How does the Gloomstalker Ranger compare to a Rogue? Both are sneaky Dex classes, although rangers all have spells of course. They seem very similar, and I'm thinking about making a Gloomstalker instead of a Rogue but I'm not sure (I hate multiclassing)
Do you want to play a sneaky character? both classes/subclasses CAN be sneaky if you build them that way. Obviously the gloomstalker is focused on that. I agree that it depends on what style of game you want to play. Magic or no magic? Skills expertise or skills proficient? Relies more on other party members or supports other party members more? Your race/species choice could make a huge difference too, because of the darkvision thing.
Rogue Expertise in stealth provides likely better always on skill for sneaking. If you go Scout your exploration skills will likely be above a Ranger. Cunning action allows you to get out of trouble if you get in to far No spells to supplement your skill set (unless you go arcane trickster) Backstab is a reliable one hit a round damage Evasion is wonderful, intelligence is a poor save, Wisdom saves at 15th is a long way off
Gloom Stalker Stealth skill likely poorer than rogue unless you choose to expertise it using Tasha's features, or skill expert but... Invisible in the dark. Rogue just can't meet this. Super strong. Particularly for an archer build. Never leave the dark. Numerous spells to supplement your very good skill set and make you much more than your skills (pass without trace is an obvious one) Favored Foe/Hunter's Mark provides reliable ways to get damage. On an archer build firing from the dark should exceed rogue for damage per round Dex saves but no evasion. Strength saves are highly useful for the secondary group of saves. Wisdom saves at 7th is easy to get to. If you add resilient to improve concentration you can have all three primary saving throws possibly by 8th level. Without cunning action some issues if you get in too deep while exploring.
I am currently playing a gloom stalker, but dearly love playing rogues. The archer gloom stalker is just so damn good though. Specifically, when you get in melee in the dark the enemy turns on a light or runs away. When you hit them from the dark with bow shots they have very little they can do besides take cover. If you can see them and them not you it can just get not fair for the enemy.
I am currently playing a gloomstalker that started with two rogue levels. It’s really fun. Archery style, I just picked up the Elven Accuracy feat and will test it this evening.
Rogue Expertise in stealth provides likely better always on skill for sneaking. If you go Scout your exploration skills will likely be above a Ranger. Cunning action allows you to get out of trouble if you get in to far No spells to supplement your skill set (unless you go arcane trickster) Backstab is a reliable one hit a round damage Evasion is wonderful, intelligence is a poor save, Wisdom saves at 15th is a long way off
Gloom Stalker Stealth skill likely poorer than rogue unless you choose to expertise it using Tasha's features, or skill expert but... Invisible in the dark. Rogue just can't meet this. Super strong. Particularly for an archer build. Never leave the dark. Numerous spells to supplement your very good skill set and make you much more than your skills (pass without trace is an obvious one) Favored Foe/Hunter's Mark provides reliable ways to get damage. On an archer build firing from the dark should exceed rogue for damage per round Dex saves but no evasion. Strength saves are highly useful for the secondary group of saves. Wisdom saves at 7th is easy to get to. If you add resilient to improve concentration you can have all three primary saving throws possibly by 8th level. Without cunning action some issues if you get in too deep while exploring.
I am currently playing a gloom stalker, but dearly love playing rogues. The archer gloom stalker is just so damn good though. Specifically, when you get in melee in the dark the enemy turns on a light or runs away. When you hit them from the dark with bow shots they have very little they can do besides take cover. If you can see them and them not you it can just get not fair for the enemy.
Gloomstalker will get two attacks at lvl 5. Rogue has sneak attack. So, the best choice (imho) is to start as a Gloomstalker up to lvl 5, then multi into rogue (scout or thief). Best of both worlds. Super sneaky with sneak attack at longbow range! The ultimate sniper.
Doesn't sneak attack mean that Rogues do much more damage than a Ranger can? It seems to most comments on internet that a scout rogue is better at being a ranger than the actual ranger class, which makes the Gloomstalker interesting since it's a rogue-like ranger
Depends on how you handle the math. Hunter's Mark makes up for sneak at low and middle levels, and extra attack more than makes up for it. Then later on you get serious damage from spells.
What a Scout can do better is get expertise in Ranger skills, but in Combat that only affects Stealth and the Gloom Stalker is invisible in the dark.
Doesn't sneak attack mean that Rogues do much more damage than a Ranger can? It seems to most comments on internet that a scout rogue is better at being a ranger than the actual ranger class, which makes the Gloomstalker interesting since it's a rogue-like ranger
You should run the math for yourself. Sneak attack scales every two levels a little bit. A ranger’s damage output goes up in bigger jumps. Rogues have zero AoE damage. Rangers are the best martial class a dealing AoE.
Scouts get expertise in nature and survival. People love that. Rangers have huge exploration tools that surpass just expertise in those two skills, in my opinion, through other abilities and spells. Plus they can have the same expertise situationally. Rangers also share their exploration with the entire group. Rogues are more loners than rangers.
Gloomstalker will get two attacks at lvl 5. Rogue has sneak attack. So, the best choice (imho) is to start as a Gloomstalker up to lvl 5, then multi into rogue (scout or thief). Best of both worlds. Super sneaky with sneak attack at longbow range! The ultimate sniper.
or start with Rogue then start to multi-class at lv2 all the way to level 6. Exchanging 1 level late on the extra attack for an extra skill. Inquisitive is also good too for the multi-classing.
I'd go with Gloomstalker, because I love the sub class - you can make up for any perceived skill deficiency by using a feat for Skills expert (one new proficiency, and expertise and a choice of +1 to any of your stats).
You're sneaky (assuming you choose Stealth as a base skill), you are invisible in the dark (with 90ft of dark vision if you choose a race with it at base level), and any loss in damage by not having sneak is made up for with the power of your magic
You might answer your own question by simply deciding if you want to cast spells or not. I mean, even a fighter would be a "sneaky archer"
It sounds like you want to be a sneaky archer, because of the Gloom Stalker mention. As much as I love the ranger class, it does rely on its spells in many ways. If you don't envision using spells for damage, exploration, stealth, utility, or battlefield control, I would suggest you look at a rogue.
From a playstyle perspective, consider what will give more options in a given round. Rogue basically boils down to shoot, then hide or disengage. Ranger lets you do a ton more because you get spells. Setting aside considerations of raw damage output, what would be more fun to play?
To me personally, a straight roque archer might be the most boring possible class in the entire game, other than champion fighter. I like having to make interesting decisions each round, so straight ranger would fit better. But I am not anyone else - it's a subjective thing.
You could build a Gloom Stalker and just call it a rogue. Then flavor the spells as Batman or Darkwing Duck style mechanical effects.
Ensnaring Strike is bolas.
Spike Growth are caltrops.
Fog Cloud is a smoke bomb.
Hail of Thorns is that thing when an archer knocks two arrows and shoots targets standing next to one another.
Pass Without Trace is a smoke bomb.
Just pick spells that don't feature talking to or conjuring animals or anything like that. If you are playing mostly in a city see if your DM will allow you to take the home brew favored terrain of "city/urban" for natural explorer.
Tasha's ranger optional replacement abilities might give you more of a rogue feel as well.
An Important question to ask is what kind of campaign are you expecting to play in? Are you expecting to be in the underark, dungeons, or semi darkened places alot where Darkvision will be used. Or are you going to be doing a lot of daylight scouting and sneaking in above ground areas or during the natural parts of the day? Because that can affect the choice alot. Gloomstalker loses a fair bit in the second environment while it excells in the first.
For me it depends on what style of play I'm wanting to do. Gloomstalker has the potential to do bonkers damage the minute you hit 3. Rogue has similar potential but it's literally 1 shot vs the 2 from Gloomstalker. Gloomstalker also gets hunters mark so it kinda competes against rogue right away for damage even on a hit.
That said, rogues are more fun out of combat for the expertise skills, and if you even just take a low int arcane trickster you can still have a lot of fun with it. Familiar, cool spells, etc. Ranger gets cool summons down the road so there's that.
Honestly If i know the campaign is going to at least 12 I go 5 Ranger Gloomstalker and 7 Rogue Arcane Trickster for all kinds of flavor and burst damage. This is usually my ranged sharpshooter/hand crossbow crossbow expert build.
Rogue Expertise in stealth provides likely better always on skill for sneaking. If you go Scout your exploration skills will likely be above a Ranger. Cunning action allows you to get out of trouble if you get in to far No spells to supplement your skill set (unless you go arcane trickster) Backstab is a reliable one hit a round damage Evasion is wonderful, intelligence is a poor save, Wisdom saves at 15th is a long way off
Gloom Stalker Stealth skill likely poorer than rogue unless you choose to expertise it using Tasha's features, or skill expert but... Invisible in the dark. Rogue just can't meet this. Super strong. Particularly for an archer build. Never leave the dark. Numerous spells to supplement your very good skill set and make you much more than your skills (pass without trace is an obvious one) Favored Foe/Hunter's Mark provides reliable ways to get damage. On an archer build firing from the dark should exceed rogue for damage per round Dex saves but no evasion. Strength saves are highly useful for the secondary group of saves. Wisdom saves at 7th is easy to get to. If you add resilient to improve concentration you can have all three primary saving throws possibly by 8th level. Without cunning action some issues if you get in too deep while exploring.
I am currently playing a gloom stalker, but dearly love playing rogues. The archer gloom stalker is just so damn good though. Specifically, when you get in melee in the dark the enemy turns on a light or runs away. When you hit them from the dark with bow shots they have very little they can do besides take cover. If you can see them and them not you it can just get not fair for the enemy.
Here's the thing, seems like every thread on internet is telling me that Gloomstalker sucks after level 5 and should just Multiclass into Rogue. There's barely any info or suggestions on single class Gloomstalker Ranger, it's not recommended for some reason. So hearing that Gloomstalker can out-stealth-archer the Rogue to the point where it's almost OP is the complete opposite of what I was expecting!
Rogue Expertise in stealth provides likely better always on skill for sneaking. If you go Scout your exploration skills will likely be above a Ranger. Cunning action allows you to get out of trouble if you get in to far No spells to supplement your skill set (unless you go arcane trickster) Backstab is a reliable one hit a round damage Evasion is wonderful, intelligence is a poor save, Wisdom saves at 15th is a long way off
Gloom Stalker Stealth skill likely poorer than rogue unless you choose to expertise it using Tasha's features, or skill expert but... Invisible in the dark. Rogue just can't meet this. Super strong. Particularly for an archer build. Never leave the dark. Numerous spells to supplement your very good skill set and make you much more than your skills (pass without trace is an obvious one) Favored Foe/Hunter's Mark provides reliable ways to get damage. On an archer build firing from the dark should exceed rogue for damage per round Dex saves but no evasion. Strength saves are highly useful for the secondary group of saves. Wisdom saves at 7th is easy to get to. If you add resilient to improve concentration you can have all three primary saving throws possibly by 8th level. Without cunning action some issues if you get in too deep while exploring.
I am currently playing a gloom stalker, but dearly love playing rogues. The archer gloom stalker is just so damn good though. Specifically, when you get in melee in the dark the enemy turns on a light or runs away. When you hit them from the dark with bow shots they have very little they can do besides take cover. If you can see them and them not you it can just get not fair for the enemy.
Here's the thing, seems like every thread on internet is telling me that Gloomstalker sucks after level 5 and should just Multiclass into Rogue. There's barely any info or suggestions on single class Gloomstalker Ranger, it's not recommended for some reason. So hearing that Gloomstalker can out-stealth-archer the Rogue to the point where it's almost OP is the complete opposite of what I was expecting!
Most people get too caught up in the idea of "Optimization" and listening to people's lists and guides without actually looking and understanding for themselves. There are definitely games and settings where the gloomstalker is extremely powerful because there are only a few things that actually work against it and not everybody knows what they are. But since it's a ranger and an Archer it's not actually a slouch even when the gloom stalker portion is toned back by only intermittent usage and the Ranger is a strong base class despite some of the flaws that people have with certain aspects of it.
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How does the Gloomstalker Ranger compare to a Rogue? Both are sneaky Dex classes, although rangers all have spells of course. They seem very similar, and I'm thinking about making a Gloomstalker instead of a Rogue but I'm not sure (I hate multiclassing)
I can recommend the Gloomstalker.
Mine is more effective than our swashbuckler rogue at doing scouting.
It depends what you're after, the ranger is more effective in battle, but the rogue does get more skills overall.
If you take the skills expert feat, you can get close to matching the rogue though
Do you want to play a sneaky character? both classes/subclasses CAN be sneaky if you build them that way. Obviously the gloomstalker is focused on that. I agree that it depends on what style of game you want to play. Magic or no magic? Skills expertise or skills proficient? Relies more on other party members or supports other party members more? Your race/species choice could make a huge difference too, because of the darkvision thing.
Rogue
Expertise in stealth provides likely better always on skill for sneaking. If you go Scout your exploration skills will likely be above a Ranger.
Cunning action allows you to get out of trouble if you get in to far
No spells to supplement your skill set (unless you go arcane trickster)
Backstab is a reliable one hit a round damage
Evasion is wonderful, intelligence is a poor save, Wisdom saves at 15th is a long way off
Gloom Stalker
Stealth skill likely poorer than rogue unless you choose to expertise it using Tasha's features, or skill expert but...
Invisible in the dark. Rogue just can't meet this. Super strong. Particularly for an archer build. Never leave the dark.
Numerous spells to supplement your very good skill set and make you much more than your skills (pass without trace is an obvious one)
Favored Foe/Hunter's Mark provides reliable ways to get damage. On an archer build firing from the dark should exceed rogue for damage per round
Dex saves but no evasion. Strength saves are highly useful for the secondary group of saves. Wisdom saves at 7th is easy to get to. If you add resilient to improve concentration you can have all three primary saving throws possibly by 8th level.
Without cunning action some issues if you get in too deep while exploring.
I am currently playing a gloom stalker, but dearly love playing rogues. The archer gloom stalker is just so damn good though. Specifically, when you get in melee in the dark the enemy turns on a light or runs away. When you hit them from the dark with bow shots they have very little they can do besides take cover. If you can see them and them not you it can just get not fair for the enemy.
I am currently playing a gloomstalker that started with two rogue levels. It’s really fun. Archery style, I just picked up the Elven Accuracy feat and will test it this evening.
You're killing me, Smalls.
Gloomstalker will get two attacks at lvl 5. Rogue has sneak attack. So, the best choice (imho) is to start as a Gloomstalker up to lvl 5, then multi into rogue (scout or thief). Best of both worlds. Super sneaky with sneak attack at longbow range! The ultimate sniper.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
Doesn't sneak attack mean that Rogues do much more damage than a Ranger can? It seems to most comments on internet that a scout rogue is better at being a ranger than the actual ranger class, which makes the Gloomstalker interesting since it's a rogue-like ranger
Depends on how you handle the math. Hunter's Mark makes up for sneak at low and middle levels, and extra attack more than makes up for it. Then later on you get serious damage from spells.
What a Scout can do better is get expertise in Ranger skills, but in Combat that only affects Stealth and the Gloom Stalker is invisible in the dark.
You should run the math for yourself. Sneak attack scales every two levels a little bit. A ranger’s damage output goes up in bigger jumps. Rogues have zero AoE damage. Rangers are the best martial class a dealing AoE.
Scouts get expertise in nature and survival. People love that. Rangers have huge exploration tools that surpass just expertise in those two skills, in my opinion, through other abilities and spells. Plus they can have the same expertise situationally. Rangers also share their exploration with the entire group. Rogues are more loners than rangers.
or start with Rogue then start to multi-class at lv2 all the way to level 6. Exchanging 1 level late on the extra attack for an extra skill.
Inquisitive is also good too for the multi-classing.
he doesn't want to multiclass.
I'd go with Gloomstalker, because I love the sub class - you can make up for any perceived skill deficiency by using a feat for Skills expert (one new proficiency, and expertise and a choice of +1 to any of your stats).
You're sneaky (assuming you choose Stealth as a base skill), you are invisible in the dark (with 90ft of dark vision if you choose a race with it at base level), and any loss in damage by not having sneak is made up for with the power of your magic
You might answer your own question by simply deciding if you want to cast spells or not. I mean, even a fighter would be a "sneaky archer"
It sounds like you want to be a sneaky archer, because of the Gloom Stalker mention. As much as I love the ranger class, it does rely on its spells in many ways. If you don't envision using spells for damage, exploration, stealth, utility, or battlefield control, I would suggest you look at a rogue.
From a playstyle perspective, consider what will give more options in a given round. Rogue basically boils down to shoot, then hide or disengage. Ranger lets you do a ton more because you get spells. Setting aside considerations of raw damage output, what would be more fun to play?
To me personally, a straight roque archer might be the most boring possible class in the entire game, other than champion fighter. I like having to make interesting decisions each round, so straight ranger would fit better. But I am not anyone else - it's a subjective thing.
You could build a Gloom Stalker and just call it a rogue. Then flavor the spells as Batman or Darkwing Duck style mechanical effects.
Ensnaring Strike is bolas.
Spike Growth are caltrops.
Fog Cloud is a smoke bomb.
Hail of Thorns is that thing when an archer knocks two arrows and shoots targets standing next to one another.
Pass Without Trace is a smoke bomb.
Just pick spells that don't feature talking to or conjuring animals or anything like that. If you are playing mostly in a city see if your DM will allow you to take the home brew favored terrain of "city/urban" for natural explorer.
Tasha's ranger optional replacement abilities might give you more of a rogue feel as well.
An Important question to ask is what kind of campaign are you expecting to play in? Are you expecting to be in the underark, dungeons, or semi darkened places alot where Darkvision will be used. Or are you going to be doing a lot of daylight scouting and sneaking in above ground areas or during the natural parts of the day? Because that can affect the choice alot. Gloomstalker loses a fair bit in the second environment while it excells in the first.
For me it depends on what style of play I'm wanting to do. Gloomstalker has the potential to do bonkers damage the minute you hit 3. Rogue has similar potential but it's literally 1 shot vs the 2 from Gloomstalker.
Gloomstalker also gets hunters mark so it kinda competes against rogue right away for damage even on a hit.
That said, rogues are more fun out of combat for the expertise skills, and if you even just take a low int arcane trickster you can still have a lot of fun with it. Familiar, cool spells, etc. Ranger gets cool summons down the road so there's that.
Honestly If i know the campaign is going to at least 12 I go 5 Ranger Gloomstalker and 7 Rogue Arcane Trickster for all kinds of flavor and burst damage. This is usually my ranged sharpshooter/hand crossbow crossbow expert build.
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Here's the thing, seems like every thread on internet is telling me that Gloomstalker sucks after level 5 and should just Multiclass into Rogue. There's barely any info or suggestions on single class Gloomstalker Ranger, it's not recommended for some reason. So hearing that Gloomstalker can out-stealth-archer the Rogue to the point where it's almost OP is the complete opposite of what I was expecting!
Getting level 7 Wisdom Saving Throw proficiency is pretty amazing.
Most people get too caught up in the idea of "Optimization" and listening to people's lists and guides without actually looking and understanding for themselves. There are definitely games and settings where the gloomstalker is extremely powerful because there are only a few things that actually work against it and not everybody knows what they are. But since it's a ranger and an Archer it's not actually a slouch even when the gloom stalker portion is toned back by only intermittent usage and the Ranger is a strong base class despite some of the flaws that people have with certain aspects of it.