Recently my group has had several different kinds of rogues, anywhere from a wood elf scout (archer), to a kobold assassin (dual wielding), to even changling mastermind (duelist). Though one thing that me and my DM noticed between all of them, is that no matter what they originally planned on focusing on for combat they all eventually ended up using ranged weapons, or questioning why the ranged sneak attacks were just as good as melee sneak attacks (cause of the risk vs reward aspect). I was just wondering what is everyone else's opinion about this because as it stands, I see no reason for a rogue to attempt a melee sneak attack other than to get a second hit to trigger sneak attack if the first attack missed. Which don't get me wrong is a viable reason to do so, but when you have a high level scout in the party, it becomes fairly clear that getting a second attack that doesn't get sneak attack as a bonus action usually isn't worth making when they can still use their cunning action. After talking to one of my DMs we came up with two possible solutions so far, the first being melee sneak attacks are d8s instead of d6s or melee sneak attacks gain improved critical (crits occur at 19-20). Overall, I was just wondering what over groups have done about this, if they've done anything about it and why.
I was just wondering what is everyone else's opinion about this because as it stands, I see no reason for a rogue to attempt a melee sneak attack other than to get a second hit to trigger sneak attack if the first attack missed. Which don't get me wrong is a viable reason to do so, but when you have a high level scout in the party, it becomes fairly clear that getting a second attack that doesn't get sneak attack as a bonus action usually isn't worth making when they can still use their cunning action.
Yeah, but when the scout misses their one attack, it becomes fairly clear that the TWF assassin has a big advantage.
The real problem is feats. Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter completely negate the disadvantages of ranged weapons. Crossbow Expert in particular removes any reason to use melee weapons as a rogue, since it grants a bonus attack just like TWF but it can be used from a distance and removes the penalty for having enemies next to you.
I can see what you mean about the feats being the issue, like also with the skulker feat, allowing archers to remain hidden if they miss. But even when it comes to a non feat campaign, pre 14 scouts or the other subclasses have to decide on just attacking with advantage once from melee with a follow-up attack if needed/wanted or once from range with advantage with cunning action. Which while still having advantage on the first attack, there's still a better chance for the first attack to him compared to the second one which, I might be the bearer of an unpopular opinion but, I feel the bonus action is still better suited to be used for cunning action. Simple cause if you miss the attack you are no longer hidden, while you still have a 3rd roll to make the attack, I still feel like disengaging to get away from the target is a better course of action in most situations. Compared to making a single attack with advantage and remaining at a safer distance allowing you to re-hide much easier.
I know this is turning into a pro/con of melee vs ranged, but I personally see little to no reason for a rogue to be melee. Plus even if the character is an assassin. If they missed their first attack, their target is no longer surprised, thus losing most of the features for making the initial hit (though I may need to double check if that is correct), while still getting their sneak attack if they still meet the requirements. Honeslty this just might be my personal unpopular opinion for rogues.
You're going to have to explain how your rogues are getting constant advantage, because the comparison you're putting forth isn't apples-to-apples. Hiding isn't 100% reliable and even when it works, getting advantage on 1 attack isn't any better than attacking twice.
Sorry for misunderstanding (there was a bit more I forgot to add), I know that hiding even though it is the most common way my rogues are getting sneak attacks wasn't the cause for this. The reason for me starting this discussion is that the kobold assassin player, wanted to twf assassin. Due to kobolds having pact tactics, he almost always had advantage due to the party's overzealous halfling cavalier was almost always in someone's face (the other rogues were just smart on their hit run and hide tactics/rolls). But with the kobold using a short sword and short bow, there was little difference in his damage whether if he was ranged or melee. Plus coming from a group who's background came from playing games like elder scrolls where players rewarded with more damage or other effects for their rogues going melee giving up the safety of range. So I'm just trying to find a solution for that player, that could work with other rogues as a home rule.
My preferred solution is to not let them get ranged sneak attacks, not through a rule change or anything, just don't let them stay at range. Use larger numbers of lower CR creatures.
Another option would be to give a magical melee weapons, either giving additional dice for sneak attack or with a larger attack bonus but no damage bonus.
Due to kobolds having pact tactics, he almost always had advantage due to the party's overzealous halfling cavalier was almost always in someone's face (the other rogues were just smart on their hit run and hide tactics/rolls). But with the kobold using a short sword and short bow, there was little difference in his damage whether if he was ranged or melee.
I see that as more of a flaw in Pack Tactics than Sneak Attack. I dislike the fact that Pack Tactics works from a distance. If they didn't have a consistent source of advantage for their ranged attacks, they wouldn't be able to forego TWF so easily.
Still, if the kobold's hit rate is so high that they practically never miss, they're still better off with TWF. Why? Because if their hit rate is that high, they can actually afford to not Sneak Attack if the first hit isn't a crit. The chances of critting with the second attack (9.75% with advantage) will actually outweigh the chances of missing.
Still, if the kobold's hit rate is so high that they practically never miss, they're still better off with TWF. Why? Because if their hit rate is that high, they can actually afford to not Sneak Attack if the first hit isn't a crit. The chances of critting with the second attack (9.75% with advantage) will actually outweigh the chances of missing.
Assuming you hit on a 7, any worse than that and you're better off taking the first hit.
Assuming you hit on a 7, any worse than that and you're better off taking the first hit.
That's true, but hitting on a 7 isn't my idea of "practically never." That means they're only hitting 70% of the time, so TWF would make their chance of Sneak Attack go up to 91%, which is quite a big boost. From FallenPhoenixIV's description it sounded like the kobold was already close to 90+% hit rate, hence whey they were writing off the second hit.
I think the prime advantage of ranged is stealth. Using RAW, if you move any distance towards a target in combat you immediately break stealth (unless you have stalker). In addition, since you only need cover to attempt stealth, a ranged character can easily regain stealth after firing. A proper rogue should have stealth at the beginning of their turn (ie stealthed the turn before), use their action to fire a shot, move to a new spot of cover, bonus action hide, rinse and repeat. Combined with elven accuracy you can ensure almost every shot will hit. This is also very fun to play as each fight you’re constantly looking for cover / routes through cover as most DMs will only let you hide behind a specific piece of cover once. (So you shoot behind a tree, move to a different tree and hide, shoot move to a different tree etc).
it is extremely hard for a melee rogue to replicate this level of accuracy / survivability (since if you successfully stealth most enemies can’t target you)
I think the prime advantage of ranged is stealth. Using RAW, if you move any distance towards a target in combat you immediately break stealth (unless you have stalker). In addition, since you only need cover to attempt stealth, a ranged character can easily regain stealth after firing. A proper rogue should have stealth at the beginning of their turn (ie stealthed the turn before), use their action to fire a shot, move to a new spot of cover, bonus action hide, rinse and repeat. Combined with elven accuracy you can ensure almost every shot will hit. This is also very fun to play as each fight you’re constantly looking for cover / routes through cover as most DMs will only let you hide behind a specific piece of cover once. (So you shoot behind a tree, move to a different tree and hide, shoot move to a different tree etc).
it is extremely hard for a melee rogue to replicate this level of accuracy / survivability (since if you successfully stealth most enemies can’t target you)
Yeah, that's how I played my wood elf scout, minus the elven accuracy feat, but with 110 movement per with dash (wood elf base movement 35ft + mobile 10ft + level 6 scout feature 10 = 55ft; 110 w/ dash) was a stupid but fun idea... least when I played, I purposely played a hit and run archer specifically because it fit that character. The move from cover to cover style while attacking from ranged is more of my style of rogue anyways.
I just feel that a melee sneak attack should just better than it is, because even if you have two attacks as a twf rogue if you choose to not use your sneak attack on your first attack that you had advantage with, yes you have another chance to crit with a sneak attack, but making that third attack without advantage you also have a better chance missing that attack and losing your sneak attack damage of that turn, which is why I have my opinion on the rogue should use their sneak attack on the first attack rather than the second. I'm not saying that they should get two fully power sneak attacks as a solution, but something levitate this would help in my opinion. I personally initial thought was to change a melee sneak attack to a d8, which I know is really strong, but didn't think it was a bad idea, while my DM currently is thinking of allowing melee sneak attacks to have a crit range of 19-20, which is also really strong by giving them a boost without increasing their base damage. Sorry if it seems like I'm stuck in my opinion, but I'm just really finding hard to see why someone would go with twf over an archer rogue without another change.
Well my ranged rogue is an arcane trickster reflavored as a ninja using different bombs / potions instead of spells. I can’t think of a single spell I would want to do melee except for shadow blade... which is a perfect backup to compliment your magical bow. The best spells for arcane trickster are find familiar (owl for advantage when you can’t sneak / scouting), sleep (low level aoe), hold person (when they have disadvantage on saves), silent image (I use it for ninja smoke bombs to provide concealment), shadow blade, and haste (for an extra sneak attack each round). I can’t think of any necessary melee spells. I play in AL so unfortunately can’t use booming blade due to PHB+1 rules.
Haste lets you use sneak attack twice in one round?
No, sneak attacks only occur once on your turn. But you can use your sneak attack on attacks that are not on your turn too e.i. battlesmaster combo, and opportunity attacks if meet its requirements
and haste (for an extra sneak attack each round). I can’t think of any necessary melee spells. I play in AL so unfortunately can’t use booming blade due to PHB+1 rules.
So that comment there is incorrect? With regards to haste that is. Also, AL sucks.
Haste does allow two sneak attacks a round. Haste gives you one extra attack on your turn which you take with sneak attack. Then you use your action to make a readied action (attack) which you set the trigger “before x opponent moves” or “after x opponent does this”. When the trigger occur s your readied attack happens during their turn and you get sneak attack (provided you still meet the conditions for sneak attack).
Essentially, you can sneak attack a maximum of twice (three times if you're a scout) in one round, once on your turn and once with your reaction. Haste is one of the methods available to get an attack with your reaction, though you do have to use your non-haste action to ready the attack as that's not a valid option for the hasted aaction.
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Recently my group has had several different kinds of rogues, anywhere from a wood elf scout (archer), to a kobold assassin (dual wielding), to even changling mastermind (duelist). Though one thing that me and my DM noticed between all of them, is that no matter what they originally planned on focusing on for combat they all eventually ended up using ranged weapons, or questioning why the ranged sneak attacks were just as good as melee sneak attacks (cause of the risk vs reward aspect). I was just wondering what is everyone else's opinion about this because as it stands, I see no reason for a rogue to attempt a melee sneak attack other than to get a second hit to trigger sneak attack if the first attack missed. Which don't get me wrong is a viable reason to do so, but when you have a high level scout in the party, it becomes fairly clear that getting a second attack that doesn't get sneak attack as a bonus action usually isn't worth making when they can still use their cunning action. After talking to one of my DMs we came up with two possible solutions so far, the first being melee sneak attacks are d8s instead of d6s or melee sneak attacks gain improved critical (crits occur at 19-20). Overall, I was just wondering what over groups have done about this, if they've done anything about it and why.
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Yeah, but when the scout misses their one attack, it becomes fairly clear that the TWF assassin has a big advantage.
The real problem is feats. Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter completely negate the disadvantages of ranged weapons. Crossbow Expert in particular removes any reason to use melee weapons as a rogue, since it grants a bonus attack just like TWF but it can be used from a distance and removes the penalty for having enemies next to you.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I can see what you mean about the feats being the issue, like also with the skulker feat, allowing archers to remain hidden if they miss. But even when it comes to a non feat campaign, pre 14 scouts or the other subclasses have to decide on just attacking with advantage once from melee with a follow-up attack if needed/wanted or once from range with advantage with cunning action. Which while still having advantage on the first attack, there's still a better chance for the first attack to him compared to the second one which, I might be the bearer of an unpopular opinion but, I feel the bonus action is still better suited to be used for cunning action. Simple cause if you miss the attack you are no longer hidden, while you still have a 3rd roll to make the attack, I still feel like disengaging to get away from the target is a better course of action in most situations. Compared to making a single attack with advantage and remaining at a safer distance allowing you to re-hide much easier.
I know this is turning into a pro/con of melee vs ranged, but I personally see little to no reason for a rogue to be melee. Plus even if the character is an assassin. If they missed their first attack, their target is no longer surprised, thus losing most of the features for making the initial hit (though I may need to double check if that is correct), while still getting their sneak attack if they still meet the requirements. Honeslty this just might be my personal unpopular opinion for rogues.
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I'm just trying to come up with a way that melee can have an edge over range other than "getting one additional attack of they miss"
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You're going to have to explain how your rogues are getting constant advantage, because the comparison you're putting forth isn't apples-to-apples. Hiding isn't 100% reliable and even when it works, getting advantage on 1 attack isn't any better than attacking twice.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Sorry for misunderstanding (there was a bit more I forgot to add), I know that hiding even though it is the most common way my rogues are getting sneak attacks wasn't the cause for this. The reason for me starting this discussion is that the kobold assassin player, wanted to twf assassin. Due to kobolds having pact tactics, he almost always had advantage due to the party's overzealous halfling cavalier was almost always in someone's face (the other rogues were just smart on their hit run and hide tactics/rolls). But with the kobold using a short sword and short bow, there was little difference in his damage whether if he was ranged or melee. Plus coming from a group who's background came from playing games like elder scrolls where players rewarded with more damage or other effects for their rogues going melee giving up the safety of range. So I'm just trying to find a solution for that player, that could work with other rogues as a home rule.
My Homebrew | Background | Feats | Magic Items | Races | Spells | Subclass | Homebrewery
To see my homebrew without the limitations of the DDB rules, check out my content on Hombrewery
My preferred solution is to not let them get ranged sneak attacks, not through a rule change or anything, just don't let them stay at range. Use larger numbers of lower CR creatures.
Another option would be to give a magical melee weapons, either giving additional dice for sneak attack or with a larger attack bonus but no damage bonus.
I see that as more of a flaw in Pack Tactics than Sneak Attack. I dislike the fact that Pack Tactics works from a distance. If they didn't have a consistent source of advantage for their ranged attacks, they wouldn't be able to forego TWF so easily.
Still, if the kobold's hit rate is so high that they practically never miss, they're still better off with TWF. Why? Because if their hit rate is that high, they can actually afford to not Sneak Attack if the first hit isn't a crit. The chances of critting with the second attack (9.75% with advantage) will actually outweigh the chances of missing.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Assuming you hit on a 7, any worse than that and you're better off taking the first hit.
That's true, but hitting on a 7 isn't my idea of "practically never." That means they're only hitting 70% of the time, so TWF would make their chance of Sneak Attack go up to 91%, which is quite a big boost. From FallenPhoenixIV's description it sounded like the kobold was already close to 90+% hit rate, hence whey they were writing off the second hit.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I think the prime advantage of ranged is stealth. Using RAW, if you move any distance towards a target in combat you immediately break stealth (unless you have stalker). In addition, since you only need cover to attempt stealth, a ranged character can easily regain stealth after firing. A proper rogue should have stealth at the beginning of their turn (ie stealthed the turn before), use their action to fire a shot, move to a new spot of cover, bonus action hide, rinse and repeat. Combined with elven accuracy you can ensure almost every shot will hit. This is also very fun to play as each fight you’re constantly looking for cover / routes through cover as most DMs will only let you hide behind a specific piece of cover once. (So you shoot behind a tree, move to a different tree and hide, shoot move to a different tree etc).
it is extremely hard for a melee rogue to replicate this level of accuracy / survivability (since if you successfully stealth most enemies can’t target you)
What if you were an arcane trickster rogue and had those spells that only work with melee?
Yeah, that's how I played my wood elf scout, minus the elven accuracy feat, but with 110 movement per with dash (wood elf base movement 35ft + mobile 10ft + level 6 scout feature 10 = 55ft; 110 w/ dash) was a stupid but fun idea... least when I played, I purposely played a hit and run archer specifically because it fit that character. The move from cover to cover style while attacking from ranged is more of my style of rogue anyways.
I just feel that a melee sneak attack should just better than it is, because even if you have two attacks as a twf rogue if you choose to not use your sneak attack on your first attack that you had advantage with, yes you have another chance to crit with a sneak attack, but making that third attack without advantage you also have a better chance missing that attack and losing your sneak attack damage of that turn, which is why I have my opinion on the rogue should use their sneak attack on the first attack rather than the second. I'm not saying that they should get two fully power sneak attacks as a solution, but something levitate this would help in my opinion. I personally initial thought was to change a melee sneak attack to a d8, which I know is really strong, but didn't think it was a bad idea, while my DM currently is thinking of allowing melee sneak attacks to have a crit range of 19-20, which is also really strong by giving them a boost without increasing their base damage. Sorry if it seems like I'm stuck in my opinion, but I'm just really finding hard to see why someone would go with twf over an archer rogue without another change.
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Well my ranged rogue is an arcane trickster reflavored as a ninja using different bombs / potions instead of spells. I can’t think of a single spell I would want to do melee except for shadow blade... which is a perfect backup to compliment your magical bow. The best spells for arcane trickster are find familiar (owl for advantage when you can’t sneak / scouting), sleep (low level aoe), hold person (when they have disadvantage on saves), silent image (I use it for ninja smoke bombs to provide concealment), shadow blade, and haste (for an extra sneak attack each round). I can’t think of any necessary melee spells. I play in AL so unfortunately can’t use booming blade due to PHB+1 rules.
Haste lets you use sneak attack twice in one round?
No, sneak attacks only occur once on your turn. But you can use your sneak attack on attacks that are not on your turn too e.i. battlesmaster combo, and opportunity attacks if meet its requirements
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So that comment there is incorrect? With regards to haste that is. Also, AL sucks.
Yes, that statement is incorrect, unless there's an override rule I am unaware of with haste.
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Haste does allow two sneak attacks a round. Haste gives you one extra attack on your turn which you take with sneak attack. Then you use your action to make a readied action (attack) which you set the trigger “before x opponent moves” or “after x opponent does this”. When the trigger occur s your readied attack happens during their turn and you get sneak attack (provided you still meet the conditions for sneak attack).
Essentially, you can sneak attack a maximum of twice (three times if you're a scout) in one round, once on your turn and once with your reaction. Haste is one of the methods available to get an attack with your reaction, though you do have to use your non-haste action to ready the attack as that's not a valid option for the hasted aaction.