Don't take dual wielder feat (Mage Slayer is a good Dex half feat), just take Two Weapon Fighting Style feat and use Scimitar/Shortsword. You will have 3 attacks at level 5 because of the Nick property (which doesn't use your bonus action) and will do more damage with Hunter's mark than if you have four attacks with Dual Wielder and no Hunter's Mark. Hunter's Mark will require you to use your bonus action at least every other turn (unless fighting something really big for your level). Using dual wielder feat will just clog your action economy.
Exactly. Mage Slayer indeed has become a very good feat and I believe it’s better than DW for a Ranger.
For the sake of comparison, Hunter’s Mark + three attacks has an avg DPR of 22.5. Four attacks using Dual Wielder has an avg DPR of 20.5.
I like Quarterstaff + Shillelagh even better with Ranger's 2 attacks at Level 4 and combined with Colossus Slayer (Hunter's feature):
Round 1: BA cast Hunter's mark; Attack #1: 2 handed quarterstaff + Hunter's Mark; Attack #2: 2 handed quarter staff + HM + Colossus slayer (assuming attack #1 hit) = average damage of 20.5 not including any ability bonus (plus with topple there's a chance that the target prone and the 2nd attack is made with Adv.)
Round 2: BA cast Shillelagh; Attack #1: Shillelagh + HM + CS; Attack #2: Shillelagh + HM = average 22.5 (again, not added any ability bonuses - plus with Shillelagh your spell casting ability is now the bonus for attack and damage, making it MORE likely that topple comes into play and bonus action is still available for something else.)
My level 5 Hunter Ranger with a +4 wisdom bonus and +1 Quarterstaff has a +8 to hit and +5 to damage. He can average 24.5 damage in Round 1 and 32.5 in Round 2. And the Topple has a Con save DC of 15.
This is quite good indeed. I believe you would be more powerful by going Beastmaster. Yeah, Hunters Mark would lose some space and your BA would be permanently taken, but the auto-prone effect of the Land Beast is insane. At level 5 you can afford to use your BA to conjure Shillelagh and give up one of your attacks to command your companion; this can also be used to cast Hunters Mark against a particular enemy you know will endure lots of damage. Second/third round onwards you’ll hit like a truck.
I believe with Nick you can have the beast use the bonus action as part of your attack action would be your attack, beast taking 2nd attack, bonus/nick your off hand attack, and still have a bonus for Hunters mark. So you could take two attacks, one beast auto-prone and utilize Hunters to add dps to your attacks. and if Hunters mark is active you take 2 attacks, one bones attack and beast attack in normal bonus?
Keep in mind that you only get one bonus action a turn so your options at level 5+ are: A) light weapon attack, light weapon attack, Nick light weapon attack, bonus action - either a spell (HM) or a beast command. The bonus action could go first not last. B) staff attack, staff attack, bonus action: spell ( HM/Shil.)/ beast command - you don’t get the extra Nick attack using the staff, yes with the right feat/fighting style the staff gets a bonus action attack but now you have 3 choices for the bonus action C) light weapon attack, beast command, Nick light weapon attack, bonus action - spell - HM? Colossus Slayer adds extra damage to any 1 of your attacks so it’s even across the choices.
Quarterstaff is a D8 weapon vs the D6 for the light weapons, so
option B averages 8 hp for the two staff attacks, if both hit, + 6 Hp for HM or 7+ ( 4+2+1+) for the beast strike (14 or 15 Hp depending on whether you go HM or BS.)
option C averages 6 hp for the 2 light weapon attacks + 7+ damage for the beast strike or 6 Hp for HM. (12 or 13 Hp)
option A averages ( all hitting) 3+3+3 hp + either 3+3+3 or 7 HP depending on if you go HM or Beast strike (18 hp HM or 16 HP BS)
your best option is the three light weapons but attacks with a lead off hunters mark even if your a beast master but option A commanding the beast is still a better option on average than either B or C.
But with Shillelagh the staff damage becomes a d10 and the modifier becomes spellcasting ability. That puts it equal to or slightly more than option A. Add in HM and Colossus Slayer (Hunter subclass) and you’re averaging (by your math) 5 + 3 (shillelagh + HM) x 2 attacks for 16, + 4 for colossus slayer. Plus your bonus action is still available if you need to move HM.
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"...at worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
Except you used the bonus action ( rd1) to cast either HM or Shil so you can’t count both as that would be 2 bonus actions and you only get 1. Further since the stat bonus is essentially variable and equal or worse (it’s rare for the wis bonus to be better than the Dex bonus) that along with colossus slayer can be dropped from the comparison as they apply equally to all three options. To se both Shil. And HM you need two rounds of setup before you have a free bonus action for what? You don’t get a bonus action attack u less you have the right feat, if your a beastmaster then yes you can now command your beast to strike. So - rd1) BA HM, staff atk, staff atk = 4+3+4+3 + 2(str b) = 14+ 2(SB), option A: BA HM, LAtk, L atk, Nick atk = 3+3+3+3+3+3+3(db) = 18+3(dB) rd2) BA Shil. Shil atk, Shil Atk = 5+3+5+3+2(WB) = 16+2(WB) vs option A: 18+3(DB) + Beast strike 4HP rd3) BA BS+ Shl + Shil = 8+8+2(WB) + 4 = 20+ 2(WB) vs option A: 22+ 3(DB)
option a wins every time, that doesn’t mean that shillelagh is a bad option, just not the optimal option.
The thing with comparisons like this is that you have to go back to the rules for the scientific method to get valid results - only one thing varies, everything else is controlled so it’s equal for all cases and can be dropped from consideration. So colossus slayer goes, stat bonuses go, relative miss chances go etc. just what are sequences of allowed attacks and what is the average damage of each attack. Compared properly a ranger’s best bet is as a beastmaster dual light weapons including a Nick weapon and activating hunter’s mark at the start of round 1. Is it perfect? No, lots can go wrong but the same can be said for the other options as well so on average the beastmaster with option A will do the most damage. Shillelagh should also be available for when you run into something resistant to nonmagical damage as now it’s the best bet but you don’t get a shil round 1 and HM round 2.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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I believe with Nick you can have the beast use the bonus action as part of your attack action would be your attack, beast taking 2nd attack, bonus/nick your off hand attack, and still have a bonus for Hunters mark. So you could take two attacks, one beast auto-prone and utilize Hunters to add dps to your attacks. and if Hunters mark is active you take 2 attacks, one bones attack and beast attack in normal bonus?
So nick give you some wiggle each round.
Keep in mind that you only get one bonus action a turn so your options at level 5+ are:
A) light weapon attack, light weapon attack, Nick light weapon attack, bonus action - either a spell (HM) or a beast command. The bonus action could go first not last.
B) staff attack, staff attack, bonus action: spell ( HM/Shil.)/ beast command - you don’t get the extra Nick attack using the staff, yes with the right feat/fighting style the staff gets a bonus action attack but now you have 3 choices for the bonus action
C) light weapon attack, beast command, Nick light weapon attack, bonus action - spell - HM?
Colossus Slayer adds extra damage to any 1 of your attacks so it’s even across the choices.
Quarterstaff is a D8 weapon vs the D6 for the light weapons, so
option B averages 8 hp for the two staff attacks, if both hit, + 6 Hp for HM or 7+ ( 4+2+1+) for the beast strike (14 or 15 Hp depending on whether you go HM or BS.)
option C averages 6 hp for the 2 light weapon attacks + 7+ damage for the beast strike or 6 Hp for HM. (12 or 13 Hp)
option A averages ( all hitting) 3+3+3 hp + either 3+3+3 or 7 HP depending on if you go HM or Beast strike (18 hp HM or 16 HP BS)
your best option is the three light weapons but attacks with a lead off hunters mark even if your a beast master but option A commanding the beast is still a better option on average than either B or C.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
But with Shillelagh the staff damage becomes a d10 and the modifier becomes spellcasting ability. That puts it equal to or slightly more than option A. Add in HM and Colossus Slayer (Hunter subclass) and you’re averaging (by your math) 5 + 3 (shillelagh + HM) x 2 attacks for 16, + 4 for colossus slayer. Plus your bonus action is still available if you need to move HM.
"...at worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
Except you used the bonus action ( rd1) to cast either HM or Shil so you can’t count both as that would be 2 bonus actions and you only get 1. Further since the stat bonus is essentially variable and equal or worse (it’s rare for the wis bonus to be better than the Dex bonus) that along with colossus slayer can be dropped from the comparison as they apply equally to all three options.
To se both Shil. And HM you need two rounds of setup before you have a free bonus action for what? You don’t get a bonus action attack u less you have the right feat, if your a beastmaster then yes you can now command your beast to strike. So -
rd1) BA HM, staff atk, staff atk = 4+3+4+3 + 2(str b) = 14+ 2(SB), option A: BA HM, LAtk, L atk, Nick atk = 3+3+3+3+3+3+3(db) = 18+3(dB)
rd2) BA Shil. Shil atk, Shil Atk = 5+3+5+3+2(WB) = 16+2(WB) vs option A: 18+3(DB) + Beast strike 4HP
rd3) BA BS+ Shl + Shil = 8+8+2(WB) + 4 = 20+ 2(WB) vs option A: 22+ 3(DB)
option a wins every time, that doesn’t mean that shillelagh is a bad option, just not the optimal option.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The thing with comparisons like this is that you have to go back to the rules for the scientific method to get valid results - only one thing varies, everything else is controlled so it’s equal for all cases and can be dropped from consideration. So colossus slayer goes, stat bonuses go, relative miss chances go etc. just what are sequences of allowed attacks and what is the average damage of each attack. Compared properly a ranger’s best bet is as a beastmaster dual light weapons including a Nick weapon and activating hunter’s mark at the start of round 1. Is it perfect? No, lots can go wrong but the same can be said for the other options as well so on average the beastmaster with option A will do the most damage. Shillelagh should also be available for when you run into something resistant to nonmagical damage as now it’s the best bet but you don’t get a shil round 1 and HM round 2.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.