Hello, I am making a character named Oberon Clodwick, known by his friends as O'Clock. He will be a Clockwork Sorcerer with one level deep into Warlock. The main idea of Oberon will be Twin buff the team and keep firing Eldritch Blast at the enemies, while still have some decent buffs for out of combat too.
So, to the topic now: When I decided to make a Sorcerer and was going though it's feature, I became really glad with the fact that he starts with CON SavingT. But now I realized one thing, that Incapacitated breaks concentration, you can see that explicitly on concentration description. (I Guess I haven't knew it before because it's says nothing on the Condition -> Incapacitated section).
So when you take into consideration, that CWSorcerer have easy aces to Shield/ Mage Armor/ Armor of Aghatys and add that to the 6th level feature you get, you probably be into a position that is easier to face a WIS ST that will make you incapacitated then a CON ST to keep concentration. So now, what made me glad at first is giving me the opposite vibe, I mean you can always get Resilient on WIS, but it does'n fell "natural" as going for a Resilient Con or War Caster.
My initial plan was getting (Eldritch Adept -> Agonizing Blast, on level 5, as my feat) since it's is precise the time E.Blast start to scaling very well, so I would have a real decent "filler". But now I am fearing that my Twin Haste will be "nullified for a low tier spell like Tasha Hideous Laughter or Hold Person".
So what you guys think is best, at level 5: 1- Getting Proficiency on WIS so I can keep my concentration easier but been on a position that I don't do decent damage without burning my strong slots. 2- Get Agonizing Blast, take the risk and consider that it's not comum to be targeted with low level spells that incapacitate; And keep counterspell for the strong one that can do that. 3- None of the above, get +2 Charisma, or a talent that give +1 Charisma in a way to get +4 Charisma bônus.
PS: Not sure if it helps but at level (6 Total) and (5 Sorcerer) my spell list will be: 1° FeatherFall / Mage Armor / Absorve Elements /Hex / Shield 2° Invisibility / Spider Climb / Aid / Enchanted Ability / Misty Step 3° Fireball / Dispell Magic / Protect FE / Haste.
1 - WIS does not help in maintaining concentration
2 - Agonizing Blast will keep paying off, but it is boring, consistent but boring
3 - If your CHR is already an 18, it can wait until a later to increase. Considering your spells known might be limited, you could grab Fey Touched (Misty Step, Gift of Alacrity) or pick up the ritual caster feat to add a ton of spell versatility to your character.
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IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
1 - WIS does not help in maintaining concentration
I think TiradentesZ's rationale is that good WIS, especially WIS save proficiency, will help against effects that can cause you to become incapacitated, which immediately ends concentration.
Personally I think it's wrong to focus on that condition though as the chances of an enemy using an incapacitating effect against you are relatively low; I'm not sure what the exact proportion is, but most creatures don't have an ability like this, meanwhile pretty much every enemy can inflict damage and that will trigger concentration checks.
It's been my experience that you're most likely to lose concentration when facing a large number of incoming attacks, even if they're all fairly weak, as the more checks you roll, the more likely it is you'll eventually fail. If a particular concentration spell is critical to your build, then you want to get your CON save up fairly quickly, as you'll eventually get to the point where you can just ignore DC 10 concentration checks entirely (unless your DM uses critical failures on saves), and if you can squeeze war caster in there somewhere then all the better, but since you already have CON proficiency as sorcerer I'm not inclined to bother myself.
The biggest challenge for me is in keeping my number of concentration spells for combat nice and low, since you can never use more than one at a time it's a waste of space in your list to take too many; there are some great out of combat concentration spells, but you definitely want a good stock of non-concentration spells that you can cast as well. I also prefer combat concentration spells where it doesn't matter so much if they're cast at max level, and preferably with a bonus action to cast, as it means you can always just re-cast them if you need to; of course as a sorcerer you also have the option of Quickened Spell to do this, but it burns sorcery points. My next Sorcerer is going to be quite an aggressive build, so I'll probably take Shadow Blade for up close damage (with the option of quickening a spell to cast on top of attacking with it in later turns), and it has the advantage that it's still good even if you're forced to re-cast it at a lower level.
But yeah, it really depends how reliant you want to be on concentration; there are some good spells that require it, but I wouldn't say any are critical, the main advantage of them is usually that you cast them once then (hopefully) get multiple rounds out of them, so it saves resources in the long run. But you can absolutely build without them and just use cantrips to conserve slots instead where you can. If a concentration spell does fit your build really well though, then you definitely want CON save proficiency and to prioritise a decent CON score, I wouldn't worry about WIS personally though it's not a bad score to have for the skill checks (perception etc.) if you have the points to spare.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
You get agonizing blast @ lvl 2 warlock, you shouldn't take Eldritch Adept if you are already a lvl1 warlock (Extra spell, extra spell slot, 2 Invocations and a spare feat if you go lvl2)
If you want to blast, build a blaster. If you want to buff, build a buffer. Splitting between the two makes you overall weaker at each.
1/ If you want to blast take the lvl2 warlock lvl and get agonizing blast without blowing a feat. Eldritch mind will be a useful buff to concentration for the 2nd Invocation and keeping your Hex up. Take Quicken Meta. Means you are 4/2 @ lvl 6 and don't have lvl3 spells yet.
2/ Hex is a concentration spell, useless for a buffer.
3/ The only useful buff spell on your spell list that needs concentration is haste, which you wont get yet with lvl2 warlock (I assume Protection from Energy is the lvl 3 on your list).
4/ Protection form evil is a Warlock spell if you want it or don't swap it out, its useful for a buffer from lvl 1 upwards. So is lesser restoration, both can be twinned which can really help your party in a pinch (Distant spell meta)
5/ If your close enough to be Held/laughed, you can counterspell. Take counterspell.
6/ TAKE counterspell.
7/ You only get one level 3 spell at lvl 5 sorc, so either fireball or haste or counterspell. You want 2 of those gotta be lvl 6 sorc.
8/ Ditch Warlock for 1 level bard for shed load of spells/inspirations, along with Fey touched or shadow-touched feat (Srly, like 8 cantrips and 16 known spells @ lvl 6). Or go full sorc for higher spell power & slots.
9/ If you really must dip warlock think about Celestial (helping party) or Genie (buff your blasting cantrip), not because its better but because, and I mean no disrespect, Hexblade dip has been done to death, then animated, killed, raised, hung drawn and quartered, sticky taped back and resurrected. Hell go Fathomless, swimming is cool, sorta.
10/ Pure sorc as controller/buffer with heightened = deadly. Srly, watch you party fill their boots on incapacitated foes following a heightened Hypnotic pattern. Plus as a pure sorc you get to 'Freedom of Movement' quicker (The only real anti-hold spell, its abjuration)
11/ Fear your DM liking the idea of NPC's having Hypnotic pattern, on a sorcerer, with Heighten spell, which leads into the point: Which of your build concepts would you fear your DM using? It's usually a good indicator.
12/ I am way too tired to reply to this post, hence its errr . . sorry.
Should I worry about keeping concentration? Yes but everything has weaknesses, that's the game, its the balance. Play smart, except your DM at some point will trip you up and revel in it. If the DM is in TPK mode, nothing you can do about it, but its rare. Usually they give you an out, unless your party is being silly about things.
@Haravikk Loved your answer, you brought up basically all aspects that I wanted to see debated. (10/10), Guess you were the one with more sync with what I wanted to know. I am Inclined to go with your suggestion to "not worry about something to specific", and give preference to CON. Maybe at higher levels I back with the idea to get resilience, since it will synergize very will with the 14th level feature. I mean, add a Paladin's aura into the mix and that is basically an autopass on Wis/Con/Car ST. Here I go again, thinking on a level that I don't even know if I am gonna reach... (Character could die, So I am).
@Jace There were some good Tips on there: Keeping counterspell, try to use the range at my favor. Just found out that TashaHL is 30ft range, so yeah, it's definitely a possibility. Although I personally disagree with many of your opinions: - Imo having Hex is a good thing for a character that have EldrichBlast and can't casting Haste or Polymorph (normal or twin) every small combat he is on. My point is, there is battles and battles and I wan't to be decent impact-full even on the ones I'm "not suppose" to all in. - About getting a second level on Warlock, oh boy, I heavy considered it... And yeah, there are many benefits... But I was running projection of my "future character", and I concluded that the cenário that I'm not to far behind on the comum caster spell progression is the one I want. But again was an valid point. - About deeping on Hexblade, not sure what you didn't like it. I mean, mechanically speaking is great since I'll be able to use a shield, and on the top of that It's the only one I can get the spell Shield from, which will help me keeping one of my sorcerer spell choice "free". Adding the HexBlade curse is amazing too, it's only need a bonus action to set and do not use concentration, so I can TwinHaste and still deal some damage. Finally the most important: My Background fit Perfectly on a Hexblade warlock deep. - I think you are incorrect when you says that I can't select two 3th level spell at sorcerer lvl 5. I mean, I could Pick one and swap any spell a previously had to another 3th level spell.
7/ You only get one level 3 spell at lvl 5 sorc, so either fireball or haste or counterspell. You want 2 of those gotta be lvl 6 sorc.
This is not true, when you level up: "Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the Sorcerer Spells you know and replace it with another spell from the Sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have Spell Slots."
At level 5 you have third level spell slots you can drop a spell for another third level spell. I took haste and tidal wave on my sorcerer at 5
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Hello, I am making a character named Oberon Clodwick, known by his friends as O'Clock. He will be a Clockwork Sorcerer with one level deep into Warlock.
The main idea of Oberon will be Twin buff the team and keep firing Eldritch Blast at the enemies, while still have some decent buffs for out of combat too.
So, to the topic now:
When I decided to make a Sorcerer and was going though it's feature, I became really glad with the fact that he starts with CON SavingT. But now I realized one thing, that Incapacitated breaks concentration, you can see that explicitly on concentration description. (I Guess I haven't knew it before because it's says nothing on the Condition -> Incapacitated section).
So when you take into consideration, that CWSorcerer have easy aces to Shield/ Mage Armor/ Armor of Aghatys and add that to the 6th level feature you get, you probably be into a position that is easier to face a WIS ST that will make you incapacitated then a CON ST to keep concentration.
So now, what made me glad at first is giving me the opposite vibe, I mean you can always get Resilient on WIS, but it does'n fell "natural" as going for a Resilient Con or War Caster.
My initial plan was getting (Eldritch Adept -> Agonizing Blast, on level 5, as my feat) since it's is precise the time E.Blast start to scaling very well, so I would have a real decent "filler". But now I am fearing that my Twin Haste will be "nullified for a low tier spell like Tasha Hideous Laughter or Hold Person".
So what you guys think is best, at level 5:
1- Getting Proficiency on WIS so I can keep my concentration easier but been on a position that I don't do decent damage without burning my strong slots.
2- Get Agonizing Blast, take the risk and consider that it's not comum to be targeted with low level spells that incapacitate; And keep counterspell for the strong one that can do that.
3- None of the above, get +2 Charisma, or a talent that give +1 Charisma in a way to get +4 Charisma bônus.
PS: Not sure if it helps but at level (6 Total) and (5 Sorcerer) my spell list will be:
1° FeatherFall / Mage Armor / Absorve Elements / Hex / Shield
2° Invisibility / Spider Climb / Aid / Enchanted Ability / Misty Step
3° Fireball / Dispell Magic / Protect FE / Haste.
Thanks for you time and opinions!
1 - WIS does not help in maintaining concentration
2 - Agonizing Blast will keep paying off, but it is boring, consistent but boring
3 - If your CHR is already an 18, it can wait until a later to increase. Considering your spells known might be limited, you could grab Fey Touched (Misty Step, Gift of Alacrity) or pick up the ritual caster feat to add a ton of spell versatility to your character.
IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
I think TiradentesZ's rationale is that good WIS, especially WIS save proficiency, will help against effects that can cause you to become incapacitated, which immediately ends concentration.
Personally I think it's wrong to focus on that condition though as the chances of an enemy using an incapacitating effect against you are relatively low; I'm not sure what the exact proportion is, but most creatures don't have an ability like this, meanwhile pretty much every enemy can inflict damage and that will trigger concentration checks.
It's been my experience that you're most likely to lose concentration when facing a large number of incoming attacks, even if they're all fairly weak, as the more checks you roll, the more likely it is you'll eventually fail. If a particular concentration spell is critical to your build, then you want to get your CON save up fairly quickly, as you'll eventually get to the point where you can just ignore DC 10 concentration checks entirely (unless your DM uses critical failures on saves), and if you can squeeze war caster in there somewhere then all the better, but since you already have CON proficiency as sorcerer I'm not inclined to bother myself.
The biggest challenge for me is in keeping my number of concentration spells for combat nice and low, since you can never use more than one at a time it's a waste of space in your list to take too many; there are some great out of combat concentration spells, but you definitely want a good stock of non-concentration spells that you can cast as well. I also prefer combat concentration spells where it doesn't matter so much if they're cast at max level, and preferably with a bonus action to cast, as it means you can always just re-cast them if you need to; of course as a sorcerer you also have the option of Quickened Spell to do this, but it burns sorcery points. My next Sorcerer is going to be quite an aggressive build, so I'll probably take Shadow Blade for up close damage (with the option of quickening a spell to cast on top of attacking with it in later turns), and it has the advantage that it's still good even if you're forced to re-cast it at a lower level.
But yeah, it really depends how reliant you want to be on concentration; there are some good spells that require it, but I wouldn't say any are critical, the main advantage of them is usually that you cast them once then (hopefully) get multiple rounds out of them, so it saves resources in the long run. But you can absolutely build without them and just use cantrips to conserve slots instead where you can. If a concentration spell does fit your build really well though, then you definitely want CON save proficiency and to prioritise a decent CON score, I wouldn't worry about WIS personally though it's not a bad score to have for the skill checks (perception etc.) if you have the points to spare.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
You get agonizing blast @ lvl 2 warlock, you shouldn't take Eldritch Adept if you are already a lvl1 warlock (Extra spell, extra spell slot, 2 Invocations and a spare feat if you go lvl2)
If you want to blast, build a blaster. If you want to buff, build a buffer. Splitting between the two makes you overall weaker at each.
1/ If you want to blast take the lvl2 warlock lvl and get agonizing blast without blowing a feat. Eldritch mind will be a useful buff to concentration for the 2nd Invocation and keeping your Hex up. Take Quicken Meta. Means you are 4/2 @ lvl 6 and don't have lvl3 spells yet.
2/ Hex is a concentration spell, useless for a buffer.
3/ The only useful buff spell on your spell list that needs concentration is haste, which you wont get yet with lvl2 warlock (I assume Protection from Energy is the lvl 3 on your list).
4/ Protection form evil is a Warlock spell if you want it or don't swap it out, its useful for a buffer from lvl 1 upwards. So is lesser restoration, both can be twinned which can really help your party in a pinch (Distant spell meta)
5/ If your close enough to be Held/laughed, you can counterspell. Take counterspell.
6/ TAKE counterspell.
7/ You only get one level 3 spell at lvl 5 sorc, so either fireball or haste or counterspell. You want 2 of those gotta be lvl 6 sorc.
8/ Ditch Warlock for 1 level bard for shed load of spells/inspirations, along with Fey touched or shadow-touched feat (Srly, like 8 cantrips and 16 known spells @ lvl 6). Or go full sorc for higher spell power & slots.
9/ If you really must dip warlock think about Celestial (helping party) or Genie (buff your blasting cantrip), not because its better but because, and I mean no disrespect, Hexblade dip has been done to death, then animated, killed, raised, hung drawn and quartered, sticky taped back and resurrected. Hell go Fathomless, swimming is cool, sorta.
10/ Pure sorc as controller/buffer with heightened = deadly. Srly, watch you party fill their boots on incapacitated foes following a heightened Hypnotic pattern. Plus as a pure sorc you get to 'Freedom of Movement' quicker (The only real anti-hold spell, its abjuration)
11/ Fear your DM liking the idea of NPC's having Hypnotic pattern, on a sorcerer, with Heighten spell, which leads into the point: Which of your build concepts would you fear your DM using? It's usually a good indicator.
12/ I am way too tired to reply to this post, hence its errr . . sorry.
Should I worry about keeping concentration?
Yes but everything has weaknesses, that's the game, its the balance. Play smart, except your DM at some point will trip you up and revel in it. If the DM is in TPK mode, nothing you can do about it, but its rare. Usually they give you an out, unless your party is being silly about things.
13/ Think I'm gunna go bed and just click canc
@TheHumanChris thanks for your answer.
@Haravikk Loved your answer, you brought up basically all aspects that I wanted to see debated. (10/10), Guess you were the one with more sync with what I wanted to know.
I am Inclined to go with your suggestion to "not worry about something to specific", and give preference to CON. Maybe at higher levels I back with the idea to get resilience, since it will synergize very will with the 14th level feature. I mean, add a Paladin's aura into the mix and that is basically an autopass on Wis/Con/Car ST.
Here I go again, thinking on a level that I don't even know if I am gonna reach... (Character could die, So I am).
@Jace There were some good Tips on there: Keeping counterspell, try to use the range at my favor. Just found out that TashaHL is 30ft range, so yeah, it's definitely a possibility. Although I personally disagree with many of your opinions:
- Imo having Hex is a good thing for a character that have EldrichBlast and can't casting Haste or Polymorph (normal or twin) every small combat he is on. My point is, there is battles and battles and I wan't to be decent impact-full even on the ones I'm "not suppose" to all in.
- About getting a second level on Warlock, oh boy, I heavy considered it... And yeah, there are many benefits... But I was running projection of my "future character", and I concluded that the cenário that I'm not to far behind on the comum caster spell progression is the one I want. But again was an valid point.
- About deeping on Hexblade, not sure what you didn't like it. I mean, mechanically speaking is great since I'll be able to use a shield, and on the top of that It's the only one I can get the spell Shield from, which will help me keeping one of my sorcerer spell choice "free". Adding the HexBlade curse is amazing too, it's only need a bonus action to set and do not use concentration, so I can TwinHaste and still deal some damage. Finally the most important: My Background fit Perfectly on a Hexblade warlock deep.
- I think you are incorrect when you says that I can't select two 3th level spell at sorcerer lvl 5. I mean, I could Pick one and swap any spell a previously had to another 3th level spell.
This is not true, when you level up: "Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the Sorcerer Spells you know and replace it with another spell from the Sorcerer spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have Spell Slots."
At level 5 you have third level spell slots you can drop a spell for another third level spell. I took haste and tidal wave on my sorcerer at 5