A player in my group sent me this message. Any suggestions?
"I have been wanting to play a divine scout . a charectors who could get to where an enemy is and attack and I thought that might be what a ranger is. I haven't worked out how it might."
Honestly, I don't really understand the message, and not only because of the English. What does he mean by "get to where an enemy is and attack"? Sneak into an enemy camp? Track an enemy down? I don't really understand what "Divine Scout" means either.
A Rogue or a Ranger is probably the right class but other than that I can't really offer much help without understanding the question. Notice that after Tasha's release, both the Ranger class is very similar to a Scout (subclass) Rogue in many aspects, so taking either could work. With Expertise in Stealth/Survival or both, you can really do either of the things I wrote above. It doesn't really offer any divine features though, that may require multiclassing into a Cleric/Paladin, or just be roleplayed in some way.
Same here, I am not sure what he/she wants to play. Current suggestion:
Gloom Stalker: very good at sneak on the enemy in darkness
Horizon Walker: highly mobile ranger class
Monster Slayer
Way of Shadow monk
any rogue class
rogue class + ranger multi-class
rogue class + Way of Shadow monk multi-class
Way of Shadow monk + ranger multi-class
rogue class + Way of Shadow monk + ranger multi-class
All of them fit the description of "a character who could sneak on an enemy is and attack". You need to ask what else do he/she wants to do in-combat and out-of-combat.
I agree. The message is confusing. We are talking today about re-building the character. Thanks for the suggestions so far. We have played 13 sessions and his character is 9th level. He just voiced his belief that the Ranger is too weak and unbalanced. I told him a lot of it has to do with his build not the class being "bad".
He wanted to keep Archery and Hunter. Also wants Hoard Breaker. But he knew the campaign was an Underdark campaign but made some odd choices. He's not a new player. Been playing DnD for many years.
There are a few problems here. They're obvious in both builds, actually.
1. Low Dex for a 9th level ranger using a bow. The Dex affects your attack modifier, damage modifier, AC, the very common saves and initiative. If he thinks his character is weak, that's definitely a major factor in that. Not that a high Dex is a must, but leaving it at 16/17 means you're staying behind. 2. Feats. Not that feats are bad, but they're not making you stronger if you only take them for taste. Fey Teleportation is definitely an example of that - +1 to Int, which doesn't make this character any stronger in combat, and a small teleportation ability... yeah. In your character, Sharpshooter is surely a great feat but MAM isn't so. Using the ASI to get to Dex 18 will give you all the benefits above, plus better stealth. With Studded Leather armour he'll have 16 AC which isn't that bad for a ranged character. Most Rogues won't ever have more than 17 without magic items and they're fine. With MAM and Scale Mail he'll only have 17 which is a mere +1 (not to say that the bonus isn't meaningful, but the other benefits of 18 Dex overweight it IMO) or 18 with Half Plate, the best AC he can get with Medium Armour. Personally, I'd at least look for a +1 Dex feat. The best options are either Piercer or Elven Accuracy. The latter is only good if he gains an advantage often. Having said that, if you really just want a stronger character, you should probably take a normal ASI and increase an ability score. For his version, he'll need both to round the 16 on Dex to 18. For your version, he can take +1 Dex and +1 Con to round them both up. 3. Hunter is... an OK subclass. The problem with it is that it doesn't really offer many flavours. The abilities are often technical, like disadvantage on attacks against you, some more damage dice, one more attack and so on. It can be strong but not as exciting as other subclasses.
Changing the Favoured Enemy and Natural Explorer's terrain are good changes to feel more impactful, but both features don't actually offer that much in most campaigns, which is what always has been a problem with rangers. I'd recommend you take a look at Tasha's changes. You don't have to use them, obviously, but you should at least consider them.
Lastly, spells. All of the spells in both builds are concentration spells. This means you only have one of them running at a time. Look into taking a few non-concentration spells that can help. Indeed, almost all useful ranger spells are concentration spells, sadly, but surely you can find at least one useful spell, or review your spells, at the very least.
How well is he using "Minor Illusion" as a player? If he isn't very good with it, it may be better to play a wood elf. Also, consider letting him play an Aereni elf instead of a normal one.
I agree with FireCat5. Having +4 in Dex modifier is better than the Medium Armor Master. I am not sure if he is aware of it. Increasing the Dex modifier by 1 is the same as increasing the dice size by 1 (i.e. d8 to d10) on the damaging side. On top of that, it also increases the attack roll. That is too many concentration spells. Some good non-concentration are Absorb Elements (decrease some of the spell damage), Cure Wounds (it is better than Healing Spirit when the character only has with +2 wis), Goodberry (if you allow the character to eat the 10 berries as a free action, it would do more healing than Cure Wounds. However, it may not able to heal the Unconscious person)
Hunter is fine. Some people find it lacks flavour and dulls while others (i.e. me) love it. Hoard Breaker is fine just make sure there is a good amount of mobs in the combat (low amount of mob loss on the action-economy anyways).
If the player likes Favoured Enemy and Natural Explorer, then let him use them. However, if he doesn't like one or both of them, consider letting use Tash's optional rule. It is the same for Primeval Awareness and Hide in Plain Sight. If he wants to switch out, let him do it.
One thing I like about Ranger is that it requires a good thought on the build because it could go horribly wrong when building badly.
The original Fey Teleportation would have been better spent on the new Fey Touched feat, since he would get to use Misty step, and another spell (recommend Hunter's Mark) and get them as extra slots and known spells. Also a +1 to Wisdom which long term has more utility than the +1 to Intelligence. I would drop the original point buy to 13 and put those two point buys into Con to even it out. (Con -> 14, Wis -> 13 +1 for Fey Touched ->14). Going this route would lose you +1 to AC and you would have to switch to Breastplate to keep the stealth.
A couple of other thoughts. I like the use of Zephyr Strike as a get out of jail card. The archery build with higher level spells is nice.
One other weird route would be to get rid of the sharpshooter and go with Gunner to get an additional +1 to Dex and the close range ranged attacks without disadvantage. With an 18 you could drop down to Studded Leather. With Hunter's Mark going from Fey Touched he might not need the Sharpshooter for damage. With ranged attacks going at close rangeyou could rearrange strength now and put 2 of those points into Constitution (Str 12->10, Con 13 -> 14).
So talking tonight he explained he did not take Underdark as his Nature Explorer a because he sees the Underdark as it was presented in 1st edition being unknowable so he shouldn't be able to have the skills given by that ability.
He explained that he wants a character who can (almost like a bounty hunter) target a person or item and use magic to divine information about it than stealthily kill the target or steal the item. We talked about ways to build such a character.
He chose Sailor for his background because he mistakenly thought the Moonshae Isles were immeadiately adjacent to where we are playing The Silver Marches.
He said he focused on building up INT instead of Dex because he believes Survival is useless without Nature.
Many choices are based on, as he said, wanting to shove his 1st edition beliefs and habits into 5th edition.
All in all, it was an intetesting talk. He told me he did not take part in Session 0 discussions about setting, character development, and storyline concept because he was focused on his character's high concept of being a sailor Marine rather than worrying about stats and min/max. Which slowly developed into his belief that the Ranger is unbalanced and weak.
So talking tonight he explained he did not take Underdark as his Nature Explorer a because he sees the Underdark as it was presented in 1st edition being unknowable so he shouldn't be able to have the skills given by that ability.
He explained that he wants a character who can (almost like a bounty hunter) target a person or item and use magic to divine information about it than stealthily kill the target or steal the item. We talked about ways to build such a character.
He chose Sailor for his background because he mistakenly thought the Moonshae Isles were immeadiately adjacent to where we are playing The Silver Marches.
He said he focused on building up INT instead of Dex because he believes Survival is useless without Nature.
Many choices are based on, as he said, wanting to shove his 1st edition beliefs and habits into 5th edition.
All in all, it was an intetesting talk. He told me he did not take part in Session 0 discussions about setting, character development, and storyline concept because he was focused on his character's high concept of being a sailor Marine rather than worrying about stats and min/max. Which slowly developed into his belief that the Ranger is unbalanced and weak.
"target a person or item and use magic to divine information about it than stealthily kill the target or steal the item." Monster Slayer has this feature: Hunter’s Sense - "At 3rd level, you gain the ability to peer at a creature and magically discern how best to hurt it. As an action, choose one creature you can see within 60 feet of you. You immediately learn whether the creature has any damage immunities, resistances, or vulnerabilities and what they are. If the creature is hidden from divination magic, you sense that it has no damage immunities, resistances, or vulnerabilities." Does this close enough to the divine information idea? Also, maybe multi-class at least 2 levels into rogue to help out on the stealthily kill part.
Depending on the spell choice, some Ranger build would be fine with +2 or +3 Wis while others prefer at least +4 Wis.
Aereni wood elf has additional Expertise skill and it will help him out.
There is nothing wrong with focusing on the character's concept and not to min/max a character build. However, a player needs to accept that the min/max character will bestronger.
There are two builds as a suggestion (I am sure there are more builds that supports the concept):
suggestion build one:
Choice Aereni wood elf
Start with Rogue for the extra skill.
3 levels in Rogue and 6 levels in Ranger
take Scout and Monster Slayer for the subclass
some initial skills suggestions for the character concept: Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Acrobatics, Investigation. Do not pick Survival and Nature because Scout subclass will provide it.
build feature:
11 skills and 5 Expertise including Survival and Nature
able to read the enemy any damage immunities, resistances, or vulnerabilities for the divine information concept
can use the bonus action to hide and support the stealthily-kill concept
sneak attack help to build on the stealthily-kill concept too.
suggestion build two (this build require more thought on spell and stats choice):
Choice Aereni wood elf or Aereni high elf (see step 6 for reasoning)
Start with Rogue for the extra skill.
3 levels in Rogue and 6 levels in Ranger
take Arcane Trickster and Monster Slayer for the subclass
some initial skills suggestions for the character concept: Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Acrobatics, Investigation Survival and Nature
spell choice: not every Arcane Trickster spell requires high INT and not every Ranger spell requires high WIS. So if he chooses Arcane Trickster spell that requires high INT then don't choose any Ragner spell that requires high WIS. Then, have INT as the second-highest ability instead of WIS and vice versa.
Do not recommend picking any range damage cantrips such as firebolt. He is better off using the bow.
build feature:
9 skills and 3 Expertise
able to read the enemy any damage immunities, resistances, or vulnerabilities for the divine information concept
can use the bonus action to hide and support the stealthily-kill concept
sneak attack help to build on the stealthily-kill concept too.
Can use mage hand to steal an item from 30 ft as a bonus action.
more low-level spell slot. (keep in mind he can use Arcane Trickster spell slot to cast Ranger spell and vice versa.)
People can buy the Aereni elf (Elves of Aerenal) for $4 USD in dndbeyond without buying the whole WAYFINDER'S GUIDE TO EBERRON book.
I once asked a DM about if my LVL 6 gnome Ranger could use the Bow as an Improvised music instrument, and he allowed me to get some practice on it. After some days performing some tries, it seemed pretty awesome how delightfuly I rolled a Nat 20 to make a rabbit being attracted to my music.
Thanks to everyone for lending advice. You all went above and beyond to help. I have shared your ideas with the player but he is resistant to wanting to make any changes, which is fine. I told him that all I want is for him to enjoy playing his character. He is considering changes a few things but wants to continue with the concept he designed in the beginning. He does now realize that the Silver Marches and the Moonshae Isles are not the same places, so that's good I guess. :) I think he realizes now that Ranger might not be the class for him and is considering playing a Rogue in the future. Again, thank you all very much!
Trying to build a character in 5e based on thoughts on how characters worked in 1, 2, or 3e is really dangerous and has a tendency to make them very weak. Even worse basing it on a concept for which there is no mechanism in the game gets even more challenging.
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A player in my group sent me this message. Any suggestions?
"I have been wanting to play a divine scout . a charectors who could get to where an enemy is and attack and I thought that might be what a ranger is. I haven't worked out how it might."
A hunter ranger would do it well at level 7.
Any ranger could do it well if they used the Zephyr Strike spell from Xanathar’s Guide to Everything.
A swashbuckler rogue would do it well also.
Honestly, I don't really understand the message, and not only because of the English. What does he mean by "get to where an enemy is and attack"? Sneak into an enemy camp? Track an enemy down? I don't really understand what "Divine Scout" means either.
A Rogue or a Ranger is probably the right class but other than that I can't really offer much help without understanding the question. Notice that after Tasha's release, both the Ranger class is very similar to a Scout (subclass) Rogue in many aspects, so taking either could work. With Expertise in Stealth/Survival or both, you can really do either of the things I wrote above. It doesn't really offer any divine features though, that may require multiclassing into a Cleric/Paladin, or just be roleplayed in some way.
Varielky
Same here, I am not sure what he/she wants to play.
Current suggestion:
All of them fit the description of "a character who could sneak on an enemy is and attack".
You need to ask what else do he/she wants to do in-combat and out-of-combat.
I agree. The message is confusing. We are talking today about re-building the character. Thanks for the suggestions so far. We have played 13 sessions and his character is 9th level. He just voiced his belief that the Ranger is too weak and unbalanced. I told him a lot of it has to do with his build not the class being "bad".
He wanted to keep Archery and Hunter. Also wants Hoard Breaker. But he knew the campaign was an Underdark campaign but made some odd choices. He's not a new player. Been playing DnD for many years.
This is the character he has now:
https://ddb.ac/characters/18760377/sBI9pI
And here is the character I told him he might consider switching over to, not exactly, but with "better" choices for a Ranger in the Underdark.
https://ddb.ac/characters/42972822/pIMIRm
There are a few problems here. They're obvious in both builds, actually.
1. Low Dex for a 9th level ranger using a bow. The Dex affects your attack modifier, damage modifier, AC, the very common saves and initiative. If he thinks his character is weak, that's definitely a major factor in that. Not that a high Dex is a must, but leaving it at 16/17 means you're staying behind.
2. Feats. Not that feats are bad, but they're not making you stronger if you only take them for taste. Fey Teleportation is definitely an example of that - +1 to Int, which doesn't make this character any stronger in combat, and a small teleportation ability... yeah. In your character, Sharpshooter is surely a great feat but MAM isn't so. Using the ASI to get to Dex 18 will give you all the benefits above, plus better stealth. With Studded Leather armour he'll have 16 AC which isn't that bad for a ranged character. Most Rogues won't ever have more than 17 without magic items and they're fine. With MAM and Scale Mail he'll only have 17 which is a mere +1 (not to say that the bonus isn't meaningful, but the other benefits of 18 Dex overweight it IMO) or 18 with Half Plate, the best AC he can get with Medium Armour.
Personally, I'd at least look for a +1 Dex feat. The best options are either Piercer or Elven Accuracy. The latter is only good if he gains an advantage often. Having said that, if you really just want a stronger character, you should probably take a normal ASI and increase an ability score. For his version, he'll need both to round the 16 on Dex to 18. For your version, he can take +1 Dex and +1 Con to round them both up.
3. Hunter is... an OK subclass. The problem with it is that it doesn't really offer many flavours. The abilities are often technical, like disadvantage on attacks against you, some more damage dice, one more attack and so on. It can be strong but not as exciting as other subclasses.
Changing the Favoured Enemy and Natural Explorer's terrain are good changes to feel more impactful, but both features don't actually offer that much in most campaigns, which is what always has been a problem with rangers. I'd recommend you take a look at Tasha's changes. You don't have to use them, obviously, but you should at least consider them.
Lastly, spells. All of the spells in both builds are concentration spells. This means you only have one of them running at a time. Look into taking a few non-concentration spells that can help. Indeed, almost all useful ranger spells are concentration spells, sadly, but surely you can find at least one useful spell, or review your spells, at the very least.
Varielky
How well is he using "Minor Illusion" as a player? If he isn't very good with it, it may be better to play a wood elf. Also, consider letting him play an Aereni elf instead of a normal one.
I agree with FireCat5. Having +4 in Dex modifier is better than the Medium Armor Master. I am not sure if he is aware of it. Increasing the Dex modifier by 1 is the same as increasing the dice size by 1 (i.e. d8 to d10) on the damaging side. On top of that, it also increases the attack roll.
That is too many concentration spells. Some good non-concentration are Absorb Elements (decrease some of the spell damage), Cure Wounds (it is better than Healing Spirit when the character only has with +2 wis), Goodberry (if you allow the character to eat the 10 berries as a free action, it would do more healing than Cure Wounds. However, it may not able to heal the Unconscious person)
Hunter is fine. Some people find it lacks flavour and dulls while others (i.e. me) love it. Hoard Breaker is fine just make sure there is a good amount of mobs in the combat (low amount of mob loss on the action-economy anyways).
If the player likes Favoured Enemy and Natural Explorer, then let him use them. However, if he doesn't like one or both of them, consider letting use Tash's optional rule. It is the same for Primeval Awareness and Hide in Plain Sight. If he wants to switch out, let him do it.
One thing I like about Ranger is that it requires a good thought on the build because it could go horribly wrong when building badly.
The original Fey Teleportation would have been better spent on the new Fey Touched feat, since he would get to use Misty step, and another spell (recommend Hunter's Mark) and get them as extra slots and known spells. Also a +1 to Wisdom which long term has more utility than the +1 to Intelligence. I would drop the original point buy to 13 and put those two point buys into Con to even it out. (Con -> 14, Wis -> 13 +1 for Fey Touched ->14). Going this route would lose you +1 to AC and you would have to switch to Breastplate to keep the stealth.
A couple of other thoughts. I like the use of Zephyr Strike as a get out of jail card. The archery build with higher level spells is nice.
One other weird route would be to get rid of the sharpshooter and go with Gunner to get an additional +1 to Dex and the close range ranged attacks without disadvantage. With an 18 you could drop down to Studded Leather. With Hunter's Mark going from Fey Touched he might not need the Sharpshooter for damage. With ranged attacks going at close rangeyou could rearrange strength now and put 2 of those points into Constitution (Str 12->10, Con 13 -> 14).
So talking tonight he explained he did not take Underdark as his Nature Explorer a because he sees the Underdark as it was presented in 1st edition being unknowable so he shouldn't be able to have the skills given by that ability.
He explained that he wants a character who can (almost like a bounty hunter) target a person or item and use magic to divine information about it than stealthily kill the target or steal the item. We talked about ways to build such a character.
He chose Sailor for his background because he mistakenly thought the Moonshae Isles were immeadiately adjacent to where we are playing The Silver Marches.
He said he focused on building up INT instead of Dex because he believes Survival is useless without Nature.
Many choices are based on, as he said, wanting to shove his 1st edition beliefs and habits into 5th edition.
All in all, it was an intetesting talk. He told me he did not take part in Session 0 discussions about setting, character development, and storyline concept because he was focused on his character's high concept of being a sailor Marine rather than worrying about stats and min/max. Which slowly developed into his belief that the Ranger is unbalanced and weak.
"target a person or item and use magic to divine information about it than stealthily kill the target or steal the item."
Monster Slayer has this feature: Hunter’s Sense - "At 3rd level, you gain the ability to peer at a creature and magically discern how best to hurt it. As an action, choose one creature you can see within 60 feet of you. You immediately learn whether the creature has any damage immunities, resistances, or vulnerabilities and what they are. If the creature is hidden from divination magic, you sense that it has no damage immunities, resistances, or vulnerabilities."
Does this close enough to the divine information idea?
Also, maybe multi-class at least 2 levels into rogue to help out on the stealthily kill part.
Depending on the spell choice, some Ranger build would be fine with +2 or +3 Wis while others prefer at least +4 Wis.
Aereni wood elf has additional Expertise skill and it will help him out.
There is nothing wrong with focusing on the character's concept and not to min/max a character build. However, a player needs to accept that the min/max character will be stronger.
There are two builds as a suggestion (I am sure there are more builds that supports the concept):
suggestion build one:
build feature:
suggestion build two (this build require more thought on spell and stats choice):
build feature:
People can buy the Aereni elf (Elves of Aerenal) for $4 USD in dndbeyond without buying the whole WAYFINDER'S GUIDE TO EBERRON book.
I once asked a DM about if my LVL 6 gnome Ranger could use the Bow as an Improvised music instrument, and he allowed me to get some practice on it.
After some days performing some tries, it seemed pretty awesome how delightfuly I rolled a Nat 20 to make a rabbit being attracted to my music.
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
Thanks to everyone for lending advice. You all went above and beyond to help. I have shared your ideas with the player but he is resistant to wanting to make any changes, which is fine. I told him that all I want is for him to enjoy playing his character. He is considering changes a few things but wants to continue with the concept he designed in the beginning. He does now realize that the Silver Marches and the Moonshae Isles are not the same places, so that's good I guess. :) I think he realizes now that Ranger might not be the class for him and is considering playing a Rogue in the future. Again, thank you all very much!
Trying to build a character in 5e based on thoughts on how characters worked in 1, 2, or 3e is really dangerous and has a tendency to make them very weak. Even worse basing it on a concept for which there is no mechanism in the game gets even more challenging.