This is a direct quote from the Player’s Handbook:
“Rogues rely on skill, stealth, and their foes’ vulnerabilities to get the upper hand in any situation. They have a knack for finding the solution to just about any problem, demonstrating a resourcefulness and versatility that is the cornerstone of any successful adventuring party.”
No other class is praised in this way. I’ve been playing a Rogue for a while now, and I keep getting into sticky situations, but always make it out unscathed with a clever solution. Rogues are indeed the cornerstone of adventure parties, and even though my character isn’t the best at fighting or magic, my Charisma and Persuasion are ridiculously high. (Why don’t more Rogues specialize in Charisma? What’s better than a thief who is great at Persuasion?) Rogues are the ones that are greatest at exploring, and when it comes to combat, can hold their own. (I like to use Persuasion to make the enemy surrender after a few rounds, then pickpocket them.)
If you disagree, then I just want to say that I am still on my quest to figure out which is the best class, no matter how you play them, and my opinion may change.
Rogues need dex more that anything else. To be anywhere close to holding there own in combat they need sneek attack and that means a dex based weapon. Out of combat they are supposed to be the sneaky ones (stealth needs dex) even your quote says rogies rely on stealth.
The question then becomes what should a rogues secondary and tertiary stat be there are several candidates.
Con: All characters like more hit points especially if going into melee, they can disengage as a bonus action but moving in attacking and moving out means they are still quite close to the enemy. Con saves are also very common. For a melee rogue I woud probably but con second, I do however know a player with a ranged rogue that dumped con.
Wis: Rogues need to be perceptive, if they are scouting ahead they need ot spot the traps or hear the hostiles before being heard by them.Wis saves are also common and a failure can be VERY bad. Wisdom would be my go to second stat for a ranged rogue and third for melee.
Int: Rogues should be able to determine where the loot is hidden and that requires investigation, from a mechanical point of view rogues do not need to prioritise intelligence unless they are an arcane trickster who wants ot pick spells that require decent int. However many parties have no wizard or artificer and the rogue might be in the best position to get decent int for investigation and knowledge based rolls.
Cha: If you get caught high persuasion / deception might mean you can talk your way out of it and for some styles of rogue this can be beneficial, some swashbuckler features also run off charisma, though the party face is usually best filled by a character that has charisma as their primary start (most parties I have been in have at least one of a warlock, sorcerer, bard or paladin.
Str: Usually Little need for a rogue to have a decent strength
You make very good points about the dexterity for rogues. My rogue isn’t really the typical rogue; he’s more of a trickster-showman who uses quick thinking to talk his way out of any situation. That being said, stealth and other dex abilities are also used a great deal. Kind of like a Loki-type dude. For example, he would rather trick an opponent (like a Druid being a spider, and telling an army of Drow that it’s Lolth, and while they’re distracted, I sneak attack them.) When I made him I disregarded con and definitely regret it; having to resort to cha to get out of situations. It all comes down to what kind of character you want your rogue to be.
If you play 5e you can get the best of both worlds - rogue 11, multiclass over to fighter and or ranger for more battle powers. After lv 11 the rogue doesnt really get much.
in the new edition this will change to lv 7 since you get reliable talent earlier. You wont be very good at combat though.
I agree with the OP, because I also tend to play rogues and getting into and out of trouble is always a specialty of rogues. Everyone focuses on damage potential, but most of the games I am in have the damage folks sewn up, but then we end up in a skill or social challenge and it is your time to shine with versatility. You can lie, convince, and intimidate your way through a social encounter equally well. You might need a few knowledge skills working in tandem, or just better versatility as the engagement shifts venues. A balanced game in my groups is usually 65% social/puzzle/clever play and 35% combat. A rogues job is to help set the others up for success and pick off weak opponents while the folks that focused on damage builds do their thing. I have spent quite a few battles ferrying potions with BA dashes, then popping off a random sneak attack.
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IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
Dude, I have to agree, I have been playing a rouge for awhile now. However I am in a magic only party. (I choose assasin) so I hardly get to do anything becuase everyone has invisibitly spells when sneaking is needed and we have a bard that does all the charizma things. However I totaly agree with this.
One could definitely make an argument that rogues are the best class in the game b/c IMO rogues are the most effective class in all 3 phases of the game (except maybe exploration in the wilderness). Add they have weapon mastery and some subclasses can use magic (Soulknife, Thief). That said, Bards excel in all three phases of the game because they're very well-rounded (Charisma--persuasion, etc.--based, Jack of all trades at Level 2, full casters, etc.) but they don't get weapon mastery or proficiency in thieves tools. IMO thieves are better than Bards at general INT-related features of the game: investigation and just general problem solving, esp in settled areas (e.g., cities, villages, etc). There's no part of the game that Rogues don't impact the game, which makes them so much fun to play.
Jokes aside, however, generally, the Wizard is considered the best class in the game, due to how well rounded they are. Aside from health, that is. They get highly potent spells, both for utility and fighting. I'd say that Rogues (Mainly Thief Rogues) focus more on utility/skill checks to get by. So I'm not sure if they're better or worse. Honestly, rogues are about on par with wizards, mainly due to the fact that they can go a long time without a long rest. The main problem with rogue is the negative stereotypes. For instance, most rogues are thought to be Murderhobos most of the time. That's a pretty huge problem, especially in a standard party.
This is a direct quote from the Player’s Handbook:
“Rogues rely on skill, stealth, and their foes’ vulnerabilities to get the upper hand in any situation. They have a knack for finding the solution to just about any problem, demonstrating a resourcefulness and versatility that is the cornerstone of any successful adventuring party.”
No other class is praised in this way. I’ve been playing a Rogue for a while now, and I keep getting into sticky situations, but always make it out unscathed with a clever solution. Rogues are indeed the cornerstone of adventure parties, and even though my character isn’t the best at fighting or magic, my Charisma and Persuasion are ridiculously high. (Why don’t more Rogues specialize in Charisma? What’s better than a thief who is great at Persuasion?) Rogues are the ones that are greatest at exploring, and when it comes to combat, can hold their own. (I like to use Persuasion to make the enemy surrender after a few rounds, then pickpocket them.)
If you disagree, then I just want to say that I am still on my quest to figure out which is the best class, no matter how you play them, and my opinion may change.
I think the key word in that quote is "rely".
Your ability to come up with clever solutions would be the same - if not better with other classes. Spellcasting is far more versatile than expertise or whatever else you are getting as a rogue. You know what's better than a thief who is great at persuasion? A spellcaster that can charm people. What makes a rogue good at exploration? The lack of spells? The generally-low wisdom? Additionally, your plan to make an enemy surrender is rather precarious, as it is based on the DM's decision.
In conclusion, you have presented no convincing evidence for why rogues could be the best class.
Something to think about. Pretty much every class has something that they are really good at. Barbarians are incredibly resistent on the front lines, wizards are super versatile because of their spells, clerics are amazing support. For rogues, what they are amazing at is skill challenges, thanks to their proficiencies, expertise, and Reliable Talent. At high levels, it is pretty common that my rogue characters don't even have to roll for skill challenges because the lowest I can roll is like a 25. Their ability to simply breeze through skill checks is where rogues excel the most. They are competent in combat, as all classes must be, but skills are where they really shine.
I have to almost agree with you. What you say about spells like Charm Person vs a Persuasion check boils down to whether or not you want to use your spell save DC or expertise. Also, I gotta agree with you on the "Your ability to come up with clever solutions would be the same - if not better with other classes." I have a druid; warlock; you name it that has a criminal background and I play as a rogue, but get all the other abilities (and spells!) of the other class.
So I really don't know. Looking at other posts in this thread, I at least have this conclusion though. Are they the most op? Not exactly. Are they really fun to play, depending on how you make them? Yes. I think the question of what the best class is all comes down to the player's standards--fun, or op? (But subclasses do change things up completely.) So the answer depends on the question, which varies from player to player.
One could definitely make an argument that rogues are the best class in the game b/c IMO rogues are the most effective class in all 3 phases of the game (except maybe exploration in the wilderness). Add they have weapon mastery and some subclasses can use magic (Soulknife, Thief). That said, Bards excel in all three phases of the game because they're very well-rounded (Charisma--persuasion, etc.--based, Jack of all trades at Level 2, full casters, etc.) but they don't get weapon mastery or proficiency in thieves tools. IMO thieves are better than Bards at general INT-related features of the game: investigation and just general problem solving, esp in settled areas (e.g., cities, villages, etc). There's no part of the game that Rogues don't impact the game, which makes them so much fun to play.
This is the little rub against rogues. Rogues should be the skill masters and having some bonus to all skills would be that hit they need. Bards should not be a master of all skills class, because they have spells to enhance those areas. I moved this ability from bards to rogues a long time ago. I add it to their 5th level instead, because Uncanny Dodge can feel underwhelming as a combat feature reliant on your reaction.
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IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
One could definitely make an argument that rogues are the best class in the game b/c IMO rogues are the most effective class in all 3 phases of the game (except maybe exploration in the wilderness). Add they have weapon mastery and some subclasses can use magic (Soulknife, Thief). That said, Bards excel in all three phases of the game because they're very well-rounded (Charisma--persuasion, etc.--based, Jack of all trades at Level 2, full casters, etc.) but they don't get weapon mastery or proficiency in thieves tools. IMO thieves are better than Bards at general INT-related features of the game: investigation and just general problem solving, esp in settled areas (e.g., cities, villages, etc). There's no part of the game that Rogues don't impact the game, which makes them so much fun to play.
This is the little rub against rogues. Rogues should be the skill masters and having some bonus to all skills would be that hit they need. Bards should not be a master of all skills class, because they have spells to enhance those areas. I moved this ability from bards to rogues a long time ago. I add it to their 5th level instead, because Uncanny Dodge can feel underwhelming as a combat feature reliant on your reaction.
Maybe it's just me, but I feel like Uncanny Dodge isn't actually bad. Imagine the BBEG hits you with a massive attack, dealing 60 damage. You only take 30. You can do this every round.
Maybe it's just me, but I feel like Uncanny Dodge isn't actually bad. Imagine the BBEG hits you with a massive attack, dealing 60 damage. You only take 30. You can do this every round.
As a rogue, this would be one of the last places you should find yourself. It is a nice perk if you are caught off guard or choosing to tank for a round while the party is setting something up. I just rarely used it enough, maybe 4 or 5 times over a three year campaign. I was running a battlemaster/swashbuckler, so I had a few other options with my reaction which may have lowered this abilities effectiveness. I have not seen my rogue players use it much either. It can be clutch in a situation like you said, though my rogues tend to focus on not being close enough to get whacked in melee. Range attacks can at least get cover or set up strategically to help obscure or hide.
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IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
Maybe it's just me, but I feel like Uncanny Dodge isn't actually bad. Imagine the BBEG hits you with a massive attack, dealing 60 damage. You only take 30. You can do this every round.
As a rogue, this would be one of the last places you should find yourself. It is a nice perk if you are caught off guard or choosing to tank for a round while the party is setting something up. I just rarely used it enough, maybe 4 or 5 times over a three year campaign. I was running a battlemaster/swashbuckler, so I had a few other options with my reaction which may have lowered this abilities effectiveness. I have not seen my rogue players use it much either. It can be clutch in a situation like you said, though my rogues tend to focus on not being close enough to get whacked in melee. Range attacks can at least get cover or set up strategically to help obscure or hide.
I suppose your statement makes more sense if you consider multiclassing, but outside of that, there is rarely a good reason not to use it.
One could definitely make an argument that rogues are the best class in the game b/c IMO rogues are the most effective class in all 3 phases of the game (except maybe exploration in the wilderness). Add they have weapon mastery and some subclasses can use magic (Soulknife, Thief). That said, Bards excel in all three phases of the game because they're very well-rounded (Charisma--persuasion, etc.--based, Jack of all trades at Level 2, full casters, etc.) but they don't get weapon mastery or proficiency in thieves tools. IMO thieves are better than Bards at general INT-related features of the game: investigation and just general problem solving, esp in settled areas (e.g., cities, villages, etc). There's no part of the game that Rogues don't impact the game, which makes them so much fun to play.
This is the little rub against rogues. Rogues should be the skill masters and having some bonus to all skills would be that hit they need. Bards should not be a master of all skills class, because they have spells to enhance those areas. I moved this ability from bards to rogues a long time ago. I add it to their 5th level instead, because Uncanny Dodge can feel underwhelming as a combat feature reliant on your reaction.
Maybe it's just me, but I feel like Uncanny Dodge isn't actually bad. Imagine the BBEG hits you with a massive attack, dealing 60 damage. You only take 30. You can do this every round.
I agree. I had a rogue in a siege campaign and that's how I made it through; every round each of us would be attacked by someone so my one reaction to gain resistance to the damage; I'd say that's pretty good (especially with a Con score of 9)
Yeah, not many rogues would typically end up needing that, but in a situation where the DM has the campaign planned out to be a siege (like my above post), it can really come in handy.
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This is a direct quote from the Player’s Handbook:
“Rogues rely on skill, stealth, and their foes’ vulnerabilities to get the upper hand in any situation. They have a knack for finding the solution to just about any problem, demonstrating a resourcefulness and versatility that is the cornerstone of any successful adventuring party.”
No other class is praised in this way. I’ve been playing a Rogue for a while now, and I keep getting into sticky situations, but always make it out unscathed with a clever solution. Rogues are indeed the cornerstone of adventure parties, and even though my character isn’t the best at fighting or magic, my Charisma and Persuasion are ridiculously high. (Why don’t more Rogues specialize in Charisma? What’s better than a thief who is great at Persuasion?) Rogues are the ones that are greatest at exploring, and when it comes to combat, can hold their own. (I like to use Persuasion to make the enemy surrender after a few rounds, then pickpocket them.)
If you disagree, then I just want to say that I am still on my quest to figure out which is the best class, no matter how you play them, and my opinion may change.
Why don't more rogues specialize in charisma?
Rogues need dex more that anything else. To be anywhere close to holding there own in combat they need sneek attack and that means a dex based weapon. Out of combat they are supposed to be the sneaky ones (stealth needs dex) even your quote says rogies rely on stealth.
The question then becomes what should a rogues secondary and tertiary stat be there are several candidates.
You make very good points about the dexterity for rogues. My rogue isn’t really the typical rogue; he’s more of a trickster-showman who uses quick thinking to talk his way out of any situation. That being said, stealth and other dex abilities are also used a great deal. Kind of like a Loki-type dude. For example, he would rather trick an opponent (like a Druid being a spider, and telling an army of Drow that it’s Lolth, and while they’re distracted, I sneak attack them.) When I made him I disregarded con and definitely regret it; having to resort to cha to get out of situations. It all comes down to what kind of character you want your rogue to be.
If you play 5e you can get the best of both worlds - rogue 11, multiclass over to fighter and or ranger for more battle powers. After lv 11 the rogue doesnt really get much.
in the new edition this will change to lv 7 since you get reliable talent earlier. You wont be very good at combat though.
I agree with the OP, because I also tend to play rogues and getting into and out of trouble is always a specialty of rogues. Everyone focuses on damage potential, but most of the games I am in have the damage folks sewn up, but then we end up in a skill or social challenge and it is your time to shine with versatility. You can lie, convince, and intimidate your way through a social encounter equally well. You might need a few knowledge skills working in tandem, or just better versatility as the engagement shifts venues. A balanced game in my groups is usually 65% social/puzzle/clever play and 35% combat. A rogues job is to help set the others up for success and pick off weak opponents while the folks that focused on damage builds do their thing. I have spent quite a few battles ferrying potions with BA dashes, then popping off a random sneak attack.
IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
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Dude, I have to agree, I have been playing a rouge for awhile now. However I am in a magic only party. (I choose assasin) so I hardly get to do anything becuase everyone has invisibitly spells when sneaking is needed and we have a bard that does all the charizma things. However I totaly agree with this.
One could definitely make an argument that rogues are the best class in the game b/c IMO rogues are the most effective class in all 3 phases of the game (except maybe exploration in the wilderness). Add they have weapon mastery and some subclasses can use magic (Soulknife, Thief). That said, Bards excel in all three phases of the game because they're very well-rounded (Charisma--persuasion, etc.--based, Jack of all trades at Level 2, full casters, etc.) but they don't get weapon mastery or proficiency in thieves tools. IMO thieves are better than Bards at general INT-related features of the game: investigation and just general problem solving, esp in settled areas (e.g., cities, villages, etc). There's no part of the game that Rogues don't impact the game, which makes them so much fun to play.
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The real question is:
Which SUBclass is the best?
Jokes aside, however, generally, the Wizard is considered the best class in the game, due to how well rounded they are. Aside from health, that is. They get highly potent spells, both for utility and fighting. I'd say that Rogues (Mainly Thief Rogues) focus more on utility/skill checks to get by. So I'm not sure if they're better or worse. Honestly, rogues are about on par with wizards, mainly due to the fact that they can go a long time without a long rest. The main problem with rogue is the negative stereotypes. For instance, most rogues are thought to be Murderhobos most of the time. That's a pretty huge problem, especially in a standard party.
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I think the key word in that quote is "rely".
Your ability to come up with clever solutions would be the same - if not better with other classes. Spellcasting is far more versatile than expertise or whatever else you are getting as a rogue. You know what's better than a thief who is great at persuasion? A spellcaster that can charm people. What makes a rogue good at exploration? The lack of spells? The generally-low wisdom? Additionally, your plan to make an enemy surrender is rather precarious, as it is based on the DM's decision.
In conclusion, you have presented no convincing evidence for why rogues could be the best class.
You are winning the game. Good job! Oh wait...
Something to think about. Pretty much every class has something that they are really good at. Barbarians are incredibly resistent on the front lines, wizards are super versatile because of their spells, clerics are amazing support. For rogues, what they are amazing at is skill challenges, thanks to their proficiencies, expertise, and Reliable Talent. At high levels, it is pretty common that my rogue characters don't even have to roll for skill challenges because the lowest I can roll is like a 25. Their ability to simply breeze through skill checks is where rogues excel the most. They are competent in combat, as all classes must be, but skills are where they really shine.
I have to almost agree with you. What you say about spells like Charm Person vs a Persuasion check boils down to whether or not you want to use your spell save DC or expertise. Also, I gotta agree with you on the "Your ability to come up with clever solutions would be the same - if not better with other classes." I have a druid; warlock; you name it that has a criminal background and I play as a rogue, but get all the other abilities (and spells!) of the other class.
So I really don't know. Looking at other posts in this thread, I at least have this conclusion though. Are they the most op? Not exactly. Are they really fun to play, depending on how you make them? Yes. I think the question of what the best class is all comes down to the player's standards--fun, or op? (But subclasses do change things up completely.) So the answer depends on the question, which varies from player to player.
This is the little rub against rogues. Rogues should be the skill masters and having some bonus to all skills would be that hit they need. Bards should not be a master of all skills class, because they have spells to enhance those areas. I moved this ability from bards to rogues a long time ago. I add it to their 5th level instead, because Uncanny Dodge can feel underwhelming as a combat feature reliant on your reaction.
IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
Maybe it's just me, but I feel like Uncanny Dodge isn't actually bad. Imagine the BBEG hits you with a massive attack, dealing 60 damage. You only take 30. You can do this every round.
You are winning the game. Good job! Oh wait...
As a rogue, this would be one of the last places you should find yourself. It is a nice perk if you are caught off guard or choosing to tank for a round while the party is setting something up. I just rarely used it enough, maybe 4 or 5 times over a three year campaign. I was running a battlemaster/swashbuckler, so I had a few other options with my reaction which may have lowered this abilities effectiveness. I have not seen my rogue players use it much either. It can be clutch in a situation like you said, though my rogues tend to focus on not being close enough to get whacked in melee. Range attacks can at least get cover or set up strategically to help obscure or hide.
IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
I suppose your statement makes more sense if you consider multiclassing, but outside of that, there is rarely a good reason not to use it.
You are winning the game. Good job! Oh wait...
I agree. I had a rogue in a siege campaign and that's how I made it through; every round each of us would be attacked by someone so my one reaction to gain resistance to the damage; I'd say that's pretty good (especially with a Con score of 9)
Yeah, not many rogues would typically end up needing that, but in a situation where the DM has the campaign planned out to be a siege (like my above post), it can really come in handy.