So with the new Druidic Warrior fighting style introduced in TCoE, I'm seeing a lot of potential in a ranger playstyle that puts more emphasis into its spellcasting; Primal Savagery and Thorn Whip in particular come to mind, and maybe the classic Shillelagh as well. I can just picture someone playing using Druid's MI feat along with Druidic Warrior to get some added mileage from their wisdom stat. Primal Savagery for a heavy-hitting close combat strike, thorn whip for mid-range control, your trusty bow for long range, and your spells for controlling the battlefield.
I'm not saying it would, or even could usurp the classic archery playstyle, but I was wondering if anyone had any experience in trying to make a Wisdom heavy, or perhaps even a Pure WIS Ranger? It's probably not super viable, but it would definitely be fun in my opinion. Of course, I can always play Druid, but it's just an interesting idea to me.
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It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Hmm, I'd probably go shillelagh over primal savagery because it scales with extra attack and combines with polearm master for a nice 3 attack routine with the quarterstaff. I'm pretty confident a wisdom ranger is more than viable enough.
I've always liked the idea of throwing spell sniper on a thorn whip character. It would help turn thorn whip into an actual ranged option instead of the awkward 30 ft midrange, which seems valuable on a character that probably doesn't have the dex for archery. 60 foot thorn whip is sweet with spike growth as you can reach someone on the other side of the radius and then pull them into it. Spell sniper would also give you a third cantrip to really enforce the spellcaster vibe.
A pure wisdom ranger is way different than a druid and I love that it's so much easier to build now. Fey Wanderer is a natural fit if you want to infuse some social skills, but any ranger subclass could go down this path. Any particular subclasses you were thinking about?
I was thinking Swarmkeeper, personally. It has a cantrip built in, along with a lot of control-type spells. The swarm has a variety of uses beyond just extra damage as well.
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It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Yeah I love the swarmkeeper. Rich and full of character with a lot of sweet abilities. I highly value the swarmkeeper's versatility as well. Not having the same level of bonus damage as other rangers is more than made up for the intangibles that their other abilities add IMO
And while damage isn't your focus for choosing the class, you would really be pushing the spike growth+forced movement synergy too. Thorn Whip + swarmkeeper gets you up to 25 feet of forced movement, or 10d4 extra damage when dragging them over a spike growth. Since this is split into two movements and the swarmkeeper movement is in any horizontal direction you have a lot of control over your enemies. This will be great always, but in the context of spike growth it will really help you move creatures to as disadvantageous of a spot as possible instead of just doing the work for them to cross the spell.
I think this would be my build:
Race: Variant Human
1. Ranger 1. Polearm Master
2. Ranger 2. Fighting Style (Druidic Warrior): Shillelagh, Magic Stone
I would continue as a single class ranger and max out wisdom from here. I've chosen to pick up magic stone with druidic warrior because there are very few wisdom based cantrips that use attack rolls, and thorn whip was the only one I was interested in. Since I really want spell sniper on this build it meant I chose to pick up Thorn Whip with it. Magic Stone is a perfectly viable wisdom based ranged attack and scales with extra attack so I'm happy to have it on the build. I think going for something utility and/or RP based is a great option for the Magic Stone slot as well.
Longstrider is a spell I would be looking at picking up because it doubles the level 7 flight speed.
100% this is a great way to go. I personally love this idea combined with the new Beast Master pet options from Tasha's. They use your spell attack modifier for their attacks and your spell save for the few effects they have. There are plenty of spells that use the Ranger's wisdom modifier. Summon Beast also uses Spell Attack modifier so you could have 2 pets running around and still get your Shillelagh whacks.
I'm not sure it would be as good as a Sharpshooter build, especially later game. But it is absolutely viable.
Hadn't thought about the beastmaster companion and summon beast working off of your wisdom. That's a nice build idea for sure. Has too much use for the bonus action to get enough out of PAM though I think. Still 4 attacks a round is quite powerful and making it all key off of wisdom to hit is a big deal.
And yeah I love magic stone. This happens to be the perfect place for it because it scales with extra attack, a feature druids don't take advantage of. And yeah if the DM allows you to modify the range with a sling definitely pick one up. You'll probably only need it once and a while, but if it's allowed why not? A sling is so cheap.
Hadn't thought about the beastmaster companion and summon beast working off of your wisdom. That's a nice build idea for sure. Has too much use for the bonus action to get enough out of PAM though I think. Still 4 attacks a round is quite powerful and making it all key off of wisdom to hit is a big deal.
Yeah I wouldn't bother with PAM with this build. Great thing is that this doesn't require a feat although grabbing resilient con or warcaster is always good when you're talking about concentration spells. Late game the summon spells aren't going to be great for a Ranger because he only has 5th level slots. Still, it's good for the first 10-12 levels.
I would argue that if 25% of your damage is tied into a concentration spell that the beastmaster build does require at least one feat to boost concentration saves. If we're talking a shillelagh melee build, then I wouldn't be comfortable without both warcaster and proficiency in con saves. You're just gonna drop your spell way too often and way too quickly for it to perform consistently.
I feel like most rangers who aren't on a point buy system will eventually pick up War Caster anyway, right? And I'd say the summoning spells are still pretty nice if you can hold concentration for them, seeing as the ones before TCoE don't require an action or bonus action to command. You could easily Cast summon animals, command them to attack, and then prepare Shillelagh before running in. I do agree that polearm master is unnecessary though. If you were going to get Variant human just for the feat I would get War Caster, resilient, or maybe even Druid's Magic Initiate so you can get another spell slot and a few more cantrips. Hell, you could maybe even get the new feat and then use druidic warrior to grab Poison Spray, seeing as the feat specifically says any poison damage you roll rather than specifically a spell, ability, or item effect. It doesn't fix the CON save issue, but it's a start, and if your damage won't be resisted at all it's at least worth considering in my opinion, especially if you're going to be investing fully into Wisdom.
I feel like most rangers who aren't on a point buy system will eventually pick up War Caster anyway, right?
Yeah I guess so I just don't really factor in non-point buy characters when I talk about stats and ASI's. Just a matter of preference because 5e's bounded math is based on a character not being able to buy more than a 15 in a starting stat.
PAM isn't good on a beastmaster, but I think it's great on a shillelagh based Swarmkeeper without a regular bonus action to use. I LOVE the new poisoner feat. I'm not sure if Poison Spray is enough of a draw for me though. I'd rather have it on a moon druid that wildshapes into forms with nasty poisons.
Heheh. Orochimaru anyone? Would be so dope to be a snake master. I'm waiting to be able to play a 9th level moon druid that casts giant insect on a scorpion and then wildshapes into a giant scorpion themselves.
Heheh. Orochimaru anyone? Would be so dope to be a snake master. I'm waiting to be able to play a 9th level moon druid that casts giant insect on a scorpion and then wildshapes into a giant scorpion themselves.
Thorn Whip? Centipede flies out of your sleeve and wraps itself around the enemy and drags them to you. Mage hand is a less aggressive version of that. Shillelagh could be literally wrapping your fey centipedes around your quarterstaff or club and making them stick their legs out to add a magical, spiked flare to the blunt object. And of course you already know my conjured beast would be more centipedes.
Yeah that would be great. It would be fun to create tension between being a loving caretaker and being scary AF because of your centipede hoard.
I want to play a maritime swarmkeeper that controls a hoard of tiny crustaceans. Thorn whip would be giant strands of kelp and shillelagh would cause the quarterstaff to harden and form chitinous plating like a crab. Spike Growth would cause a huge patch of coral reef to erupt from the ground, shredding the enemy's shins.
The fact that you can flavor the swarm in so many ways is too cool.
So with the new Druidic Warrior fighting style introduced in TCoE, I'm seeing a lot of potential in a ranger playstyle that puts more emphasis into its spellcasting; Primal Savagery and Thorn Whip in particular come to mind, and maybe the classic Shillelagh as well. I can just picture someone playing using Druid's MI feat along with Druidic Warrior to get some added mileage from their wisdom stat. Primal Savagery for a heavy-hitting close combat strike, thorn whip for mid-range control, your trusty bow for long range, and your spells for controlling the battlefield.
I'm not saying it would, or even could usurp the classic archery playstyle, but I was wondering if anyone had any experience in trying to make a Wisdom heavy, or perhaps even a Pure WIS Ranger? It's probably not super viable, but it would definitely be fun in my opinion. Of course, I can always play Druid, but it's just an interesting idea to me.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Sounds fun!
Hmm, I'd probably go shillelagh over primal savagery because it scales with extra attack and combines with polearm master for a nice 3 attack routine with the quarterstaff. I'm pretty confident a wisdom ranger is more than viable enough.
I've always liked the idea of throwing spell sniper on a thorn whip character. It would help turn thorn whip into an actual ranged option instead of the awkward 30 ft midrange, which seems valuable on a character that probably doesn't have the dex for archery. 60 foot thorn whip is sweet with spike growth as you can reach someone on the other side of the radius and then pull them into it. Spell sniper would also give you a third cantrip to really enforce the spellcaster vibe.
A pure wisdom ranger is way different than a druid and I love that it's so much easier to build now. Fey Wanderer is a natural fit if you want to infuse some social skills, but any ranger subclass could go down this path. Any particular subclasses you were thinking about?
I was thinking Swarmkeeper, personally. It has a cantrip built in, along with a lot of control-type spells. The swarm has a variety of uses beyond just extra damage as well.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Yeah I love the swarmkeeper. Rich and full of character with a lot of sweet abilities. I highly value the swarmkeeper's versatility as well. Not having the same level of bonus damage as other rangers is more than made up for the intangibles that their other abilities add IMO
And while damage isn't your focus for choosing the class, you would really be pushing the spike growth+forced movement synergy too. Thorn Whip + swarmkeeper gets you up to 25 feet of forced movement, or 10d4 extra damage when dragging them over a spike growth. Since this is split into two movements and the swarmkeeper movement is in any horizontal direction you have a lot of control over your enemies. This will be great always, but in the context of spike growth it will really help you move creatures to as disadvantageous of a spot as possible instead of just doing the work for them to cross the spell.
I think this would be my build:
Race: Variant Human
1. Ranger 1. Polearm Master
2. Ranger 2. Fighting Style (Druidic Warrior): Shillelagh, Magic Stone
3. Ranger 3. Swarmkeeper
4. Ranger 4. Spell Sniper (Cleric/Druid): Thorn Whip
5. Ranger 5. Spike Growth
I would continue as a single class ranger and max out wisdom from here. I've chosen to pick up magic stone with druidic warrior because there are very few wisdom based cantrips that use attack rolls, and thorn whip was the only one I was interested in. Since I really want spell sniper on this build it meant I chose to pick up Thorn Whip with it. Magic Stone is a perfectly viable wisdom based ranged attack and scales with extra attack so I'm happy to have it on the build. I think going for something utility and/or RP based is a great option for the Magic Stone slot as well.
Longstrider is a spell I would be looking at picking up because it doubles the level 7 flight speed.
Wow, I had completely overlooked magic stone, that's actually a brilliant idea. Maybe pick up a sling for added range if the DM allows that?
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
100% this is a great way to go. I personally love this idea combined with the new Beast Master pet options from Tasha's. They use your spell attack modifier for their attacks and your spell save for the few effects they have. There are plenty of spells that use the Ranger's wisdom modifier. Summon Beast also uses Spell Attack modifier so you could have 2 pets running around and still get your Shillelagh whacks.
I'm not sure it would be as good as a Sharpshooter build, especially later game. But it is absolutely viable.
Hadn't thought about the beastmaster companion and summon beast working off of your wisdom. That's a nice build idea for sure. Has too much use for the bonus action to get enough out of PAM though I think. Still 4 attacks a round is quite powerful and making it all key off of wisdom to hit is a big deal.
And yeah I love magic stone. This happens to be the perfect place for it because it scales with extra attack, a feature druids don't take advantage of. And yeah if the DM allows you to modify the range with a sling definitely pick one up. You'll probably only need it once and a while, but if it's allowed why not? A sling is so cheap.
Yeah I wouldn't bother with PAM with this build. Great thing is that this doesn't require a feat although grabbing resilient con or warcaster is always good when you're talking about concentration spells. Late game the summon spells aren't going to be great for a Ranger because he only has 5th level slots. Still, it's good for the first 10-12 levels.
I would argue that if 25% of your damage is tied into a concentration spell that the beastmaster build does require at least one feat to boost concentration saves. If we're talking a shillelagh melee build, then I wouldn't be comfortable without both warcaster and proficiency in con saves. You're just gonna drop your spell way too often and way too quickly for it to perform consistently.
I feel like most rangers who aren't on a point buy system will eventually pick up War Caster anyway, right? And I'd say the summoning spells are still pretty nice if you can hold concentration for them, seeing as the ones before TCoE don't require an action or bonus action to command. You could easily Cast summon animals, command them to attack, and then prepare Shillelagh before running in.
I do agree that polearm master is unnecessary though. If you were going to get Variant human just for the feat I would get War Caster, resilient, or maybe even Druid's Magic Initiate so you can get another spell slot and a few more cantrips. Hell, you could maybe even get the new feat and then use druidic warrior to grab Poison Spray, seeing as the feat specifically says any poison damage you roll rather than specifically a spell, ability, or item effect. It doesn't fix the CON save issue, but it's a start, and if your damage won't be resisted at all it's at least worth considering in my opinion, especially if you're going to be investing fully into Wisdom.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Yeah I guess so I just don't really factor in non-point buy characters when I talk about stats and ASI's. Just a matter of preference because 5e's bounded math is based on a character not being able to buy more than a 15 in a starting stat.
PAM isn't good on a beastmaster, but I think it's great on a shillelagh based Swarmkeeper without a regular bonus action to use. I LOVE the new poisoner feat. I'm not sure if Poison Spray is enough of a draw for me though. I'd rather have it on a moon druid that wildshapes into forms with nasty poisons.
... Using it on druid wildshapes is something I had not considered. I'm writing that down for a snake-focused wildshape druid later on.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Heheh. Orochimaru anyone? Would be so dope to be a snake master. I'm waiting to be able to play a 9th level moon druid that casts giant insect on a scorpion and then wildshapes into a giant scorpion themselves.
Then you could make baby giant scorpions.
From Scorpion Breeding on the website www.scorpionworlds.com:
I better roll that one up as a female.
I was thinking Centipedes.
Thorn Whip? Centipede flies out of your sleeve and wraps itself around the enemy and drags them to you. Mage hand is a less aggressive version of that. Shillelagh could be literally wrapping your fey centipedes around your quarterstaff or club and making them stick their legs out to add a magical, spiked flare to the blunt object. And of course you already know my conjured beast would be more centipedes.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Yeah that would be great. It would be fun to create tension between being a loving caretaker and being scary AF because of your centipede hoard.
I want to play a maritime swarmkeeper that controls a hoard of tiny crustaceans. Thorn whip would be giant strands of kelp and shillelagh would cause the quarterstaff to harden and form chitinous plating like a crab. Spike Growth would cause a huge patch of coral reef to erupt from the ground, shredding the enemy's shins.
The fact that you can flavor the swarm in so many ways is too cool.
Tiny crab rave? Im in.
It's ok Ranger, you'll always be cool to me.. Unless druid gets another use for its wild shape charges.
Yeah druidic warrior, PAM and shillelagh surely would make for a fun stick knight.
I would also recommend 1 level dip in nature cleric for heavy armor.