Quote from InquisitiveCoder>>Yeah, but when the scout misses their one attack, it becomes fairly clear that the TWF assassin has a big advantage.
The real problem is feats. Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter completely negate the disadvantages of ranged weapons. Crossbow Expert in particular removes any reason to use melee weapons as a rogue, since it grants a bonus attack just like TWF but it can be used from a distance and removes the penalty for having enemies next to you.
Sharpshooter and CExpert are generally strong feats for a high DEX character. The part about ignoring most types of cover in the Sharpshooter feat can be incredibly powerful for a Rogue, even just using a simple weapon like a dart. Perhaps the answer is to houserule a reduction to the impact of one or both these feats. For example, in order to negate 3/4 and 1/2 cover, the Sharpshooter might need to sacrifice 1/2 or 3/4 their move speed. Or perhaps are prohibited from taking bonus actions for the round that they choose to ignore the cover. Either of these would better reflect the increased focus and time necessary to line up a accurate shot under difficult circumstances.
I just feel that a melee sneak attack should just better than it is, because even if you have two attacks as a twf rogue if you choose to not use your sneak attack on your first attack that you had advantage with, yes you have another chance to crit with a sneak attack, but making that third attack without advantage you also have a better chance missing that attack and losing your sneak attack damage of that turn, which is why I have my opinion on the rogue should use their sneak attack on the first attack rather than the second.
The kobold in your example had constant advantage. The second attack is just as likely to hit as the first.
Sorry if it seems like I'm stuck in my opinion, but I'm just really finding hard to see why someone would go with twf over an archer rogue without another change.
You're gonna have to explain what your criteria for success is because you've ignored or handwaved away the benefits of TWF whenever they've been brought up. The TWF Rogue has 2 chances to Sneak Attack instead of 1 and also gets to Sneak Attack on Opportunity Attacks. Why do you feel that's not enough? A ranged build only competes if they take Crossbow Expert, which is generally an overpowered feat either way, and even in that case they're still not getting opportunity attacks.
That seems like excessive rules lawyering to me. Not sure i'd want to allow that at my table.
Using Haste for extra sneak attacks is probably not intended but you can't get rid of it without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Sneak Attacking as an opportunity attack is a legitimate use of the ability and that also relies on the fact that SA works once per turn, not once per round. Melee rogues are one of the most potent incentives for monsters to actually use their action to Disengage instead of just shrugging off the relatively low damage opportunity attacks other characters deal and making a beeline for the wizard.
Using Haste for extra sneak attacks is probably not intended but you can't get rid of it without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Sneak Attacking as an opportunity attack is a legitimate use of the ability and that also relies on the fact that SA works once per turn, not once per round. Melee rogues are one of the most potent incentives for monsters to actually use their action to Disengage instead of just shrugging off the relatively low damage opportunity attacks other characters deal and making a beeline for the wizard.
Using it for opportunity attacks sure, i love that stuff. I reckon i'd just tell someone who's trying to do the haste thing to stop being a prat.
Oh also, i read someone above saying the crossbow feat lets you attack twice in one round? Is that only with haste or something else? Cause i didn't get that impression.
Lmao using haste for extra sneak attack isn’t being a prat it’s totally legitimate and approved on sage advice. It was intentionally done to work that way.
Oh also, i read someone above saying the crossbow feat lets you attack twice in one round? Is that only with haste or something else? Cause i didn't get that impression.
A hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon. Therefore attacking with a hand crossbow meets the feat's requirements for the bonus action hand crossbow attack. You don't need to dual wield them (and in fact can't, since you need a free hand to reload.)
I doubt it was an intentional feature of the feat, but it's 100% allowed by the rules.
Oh also, i read someone above saying the crossbow feat lets you attack twice in one round? Is that only with haste or something else? Cause i didn't get that impression.
A hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon. Therefore attacking with a hand crossbow meets the feat's requirements for the bonus action hand crossbow attack. You don't need to dual wield them (and in fact can't, since you need a free hand to reload.)
I doubt it was an intentional feature of the feat, but it's 100% allowed by the rules.
Huh, i missed that entirely. That's pretty awesome really. Especially if you use the cunning action to re-hide.
With regards to cunning action and the chance to hide again, if you've already shot, is there a disadvantage applied to that hide check? (assuming of course there is sufficient cover to hide)
There's no penalty for repeatedly hiding in the same spot, but your enemies aren't going to magically forget where you were either. If any of them walk over to you, you're going to need a new hiding spot. Alternatively, if any of them take the Search action and find you, you're going to have to hide again.
There's no penalty for repeatedly hiding in the same spot, but your enemies aren't going to magically forget where you were either. If any of them walk over to you, you're going to need a new hiding spot. Alternatively, if any of them take the Search action and find you, you're going to have to hide again.
The Swashbuckler is designed to be more of a melee rogue. They get sneak attack on their melee target as long as they have clearance around themselves, generally in a single duel.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
If you want two Sneak Attacks in one round, one way to generate it is to go up into melee range and to get an opportunity attack when the enemy moves away from you.
(This is my first character, my first forum post, my first anything D&D)
I am sort of thinking of a Changeling Rogue Assassin and was going to use melee for that. Given everything I just read in this thread, is this a mistake?
Any answer in words of one syllable or less (or at least very basic explanations) would be awesome please.
(This is my first character, my first forum post, my first anything D&D)
I am sort of thinking of a Changeling Rogue Assassin and was going to use melee for that. Given everything I just read in this thread, is this a mistake?
Any answer in words of one syllable or less (or at least very basic explanations) would be awesome please.
To quickly sum up everything that was said its "ranged = easier to stealth, which gives you one shot with advantage for sneak attack VS melee = more chances to sneak attack, can sneak attack on your turn plus sneak attack with an opportunity attack."
All the hubbub was about if one ranged sneak attack then cunning action was better or worse than melee sneak attacks.
(This is my first character, my first forum post, my first anything D&D)
I am sort of thinking of a Changeling Rogue Assassin and was going to use melee for that. Given everything I just read in this thread, is this a mistake?
Any answer in words of one syllable or less (or at least very basic explanations) would be awesome please.
To quickly sum up everything that was said its "ranged = easier to stealth, which gives you one shot with advantage for sneak attack VS melee = more chances to sneak attack, can sneak attack on your turn plus sneak attack with an opportunity attack."
All the hubbub was about if one ranged sneak attack then cunning action was better or worse than melee sneak attacks.
Thank you for responding. I was thinking more along the lines of an Urban type setting, I guess. Typical assassin, enter premises, kill target, leave premises. The Changling + Rogue + Assassin gives me a lot of options for both entry and exit. I was thinking of being a "for hire" type, but only where the target can be proven to be bad/evil/etc and the town/kingdom/realm would be far better off if the target was deceased. Not available for general assassinations. No idea how that would even work in a scenario or adventure, but that was how I was thinking anyway. In those circumstances, melee would be as good as range. I just thought about it, in a dungeon, range would not be as versatile??
Once you get the Crossbow Expert Feat at level 4, you can use a hand crossbow and attack in melee range without disadvantage (still not an option for opportunity attacks, though) and attack with a bonus action (making it like two weapon fighting, but slightly better), and still have a ranged weapon with a 30ft range. This is probably the best choice for your character. 30ft isn't much, but it's usually enough.
The bonus action attack is useful for Rogues because they don't get Extra Attack, and it's great having the option to use your bonus action for an attack if your first attack missed, meaning that your bonus action attack gets Sneak Attack damage. If you already got Sneak Attack this turn, it's often better to just use your Cunning Action for your bonus action.
Shortbow or Longbow Rogue is better if you really want to keep your distance from the enemies as you will get 80ft or 150ft range. You could get the Sharpshooter feat and get the 600ft range on the Longbow without disadvantage (you can get 600ft range without the feat, but you would have disadvantage past 150ft). The Sharpshooter feat for a Longbow Rogue would be the sniper type of Assassin, which is another option for you. It also lets you ignore 1/2 and 3/4 cover which is another great ability. 600ft is a ridiculously long range (20x the range of a Hand Crossbow).
If you're fighting indoors, the Hand Crossbow Rogue is better. If you're fighting outdoors, the Longbow Sniper Rogue can be better, because the battlefield will be so much larger.
Two weapon fighting melee Rogue is a good choice if you're more interest in boosting your dexterity or grabbing other Feats instead of taking Crossbow Expert and/or Sharpshooter. It's also a good choice for levels 1-3 before you get a feat.
I would say that the three best options for most Rogues are Hand Crossbow Rogue with Crossbow Expert at level 4, Longbow Rogue with Sharpshooter at level 4, or two weapon fighting Arcane Trickster Rogue with the war caster feat at level 4 and Shadow Blade at level 7 (Shadow Blade can be used as a ranged weapon, too).
If you're fighting indoors, the Hand Crossbow Rogue is better. If you're fighting outdoors, the Longbow Sniper Rogue can be better, because the battlefield will be so much larger.
Two weapon fighting melee Rogue is a good choice if you're more interest in boosting your dexterity or grabbing other Feats instead of taking Crossbow Expert and/or Sharpshooter. It's also a good choice for levels 1-3 before you get a feat.
If we're talking builds with 1 feat, TWF is very powerful with Sentinel. Flat-out stops enemies from moving away from you without provoking and also gives you a free Sneak Attack if they attack someone other than you that doesn't have the feat. Works especially well paired with a tanky character like a cavalier, ancestral guardians barbarian or any fighter/paladin with protection fighting style that can keep you safe if they enemy decides to go for you.
As a wanna-be-melee assassin who tend to end up ranged I feel you :)
I try to craft myself out of the problem, since I am dumping all my money into a good melee weapon (flaming shortsword). That doesnt help with the underlying issue though.
Mobility feat also helps a lot, but at a large opportunity cost.
To make things worse, a done of poison makes is enough to coat 3 pieces of ammunition, but only one weapon for one attack. Makes no sense, but that is RAW. Either it should also have 1/3 the effect, or it should allow one coating period.
Yeah, I know there are benefits of being melee, and they have been explained several times here; it could just be how my DMs make encounters too. As of right now, to help incentivize rogues in my group to go melee instead of ranged, we're going to try out rerolling 1s once for damage rolls of melee sneak attack damage. We've theory crafted of other ideas, but they usually would likely break the game balance (ex. changing to D8s for melee) or allow the swashbuckler subclass to be god tier (ex. critical hit range increased to 19-20).
I know my kobold example was an extreme example, but even with playing my with groupmate's mastermind changeling (who's two personalities have her change between melee and ranged weapons while using poisons) it seemed more effective to use the ranged personality even though he prefers to play the melee for RP reasons.
Yeah, I know there are benefits of being melee, and they have been explained several times here; it could just be how my DMs make encounters too. As of right now, to help incentivize rogues in my group to go melee instead of ranged, we're going to try out rerolling 1s once for damage rolls of melee sneak attack damage. We've theory crafted of other ideas, but they usually would likely break the game balance (ex. changing to D8s for melee) or allow the swashbuckler subclass to be god tier (ex. critical hit range increased to 19-20).
I know my kobold example was an extreme example, but even with playing my with groupmate's mastermind changeling (who's two personalities have her change between melee and ranged weapons while using poisons) it seemed more effective to use the ranged personality even though he prefers to play the melee for RP reasons.
Why not make the house rule that every opportunity attack by the Rogue gets sneak attack without having to worry about getting advantage on the attack or having an ally adjacent to your target?
The chance of a second sneak attack each round is a great incentive for Rogues.
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That seems like excessive rules lawyering to me. Not sure i'd want to allow that at my table.
The real problem is feats. Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter completely negate the disadvantages of ranged weapons. Crossbow Expert in particular removes any reason to use melee weapons as a rogue, since it grants a bonus attack just like TWF but it can be used from a distance and removes the penalty for having enemies next to you.
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Sharpshooter and CExpert are generally strong feats for a high DEX character. The part about ignoring most types of cover in the Sharpshooter feat can be incredibly powerful for a Rogue, even just using a simple weapon like a dart. Perhaps the answer is to houserule a reduction to the impact of one or both these feats. For example, in order to negate 3/4 and 1/2 cover, the Sharpshooter might need to sacrifice 1/2 or 3/4 their move speed. Or perhaps are prohibited from taking bonus actions for the round that they choose to ignore the cover. Either of these would better reflect the increased focus and time necessary to line up a accurate shot under difficult circumstances.
The kobold in your example had constant advantage. The second attack is just as likely to hit as the first.
You're gonna have to explain what your criteria for success is because you've ignored or handwaved away the benefits of TWF whenever they've been brought up. The TWF Rogue has 2 chances to Sneak Attack instead of 1 and also gets to Sneak Attack on Opportunity Attacks. Why do you feel that's not enough? A ranged build only competes if they take Crossbow Expert, which is generally an overpowered feat either way, and even in that case they're still not getting opportunity attacks.
Using Haste for extra sneak attacks is probably not intended but you can't get rid of it without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Sneak Attacking as an opportunity attack is a legitimate use of the ability and that also relies on the fact that SA works once per turn, not once per round. Melee rogues are one of the most potent incentives for monsters to actually use their action to Disengage instead of just shrugging off the relatively low damage opportunity attacks other characters deal and making a beeline for the wizard.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Using it for opportunity attacks sure, i love that stuff. I reckon i'd just tell someone who's trying to do the haste thing to stop being a prat.
Oh also, i read someone above saying the crossbow feat lets you attack twice in one round? Is that only with haste or something else? Cause i didn't get that impression.
At least, when using them at ranged, unless you are dual wielding hand crossbows.
Lmao using haste for extra sneak attack isn’t being a prat it’s totally legitimate and approved on sage advice. It was intentionally done to work that way.
A hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon. Therefore attacking with a hand crossbow meets the feat's requirements for the bonus action hand crossbow attack. You don't need to dual wield them (and in fact can't, since you need a free hand to reload.)
I doubt it was an intentional feature of the feat, but it's 100% allowed by the rules.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Huh, i missed that entirely. That's pretty awesome really. Especially if you use the cunning action to re-hide.
With regards to cunning action and the chance to hide again, if you've already shot, is there a disadvantage applied to that hide check? (assuming of course there is sufficient cover to hide)
There's no penalty for repeatedly hiding in the same spot, but your enemies aren't going to magically forget where you were either. If any of them walk over to you, you're going to need a new hiding spot. Alternatively, if any of them take the Search action and find you, you're going to have to hide again.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Thanks.
The Swashbuckler is designed to be more of a melee rogue. They get sneak attack on their melee target as long as they have clearance around themselves, generally in a single duel.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
If you want two Sneak Attacks in one round, one way to generate it is to go up into melee range and to get an opportunity attack when the enemy moves away from you.
(This is my first character, my first forum post, my first anything D&D)
I am sort of thinking of a Changeling Rogue Assassin and was going to use melee for that.
Given everything I just read in this thread, is this a mistake?
Any answer in words of one syllable or less (or at least very basic explanations) would be awesome please.
Homebrew: | Races | Items | Monsters | Spells | Backgrounds | Feats
To quickly sum up everything that was said its "ranged = easier to stealth, which gives you one shot with advantage for sneak attack VS melee = more chances to sneak attack, can sneak attack on your turn plus sneak attack with an opportunity attack."
All the hubbub was about if one ranged sneak attack then cunning action was better or worse than melee sneak attacks.
My Homebrew | Background | Feats | Magic Items | Races | Spells | Subclass | Homebrewery
To see my homebrew without the limitations of the DDB rules, check out my content on Hombrewery
Thank you for responding.
I was thinking more along the lines of an Urban type setting, I guess. Typical assassin, enter premises, kill target, leave premises. The Changling + Rogue + Assassin gives me a lot of options for both entry and exit. I was thinking of being a "for hire" type, but only where the target can be proven to be bad/evil/etc and the town/kingdom/realm would be far better off if the target was deceased. Not available for general assassinations.
No idea how that would even work in a scenario or adventure, but that was how I was thinking anyway. In those circumstances, melee would be as good as range.
I just thought about it, in a dungeon, range would not be as versatile??
Homebrew: | Races | Items | Monsters | Spells | Backgrounds | Feats
Once you get the Crossbow Expert Feat at level 4, you can use a hand crossbow and attack in melee range without disadvantage (still not an option for opportunity attacks, though) and attack with a bonus action (making it like two weapon fighting, but slightly better), and still have a ranged weapon with a 30ft range. This is probably the best choice for your character. 30ft isn't much, but it's usually enough.
The bonus action attack is useful for Rogues because they don't get Extra Attack, and it's great having the option to use your bonus action for an attack if your first attack missed, meaning that your bonus action attack gets Sneak Attack damage. If you already got Sneak Attack this turn, it's often better to just use your Cunning Action for your bonus action.
Shortbow or Longbow Rogue is better if you really want to keep your distance from the enemies as you will get 80ft or 150ft range. You could get the Sharpshooter feat and get the 600ft range on the Longbow without disadvantage (you can get 600ft range without the feat, but you would have disadvantage past 150ft). The Sharpshooter feat for a Longbow Rogue would be the sniper type of Assassin, which is another option for you. It also lets you ignore 1/2 and 3/4 cover which is another great ability. 600ft is a ridiculously long range (20x the range of a Hand Crossbow).
If you're fighting indoors, the Hand Crossbow Rogue is better. If you're fighting outdoors, the Longbow Sniper Rogue can be better, because the battlefield will be so much larger.
Two weapon fighting melee Rogue is a good choice if you're more interest in boosting your dexterity or grabbing other Feats instead of taking Crossbow Expert and/or Sharpshooter. It's also a good choice for levels 1-3 before you get a feat.
I would say that the three best options for most Rogues are Hand Crossbow Rogue with Crossbow Expert at level 4, Longbow Rogue with Sharpshooter at level 4, or two weapon fighting Arcane Trickster Rogue with the war caster feat at level 4 and Shadow Blade at level 7 (Shadow Blade can be used as a ranged weapon, too).
If we're talking builds with 1 feat, TWF is very powerful with Sentinel. Flat-out stops enemies from moving away from you without provoking and also gives you a free Sneak Attack if they attack someone other than you that doesn't have the feat. Works especially well paired with a tanky character like a cavalier, ancestral guardians barbarian or any fighter/paladin with protection fighting style that can keep you safe if they enemy decides to go for you.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
As a wanna-be-melee assassin who tend to end up ranged I feel you :)
I try to craft myself out of the problem, since I am dumping all my money into a good melee weapon (flaming shortsword). That doesnt help with the underlying issue though.
Mobility feat also helps a lot, but at a large opportunity cost.
To make things worse, a done of poison makes is enough to coat 3 pieces of ammunition, but only one weapon for one attack. Makes no sense, but that is RAW. Either it should also have 1/3 the effect, or it should allow one coating period.
Yeah, I know there are benefits of being melee, and they have been explained several times here; it could just be how my DMs make encounters too. As of right now, to help incentivize rogues in my group to go melee instead of ranged, we're going to try out rerolling 1s once for damage rolls of melee sneak attack damage. We've theory crafted of other ideas, but they usually would likely break the game balance (ex. changing to D8s for melee) or allow the swashbuckler subclass to be god tier (ex. critical hit range increased to 19-20).
I know my kobold example was an extreme example, but even with playing my with groupmate's mastermind changeling (who's two personalities have her change between melee and ranged weapons while using poisons) it seemed more effective to use the ranged personality even though he prefers to play the melee for RP reasons.
My Homebrew | Background | Feats | Magic Items | Races | Spells | Subclass | Homebrewery
To see my homebrew without the limitations of the DDB rules, check out my content on Hombrewery
Why not make the house rule that every opportunity attack by the Rogue gets sneak attack without having to worry about getting advantage on the attack or having an ally adjacent to your target?
The chance of a second sneak attack each round is a great incentive for Rogues.