pretty poor picture of PHB ranger if these are the "strengths"
I'm not sure why you would ever give the familiar/pet a boon in a game... especially if not all players have one.
Tattooing an animal would get PETA on you pretty fast as well....I wouldn't ever do it to an animal
Ains, we keep hovering over circumstantial little things that depend on things external to the subclass.
To heal, resurrect, etc... your creature, situations have to occur that are not considered in the subclass. Like having an ally who can do it, or a magic item, or whatever.
What the subclass tells you is what happens when it dies. And that mechanic is much more punish than the Tasha's variant.
If you manage to work around that punishment* using the specific circumstances of your game, good for you. But that doesn't make the punishment any less, nor does it improve the comparison to the other variant that doesn't punish you that way.
*I use the word punishment for lack of a better one. I'm not a native, and I couldn't think of another way to call that.
I'm actually going to revise my opinion on the topic, with a single build I can think of where PHB beastmaster is required and therefor better than the Tasha's revision.
Flying mounted archery. You pick a small race of your choice, grab a pteranodon (Medium creature with a fly speed), mount up and fly 300 feet into the air, grab mounted combatant then sharpshooter for feats. You keep diving up and down to enter/exit the 320ft range of shortbows and light crossbows and plink at enemies at maximum range while mounted combatant keeps your pet alive. You are outside the range of aoe spells, and redirect any attacks made at either of you, which will likely also have disadvantage because of the range.
Other than this build which only works in open air spaces though, the beastmaster's only other somewhat viable options is a cheap poison milking animal (or you could just befriend one and milk it while having an actual subclass) or finding an animal companion with +perception (or expertise, I would need to actually look to see if one has it) as well as keen senses to get an impressive passive perception score to autodetect things for you.
That build is one held action away from you and your pet dying ....
It only has 13 HP to start so it's incredibly weak. Once it's dead you take falling damage for 300ft.... So 20d6 or maximum fall damage. That's about 70 HP worth or instant death for most things at level 3.
Plus a long bow has a disadvantage distance of 600ft so 300ft means nothing.
I like the thought but if that's the best we can do for a PHB build I'm still not sold at all
This is a tangent, but the one build I have thought of where I would want to play a PHB Beastmaster is a Ranger / Shadow Sorcerer Multiclass.
Take the Summon Beast spell, and now I have a creature I can command with my bonus action + my companion that I command with my action + the hound of ill omen which acts on its own. Basically, I would only play a PHB Beastmaster if I wanted to ensure every part of my turn went into commanding three different animals to fight for me while I sit in the back.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
That's..... Pretty good!
I haven't thought of this option before but it's very interesting.
The Mounted Combatant feat lets you redirect attacks to yourself rather than the mount, and it's out of range of any practical spellcasting enemies, you maintain your height at 320 ducking up and down during your turns, so slightly out of range of longbow normal range.
The advantages of this is the 60 foot fly speed mostly, that's a passive 3rd level spell that is generally considered to be good. It puts you at a speed that can outdo a lot of fliers, so you can midair kite out opponents while sniping and riding.
I'm not really going to pretend that the build is significantly viable, this can easily be replicated later on by using conjure animals either from yourself or a friendly druid. It is one of if not THE earliest way you can hit a 60 ft fly speed though, but it is reliant on the dm letting you find a dinosaur (which isn't actually that unreasonable given that they exist in a lot of D&D worlds). It also has the price tag of a custom made saddle on top of it too, which while likely not too important is worth noting.
Forgotten realms specifically says there's a race of halflings that do just this.
And by taking other races than a flying one you have acquired a different and possibly better racial feature.
A beastmaster with a flight build can rework their strategy a flying race has less opportunity.
Oh yeah, itd be weird for sure. Definitely only a build I would play for a one-shot or something, lol
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Yes because it's harder to change races than change functions for your beast.
Congratulations to minoke and kaboom and others for at least considering potential instead of being close minded.
The trap however is most of the participants have rightly suggested, being too focused on one concept can come crashing down. There are ways to specialize and protect such builds but being able to adapt and find the fun and benefit elsewhere is also important. A build focused on one pillar is easily tumbled. This is why you want to know what your absolute points are and what your flexibility is.
The reason phb beastmaster is important for poison is cooperation. A phb beastmaster can order their pet to go to sleep.
Any other milked beast will probably try to escape, fight with other animals or more. Some dms are nice but phb beastmaster is the only guarantee.
Also flying snake beastmaster gets extra poison damage unlike other options. (Probably part of why zentarim are fond of flying snakes.)
That's fair... Once you hit Conjure Animals though your right it's pretty much out classes for the most part.
I appreciate you discussing the downsides honestly.
This does lock you into a feat and a small race which means you are giving up a fair amount of choice for this but it's interesting at least.
Unfortunately this is what I think they are going for.
I have found the ranger forum to be an echo chamber of defense of outdated design concepts and underwhelming features.
It's turning somewhat around at least though so thanks for contributing what you have so far!