I'm averse to the idea of continuing to update prior books with newer publications, because while I understand certain things should be fixed, that should be done with errata & sage advice compendium, if they made a mistake they shouldn't force you to pay for them to fix it. Similarly, I really don't like the concept of rebalancing older classes with Xanathar's as the base because what happens when the next book comes out and powercreeps Xanathar's? Are we going to have to rebalance everything around the newest book and fix the Xanathar subclasses and PHB again. I really don't like the idea of moving the concept of a balanced class away from the PHB, because while I enjoy playing card games like Yu-Gi-Oh & MTG, I really wouldn't like the amount of rules text and powercreep in those to be in D&D.
I'm averse to the idea of continuing to update prior books with newer publications, because while I understand certain things should be fixed, that should be done with errata & sage advice compendium, if they made a mistake they shouldn't force you to pay for them to fix it. Similarly, I really don't like the concept of rebalancing older classes with Xanathar's as the base because what happens when the next book comes out and powercreeps Xanathar's? Are we going to have to rebalance everything around the newest book and fix the Xanathar subclasses and PHB again. I really don't like the idea of moving the concept of a balanced class away from the PHB, because while I enjoy playing card games like Yu-Gi-Oh & MTG, I really wouldn't like the amount of rules text and powercreep in those to be in D&D.
I don’t think there will be continuing power creep, but yes, if they do add spells in the new book for the phb Ranger they should release a free eratta. I think the subclass style we saw in Xanathars in pretty much set in stone until 6e and I think it is a solid way to do it. I remember a thread a while back were I had a list of spells for the phb, let me see about digging it up.
I think trash is harsh; there's nothing that makes them especially bad or hard to play, the main issue is that some of the abilities don't really make a difference often enough. Beast Master and Hunter have also been a bit outshined by later sub-classes, though I still like regular Hunter for a ranged Colossus Slayer + Hunter's Mark combo, and I really like quite a few of the Ranger-specific spells (Cordon of Arrows, Ensnaring Strike, Hunter's Mark I already mentioned, Lightning Arrow, Conjure Volley if you get that far), they have quite a few spells that no-one else gets, plus a bunch that cross over with Druids (but few others). Part of their strength is definitely in having access to to a load of spells that others don't, or unique variations on similar spells that can be used in different ways.
They're definitely a class that favours preparation for a fight, setting traps and such if you can (with spells that are good for this), using stealth to surprise enemies and such, rather than the more straightforward Barbarians and Fighters who are all about the fight once it's underway. But you can still do respectable damage, take a fair amount of punishment, and have some control tricks up your sleeve for good measure.
Rangers also have a lot of good stuff in the Unearthed Arcana variant classes, which are due for proper release later this year I think (might have some additional/different changes), Hunter's Mark as standard is definitely my favourite; I don't think it's quite enough to fix how Beast Master plays on its own (probably still need a house rule or two), though it does have two new higher level pets for them, but it should make Rangers as a whole play a bit more smoothly, and lets you get more out of their weirder abilities.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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maybe trash is not the best word, but defintly one of the worst classes. again, this is just mechanically, and thematically they are very epic.
One of the worst at what though? For being a Ranger it's the best, and if that's what you want to play as then that's all that really matters 😝
There's some overlap with the Rogue Scout sub-class which can be a good fit for a more sneaky, strike from the shadows type "ranger", but for general rangering the Ranger is best. For straight up combat obviously it lags behind the straight up combat oriented classes like Barbarian and Fighter, but that shouldn't be surprising, and you can still stand and fight reasonably well if you need/want to. But the core of the class in combat is really the bag of tricks from spells, which you can complement with preparation when able. Mechanically it's most like a Paladin since both are half-casters without cantrips, but a Paladin is more of a "wade boldly into any situation and just make do" whereas the Ranger is more "lure enemies into an ambush and try to make best uses of your spells".
I do encourage a look at the UA changes; it's sad that D&D Beyond hasn't been adding UA class variants alongside other UA content, so you either have to homebrew the one you want or substitute features yourself as you play, but I think people generally underestimate the Ranger as a class, meanwhile those changes will make it even more competitive, assuming we get all of them (might even get some more) in the Tasha's book due later this year.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Why would you need to remove haste from one conclave to give it to another, there is duplication in other classes expanded spells lists.
On a slight shift in topic the level 20 capstone even with favor foe feels very lack luster. As it as been discussed in this thread and in others it many ranger abilities feel weak for the level at which they are provided and can too easily be replaced by stronger versions that appear in other classes thru multiclassing.
I mean it's not terrible; if you assume by level 20 you'd aim to have Wisdom +5 (if not higher with whichever tome boosts it or some other magic item or boost) then you're potentially adding +5 or more. As a damage bonus, sure, it's nothing much to write home about, but you can choose to use it on the attack roll which is far more important, as it can mean the difference between doing damage over doing none at all. Using it as a small damage bonus means you at least still get some use out of it even if both attack rolls were already good.
If you compare it to the War Domain Cleric Channel Divinity ability Divine Guidance (+10 to an attack roll) you're getting it every single turn for free, whereas the War Domain Cleric only gets a handful of uses per long rest.
I think part of the problem with level 20 comparisons is that the balance on the level 20 abilities is all over the place; Barbarian gets +4 STR and CON, Fighter gets a fourth attack, those are both great, but Bards and Sorcerers just get free Bardic Inspiration or some Sorcery Points back. It's a shame WotC haven't put a rebalance to those level 20 abilities in the UA, but a lot of campaigns will never get to level 20 anyway so these things rarely get used.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Why would you need to remove haste from one conclave to give it to another, there is duplication in other classes expanded spells lists.
On a slight shift in topic the level 20 capstone even with favor foe feels very lack luster. As it as been discussed in this thread and in others it many ranger abilities feel weak for the level at which they are provided and can too easily be replaced by stronger versions that appear in other classes thru multiclassing.
I am not aware of duplication in other subclasses, but if there is ok. The removal really has less to do with duplication and more with the fact that blink is a better fit for the Horizon Walker than haste.
I mean it's not terrible; if you assume by level 20 you'd aim to have Wisdom +5 (if not higher with whichever tome boosts it or some other magic item or boost) then you're potentially adding +5 or more. As a damage bonus, sure, it's nothing much to write home about, but you can choose to use it on the attack roll which is far more important, as it can mean the difference between doing damage over doing none at all. Using it as a small damage bonus means you at least still get some use out of it even if both attack rolls were already good.
If you compare it to the War Domain Cleric Channel Divinity ability Divine Guidance (+10 to an attack roll) you're getting it every single turn for free, whereas the War Domain Cleric only gets a handful of uses per long rest.
I think part of the problem with level 20 comparisons is that the balance on the level 20 abilities is all over the place; Barbarian gets +4 STR and CON, Fighter gets a fourth attack, those are both great, but Bards and Sorcerers just get free Bardic Inspiration or some Sorcery Points back. It's a shame WotC haven't put a rebalance to those level 20 abilities in the UA, but a lot of campaigns will never get to level 20 anyway so these things rarely get used.
I think that you nailed part of it, the fact is Wizards has very little feed back on capstones because no one plays at level 20.
I would say that the Barbarian, Druid, Artificer and Redemption Paladin are the only worthwhile capstones, 4 out ~20 is pretty bad.
I think that you nailed part of it, the fact is Wizards has very little feed back on capstones because no one plays at level 20.
I would say that the Barbarian, Druid, Artificer and Redemption Paladin are the only worthwhile capstones, 4 out ~20 is pretty bad.
Just an aside, but I actually just flat out capped my games at level 10, with the caveat that, if we keep playing, you get an ASI / feat every 25K experience points. Basically, you get post-level 20 rules at level 10, and ignore levels 11-20.
Is the Druid capstone really that good if you're not a Moon Druid? Lots of people say how good it is, but almost always in conjunction with Circle of the Moon. No one really talks about the capstone as a Land or Shepherd Druid.
I think part of the problem with level 20 comparisons is that the balance on the level 20 abilities is all over the place; Barbarian gets +4 STR and CON, Fighter gets a fourth attack, those are both great, but Bards and Sorcerers just get free Bardic Inspiration or some Sorcery Points back. It's a shame WotC haven't put a rebalance to those level 20 abilities in the UA, but a lot of campaigns will never get to level 20 anyway so these things rarely get used.
I wonder if that comes from some innate flaw in the design process or is that somehow part of "what makes DnD feel like DnD" that the designer were focused on, maybe a holdover from earlier editions that had duality weak start strong finish or strong start mediocre ending.
The bard capstone could have been something completely different and the whole gain inspiration on initiative could have been rolled into Font of Inspiration as a note gained at either 7th or 11th level. to have it see play.
Ranger definitely has some underwhelming abilities when it comes to things like favored foe, and they sort of trip over themselves when it comes to combat spells because some use concentration where concentration doesn't make sense.
My theory is that Paladin spells were given the concentration limitations to control some out of control interactions between smites, and that this was just thrown onto Ranger without really asking if that would be true for them as well.
Rangers aren't terribly weak compared to other melee classes, thanks to their spells. They could just get away with being able to do more without coming close to being overpowered. Like, they could have more spell slots or partial spell slot regen on a short rest.
I think that you nailed part of it, the fact is Wizards has very little feed back on capstones because no one plays at level 20.
I would say that the Barbarian, Druid, Artificer and Redemption Paladin are the only worthwhile capstones, 4 out ~20 is pretty bad.
Just an aside, but I actually just flat out capped my games at level 10, with the caveat that, if we keep playing, you get an ASI / feat every 25K experience points. Basically, you get post-level 20 rules at level 10, and ignore levels 11-20.
Is the Druid capstone really that good if you're not a Moon Druid? Lots of people say how good it is, but almost always in conjunction with Circle of the Moon. No one really talks about the capstone as a Land or Shepherd Druid.
I think that you nailed part of it, the fact is Wizards has very little feed back on capstones because no one plays at level 20.
I would say that the Barbarian, Druid, Artificer and Redemption Paladin are the only worthwhile capstones, 4 out ~20 is pretty bad.
Just an aside, but I actually just flat out capped my games at level 10, with the caveat that, if we keep playing, you get an ASI / feat every 25K experience points. Basically, you get post-level 20 rules at level 10, and ignore levels 11-20.
Is the Druid capstone really that good if you're not a Moon Druid? Lots of people say how good it is, but almost always in conjunction with Circle of the Moon. No one really talks about the capstone as a Land or Shepherd Druid.
I would not like that, lvl 11 are some of the best skills.
and yes, the druid capstone is still amazing even for non moon druids.
The ranger is very front-loaded in the exploration pillar of the game. It's not bad, per se, but I get why people are upset with it and find it lacking when compared to other classes.
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I'm averse to the idea of continuing to update prior books with newer publications, because while I understand certain things should be fixed, that should be done with errata & sage advice compendium, if they made a mistake they shouldn't force you to pay for them to fix it. Similarly, I really don't like the concept of rebalancing older classes with Xanathar's as the base because what happens when the next book comes out and powercreeps Xanathar's? Are we going to have to rebalance everything around the newest book and fix the Xanathar subclasses and PHB again. I really don't like the idea of moving the concept of a balanced class away from the PHB, because while I enjoy playing card games like Yu-Gi-Oh & MTG, I really wouldn't like the amount of rules text and powercreep in those to be in D&D.
I don’t think there will be continuing power creep, but yes, if they do add spells in the new book for the phb Ranger they should release a free eratta. I think the subclass style we saw in Xanathars in pretty much set in stone until 6e and I think it is a solid way to do it. I remember a thread a while back were I had a list of spells for the phb, let me see about digging it up.
I copied this, so the links may not work...
Hunter:
3rd Faerie Fire
5th Blindness/Deafness
9th Slow (alternatively take Haste from the the Horizon Walker, give them Blink)
13th Confusion
17th Hold Monster
Beastmaster:
3rd Find Familiar
5th Find Steed
9th Dominate Beast
13th Giant Insect
17th Insect Plague
they are mchanicly trash, but there so cool, that i play them anyway
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
I think trash is harsh; there's nothing that makes them especially bad or hard to play, the main issue is that some of the abilities don't really make a difference often enough. Beast Master and Hunter have also been a bit outshined by later sub-classes, though I still like regular Hunter for a ranged Colossus Slayer + Hunter's Mark combo, and I really like quite a few of the Ranger-specific spells (Cordon of Arrows, Ensnaring Strike, Hunter's Mark I already mentioned, Lightning Arrow, Conjure Volley if you get that far), they have quite a few spells that no-one else gets, plus a bunch that cross over with Druids (but few others). Part of their strength is definitely in having access to to a load of spells that others don't, or unique variations on similar spells that can be used in different ways.
They're definitely a class that favours preparation for a fight, setting traps and such if you can (with spells that are good for this), using stealth to surprise enemies and such, rather than the more straightforward Barbarians and Fighters who are all about the fight once it's underway. But you can still do respectable damage, take a fair amount of punishment, and have some control tricks up your sleeve for good measure.
Rangers also have a lot of good stuff in the Unearthed Arcana variant classes, which are due for proper release later this year I think (might have some additional/different changes), Hunter's Mark as standard is definitely my favourite; I don't think it's quite enough to fix how Beast Master plays on its own (probably still need a house rule or two), though it does have two new higher level pets for them, but it should make Rangers as a whole play a bit more smoothly, and lets you get more out of their weirder abilities.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
maybe trash is not the best word, but defintly one of the worst classes. again, this is just mechanically, and thematically they are very epic.
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
One of the worst at what though? For being a Ranger it's the best, and if that's what you want to play as then that's all that really matters 😝
There's some overlap with the Rogue Scout sub-class which can be a good fit for a more sneaky, strike from the shadows type "ranger", but for general rangering the Ranger is best. For straight up combat obviously it lags behind the straight up combat oriented classes like Barbarian and Fighter, but that shouldn't be surprising, and you can still stand and fight reasonably well if you need/want to. But the core of the class in combat is really the bag of tricks from spells, which you can complement with preparation when able. Mechanically it's most like a Paladin since both are half-casters without cantrips, but a Paladin is more of a "wade boldly into any situation and just make do" whereas the Ranger is more "lure enemies into an ambush and try to make best uses of your spells".
I do encourage a look at the UA changes; it's sad that D&D Beyond hasn't been adding UA class variants alongside other UA content, so you either have to homebrew the one you want or substitute features yourself as you play, but I think people generally underestimate the Ranger as a class, meanwhile those changes will make it even more competitive, assuming we get all of them (might even get some more) in the Tasha's book due later this year.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Why would you need to remove haste from one conclave to give it to another, there is duplication in other classes expanded spells lists.
On a slight shift in topic the level 20 capstone even with favor foe feels very lack luster. As it as been discussed in this thread and in others it many ranger abilities feel weak for the level at which they are provided and can too easily be replaced by stronger versions that appear in other classes thru multiclassing.
I mean it's not terrible; if you assume by level 20 you'd aim to have Wisdom +5 (if not higher with whichever tome boosts it or some other magic item or boost) then you're potentially adding +5 or more. As a damage bonus, sure, it's nothing much to write home about, but you can choose to use it on the attack roll which is far more important, as it can mean the difference between doing damage over doing none at all. Using it as a small damage bonus means you at least still get some use out of it even if both attack rolls were already good.
If you compare it to the War Domain Cleric Channel Divinity ability Divine Guidance (+10 to an attack roll) you're getting it every single turn for free, whereas the War Domain Cleric only gets a handful of uses per long rest.
I think part of the problem with level 20 comparisons is that the balance on the level 20 abilities is all over the place; Barbarian gets +4 STR and CON, Fighter gets a fourth attack, those are both great, but Bards and Sorcerers just get free Bardic Inspiration or some Sorcery Points back. It's a shame WotC haven't put a rebalance to those level 20 abilities in the UA, but a lot of campaigns will never get to level 20 anyway so these things rarely get used.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I am not aware of duplication in other subclasses, but if there is ok. The removal really has less to do with duplication and more with the fact that blink is a better fit for the Horizon Walker than haste.
I think that you nailed part of it, the fact is Wizards has very little feed back on capstones because no one plays at level 20.
I would say that the Barbarian, Druid, Artificer and Redemption Paladin are the only worthwhile capstones, 4 out ~20 is pretty bad.
Just an aside, but I actually just flat out capped my games at level 10, with the caveat that, if we keep playing, you get an ASI / feat every 25K experience points. Basically, you get post-level 20 rules at level 10, and ignore levels 11-20.
Is the Druid capstone really that good if you're not a Moon Druid? Lots of people say how good it is, but almost always in conjunction with Circle of the Moon. No one really talks about the capstone as a Land or Shepherd Druid.
I wonder if that comes from some innate flaw in the design process or is that somehow part of "what makes DnD feel like DnD" that the designer were focused on, maybe a holdover from earlier editions that had duality weak start strong finish or strong start mediocre ending.
The bard capstone could have been something completely different and the whole gain inspiration on initiative could have been rolled into Font of Inspiration as a note gained at either 7th or 11th level. to have it see play.
Ranger definitely has some underwhelming abilities when it comes to things like favored foe, and they sort of trip over themselves when it comes to combat spells because some use concentration where concentration doesn't make sense.
My theory is that Paladin spells were given the concentration limitations to control some out of control interactions between smites, and that this was just thrown onto Ranger without really asking if that would be true for them as well.
Rangers aren't terribly weak compared to other melee classes, thanks to their spells. They could just get away with being able to do more without coming close to being overpowered. Like, they could have more spell slots or partial spell slot regen on a short rest.
I would not like that, lvl 11 are some of the best skills.
and yes, the druid capstone is still amazing even for non moon druids.
" I would not like that, lvl 11 are some of the best skills."
11 is a shift into a new tier of play. There's a very good reason that most games end at this point - those "best skills" are part of that reason.
Are you familiar with the 3e EL6 rules? The same reasoning applies here. 3 to 10 are 5th Ed. "sweet spot"
Never heard of them, and I would argue that 5-12 is the sweet spot.
The ranger is very front-loaded in the exploration pillar of the game. It's not bad, per se, but I get why people are upset with it and find it lacking when compared to other classes.