I'm building a Rogue for a Curse of Strahd campaign. At level 3 I think I can add arcane trickster. I'm using points buy and I'm wondering how I should distribute them so the rogue is optimized when I can add arcane trickster.
Max your dex. Usually they say AT should focus on int next, and that’s usually good advice. But look at what spells you plan to take. Most of the time, using an attack spell isn’t great is you’re sitting on a 14 int and an 18 dex. Particularly since you can’t sneak attack with spells. But if you’re taking stuff like shield and invisibility and other spells where there’s no roll, int becomes less important. The other factor is the rest of the party. Are you just the normal scout a bit and pick locks rogue, or are you expected to fill some other role?
max your dexterity first, then even out if not max out your intellect. If you just go for even, focus on non-damaging spells as stated in the comment above. If you would rather do adequate spell damage i would still max out your dexterity first and rely on that until you acquire stronger spells.
Hope that helps! :)
Let us know what you decide and how the campaign goes.
My thinking on picking an arcane trickster is that perhaps I could be more effective against the undead and add more ranged attack options. Am I on the right track or would I be better served with stocking up on vampire fighting supplies?
I do not think Ranged spell attacks are ideal for an Arcane Trickster, I think having a bow or crossbow handy is the way to approach ranged attacks. Arcane Trickster improves your melee attacks by letting you use booming blade and green flame blade with a finesse weapon. Also shadow blade at higher level and that does allow a ranged attack. A ranged cantrip will need to take one of your two Cantrips and it will usually be far weaker than using sneak attack.
As far as intelligence it depends what spells you are going to take. You are going to mostly have illusions and enchantment spells. Things like Invisibility, Shadow Blade, Silent Image and Disguise Self don't have a saving throw so they are still pretty effective with a very low Intelligence and I would probably go with a 10 or a 12 on point buy and I have played Arcane Trickster's with an 8 intelligence and they were fine.
If you are going to use spells for offense things like Tasha's Hideous Laughter or Hold Person then you need a high Intelligence, but I would argue you need a 16 to be really effective. The thing is you have very few spell slots. When you use them for offense you are giving up an attack and usually a sneak attack so when you do that you really want it to work.
Mage Hand Legerdemain is awesome. I tend to use with a bonus action to do slight of hand things like steal enemy weapons or spell components. Drop Ball Bearings or Caltrops. Depending on your DM you may also be able to use it to dump holy water on someone. That last is kind of iffy because you can't "attack" with the Mage hand but you can "dump the contents of a vial".
For virtually any sort of primarily Rogue build, you should focus primarily on Dexterity.
Beyond this, Con/Wis are always useful. Intelligence probably won't be particularly useful since you're almost certainly not going to be casting offensive spells in a T1/T2 campaign.
For virtually any sort of primarily Rogue build, you should focus primarily on Dexterity.
Beyond this, Con/Wis are always useful. Intelligence probably won't be particularly useful since you're almost certainly not going to be casting offensive spells in a T1/T2 campaign.
In 2014 5E I agree, but in the 2024 rules almost any Rogue is going to do better damage in combat in tier 2+ getting Truestrike and focusing on a casting stat (and Truestrike is an offensive spell). This is especially true if you are playing an Arcane Trickster that does not need a feat or race to get it.
Also Truestrike lets you do radiant damage with your sneak attack, bypassing damage resistance most of the time.
Dexterity does improve your AC and multiple skills, but it is still generally weaker than pushing a casting stat.
In T2+, Booming/Green Flame Blade out-damages True Strike (often by a lot given how mobile Rogues are) without forcing you to use a sub-standard stat. At level 7, you can cast Shadow Blade if you really want non-physical damage (which also out-damages True Strike).
T2+ means Cunning Strike, which has Dex-based save DCs and which is a huge part of effective Rogue play in 2024.
Dex is a far better innate stat than Int. Int is one of the least common saves and only affects one of the minor skills for Rogues (Investigation). Dexterity affects AC, Initiative, one of the three most common saves and most of a Rogue's main skills.
Arcane Tricksters aren't Eldritch Knights. Eldritch Knights will interleave offensive casting and weapon attacks. Arcane Tricksters have to pick one or the other - and the right choice is almost always 'attacks' rather than 'severely underpowered for the level 1/3rd caster spells'. There are decent offensive caster builds with Arcane Trickster that exploit Magical Ambush, but these are normally T3/T4 builds - and rarely ever Int-based since the Int multi-class options are terrible compared to the Cha/Wis multi-class options.
In T2+, Booming/Green Flame Blade out-damages True Strike (often by a lot given how mobile Rogues are) without forcing you to use a sub-standard stat. At level 7, you can cast Shadow Blade if you really want non-physical damage (which also out-damages True Strike).
It doesn't in play IME, mostly because it requires melee, where Truestrike works both in melee and at rane and it more difficult to use Steady Aim effectively with either of those. In addition both the Weapon part of the attack and the sneak attack damage are piercing or slashing damage which is commonly resisted, where Radiant damage is rarely resisted (and when it is you can still sneak attack with Piercing or Slashing).
Shadowblade does slightly outdamage truestrike by 1 DPR for the two minutes a day you have it, while you are concentrating and provided the enemy is within 20 feet, at the cost of both your 2nd level spell slots.
T2+ means Cunning Strike, which has Dex-based save DCs and which is a huge part of effective Rogue play in 2024.
You are correct about this, pushing dex does improve saves for Cunning Strike.
Dex is a far better innate stat than Int. Int is one of the least common saves and only affects one of the minor skills for Rogues (Investigation). Dexterity affects AC, Initiative, one of the three most common saves and most of a Rogue's main skills.
Not in 2024 in my experience so far. Before 2024 I would agree with you.
Arcane Tricksters aren't Eldritch Knights. Eldritch Knights will interleave offensive casting and weapon attacks. Arcane Tricksters have to pick one or the other - and the right choice is almost always 'attacks' rather than 'severely underpowered for the level 1/3rd caster spells'.
I played a mostly Arcane Trickster from level 1 to level 20 and at high level I was using spells a lot, especially on the 1st round of combat.
The best part about it is with a good Stealth and the new rules on invisible you can generate disadvantage for magical ambush very easy with cunning action. My PC was a Halfling so I could hide even easier by just getting behind another PC.
Tasha's Hideous Laughter in particular is extremely effective when coupled with Magical Ambush, and typically more effective than sneak attack early in a fight. I would start by hiding then cast it at 3rd level and all 3 enemies have disadvantage on the save. If they fail they are incapacitated and prone and there is almost nothing that is immune to Tasha's Hiedous Laughter.
Sleep is also very effective if you go right before a single enemy or if you can hold an action to cast it right before an enemies turn.
I'm building a Rogue for a Curse of Strahd campaign. At level 3 I think I can add arcane trickster. I'm using points buy and I'm wondering how I should distribute them so the rogue is optimized when I can add arcane trickster.
Any advice?
Max your dex. Usually they say AT should focus on int next, and that’s usually good advice. But look at what spells you plan to take. Most of the time, using an attack spell isn’t great is you’re sitting on a 14 int and an 18 dex. Particularly since you can’t sneak attack with spells. But if you’re taking stuff like shield and invisibility and other spells where there’s no roll, int becomes less important.
The other factor is the rest of the party. Are you just the normal scout a bit and pick locks rogue, or are you expected to fill some other role?
8 15 14 15 10 8
max your dexterity first, then even out if not max out your intellect. If you just go for even, focus on non-damaging spells as stated in the comment above. If you would rather do adequate spell damage i would still max out your dexterity first and rely on that until you acquire stronger spells.
Hope that helps! :)
Let us know what you decide and how the campaign goes.
My thinking on picking an arcane trickster is that perhaps I could be more effective against the undead and add more ranged attack options. Am I on the right track or would I be better served with stocking up on vampire fighting supplies?
I do not think Ranged spell attacks are ideal for an Arcane Trickster, I think having a bow or crossbow handy is the way to approach ranged attacks. Arcane Trickster improves your melee attacks by letting you use booming blade and green flame blade with a finesse weapon. Also shadow blade at higher level and that does allow a ranged attack. A ranged cantrip will need to take one of your two Cantrips and it will usually be far weaker than using sneak attack.
As far as intelligence it depends what spells you are going to take. You are going to mostly have illusions and enchantment spells. Things like Invisibility, Shadow Blade, Silent Image and Disguise Self don't have a saving throw so they are still pretty effective with a very low Intelligence and I would probably go with a 10 or a 12 on point buy and I have played Arcane Trickster's with an 8 intelligence and they were fine.
If you are going to use spells for offense things like Tasha's Hideous Laughter or Hold Person then you need a high Intelligence, but I would argue you need a 16 to be really effective. The thing is you have very few spell slots. When you use them for offense you are giving up an attack and usually a sneak attack so when you do that you really want it to work.
Mage Hand Legerdemain is awesome. I tend to use with a bonus action to do slight of hand things like steal enemy weapons or spell components. Drop Ball Bearings or Caltrops. Depending on your DM you may also be able to use it to dump holy water on someone. That last is kind of iffy because you can't "attack" with the Mage hand but you can "dump the contents of a vial".
Hi PadderDad, how did it go?
I'm about to head into Barovia myself, playing an Arcane Trickster. Right now, I'm a 2nd-level High Elf Rogue who just barely survived Shemshime’s Bedtime Rhyme.
It’s been 20 years since my last campaign (huge Ravenloft fan here), and we're super excited to finally have time to play again. :)
I'll be using spells as utility more than combat.
Let's see how long we will survive :)
For virtually any sort of primarily Rogue build, you should focus primarily on Dexterity.
Beyond this, Con/Wis are always useful. Intelligence probably won't be particularly useful since you're almost certainly not going to be casting offensive spells in a T1/T2 campaign.
In 2014 5E I agree, but in the 2024 rules almost any Rogue is going to do better damage in combat in tier 2+ getting Truestrike and focusing on a casting stat (and Truestrike is an offensive spell). This is especially true if you are playing an Arcane Trickster that does not need a feat or race to get it.
Also Truestrike lets you do radiant damage with your sneak attack, bypassing damage resistance most of the time.
Dexterity does improve your AC and multiple skills, but it is still generally weaker than pushing a casting stat.
In T2+, Booming/Green Flame Blade out-damages True Strike (often by a lot given how mobile Rogues are) without forcing you to use a sub-standard stat. At level 7, you can cast Shadow Blade if you really want non-physical damage (which also out-damages True Strike).
T2+ means Cunning Strike, which has Dex-based save DCs and which is a huge part of effective Rogue play in 2024.
Dex is a far better innate stat than Int. Int is one of the least common saves and only affects one of the minor skills for Rogues (Investigation). Dexterity affects AC, Initiative, one of the three most common saves and most of a Rogue's main skills.
Arcane Tricksters aren't Eldritch Knights. Eldritch Knights will interleave offensive casting and weapon attacks. Arcane Tricksters have to pick one or the other - and the right choice is almost always 'attacks' rather than 'severely underpowered for the level 1/3rd caster spells'. There are decent offensive caster builds with Arcane Trickster that exploit Magical Ambush, but these are normally T3/T4 builds - and rarely ever Int-based since the Int multi-class options are terrible compared to the Cha/Wis multi-class options.
It doesn't in play IME, mostly because it requires melee, where Truestrike works both in melee and at rane and it more difficult to use Steady Aim effectively with either of those. In addition both the Weapon part of the attack and the sneak attack damage are piercing or slashing damage which is commonly resisted, where Radiant damage is rarely resisted (and when it is you can still sneak attack with Piercing or Slashing).
Shadowblade does slightly outdamage truestrike by 1 DPR for the two minutes a day you have it, while you are concentrating and provided the enemy is within 20 feet, at the cost of both your 2nd level spell slots.
You are correct about this, pushing dex does improve saves for Cunning Strike.
Not in 2024 in my experience so far. Before 2024 I would agree with you.
I played a mostly Arcane Trickster from level 1 to level 20 and at high level I was using spells a lot, especially on the 1st round of combat.
The best part about it is with a good Stealth and the new rules on invisible you can generate disadvantage for magical ambush very easy with cunning action. My PC was a Halfling so I could hide even easier by just getting behind another PC.
Tasha's Hideous Laughter in particular is extremely effective when coupled with Magical Ambush, and typically more effective than sneak attack early in a fight. I would start by hiding then cast it at 3rd level and all 3 enemies have disadvantage on the save. If they fail they are incapacitated and prone and there is almost nothing that is immune to Tasha's Hiedous Laughter.
Sleep is also very effective if you go right before a single enemy or if you can hold an action to cast it right before an enemies turn.