Thank you Haravikk. I completely forgot to mention how much I love that extra little text on this spell. Using this to spring a trap is so satisfying. Trapper is a character archetype that never gets any love and it's a shame because it's huge part of the ranger's wheelhouse. You are a madman with the snare combo. I love it so much.
Hunter's mark being such a tidy and efficient damage package draws moths like a flame. I think the problem is jealousy. As they look at their cousin class, the paladin, and see the amazing single target damage and defenses they panic to find a way to replicate it. And to be clear I love hunter's mark and think a ranger should make liberal use of it. It's powerful while also being on flavor. I like cornerstone abilities/spells that do a lot of legwork when it comes to basic combat competence so that I can make ample decisions elsewhere in the build that have nothing to do with number crunching combat. But way too often the ranger boils down to hunter's mark optimization that has blinders to the utility, power and fun of its other options.
While not a social skill or illusion class, I think it's understated how much the ranger experience improves with a DM that is willing and able to create situations to use their multitude of utility options. The ranger is the best extra attack martial at doing things besides killing and actively rewards creative problem solving. The ranger can range from consistent and boring damage guy, to the skilled outdoorsman version of batman, and a lot of this has to do with the DM's scenarios and ability to riff with you.
I'll never pass up an opportunity to gush about spike growth. No save damage is very good, so I'm not surprised at all Frank. No save passive damage? Yes please.
There are so many new options for forced movement since Tasha's. I've got a hammer chucking swarmkeeper/battlemaster and a Dao Sorlock both with Crusher sketched out that abuse the heck out of spike growth. I love em.
1. If it is cast on an area containing creatures, do they automatically take damage, or just when they move?
2. If a creature takes any damage does it still need to take a wisdom throw to understand what did it to them, and this choose not to move my further?
I have always played it as...
1. Damage is only taken when a creature moves into or within, but out of, the area of difficult terrain that the spike growth makes.
2. I treat this kind of like an illusion, where once they interact with it it is no longer camouflaged form them. They become aware of it once taking damage. However! A really "fun" and "powerful" interpretation of the second part of the spell's description would be that they don't/can't notice the area, any square of the area, as hazardous unless they make the save, even if they take damage. So if they fail visual perception check after visual perception check, they might just keep walking through the area, taking damage after damage.
Any creature that can't see the area at the time the spell is cast must make a Wisdom (Perception) check against your spell save DC to recognize the terrain as hazardous before entering it.
I guess it's open to interpretation, but this perception check could very well be a square by square basis. Would that be too strong?! I've always assumed it is a "once you notice part of it, you notice all of it" kind of thing, but now I'm not sure. It seems like this could be visually camouflaged in a way that you would need to make the perception check for each patch of 5 feet a creature travels.
I think it would be a generous DM that allowed that reading.
My DM didn't, despite my pleas, so we threw in a fireball to force dex saves and he agreed that was movement 😊
Forced Movement doesn't trigger damage effects. Not even spiked growth.
It's one of it's downsides. Otherwise Druids would be terrifying with things like cantrips that pull people around and spiked growth being a low level spell. And there are plenty that wish it worked with forced movement.
Also in general for the thread. I want to point out something about the wording on spike growth. The perception check is before they enter the area. It in no way says that it hides it from them after they are in the area being effected (i.e. have taken damage from it). So it's a great trap that they don't see coming. But once they are inside of it it's not so hidden anymore.
However there is something to note. They declare how far they move first and then damage is assigned based upon that. So if they are in a hurry and move 30 feet. They don't get to stop after 5 or 10 feet just because they took the damage by RaW. they move the distance they declared for that movement. Which means they could move into the middle of it. Take several squares worth of damage. And then see the trap and have the choice of taking more damage or not to get back out. The way they get to stop at the edge of it by RaW is by making the perception check before they enter.
It doesn't exist. Forced movement works with Spiked Growth RAW. Dex saves from a fireball aren't movement at all, though.
One of the best ways to kill absolutely anything in the game is Spiked Growth + forced movement, if you have the party comp for it. Almost nothing resists or ignores its damage, so the hard part is forcing the movement.
Since this is the Ranger forum, I'll leave this here for y'all to ruminate on.
Dorf Dorfsson, Maker of the Finest Mead in Dorfton
Mountain Dwarf
Statline (point buy): Wis 17 Con 17 Dex 14 Str 10
ASIs: Crusher (Con), Telekinetic (Wis) -> Wis 18 Con 18 Dex 14 Str 10
Swarmkeeper (Underbumbles, which are Underdark bees, as everyone knows) L11
Druidic Warrior: Shillelagh, Magic Stone or Thorn Whip (take your pick of the two)
I think it would be a generous DM that allowed that reading.
My DM didn't, despite my pleas, so we threw in a fireball to force dex saves and he agreed that was movement 😊
Forced Movement doesn't trigger damage effects. Not even spiked growth.
It's one of it's downsides. Otherwise Druids would be terrifying with things like cantrips that pull people around and spiked growth being a low level spell. And there are plenty that wish it worked with forced movement.
Also in general for the thread. I want to point out something about the wording on spike growth. The perception check is before they enter the area. It in no way says that it hides it from them after they are in the area being effected (i.e. have taken damage from it). So it's a great trap that they don't see coming. But once they are inside of it it's not so hidden anymore.
However there is something to note. They declare how far they move first and then damage is assigned based upon that. So if they are in a hurry and move 30 feet. They don't get to stop after 5 or 10 feet just because they took the damage by RaW. they move the distance they declared for that movement. Which means they could move into the middle of it. Take several squares worth of damage. And then see the trap and have the choice of taking more damage or not to get back out. The way they get to stop at the edge of it by RaW is by making the perception check before they enter.
I’m still curious about this movement declaration idea. Can a character not stop moving once taking damage initially from spike growth it didn’t perceive? Would a character have to continue moving through spike growth, while taking damage, because the original intent was to move 25 feet?
I’m still curious about this movement declaration idea. Can a character not stop moving once taking damage initially from spike growth it didn’t perceive? Would a character have to continue moving through spike growth, while taking damage, because the original intent was to move 25 feet?
Whenever I've seen it used the DM usually rules that you can stop after five feet if you want to (maybe with a roll for distance if dashing), otherwise you're just inviting players and/or the DM to meta-game all of their movement as many moves of five feet at a time.
While Spike Growth can be combo'd for some fun effects, the intention really I think is to stop the enemy from moving any further, leaving them vulnerable to ranged attacks, or to force them to take damage if they want to close the distance. Of course if you can set it up at the bottom of a Greased slide, then you've got yourself a meat grinder.
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Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I think it would be a generous DM that allowed that reading.
My DM didn't, despite my pleas, so we threw in a fireball to force dex saves and he agreed that was movement 😊
Forced Movement doesn't trigger damage effects. Not even spiked growth.
It's one of it's downsides. Otherwise Druids would be terrifying with things like cantrips that pull people around and spiked growth being a low level spell. And there are plenty that wish it worked with forced movement.
Also in general for the thread. I want to point out something about the wording on spike growth. The perception check is before they enter the area. It in no way says that it hides it from them after they are in the area being effected (i.e. have taken damage from it). So it's a great trap that they don't see coming. But once they are inside of it it's not so hidden anymore.
However there is something to note. They declare how far they move first and then damage is assigned based upon that. So if they are in a hurry and move 30 feet. They don't get to stop after 5 or 10 feet just because they took the damage by RaW. they move the distance they declared for that movement. Which means they could move into the middle of it. Take several squares worth of damage. And then see the trap and have the choice of taking more damage or not to get back out. The way they get to stop at the edge of it by RaW is by making the perception check before they enter.
I’m still curious about this movement declaration idea. Can a character not stop moving once taking damage initially from spike growth it didn’t perceive? Would a character have to continue moving through spike growth, while taking damage, because the original intent was to move 25 feet?
Technically by raw. Once your in movement. Unless something forces you to stop. It happens so quickly because of the small amount of time turns take place in, you may not move all your movement at once. But you've set at least a portion of that into motion. You've done it and then you suffer consequences for that action if necessary only stopping sooner if forced to. It's not entirely realistic in some peoples minds and most DM's adjust it all the time and give players chances to change course and there is nothing wrong with that. But effectively in combat it's you rushing forward to do something else and not knowing about the danger until it's too late. Your not aware of the damage it's going to do until your already taking the damage and careful movement requires things like the disengage action to pull off because it draws your attention away.
If you need a way to picture it in your mind. think of it like your going to charge through a bush. Not pick your way through a bush. But charge through a bush. You don't make the perception save so you don't realize that it has thorns or is perhaps covering a second more dangerous bush so you just quickly shove your way through. Your automatically going to get scratched up and in your haste your going to be a decent way through before it even registers since your focused on getting at something or doing something on the other side of the bush or beating somebody else to the other side so you can cut them off. If the bush isn't enough to entangle you your likely going to shove right on through in your haste before "the damage" sets in for you.
Also keep in mind that how you move around and some of your reactions to things outside of combat are different from inside combat. So it's a lot easier to have DM's and others make the judgement call that you can stop before you get all the way in. But at the same time your focus isn't the same when your in combat. But Blundering into something dangerous is a real thing as well. Living in a desert with Cacti has taught me it's really easy to put yourself in a bad situation that can be painful if you just rush along. It's easy to end up in a cactus or or even a mass of cacti if your not paying attention and your in a hurry.
I'm looking for clarification, and not in any way trying to prove any side right or wrong. The only RAW I see is this from the combat section regarding movement. It says you can break up your move before and after your action and between attacks. Where do you see you can't move 5' at a time and see what kills you each step?
I'm looking for clarification, and not in any way trying to prove any side right or wrong. The only RAW I see is this from the combat section regarding movement. It says you can break up your move before and after your action and between attacks. Where do you see you can't move 5' at a time and see what kills you each step?
By Raw Nothing stops you from moving 5' at a time. But you'll notice. It also doesn't say anything about stopping the instant your affected by something either. Most things that stop your movement are even blatantly obvious such as a trap activating in a way that you can't move anymore, or are abilities that specifically stay they stop your movement when the right considitions are met. Such as with Sentinel. Sentinel actually shows to some extent that your movement to your already chosen location is not typically interrupted just because something takes place to you by the need to call it out in specificity that it does stop you if the AoO hits.
Spike Growth is basically a carpet covered in lego blocks; if you've ever stepped on one of those you know how quickly you can stop and be on high alert for your next step 😝
I think it's one of those classic cases of "up to the DM" though; mindless enemies like zombies would absolutely just continue through taking the full damage, but it seems reasonable that many enemies would try to stop as soon as they start taking damage unless they actively choose to continue anywway. Now the situation will determine how easily an enemy can actually come to a full stop; flat ground at normal walking speed? No problem, five feet should be plenty. Running full speed after the adventurers who just stole your trousers? Probably going to need at least 10-15 feet.
Regardless of whether an enemy continues and takes full damage, or stops and tries to go around instead, the caster of Spike Growth is still getting something out of the spell, as while the damage can be nasty, especially when combo'd, the real benefit is the area control. Even if you rule the first enemy completes their full movement, that doesn't mean that the next enemy will do the same after they've seen their friend's legs suddenly wood-chippered off, but stopping the rest from following you, keeping them at range, or forcing them to waste movement going around are all perfectly good outcomes as well.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
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Thank you Haravikk. I completely forgot to mention how much I love that extra little text on this spell. Using this to spring a trap is so satisfying. Trapper is a character archetype that never gets any love and it's a shame because it's huge part of the ranger's wheelhouse. You are a madman with the snare combo. I love it so much.
Hunter's mark being such a tidy and efficient damage package draws moths like a flame. I think the problem is jealousy. As they look at their cousin class, the paladin, and see the amazing single target damage and defenses they panic to find a way to replicate it. And to be clear I love hunter's mark and think a ranger should make liberal use of it. It's powerful while also being on flavor. I like cornerstone abilities/spells that do a lot of legwork when it comes to basic combat competence so that I can make ample decisions elsewhere in the build that have nothing to do with number crunching combat. But way too often the ranger boils down to hunter's mark optimization that has blinders to the utility, power and fun of its other options.
While not a social skill or illusion class, I think it's understated how much the ranger experience improves with a DM that is willing and able to create situations to use their multitude of utility options. The ranger is the best extra attack martial at doing things besides killing and actively rewards creative problem solving. The ranger can range from consistent and boring damage guy, to the skilled outdoorsman version of batman, and a lot of this has to do with the DM's scenarios and ability to riff with you.
Wow! when I look at DPR math using to-hit versus armor class, spike growth is even better.
I'll never pass up an opportunity to gush about spike growth. No save damage is very good, so I'm not surprised at all Frank. No save passive damage? Yes please.
There are so many new options for forced movement since Tasha's. I've got a hammer chucking swarmkeeper/battlemaster and a Dao Sorlock both with Crusher sketched out that abuse the heck out of spike growth. I love em.
Questions on Spike growth...
1. If it is cast on an area containing creatures, do they automatically take damage, or just when they move?
2. If a creature takes any damage does it still need to take a wisdom throw to understand what did it to them, and this choose not to move my further?
I have always played it as...
1. Damage is only taken when a creature moves into or within, but out of, the area of difficult terrain that the spike growth makes.
2. I treat this kind of like an illusion, where once they interact with it it is no longer camouflaged form them. They become aware of it once taking damage. However! A really "fun" and "powerful" interpretation of the second part of the spell's description would be that they don't/can't notice the area, any square of the area, as hazardous unless they make the save, even if they take damage. So if they fail visual perception check after visual perception check, they might just keep walking through the area, taking damage after damage.
Wait a minute!
I am having a mild excitement attack now!
I guess it's open to interpretation, but this perception check could very well be a square by square basis. Would that be too strong?! I've always assumed it is a "once you notice part of it, you notice all of it" kind of thing, but now I'm not sure. It seems like this could be visually camouflaged in a way that you would need to make the perception check for each patch of 5 feet a creature travels.
Thoughts?
I think it would be a generous DM that allowed that reading.
My DM didn't, despite my pleas, so we threw in a fireball to force dex saves and he agreed that was movement 😊
Forced Movement doesn't trigger damage effects. Not even spiked growth.
It's one of it's downsides. Otherwise Druids would be terrifying with things like cantrips that pull people around and spiked growth being a low level spell. And there are plenty that wish it worked with forced movement.
Also in general for the thread. I want to point out something about the wording on spike growth. The perception check is before they enter the area. It in no way says that it hides it from them after they are in the area being effected (i.e. have taken damage from it). So it's a great trap that they don't see coming. But once they are inside of it it's not so hidden anymore.
However there is something to note. They declare how far they move first and then damage is assigned based upon that. So if they are in a hurry and move 30 feet. They don't get to stop after 5 or 10 feet just because they took the damage by RaW. they move the distance they declared for that movement. Which means they could move into the middle of it. Take several squares worth of damage. And then see the trap and have the choice of taking more damage or not to get back out. The way they get to stop at the edge of it by RaW is by making the perception check before they enter.
Where is the RAW for the movement declaration?
It doesn't exist. Forced movement works with Spiked Growth RAW. Dex saves from a fireball aren't movement at all, though.
One of the best ways to kill absolutely anything in the game is Spiked Growth + forced movement, if you have the party comp for it. Almost nothing resists or ignores its damage, so the hard part is forcing the movement.
Since this is the Ranger forum, I'll leave this here for y'all to ruminate on.
Dorf Dorfsson, Maker of the Finest Mead in Dorfton
Mountain Dwarf
Statline (point buy): Wis 17 Con 17 Dex 14 Str 10
ASIs: Crusher (Con), Telekinetic (Wis) -> Wis 18 Con 18 Dex 14 Str 10
Swarmkeeper (Underbumbles, which are Underdark bees, as everyone knows) L11
Druidic Warrior: Shillelagh, Magic Stone or Thorn Whip (take your pick of the two)
I agree that dex save by Raw isn't movement, but realistically how could a group dodge a fireball without movement within a Spike growth?
Hence we house rule it as movement in our game
Yup, I understand. :)
I’m still curious about this movement declaration idea. Can a character not stop moving once taking damage initially from spike growth it didn’t perceive? Would a character have to continue moving through spike growth, while taking damage, because the original intent was to move 25 feet?
Whenever I've seen it used the DM usually rules that you can stop after five feet if you want to (maybe with a roll for distance if dashing), otherwise you're just inviting players and/or the DM to meta-game all of their movement as many moves of five feet at a time.
While Spike Growth can be combo'd for some fun effects, the intention really I think is to stop the enemy from moving any further, leaving them vulnerable to ranged attacks, or to force them to take damage if they want to close the distance. Of course if you can set it up at the bottom of a Greased slide, then you've got yourself a meat grinder.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Technically by raw. Once your in movement. Unless something forces you to stop. It happens so quickly because of the small amount of time turns take place in, you may not move all your movement at once. But you've set at least a portion of that into motion. You've done it and then you suffer consequences for that action if necessary only stopping sooner if forced to. It's not entirely realistic in some peoples minds and most DM's adjust it all the time and give players chances to change course and there is nothing wrong with that. But effectively in combat it's you rushing forward to do something else and not knowing about the danger until it's too late. Your not aware of the damage it's going to do until your already taking the damage and careful movement requires things like the disengage action to pull off because it draws your attention away.
If you need a way to picture it in your mind. think of it like your going to charge through a bush. Not pick your way through a bush. But charge through a bush. You don't make the perception save so you don't realize that it has thorns or is perhaps covering a second more dangerous bush so you just quickly shove your way through. Your automatically going to get scratched up and in your haste your going to be a decent way through before it even registers since your focused on getting at something or doing something on the other side of the bush or beating somebody else to the other side so you can cut them off. If the bush isn't enough to entangle you your likely going to shove right on through in your haste before "the damage" sets in for you.
Also keep in mind that how you move around and some of your reactions to things outside of combat are different from inside combat. So it's a lot easier to have DM's and others make the judgement call that you can stop before you get all the way in. But at the same time your focus isn't the same when your in combat. But Blundering into something dangerous is a real thing as well. Living in a desert with Cacti has taught me it's really easy to put yourself in a bad situation that can be painful if you just rush along. It's easy to end up in a cactus or or even a mass of cacti if your not paying attention and your in a hurry.
I'm looking for clarification, and not in any way trying to prove any side right or wrong. The only RAW I see is this from the combat section regarding movement. It says you can break up your move before and after your action and between attacks. Where do you see you can't move 5' at a time and see what kills you each step?
By Raw Nothing stops you from moving 5' at a time. But you'll notice. It also doesn't say anything about stopping the instant your affected by something either. Most things that stop your movement are even blatantly obvious such as a trap activating in a way that you can't move anymore, or are abilities that specifically stay they stop your movement when the right considitions are met. Such as with Sentinel. Sentinel actually shows to some extent that your movement to your already chosen location is not typically interrupted just because something takes place to you by the need to call it out in specificity that it does stop you if the AoO hits.
Spike Growth is basically a carpet covered in lego blocks; if you've ever stepped on one of those you know how quickly you can stop and be on high alert for your next step 😝
I think it's one of those classic cases of "up to the DM" though; mindless enemies like zombies would absolutely just continue through taking the full damage, but it seems reasonable that many enemies would try to stop as soon as they start taking damage unless they actively choose to continue anywway. Now the situation will determine how easily an enemy can actually come to a full stop; flat ground at normal walking speed? No problem, five feet should be plenty. Running full speed after the adventurers who just stole your trousers? Probably going to need at least 10-15 feet.
Regardless of whether an enemy continues and takes full damage, or stops and tries to go around instead, the caster of Spike Growth is still getting something out of the spell, as while the damage can be nasty, especially when combo'd, the real benefit is the area control. Even if you rule the first enemy completes their full movement, that doesn't mean that the next enemy will do the same after they've seen their friend's legs suddenly wood-chippered off, but stopping the rest from following you, keeping them at range, or forcing them to waste movement going around are all perfectly good outcomes as well.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.