I completely agree. Rogues are so versatile in what they can be, from simple explorers to pirates to thieves to conmen. Rogues should certainly have CHA as their top or second stat, though exceptions may apply, like the drow assassin with no emotion whatsoever. All rogues need to be able to talk or charm their way out of a sticky situation if their plan goes down the drain.
I completely agree. Rogues are so versatile in what they can be, from simple explorers to pirates to thieves to conmen. Rogues should certainly have CHA as their top or second stat, though exceptions may apply, like the drow assassin with no emotion whatsoever. All rogues need to be able to talk or charm their way out of a sticky situation if their plan goes down the drain.
It sounds like you want to play a Bard rather than a Rogue. A Goblin Whispers Bard feels a lot like a Rogue for the purposes of combat, but has the sort of talk/charm approach you're mentioning.
I completely agree. Rogues are so versatile in what they can be, from simple explorers to pirates to thieves to conmen. Rogues should certainly have CHA as their top or second stat, though exceptions may apply, like the drow assassin with no emotion whatsoever. All rogues need to be able to talk or charm their way out of a sticky situation if their plan goes down the drain.
It sounds like you want to play a Bard rather than a Rogue. A Goblin Whispers Bard feels a lot like a Rogue for the purposes of combat, but has the sort of talk/charm approach you're mentioning.
Hmmm... Makes me think a Bard/Rogue multiclass might prove interesting...
Rogues are the cornerstone of nothing. Their action economy is the worst of any class in the game. It can be useful to have a skill-monkey though. I admit that. That's all they're really good for though. If you're taking more than 5 levels of rogue it's for the RP not for anything they do as a class. Which is your prerogative.
that's completely the opposite of my experience in my current campaign. The Deep Gnome Rogue (L6, Thief here) is one of the best/most reliable PCs in combat.
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Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
The "math" is based on a model. If you're using a model that undersells the capabilities of one approach and oversells another approach, your results aren't based on "math" but on unrealistic models.
So, first of all. Your experience is just that. I can't measure it. There's probably some situation where every class is the "cornerstone" "best" class of the CAMPAIGN. House rules, GM, party and your experience as a player are all contributing factors of course. But I have no way to measure those things. Even then, I think calling the rogue a cornerstone of the game is silly. "Hallmark" more like.
There is nothing special about your build. That's just a basic level 6 rogue with a legacy race. Which tells me you are not necessarily playing by 2024 rules and that your party and/or GM dynamic is such that not much more is needed. Both of which are perfectly fine. I would argue good.
A rogue's primary feature is skill. That feature can be replaced by a skill expert fighter, ranger or wizard (probably others).
But the only objective way we have to measure the value of a class is in combat. If you're having multiple 5+ round combats per long rest at low level, then I could see the balance tipping to their favor. When the barbarians and fighters are out of their limited use abilities and the casters are low on spell slots. Rogues don't need those things.
In my experience most days have no more than a few combats, rarely longer than 4 rounds. And what you will soon find out, is that as barbarians and fighters have more of those special limited use abilities and as casters get more and better spells, your rogue will quickly be outpaced and be "best" only at rogue skills. At lower levels (like 6) what you choose to play is less significant than how well you and your DM know and follow the rules.
That doesn't make rogues bad. It has nothing to do with you. It isn't an insult to people who like rogues. I do too. That's why I'm here. But objectively speaking "best" or "cornerstone" are not words I would use to describe rogues. As dips on a fighter or ranger, they're pretty amazing actually.
Okay assuming that Treantmonk is actually bad at math and used a model specifically bad for rogues, what are your reasons why rogue is the best class in the game? Why does their bad action economy not matter? And after level 5 what is their outstanding feature? And don't say skill monkey.
Show me this supposed PROOF.
It's not a matter of being 'bad at math'. It's a matter of unrealistic models.
Most optimized Rogues are going to be Sneak Attack'ing twice per round. They'll often be doing so accompanied by abilities like Booming/Green Flame Blade or True Strike. They've also got the ability to tack on Cunning Strike options that are generally much stronger than the standard Weapon Masteries available to Martials. Perhaps most importantly, they can generally do so in safety - which is not something most 'optimized' martial builds that completely ignore survival can say. What you view as a 'good' build seems swell - until you realize just how much action economy your party is losing trying to keep them alive.
P.S. People who claim they always get two sneak attacks every round crack me up. You guys must have the most lenient DMs.
P.S.S. I'm not saying they shouldn't allow it. Your DM is going to adjust the combat encounters anyway, so it doesn't matter.
You'll notice that he doesn't model the situation I described - the two Sneak Attack per round. So you'd need to nearly double his Rogue figures to get an accurate comparison.
I'm not sure why you believe it's difficult to get two Sneak Attack per round. It's the norm for T3/T4 play and comes online in T2 in most cases. Your argument seems to hinge on comparing optimized builds for other classes against sub-optimal Rogue builds.
If you dont use shenanigans with a pure rogue for max sneak damage you have 3 attacks per round as a soul knife with nick dagger and 2 weapons feat at lvl 4. And it s range.... Taking the alert feat at lvl 1 you always let a melee of your team position first. You have other way to get advantage and sneak if needed. You will sneak most of the time and 3 attacks i also good dps. Very good, dont think you can do better with a pure Rogue.
For reaction sneak attack you best bet is potion of speed to manage max ressources in combat. But it will cost a lot if dm sell theses or is ok with making them at lower cost. Asking caster to cast haste on you cost a precious round and concentration.... And if stop you lose a round.
Battlemaster also ask for ressources to give you reaction attack...
Theres a post that give you all others options but they are mostly inaccessible or heavy multiclass.
Sentinel feat is also a good option at level 8.... But you need to move melee, and you not sure.
By experience first sneak is almost automatic with soulknife, but reaction sneak is really harder to get and unreliable to consider in each fight.
For Treadmonk he use optimal build and suboptimal builds, but it give you great base guidelines to have high dps builds.
P.S. People who claim they always get two sneak attacks every round crack me up. You guys must have the most lenient DMs.
P.S.S. I'm not saying they shouldn't allow it. Your DM is going to adjust the combat encounters anyway, so it doesn't matter.
You'll notice that he doesn't model the situation I described - the two Sneak Attack per round. So you'd need to nearly double his Rogue figures to get an accurate comparison.
I'm not sure why you believe it's difficult to get two Sneak Attack per round. It's the norm for T3/T4 play and comes online in T2 in most cases. Your argument seems to hinge on comparing optimized builds for other classes against sub-optimal Rogue builds.
it is far from the norm at any tier at most tables. If your table gives that opportunity a lot yes rogues will excel, sort of like if you get to short rest after every fight a warlock and monk will shine.
DMs who know rogues will not always allow you two sneak attacks per round. But if you're going to assume 2 sneak attacks per round for rogues, then you probably also need to assume one opportunity attack per 1.5 rounds for melee. If you're assuming your rogue has a speed potion, you have to assume everyone does. In fact, why stop there? What other potions shall we assume? Or scrolls? Or magic items?
Moreover, your DM is going to adjust the game for your abilities anyway. What's "the best" at one table is not the best at every table. I'm glad rogues are the best at your table. Consider yourself lucky.
Okay but if you're going to assume rogues get a potion of speed every fight, you need to assume everyone does.
Other classes don't actually get much from that Potion of Speed compared to what Rogues get. Nor is Potion of Speed the only option. Rogue/Sorcerer builds double Sneak Attack natively with just class abilities. Scrolls and Enspelled items of Haste are fairly easy to come across. Items like Bracer of Whirling Daggers or Scimitar of Speed provide similar benefits as well. Sentinel in the right builds is a near-automatic Opportunity Attack. And so forth.
If you're going to make any realistic comparison between classes, you have to take into account that players are going to use these sorts of techniques in an optimal build. You can't just cherry-pick some sub-optimal build and proclaim "Rogues suck!" when compared against optimal builds for other melee.
Treantmonk only evaluates classes/sub-classes in terms of DPR. I'm sure there are some people who care about maximizing DPR/combat optimization more than anything else. I don't. I care about having fun, which also includes non-combat parts of the game, i.e., the game overall, which is the point of the OP, i.e., rogue is a well-rounded class.
I completely agree. Rogues are so versatile in what they can be, from simple explorers to pirates to thieves to conmen. Rogues should certainly have CHA as their top or second stat, though exceptions may apply, like the drow assassin with no emotion whatsoever. All rogues need to be able to talk or charm their way out of a sticky situation if their plan goes down the drain.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie;
And with strange aeons even death may die"
-H.P. Lovecraft
It depends on how your DM rules stealth. If they take a conservative interpretation of the rules, they can make hiding in combat basically useless.
What about the nerf to Thief Rogue's Fast Hands ability?
It sounds like you want to play a Bard rather than a Rogue. A Goblin Whispers Bard feels a lot like a Rogue for the purposes of combat, but has the sort of talk/charm approach you're mentioning.
Hmmm... Makes me think a Bard/Rogue multiclass might prove interesting...
Thanks for the feedback
"That is not dead which can eternal lie;
And with strange aeons even death may die"
-H.P. Lovecraft
Rogues are the cornerstone of nothing. Their action economy is the worst of any class in the game. It can be useful to have a skill-monkey though. I admit that. That's all they're really good for though. If you're taking more than 5 levels of rogue it's for the RP not for anything they do as a class. Which is your prerogative.
that's completely the opposite of my experience in my current campaign. The Deep Gnome Rogue (L6, Thief here) is one of the best/most reliable PCs in combat.
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
Depends a lot on your DM and your party. But the math has been done. The DPT is bad.
The "math" is based on a model. If you're using a model that undersells the capabilities of one approach and oversells another approach, your results aren't based on "math" but on unrealistic models.
So, first of all. Your experience is just that. I can't measure it. There's probably some situation where every class is the "cornerstone" "best" class of the CAMPAIGN. House rules, GM, party and your experience as a player are all contributing factors of course. But I have no way to measure those things. Even then, I think calling the rogue a cornerstone of the game is silly. "Hallmark" more like.
There is nothing special about your build. That's just a basic level 6 rogue with a legacy race. Which tells me you are not necessarily playing by 2024 rules and that your party and/or GM dynamic is such that not much more is needed. Both of which are perfectly fine. I would argue good.
A rogue's primary feature is skill. That feature can be replaced by a skill expert fighter, ranger or wizard (probably others).
But the only objective way we have to measure the value of a class is in combat. If you're having multiple 5+ round combats per long rest at low level, then I could see the balance tipping to their favor. When the barbarians and fighters are out of their limited use abilities and the casters are low on spell slots. Rogues don't need those things.
In my experience most days have no more than a few combats, rarely longer than 4 rounds. And what you will soon find out, is that as barbarians and fighters have more of those special limited use abilities and as casters get more and better spells, your rogue will quickly be outpaced and be "best" only at rogue skills. At lower levels (like 6) what you choose to play is less significant than how well you and your DM know and follow the rules.
That doesn't make rogues bad. It has nothing to do with you. It isn't an insult to people who like rogues. I do too. That's why I'm here. But objectively speaking "best" or "cornerstone" are not words I would use to describe rogues. As dips on a fighter or ranger, they're pretty amazing actually.
I find Treantmonk's math and logic to be sound. Here's a chart made from his data.
https://colab.research.google.com/drive/1gLxzzaSGdeiQw03mTxr898XrBUm2mvXy?usp=sharing
It's not a matter of being 'bad at math'. It's a matter of unrealistic models.
Most optimized Rogues are going to be Sneak Attack'ing twice per round. They'll often be doing so accompanied by abilities like Booming/Green Flame Blade or True Strike. They've also got the ability to tack on Cunning Strike options that are generally much stronger than the standard Weapon Masteries available to Martials. Perhaps most importantly, they can generally do so in safety - which is not something most 'optimized' martial builds that completely ignore survival can say. What you view as a 'good' build seems swell - until you realize just how much action economy your party is losing trying to keep them alive.
I find Treantmonk's math and logic to be sound. Here's a chart made from his data.
https://colab.research.google.com/drive/1gLxzzaSGdeiQw03mTxr898XrBUm2mvXy?usp=sharing
P.S. People who claim they always get two sneak attacks every round crack me up. You guys must have the most lenient DMs.
P.S.S. I'm not saying they shouldn't allow it. Your DM is going to adjust the combat encounters anyway, so it doesn't matter.
You'll notice that he doesn't model the situation I described - the two Sneak Attack per round. So you'd need to nearly double his Rogue figures to get an accurate comparison.
I'm not sure why you believe it's difficult to get two Sneak Attack per round. It's the norm for T3/T4 play and comes online in T2 in most cases. Your argument seems to hinge on comparing optimized builds for other classes against sub-optimal Rogue builds.
If you dont use shenanigans with a pure rogue for max sneak damage you have 3 attacks per round as a soul knife with nick dagger and 2 weapons feat at lvl 4. And it s range.... Taking the alert feat at lvl 1 you always let a melee of your team position first. You have other way to get advantage and sneak if needed. You will sneak most of the time and 3 attacks i also good dps. Very good, dont think you can do better with a pure Rogue.
For reaction sneak attack you best bet is potion of speed to manage max ressources in combat. But it will cost a lot if dm sell theses or is ok with making them at lower cost. Asking caster to cast haste on you cost a precious round and concentration.... And if stop you lose a round.
Battlemaster also ask for ressources to give you reaction attack...
Theres a post that give you all others options but they are mostly inaccessible or heavy multiclass.
Sentinel feat is also a good option at level 8.... But you need to move melee, and you not sure.
By experience first sneak is almost automatic with soulknife, but reaction sneak is really harder to get and unreliable to consider in each fight.
For Treadmonk he use optimal build and suboptimal builds, but it give you great base guidelines to have high dps builds.
:)
it is far from the norm at any tier at most tables. If your table gives that opportunity a lot yes rogues will excel, sort of like if you get to short rest after every fight a warlock and monk will shine.
DMs who know rogues will not always allow you two sneak attacks per round. But if you're going to assume 2 sneak attacks per round for rogues, then you probably also need to assume one opportunity attack per 1.5 rounds for melee. If you're assuming your rogue has a speed potion, you have to assume everyone does. In fact, why stop there? What other potions shall we assume? Or scrolls? Or magic items?
Moreover, your DM is going to adjust the game for your abilities anyway. What's "the best" at one table is not the best at every table. I'm glad rogues are the best at your table. Consider yourself lucky.
Okay but if you're going to assume rogues get a potion of speed every fight, you need to assume everyone does.
Other classes don't actually get much from that Potion of Speed compared to what Rogues get. Nor is Potion of Speed the only option. Rogue/Sorcerer builds double Sneak Attack natively with just class abilities. Scrolls and Enspelled items of Haste are fairly easy to come across. Items like Bracer of Whirling Daggers or Scimitar of Speed provide similar benefits as well. Sentinel in the right builds is a near-automatic Opportunity Attack. And so forth.
If you're going to make any realistic comparison between classes, you have to take into account that players are going to use these sorts of techniques in an optimal build. You can't just cherry-pick some sub-optimal build and proclaim "Rogues suck!" when compared against optimal builds for other melee.
Treantmonk only evaluates classes/sub-classes in terms of DPR. I'm sure there are some people who care about maximizing DPR/combat optimization more than anything else. I don't. I care about having fun, which also includes non-combat parts of the game, i.e., the game overall, which is the point of the OP, i.e., rogue is a well-rounded class.
Started playing AD&D in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023