A. Disagree. I still think Gloom is better, at level 8 Gloom has an Wisdom save, ASI, a spell known, a 2nd level slot, 5 ft of movement, climbing and swimming speed, favored foe is now a d6, and Land's Stride. B. Also when I look at multiclassing i do the following. I assess my current level and the next one or a few. So I look at level 8 as being one away from level 9 which is 3rd level spells. Going into fighter means possibly giving up on 3rd level spells. This way of looking at multiclassing comes up more when looking at the full casters, but its still important.
In general I am very happy with the damage that my Rangers do, and I don't think they need help there. I would not give up those 6-8th level features for a little more damage. The Ranger can use Summon Beast to close the difference or even just provide a help action to a friend which can also close the damage difference.
But hey I understand if you analyze it differently. Its certainly close and each side has merit.
Sean, at L3 you are just getting the basic subclass features notice the gloomstalker doesn’t get the wisdom proficiency until later either. Giving any martial class wisdom save proficiency at L 6/7 is going to make it stronger by taking away one of its greatest weaknesses - poor wisdom saves even if you have no stat bonus you have +3 to the save which is a big help. Trying to move it to L3 is strawhorse troll.
You're not getting the point. Let's say you take Gloomstalker to 5. Okay, that's where you're at now, and for the next three levels...
Option 1: Fighter BM 3
You gain an additional fighting style, Second Wind, Action Surge, and Battle Master maneuvers
Option 2: Gloomstalker +3 more levels
You gain +5 walking speed, proficiency in wisdom saves, an ASI
Is option 1 a stronger or weaker choice?
I think Elfdope (see above) is on to something with the spells. Not only do you get more spells and more spell slots (1st and 2nd level), along with everything else you mentioned, you are even closer to 3rd level spells and spell slots! To each their own, but a few more points of average damage over an entire day of adventuring is in no way shape or form a good substitute for 3rd level ranger spells, in my mind anyway. On top of that, as a single martial class at levels 5 through 10 rangers are one of the hardest hitting options available over an adventuring day.
It's a lot more than just extra damage, and the extra damage is a LOT more than a few. Precision Strike alone is adding a ton of damage, plus you get all the effects.
It's important to say again, I am not saying going straight Gloomstalker is bad or weak. And if you want to be more spell-casty, then that's the way to do it. I'm disagreeing with the thesis of the OP, "multiclassing gloomstalker weakens it." It surely does not.
Yeah. Our mileage may vary. 10,000 variables and all that. But a few maneuver dice and action surge, when stretched out over three, five, or even seven battles, averages out to a few extra points of damage per round. It sounds like we agree that neither are hard and fast good or bad, it’s more direction, role, and fun.
18 Dex + Longbow + Sharpshooter: Average hit = 18.5 damage. That's what precision strike adds every time you turn a miss into a hit (less if you want battle field control). You get 4 dice per short rest. Probably a short rest every 2-3 battles, maybe 3-4 rounds per fight. Add an action surge in there each short rest, and the extra damage you're doing is far from trivial. Then you got +1 AC and bonus action healing.
According to the OP, getting all those things instead of going streight GS is "weakening" the character.
A. Disagree. I still think Gloom is better, at level 8 Gloom has an Wisdom save, ASI, a spell known, a 2nd level slot, 5 ft of movement, climbing and swimming speed, favored foe is now a d6, and Land's Stride. B. Also when I look at multiclassing i do the following. I assess my current level and the next one or a few. So I look at level 8 as being one away from level 9 which is 3rd level spells. Going into fighter means possibly giving up on 3rd level spells. This way of looking at multiclassing comes up more when looking at the full casters, but its still important.
In general I am very happy with the damage that my Rangers do, and I don't think they need help there. I would not give up those 6-8th level features for a little more damage. The Ranger can use Summon Beast to close the difference or even just provide a help action to a friend which can also close the damage difference.
But hey I understand if you analyze it differently. Its certainly close and each side has merit.
That's all reasonable, and going either rout is sacrificing what the other would have given you. I love spells, too. But the thing is 3rd level spells are a lot less impactful at level 9+, and the Ranger 3rd level spell list isn't that great. Probably the standout is Conjure Animals.
For example, look at Lightning Arrow. Best case scenario it's doing 36 damage (Hits the target + 2 other targets within 10 feet, and all fail their save). That would be an average of 36 total damage spread over 3 targets. (this is all unlikely to happen, it's best case).
Compared to normal attacks: 18 Dex + Sharpshooter and you're doing 37 damage on your turn, with a non-magical bow and arrow, and not even needing 3 enemies clumped together, and I haven't even factored favored foe. (Hitting the target both times is likely to happen).
Summary: Reasonable people can prefer going straight Gloomstalker, but the notion that muliclassing a GS is by default "weakening" it is preposterous. It's one of the well-known great options to multiclass.
1. Hexblade dip + Charisma-based full caster
2. Barbarian dip + Fighter
3. Gloomstalker dip + Fighter or Rogue (As well as"dipping" in reverse)
These are likely the top three. It's fine to go against conventional wisdom, but I don't think anyone in this thread has made a case.
Each side has merit but .. let’s start with that 2 level fighter dip: fighting style 2 - the main one you can’t get as a ranger is GWF. Further if you really feel you need to have a second there is a feat you can take - not empressing me much here. Action surge 1/rest so at best you get 3 nova ends per day and at worst one - useful but not huge as ranger damage is normally pretty good at any level. Second Wind - like action serve 1-3 times a day depending on rests you can recover 1D10+ FL HP, so 6 to 21 average total HP each day - again useful maybe very useful if your getting lots of rests. So what are you giving up/delaying? Favored enemy/foe improvement, natural explorer/deft explorer improvement at L6 and archetype feature at L7 along with learning a new spell and gaining another (3) second level slot. Given that we are talking somewhat combat oriented I’ll go with just the Tasha’s versions of ranger abilities that means: your favored foe damage increases to 1d6 and you add 5’ of movement and get a a climbing and swimming speed matching your walking speed. Ok the action serve damage is probably a little better but this makes it less significant. The speeds probably don’t mean much to those focused on tanking/nova damage but to a ranger doing what rangers do ( moving all over the battle field and being able to move effectively in all environments these are really big - just go look at the rules for combat under water) . Then you get the wisdom save at L7. Overall yes the powers are fairly even what I don’t think your really getting is the difference between a fighter and a ranger in style of play. If I wanted a fighter with some gloomstalker key abilities I wouldn’t take gloomstalker past L3 to get those basic abilities and then just switch over to fighter - yes I would start with ranger as you get the 3 skills where going the other way you only get 1 ranger skill but either way you get 3 total so it’s really up to you. I wouldn’t go further because that means delaying my fighter features longer. You will probably never really miss the ASI you have to forego and yes extra attacks are delayed and that is problematic but … (if you go fighter 5 then Gloomstalker 3 then back all you really miss is 1 ASI) and then you can play your nova fighter all you want - but realize you are playing a fighter not a ranger. If your playing a ranger your not looking for nova damage, your not looking to tank your moving around hitting hard enough and messing up the foe’s battle plans with your movements, spells and and abilities. A completely different mindset from the fighter. So a major part of our differences here is our (the player not the character) mind set about how the character is functioning. We see your argument but we see that your really speaking as a fighter not a ranger. It’s sort of like a discussion between a tanker and a Green Beret about their different combat modes and tactics.
Summary: Reasonable people can prefer going straight Gloomstalker, but the notion that muliclassing a GS is by default "weakening" it is preposterous. It's one of the well-known great options to multiclass.
1. Hexblade dip + Charisma-based full caster
2. Barbarian dip + Fighter
3. Gloomstalker dip + Fighter or Rogue (As well as"dipping" in reverse)
These are likely the top three. It's fine to go against conventional wisdom, but I don't think anyone in this thread has made a case.
Actually we aren’t complaining about the dip but (at least to me) that means going ranger the 3 levels needed to get the basic gloomstalker goodies and going the rest of the way in the other class - so your playing a fighter or rogue with some basic gloomstalker abilities (and yes if your going rogue you will probably go to GS5 to get the ASI and extra attack). If what you are playing is a GLOOMSTALKER then yes any multiclass is actually weakening you in your core abilities. I can see a level or 2 dip into fighter/rogue/Druid to try to improve one leg of your ranger but your still loosing focused features in your core class for limited benefits from the other class. It’s really more about mindset than abilities gained/ lost.
“18 Dex + Longbow + Sharpshooter: Average hit = 18.5 damage. That's what precision strike adds every time you turn a miss into a hit (less if you want battle field control). You get 4 dice per short rest. Probably a short rest every 2-3 battles, maybe 3-4 rounds per fight. Add an action surge in there each short rest, and the extra damage you're doing is far from trivial. Then you got +1 AC and bonus action healing.
According to the OP, getting all those things instead of going streight GS is "weakening" the character.”
Ok. Take your proposed 8.75 rounds of combat and calculate what a gloomstalker/battle master is doing damage wise with one use of their 4 dice and action surge, then do the same math for a straight gloomstalker‘a damage. What is that difference divided by the 8.75 rounds? 3? 5? I’m not going to do the math because I don’t really care. But it’s not game breaking.
Multiclassing hyper focuses a build. If you want damage, go with a battle master dip. If you want almost as much damage and a lot more, straight gloomstalker is your road to success.
18 Dex + Longbow + Sharpshooter: Average hit = 18.5 damage. That's what precision strike adds every time you turn a miss into a hit (less if you want battle field control). You get 4 dice per short rest. Probably a short rest every 2-3 battles, maybe 3-4 rounds per fight. Add an action surge in there each short rest, and the extra damage you're doing is far from trivial. Then you got +1 AC and bonus action healing.
According to the OP, getting all those things instead of going streight GS is "weakening" the character.
Ok. Take your proposed 8.75 rounds of combat and calculate what a gloomstalker/battle master is doing damage wise with one use of their 4 dice and action surge, then do the same math for a straight gloomstalker‘a damage. What is that difference divided by the 8.75 rounds? 3? 5? I’m not going to do the math because I don’t really care. But it’s not game breaking.
Multiclassing hyper focuses a build. If you want damage, go with a battle master dip. If you want almost as much damage and a lot more, straight gloomstalker is your road to success.
Under those variables, 12.69 extra damage per round if you use all your dice on Precision Attack, and all your dice turn a miss into a hit. We can round it down to 10 because things never go perfectly. Less if you use some of them for battle field control. You also get +1 AC through another fighting style and a bonus action heal. According to the OP this is "weakening" the Gloomstalker. Is that your position as well?
Summary: Reasonable people can prefer going straight Gloomstalker, but the notion that muliclassing a GS is by default "weakening" it is preposterous. It's one of the well-known great options to multiclass.
1. Hexblade dip + Charisma-based full caster
2. Barbarian dip + Fighter
3. Gloomstalker dip + Fighter or Rogue (As well as"dipping" in reverse)
These are likely the top three. It's fine to go against conventional wisdom, but I don't think anyone in this thread has made a case.
Actually we aren’t complaining about the dip but (at least to me) that means going ranger the 3 levels needed to get the basic gloomstalker goodies and going the rest of the way in the other class - so your playing a fighter or rogue with some basic gloomstalker abilities (and yes if your going rogue you will probably go to GS5 to get the ASI and extra attack). If what you are playing is a GLOOMSTALKER then yes any multiclass is actually weakening you in your core abilities. I can see a level or 2 dip into fighter/rogue/Druid to try to improve one leg of your ranger but your still loosing focused features in your core class for limited benefits from the other class. It’s really more about mindset than abilities gained/ lost.
The Gloomstalker is so front loaded, if you go 3 or 4 Battle Master you gain way more than you lose, IF you're focusing on combat effectiveness. Just one more level of fighter than you suggested and you know have an additional, excellent subclass that synergizes perfectly well with Gloomstalker.
3 will do it, but you can make an argument for 4 because that will give you an ASI.
I can fully understand the appeal of NOT doing it. But it's very far from weakening. Straight Gloomstalker is a solid choice. Gloomstalker 5, BM 3-4, then the rest Gloomstalker is also a solid choice. There are multiple ways you can multi-class GS with fighter and rogue without weakening it. In some cases, strengthening it.
Most of the classic combinations of gloom stalker happened before Tasha's, and Tasha's really changes the math.
Roving, Favored Foe, Primal Awareness Spells, the new spells on the spell list (summon beast, magic weapon, revivify, elemental weapon) and Nature's Veil. They all change how one evaluates the Ranger above 5th level. If your DM didn't spend time on the things that made the PHB Ranger great then above 5th level there wasn't a lot to work with that was valuable. to me that is all changed and the Ranger itself no longer begs to be multi'ed above 5th, because the base class is valuable enough ton continue with.
So yeah the gloom stalker/rogue or fighter is a classic multi class, but to some of us its no longer as interesting after Tasha's and 3 levels is a lot to give up.
My read on the OP is that he was asking if with these changes it was now weaker to multiclass a gloomstalker. My general answer is yes. Its close, but if you are going to reach 9th level then I would say absolutely. If you top off at 8th level then it really depends what you want out of your Ranger. If damage is your primary concern you might do better with a multi. Losing the ASI in a 5/3 build shouldn't be too undersold though. That is a problem on the 8th level tops question.
I disagree that multi-classing only increases damage at the expense of other things.
Take rogue, for example. Three levels into Scout give you a free proficiency at first, expertise in two skills and extra options for bonus actions at second, and a new reaction and expertise in two more skills at third. These are all things that aren't related to the extra damage from sneak attack.
So, those three levels give you extra non-damage related combat options and extra out-of-combat effectiveness.
Similar if you take Arcane Trickster; you can take Message and Minor Image as cantrips to assist with scouting, as well as Disguise Self and Silent Image. Heck, Message by itself significantly improves the scouting ability of a Ranger because you don't have to sneak back to communicate what you've discovered. Honestly, this lack of magical communication in the Ranger spell list is, to me, one of the biggest holes in the character design. A class designed around scouting and hunting things through the woods should have a means of communicating more efficient than walking back to his/her friends.
18 Dex + Longbow + Sharpshooter: Average hit = 18.5 damage. That's what precision strike adds every time you turn a miss into a hit (less if you want battle field control). You get 4 dice per short rest. Probably a short rest every 2-3 battles, maybe 3-4 rounds per fight. Add an action surge in there each short rest, and the extra damage you're doing is far from trivial. Then you got +1 AC and bonus action healing.
According to the OP, getting all those things instead of going streight GS is "weakening" the character.
Ok. Take your proposed 8.75 rounds of combat and calculate what a gloomstalker/battle master is doing damage wise with one use of their 4 dice and action surge, then do the same math for a straight gloomstalker‘a damage. What is that difference divided by the 8.75 rounds? 3? 5? I’m not going to do the math because I don’t really care. But it’s not game breaking.
Multiclassing hyper focuses a build. If you want damage, go with a battle master dip. If you want almost as much damage and a lot more, straight gloomstalker is your road to success.
Under those variables, 12.69 extra damage per round if you use all your dice on Precision Attack, and all your dice turn a miss into a hit. We can round it down to 10 because things never go perfectly. Less if you use some of them for battle field control. You also get +1 AC through another fighting style and a bonus action heal. According to the OP this is "weakening" the Gloomstalker. Is that your position as well?
There’s no way that math is correct. Action surge gets you two extra attacks over the average combats and rounds you proposed. That’s an average of 11.55 extra damage each attack for 23.1 total. That’s 2 dice applied as well. Two more dice will bring the rest of your average damage up about 1.2 on two attacks each for a total of 2.4. That’s a grand total of 25.5. Divided by 8.5 total average rounds that’s a grand total of 3 more damage per round. Now, you do have some nova capability and +1 to your AC now, but no ASI, no speed increase, no extra spell slots and spells, and are a mile away from conjure animals, plant growth, and a 3rd level hail of thorns. I’ll take the ranger levels.
Even if you just applied the extra damage from action surge, applied the extra damage from 4 dice, and assumed all hit, over 8.5 rounds that’s still only 7 extra damage per round NOT taking into account the loss of an ASI (with which you would actually loose 11.5 damage versus the straight gloomstalker, which would bring that average down to 5.7 average damage, again assuming everything hits).
And this isn’t assuming to-hit chance like the above post is.
So technically, NO, 3 levels in battle master doesn’t “weaken the build” in terms of only bow and arrow damage. In my very humble opinion, however, it does weaken the build overall.
I disagree that multi-classing only increases damage at the expense of other things.
Take rogue, for example. Three levels into Scout give you a free proficiency at first, expertise in two skills and extra options for bonus actions at second, and a new reaction and expertise in two more skills at third. These are all things that aren't related to the extra damage from sneak attack.
So, those three levels give you extra non-damage related combat options and extra out-of-combat effectiveness.
Similar if you take Arcane Trickster; you can take Message and Minor Image as cantrips to assist with scouting, as well as Disguise Self and Silent Image. Heck, Message by itself significantly improves the scouting ability of a Ranger because you don't have to sneak back to communicate what you've discovered. Honestly, this lack of magical communication in the Ranger spell list is, to me, one of the biggest holes in the character design. A class designed around scouting and hunting things through the woods should have a means of communicating more efficient than walking back to his/her friends.
Yep! Rogue on top of 5 levels of ranger is strong. It does weaken the ranger in some ways, ranger ways, in combination with strengthening it in other ways, rogue ways. That is what multiclassing is, give and take. We are technically talking about battle master here. Which is a fighter. So would obviously boost damage potential, as that is what a fighter does. Versus a rogue that would boost skills and add sneak attack.
And assuming you meet the requirements each round, sneak attack adds an average of 4.9 per round. But no nova potential. Just a consistent damage increase.
It’s also ranger mindset vs fighter or rogue mindset. Fighters are all about damage so anything improving damage or armor is best, rogues are really about deceit (sneaking around and/the con) , casters are about the spells, rangers are about integration - they aren’t the best at any one thing but they are “good enough” at everything using the most appropriate tools to get the job done. When evaluating from that point of view being focused on upping damage is a mistake. To a fighter it’s never a mistake. So when someone stays focused on damage they are thinking as a fighter not a ranger.
It’s also ranger mindset vs fighter or rogue mindset. Fighters are all about damage so anything improving damage or armor is best, rogues are really about deceit (sneaking around and/the con) , casters are about the spells, rangers are about integration - they aren’t the best at any one thing but they are “good enough” at everything using the most appropriate tools to get the job done. When evaluating from that point of view being focused on upping damage is a mistake. To a fighter it’s never a mistake. So when someone stays focused on damage they are thinking as a fighter not a ranger.
I agree. It's what makes rangers such a wonderful starting point for multiclass builds.
Ranger 5 + Fighter, Barbarian, or Monk (nova damage, toughness, defense, and martial options)
18 Dex + Longbow + Sharpshooter: Average hit = 18.5 damage. That's what precision strike adds every time you turn a miss into a hit (less if you want battle field control). You get 4 dice per short rest. Probably a short rest every 2-3 battles, maybe 3-4 rounds per fight. Add an action surge in there each short rest, and the extra damage you're doing is far from trivial. Then you got +1 AC and bonus action healing.
According to the OP, getting all those things instead of going streight GS is "weakening" the character.
Ok. Take your proposed 8.75 rounds of combat and calculate what a gloomstalker/battle master is doing damage wise with one use of their 4 dice and action surge, then do the same math for a straight gloomstalker‘a damage. What is that difference divided by the 8.75 rounds? 3? 5? I’m not going to do the math because I don’t really care. But it’s not game breaking.
Multiclassing hyper focuses a build. If you want damage, go with a battle master dip. If you want almost as much damage and a lot more, straight gloomstalker is your road to success.
Under those variables, 12.69 extra damage per round if you use all your dice on Precision Attack, and all your dice turn a miss into a hit. We can round it down to 10 because things never go perfectly. Less if you use some of them for battle field control. You also get +1 AC through another fighting style and a bonus action heal. According to the OP this is "weakening" the Gloomstalker. Is that your position as well?
There’s no way that math is correct. Action surge gets you two extra attacks over the average combats and rounds you proposed. That’s an average of 11.55 extra damage each attack for 23.1 total. That’s 2 dice applied as well. Two more dice will bring the rest of your average damage up about 1.2 on two attacks each for a total of 2.4. That’s a grand total of 25.5. Divided by 8.5 total average rounds that’s a grand total of 3 more damage per round. Now, you do have some nova capability and +1 to your AC now, but no ASI, no speed increase, no extra spell slots and spells, and are a mile away from conjure animals, plant growth, and a 3rd level hail of thorns. I’ll take the ranger levels.
8.75 rounds of combat. 4 Inspiration die using precision attack (miss into a hit) + two more attacks from action surge. That makes 6 hits if they're all successful.
Damage per hit with longbow, 18 strength, and sharpshooter = 18.5
18 Dex + Longbow + Sharpshooter: Average hit = 18.5 damage. That's what precision strike adds every time you turn a miss into a hit (less if you want battle field control). You get 4 dice per short rest. Probably a short rest every 2-3 battles, maybe 3-4 rounds per fight. Add an action surge in there each short rest, and the extra damage you're doing is far from trivial. Then you got +1 AC and bonus action healing.
According to the OP, getting all those things instead of going streight GS is "weakening" the character.
Ok. Take your proposed 8.75 rounds of combat and calculate what a gloomstalker/battle master is doing damage wise with one use of their 4 dice and action surge, then do the same math for a straight gloomstalker‘a damage. What is that difference divided by the 8.75 rounds? 3? 5? I’m not going to do the math because I don’t really care. But it’s not game breaking.
Multiclassing hyper focuses a build. If you want damage, go with a battle master dip. If you want almost as much damage and a lot more, straight gloomstalker is your road to success.
Under those variables, 12.69 extra damage per round if you use all your dice on Precision Attack, and all your dice turn a miss into a hit. We can round it down to 10 because things never go perfectly. Less if you use some of them for battle field control. You also get +1 AC through another fighting style and a bonus action heal. According to the OP this is "weakening" the Gloomstalker. Is that your position as well?
There’s no way that math is correct. Action surge gets you two extra attacks over the average combats and rounds you proposed. That’s an average of 11.55 extra damage each attack for 23.1 total. That’s 2 dice applied as well. Two more dice will bring the rest of your average damage up about 1.2 on two attacks each for a total of 2.4. That’s a grand total of 25.5. Divided by 8.5 total average rounds that’s a grand total of 3 more damage per round. Now, you do have some nova capability and +1 to your AC now, but no ASI, no speed increase, no extra spell slots and spells, and are a mile away from conjure animals, plant growth, and a 3rd level hail of thorns. I’ll take the ranger levels.
8.75 rounds of combat. 4 Inspiration die using precision attack (miss into a hit) + two more attacks from action surge. That makes 6 hits if they're all successful.
Damage per hit with longbow, 18 strength, and sharpshooter = 18.5
The major thing is that Conjure Animals is far and away the best damage option for ranger and it will outpace most martial builds just thanks to action economy and the fact summons are insane in 5e.
Even swarming the field with CR 0 Bloodhawks will be crazy enough that you will want to summon creatures in most major battles and generally will have a much higher output of damage AND control than any other spell you can create at that level.
Plant Growth is also pretty good as it lacks concentration and is such a large area but lacks damage and in 5e Dead is Better most of the time.
So if you want to MC out of ranger I would personally wait until after level 9.
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A. Disagree. I still think Gloom is better, at level 8 Gloom has an Wisdom save, ASI, a spell known, a 2nd level slot, 5 ft of movement, climbing and swimming speed, favored foe is now a d6, and Land's Stride.
B. Also when I look at multiclassing i do the following. I assess my current level and the next one or a few. So I look at level 8 as being one away from level 9 which is 3rd level spells. Going into fighter means possibly giving up on 3rd level spells. This way of looking at multiclassing comes up more when looking at the full casters, but its still important.
In general I am very happy with the damage that my Rangers do, and I don't think they need help there. I would not give up those 6-8th level features for a little more damage. The Ranger can use Summon Beast to close the difference or even just provide a help action to a friend which can also close the damage difference.
But hey I understand if you analyze it differently. Its certainly close and each side has merit.
18 Dex + Longbow + Sharpshooter: Average hit = 18.5 damage. That's what precision strike adds every time you turn a miss into a hit (less if you want battle field control). You get 4 dice per short rest. Probably a short rest every 2-3 battles, maybe 3-4 rounds per fight. Add an action surge in there each short rest, and the extra damage you're doing is far from trivial. Then you got +1 AC and bonus action healing.
According to the OP, getting all those things instead of going streight GS is "weakening" the character.
That's all reasonable, and going either rout is sacrificing what the other would have given you. I love spells, too. But the thing is 3rd level spells are a lot less impactful at level 9+, and the Ranger 3rd level spell list isn't that great. Probably the standout is Conjure Animals.
For example, look at Lightning Arrow. Best case scenario it's doing 36 damage (Hits the target + 2 other targets within 10 feet, and all fail their save). That would be an average of 36 total damage spread over 3 targets. (this is all unlikely to happen, it's best case).
Compared to normal attacks: 18 Dex + Sharpshooter and you're doing 37 damage on your turn, with a non-magical bow and arrow, and not even needing 3 enemies clumped together, and I haven't even factored favored foe. (Hitting the target both times is likely to happen).
Summary: Reasonable people can prefer going straight Gloomstalker, but the notion that muliclassing a GS is by default "weakening" it is preposterous. It's one of the well-known great options to multiclass.
1. Hexblade dip + Charisma-based full caster
2. Barbarian dip + Fighter
3. Gloomstalker dip + Fighter or Rogue (As well as"dipping" in reverse)
These are likely the top three. It's fine to go against conventional wisdom, but I don't think anyone in this thread has made a case.
Each side has merit but .. let’s start with that 2 level fighter dip: fighting style 2 - the main one you can’t get as a ranger is GWF. Further if you really feel you need to have a second there is a feat you can take - not empressing me much here. Action surge 1/rest so at best you get 3 nova ends per day and at worst one - useful but not huge as ranger damage is normally pretty good at any level. Second Wind - like action serve 1-3 times a day depending on rests you can recover 1D10+ FL HP, so 6 to 21 average total HP each day - again useful maybe very useful if your getting lots of rests. So what are you giving up/delaying? Favored enemy/foe improvement, natural explorer/deft explorer improvement at L6 and archetype feature at L7 along with learning a new spell and gaining another (3) second level slot. Given that we are talking somewhat combat oriented I’ll go with just the Tasha’s versions of ranger abilities that means: your favored foe damage increases to 1d6 and you add 5’ of movement and get a a climbing and swimming speed matching your walking speed. Ok the action serve damage is probably a little better but this makes it less significant. The speeds probably don’t mean much to those focused on tanking/nova damage but to a ranger doing what rangers do ( moving all over the battle field and being able to move effectively in all environments these are really big - just go look at the rules for combat under water) . Then you get the wisdom save at L7. Overall yes the powers are fairly even what I don’t think your really getting is the difference between a fighter and a ranger in style of play. If I wanted a fighter with some gloomstalker key abilities I wouldn’t take gloomstalker past L3 to get those basic abilities and then just switch over to fighter - yes I would start with ranger as you get the 3 skills where going the other way you only get 1 ranger skill but either way you get 3 total so it’s really up to you. I wouldn’t go further because that means delaying my fighter features longer. You will probably never really miss the ASI you have to forego and yes extra attacks are delayed and that is problematic but … (if you go fighter 5 then Gloomstalker 3 then back all you really miss is 1 ASI) and then you can play your nova fighter all you want - but realize you are playing a fighter not a ranger. If your playing a ranger your not looking for nova damage, your not looking to tank your moving around hitting hard enough and messing up the foe’s battle plans with your movements, spells and and abilities. A completely different mindset from the fighter. So a major part of our differences here is our (the player not the character) mind set about how the character is functioning. We see your argument but we see that your really speaking as a fighter not a ranger. It’s sort of like a discussion between a tanker and a Green Beret about their different combat modes and tactics.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Actually we aren’t complaining about the dip but (at least to me) that means going ranger the 3 levels needed to get the basic gloomstalker goodies and going the rest of the way in the other class - so your playing a fighter or rogue with some basic gloomstalker abilities (and yes if your going rogue you will probably go to GS5 to get the ASI and extra attack). If what you are playing is a GLOOMSTALKER then yes any multiclass is actually weakening you in your core abilities. I can see a level or 2 dip into fighter/rogue/Druid to try to improve one leg of your ranger but your still loosing focused features in your core class for limited benefits from the other class. It’s really more about mindset than abilities gained/ lost.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
“18 Dex + Longbow + Sharpshooter: Average hit = 18.5 damage. That's what precision strike adds every time you turn a miss into a hit (less if you want battle field control). You get 4 dice per short rest. Probably a short rest every 2-3 battles, maybe 3-4 rounds per fight. Add an action surge in there each short rest, and the extra damage you're doing is far from trivial. Then you got +1 AC and bonus action healing.
According to the OP, getting all those things instead of going streight GS is "weakening" the character.”
Ok. Take your proposed 8.75 rounds of combat and calculate what a gloomstalker/battle master is doing damage wise with one use of their 4 dice and action surge, then do the same math for a straight gloomstalker‘a damage. What is that difference divided by the 8.75 rounds? 3? 5? I’m not going to do the math because I don’t really care. But it’s not game breaking.
Multiclassing hyper focuses a build. If you want damage, go with a battle master dip. If you want almost as much damage and a lot more, straight gloomstalker is your road to success.
Under those variables, 12.69 extra damage per round if you use all your dice on Precision Attack, and all your dice turn a miss into a hit. We can round it down to 10 because things never go perfectly. Less if you use some of them for battle field control. You also get +1 AC through another fighting style and a bonus action heal. According to the OP this is "weakening" the Gloomstalker. Is that your position as well?
The Gloomstalker is so front loaded, if you go 3 or 4 Battle Master you gain way more than you lose, IF you're focusing on combat effectiveness. Just one more level of fighter than you suggested and you know have an additional, excellent subclass that synergizes perfectly well with Gloomstalker.
3 will do it, but you can make an argument for 4 because that will give you an ASI.
I can fully understand the appeal of NOT doing it. But it's very far from weakening. Straight Gloomstalker is a solid choice. Gloomstalker 5, BM 3-4, then the rest Gloomstalker is also a solid choice. There are multiple ways you can multi-class GS with fighter and rogue without weakening it. In some cases, strengthening it.
Most of the classic combinations of gloom stalker happened before Tasha's, and Tasha's really changes the math.
Roving, Favored Foe, Primal Awareness Spells, the new spells on the spell list (summon beast, magic weapon, revivify, elemental weapon) and Nature's Veil. They all change how one evaluates the Ranger above 5th level. If your DM didn't spend time on the things that made the PHB Ranger great then above 5th level there wasn't a lot to work with that was valuable. to me that is all changed and the Ranger itself no longer begs to be multi'ed above 5th, because the base class is valuable enough ton continue with.
So yeah the gloom stalker/rogue or fighter is a classic multi class, but to some of us its no longer as interesting after Tasha's and 3 levels is a lot to give up.
My read on the OP is that he was asking if with these changes it was now weaker to multiclass a gloomstalker. My general answer is yes. Its close, but if you are going to reach 9th level then I would say absolutely. If you top off at 8th level then it really depends what you want out of your Ranger. If damage is your primary concern you might do better with a multi. Losing the ASI in a 5/3 build shouldn't be too undersold though. That is a problem on the 8th level tops question.
I disagree that multi-classing only increases damage at the expense of other things.
Take rogue, for example. Three levels into Scout give you a free proficiency at first, expertise in two skills and extra options for bonus actions at second, and a new reaction and expertise in two more skills at third. These are all things that aren't related to the extra damage from sneak attack.
So, those three levels give you extra non-damage related combat options and extra out-of-combat effectiveness.
Similar if you take Arcane Trickster; you can take Message and Minor Image as cantrips to assist with scouting, as well as Disguise Self and Silent Image. Heck, Message by itself significantly improves the scouting ability of a Ranger because you don't have to sneak back to communicate what you've discovered. Honestly, this lack of magical communication in the Ranger spell list is, to me, one of the biggest holes in the character design. A class designed around scouting and hunting things through the woods should have a means of communicating more efficient than walking back to his/her friends.
There’s no way that math is correct. Action surge gets you two extra attacks over the average combats and rounds you proposed. That’s an average of 11.55 extra damage each attack for 23.1 total. That’s 2 dice applied as well. Two more dice will bring the rest of your average damage up about 1.2 on two attacks each for a total of 2.4. That’s a grand total of 25.5. Divided by 8.5 total average rounds that’s a grand total of 3 more damage per round. Now, you do have some nova capability and +1 to your AC now, but no ASI, no speed increase, no extra spell slots and spells, and are a mile away from conjure animals, plant growth, and a 3rd level hail of thorns. I’ll take the ranger levels.
Even if you just applied the extra damage from action surge, applied the extra damage from 4 dice, and assumed all hit, over 8.5 rounds that’s still only 7 extra damage per round NOT taking into account the loss of an ASI (with which you would actually loose 11.5 damage versus the straight gloomstalker, which would bring that average down to 5.7 average damage, again assuming everything hits).
And this isn’t assuming to-hit chance like the above post is.
So technically, NO, 3 levels in battle master doesn’t “weaken the build” in terms of only bow and arrow damage. In my very humble opinion, however, it does weaken the build overall.
Yep! Rogue on top of 5 levels of ranger is strong. It does weaken the ranger in some ways, ranger ways, in combination with strengthening it in other ways, rogue ways. That is what multiclassing is, give and take. We are technically talking about battle master here. Which is a fighter. So would obviously boost damage potential, as that is what a fighter does. Versus a rogue that would boost skills and add sneak attack.
And assuming you meet the requirements each round, sneak attack adds an average of 4.9 per round. But no nova potential. Just a consistent damage increase.
It’s also ranger mindset vs fighter or rogue mindset. Fighters are all about damage so anything improving damage or armor is best, rogues are really about deceit (sneaking around and/the con) , casters are about the spells, rangers are about integration - they aren’t the best at any one thing but they are “good enough” at everything using the most appropriate tools to get the job done. When evaluating from that point of view being focused on upping damage is a mistake. To a fighter it’s never a mistake. So when someone stays focused on damage they are thinking as a fighter not a ranger.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I agree. It's what makes rangers such a wonderful starting point for multiclass builds.
Ranger 5 + Fighter, Barbarian, or Monk (nova damage, toughness, defense, and martial options)
Ranger 5 + Rogue (skills, action economy, and non-nova consistent sneak damage)
Ranger 5 + Druid, or Cleric (spellcasting, healing, and utility)
All strong, in their specific way. Sacrificing the other two "pieces of the pie" in the process.
8.75 rounds of combat. 4 Inspiration die using precision attack (miss into a hit) + two more attacks from action surge. That makes 6 hits if they're all successful.
Damage per hit with longbow, 18 strength, and sharpshooter = 18.5
18.5 x 6 = 111
111/8.75 = 12.69
Exactly - by improving 1 leg significantly you weaken the other 2 and overall the ranger is a weaker ranger even if a better fighter/rogue/caster.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
That way of doing the math is...generous.
The major thing is that Conjure Animals is far and away the best damage option for ranger and it will outpace most martial builds just thanks to action economy and the fact summons are insane in 5e.
Even swarming the field with CR 0 Bloodhawks will be crazy enough that you will want to summon creatures in most major battles and generally will have a much higher output of damage AND control than any other spell you can create at that level.
Plant Growth is also pretty good as it lacks concentration and is such a large area but lacks damage and in 5e Dead is Better most of the time.
So if you want to MC out of ranger I would personally wait until after level 9.