Note: By "good" I mean that the character won't struggle in a usual party. I don't mean super minmaxed and designed for power gamer domination. I'm DMing for a new group soon of primarily newbies. One of them is a player who wants to play some sort of a swordmage, so I told him about some of the builds. Although he's more likely to play eldritch knight by a lot, he did show an interest in a draconic sorcerer as he thinks that may be good. I know it's a good Gish when multi classed with a hexblade or paladin, but is it usable compared to your average party as a swordmage/gish character?
I know a lot of the swordmage spells like green flame blade and booming blade, which green flame blade may be useful with a fire damage ancestry as mid to late levels.
My only real worries are that at low levels, a draconic sorcerer gish may have a hard time due to the lack of HP, which is why I am consulting here. I doubt it as Draconic Sorcerers do have the extra HP, as well as constitution is generally a sorcerer's second best stat.
And again, this isn't really a crazy builds campaign. This is your average D&D game in terms of character power.
Edit: He's decided a while back on an eldritch knight. But you can still post here if you want to talk about the build I guess.
Draconic is a really underpowered subclass, and it's not really a gish class so when you try to make it one, you are just making a sub par subclass even worse.
The phb sorcerer subclasses are some of the weakest in the game, and draconic might have some extra amor and hp they don't have anything else that even makes them a gish. I would highly recommend that they don't pick that class if that's what they want. It's going to feel noticeably week/fragile compared to other characters and once they hit level 5 it's going to feel completely outclassed or have realized they are much better off playing as a caster, because that's what the subclass is.
Artificers, blade singer, hexblade, paladins, clerics (war domain in particular), valor bards, arcane trickster rogues, eldritch knight, rune knight, even a melee ranger, any of those would be better.
Nah, because swordmages use swords, and sorcerers don't have proficiency in martial weapons nor armor. If you want to be decent at both swords and magic, the build becomes MAD.
It'd be alleviated if you played paladin for the first level, then multi'd into sorcerer, he could even start as a high elf so he can pick up either GFB or BB from the get go to start living out that gish fantasy ASAP. Maybe if you wanna help your buddy out, toss him a pair of ogre gauntlets.
Have him look into bladesinger, that's a real good gish build too. You have little issues with stat conflicts because you pump up DEX anyways, and its multiattack is perhaps the most satisfying version of a spellstrike. Real item independent too!
Draconic Bloodline is not very good overall in its current form; it has no added spell list unlike newer sub-classes, and while its 1st level features are pretty good, everything after that is a bit "meh", not terrible, but you just don't have any extra attacks. You can use Shadow Blade for okay damage, and use quickened spell to cast on top of that but that's burning resources whereas a Bladesinger can do solid damage just by adding a cantrip every turn, and you can do attack + quicken with any sorcerer sub-class, so there are better options available even there now.
I've been experimenting with some homebrew to fix up Draconic Bloodline if you're interested, that makes it a little more Gish-y, by opening up the damage types (to match the new Dragonborn UA) and reducing the cost to attack and cast each turn, adds the ability to actually turn into a dragon (because why can Bards and Wizards do it, but Dragon sorcerers can't?), and also adds a spell list (limited by the public homebrew rules). But I wasn't planning to release that publicly without a lot more testing.
For current, official options you definitely want Bladesinger; if you can put some points into Charisma you could take a one level dip into vanilla Draconic Bloodline for the extra cantrips and spells and flavour, but it would mean delaying your Extra Attack.
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Draconic Bloodline is not very good overall in its current form; it has no added spell list unlike newer sub-classes, and while its 1st level features are pretty good, everything after that is a bit "meh", not terrible, but you just don't have any extra attacks. You can use Shadow Blade for okay damage, and use quickened spell to cast on top of that but that's burning resources whereas a Bladesinger can do solid damage just by adding a cantrip every turn, and you can do attack + quicken with any sorcerer sub-class, so there are better options available even there now.
I've been experimenting with some homebrew to fix up Draconic Bloodline if you're interested, that makes it a little more Gish-y, by opening up the damage types (to match the new Dragonborn UA) and reducing the cost to attack and cast each turn, and also adds the ability to actually turn into a dragon (because why can Bards and Wizards do it, but Dragon sorcerers can't?). But I wasn't planning to release that without a lot more testing.
For current, official options you definitely want Bladesinger; if you can put some points into Charisma you could take a one level dip into vanilla Draconic Bloodline for the extra cantrips and spells and flavour, but it would mean delaying your Extra Attack.
I plan to give any sorcerer a spell list if their subclass does not have it.
Take a Tiefling Fiend Warlock, at level 3 take pact of the tome with the shillelagh and booming blade cantrips (I'd take guidance for the third). In your starting equipment make sure you take a club. Cast shillelagh on the club. You now have a light D8 magical weapon that you can use booming blade with.
Bladesinger is a wizard who can fight in melee. Eldritch Knight is a fighter that can cast some spells. Hexblade is somewhere in between those extremes.
High Elves make a good basis for an Eldritch Knight or Bladesinger because they start with an extra cantrip. You can either leave your Eldritch Knight with high dexterity and use it as an archer/finesse weapon fighter, or move the +2 stat to strength and make it a conventional strength build. High Elf is also a good basis for Hexblade but remember to take a cantrip that doesn't depend on your casting stat because you will want to be boosting charisma for a Warlock.
Aside from the extra hit point per level, and as you mentioned, one small benefit to being a Draconic gish is, if you choose Red, Gold or Brass and have Elemental Affinity (Fire), you can add your CHR modifier to one roll of Green Flame Blade damage. If you do the Hexblade dip, you get martial weapons, shield and medium armour and can use CHR as your melee attack modifer, reducing your MADness. At 6/1, you can do GFB for 1d8 long sword + Chr Modifier for Hex Warrior + 1d8 GFB + CHR Modifer for Elemental Affinity +3 for Hexblade's Curse and another 1d8 + CHR modifier fire damage to an adjacent target. Not too shabby, but not a big difference compared to other options which can build in much the same way. I do like the flavour and I don't know if you can do better as a, mainly, sorcerer.
A Hill Dwarf (with plenty of Tasha customization) nets you two martial weapons, and even more bonus health to bring you up to an effective d10 hit die. Pick up a Rapier, Wand, your draconic armor, shield, absorb elements, green flame blade, shadow blade, slow, fireball, and have your dwarf take up fire breathing and sword-swallowing instead of ale-swallowing.
Congrats, you’ve made a fire-based monoclassed sorcerer Gish, though you need good Dex, Con, and Cha to function.
I would consider playing a draconian sorcerer as a Gish in the right campaign. Meaning a campaign where no one is building their PCs using optimization guides and the DM isn’t running Chult or a similar campaign that’s designed to kill as many PCs as possible. It would be fun with Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, and Shield. Not to mention Sword Burst, Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp, Thunderwave, Dragon’s Breath, and other short range spells.
At level 6, a Red, Gold, or Brass Dragon ancestry Draconic Sorcerer gets to add his Charisma modifier to the damage on Green Flame Blade.
Unfortunately, there's no Draconic Ancestry that gives a boost to the thunder damage of Booming Blade.
However, if you're a generous DM and you let this PC find a weapon that deals Acid, Lightning, Poison, or Cold damage (depending on what type of Sorcerer he is), then according to RAW, he should be adding his Charisma modifier to the damage when he casts [spell[Booming Blade[/spell] (after he reaches level 6) because the weapon damage is part of the damage dealt by the spell because the weapon attack is part of casting the spell. It would make sense for a Draconic Sorcerer gish to find a melee weapon that deals the damage type associated with this ancestry, and it would be a great way to boost this player's damage capabilities without making him overpowered. Unfortunately, because Sorcerers don't get many weapon proficiencies, he would need to either get the weapon proficiency from his race (a very good way to do it), or it would have to be a magical dagger/quarterstaff.
Being able to add both his Dexterity and his Charisma to Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade will give him a decent amount of damage, and having high Dexterity (maybe even his top stat if he chooses to mostly use his spell slots for buff spells and utility spells and not spells that rely on having a high charisma score) should give him a passable AC, especially if he's casting Shield fairly often (one of the many fantastic Sorcerer spells that he could take that wouldn't require a high charisma score). Once he reaches level 5, he'll be able to cast [spell[Haste[/spell] on himself, which will boost his AC even more and give him an extra attack each round, although only a weapon attack, not a cantrip. There are plenty of spells like Haste and Shield that he could use where his Charisma score wouldn't matter (Absorb Elements is another one of these spells and is extremely thematic in addition to being a very powerful spell).
Came late to this conversation looking for new gish options but since I haven't seen anyone mention the Stone Sorcerer UA I will. It was clearly intended to be the sorcerer's gish subclass giving you martial weapon and shield proficiency, some extra hp (same as Draconic bloodline), unarmored AC 13 + con mod, access to smite spells, and a reaction to teleport to an ally that's been hit by a melee attack and make your own melee attack with the same reaction against the attacker that does an extra d10 damage that scale with level. I accidently made this as one of like my first PC's with a newbie group as a dwarf earthbender and didn't know it was a gish, didn't even know what a gish was, and didn't know it wasn't official content yet, so I don't think I exactly built him optimally but I still had a blast when we skipped some levels and our DM gave me Dwarven Thrower. Coulda done with extra attack tho, but that wish probably doesn't have anything to do with game balance lol.
That is not what I would choose. I don't think the 13 you get from dragon sorc is good enough for this. The 13 is designed to make you survivable if you are caught in melee, it is not good enough to make you a character that melees regularly.
I would probably either multiclass or go Gith or Dwarf to get medium (or with multiclass heavy) armor, if you do that you can take any sorcerer and make it work. Mechanically shadow or clockwork are probably best for this though.
If he is willing to look outside sorcerer, bladesinger is really the best swordmage bar none.
I'm trying a rogue/sorcerer with the draconic bloodline (Gold) not sure how ill level him up yet gameplay and needs will dictate that since it's a 3 player adventure.
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Note: By "good" I mean that the character won't struggle in a usual party. I don't mean super minmaxed and designed for power gamer domination. I'm DMing for a new group soon of primarily newbies. One of them is a player who wants to play some sort of a swordmage, so I told him about some of the builds. Although he's more likely to play eldritch knight by a lot, he did show an interest in a draconic sorcerer as he thinks that may be good. I know it's a good Gish when multi classed with a hexblade or paladin, but is it usable compared to your average party as a swordmage/gish character?
I know a lot of the swordmage spells like green flame blade and booming blade, which green flame blade may be useful with a fire damage ancestry as mid to late levels.
My only real worries are that at low levels, a draconic sorcerer gish may have a hard time due to the lack of HP, which is why I am consulting here. I doubt it as Draconic Sorcerers do have the extra HP, as well as constitution is generally a sorcerer's second best stat.
And again, this isn't really a crazy builds campaign. This is your average D&D game in terms of character power.
Edit: He's decided a while back on an eldritch knight. But you can still post here if you want to talk about the build I guess.
Draconic is a really underpowered subclass, and it's not really a gish class so when you try to make it one, you are just making a sub par subclass even worse.
The phb sorcerer subclasses are some of the weakest in the game, and draconic might have some extra amor and hp they don't have anything else that even makes them a gish. I would highly recommend that they don't pick that class if that's what they want. It's going to feel noticeably week/fragile compared to other characters and once they hit level 5 it's going to feel completely outclassed or have realized they are much better off playing as a caster, because that's what the subclass is.
Artificers, blade singer, hexblade, paladins, clerics (war domain in particular), valor bards, arcane trickster rogues, eldritch knight, rune knight, even a melee ranger, any of those would be better.
Nah, because swordmages use swords, and sorcerers don't have proficiency in martial weapons nor armor. If you want to be decent at both swords and magic, the build becomes MAD.
It'd be alleviated if you played paladin for the first level, then multi'd into sorcerer, he could even start as a high elf so he can pick up either GFB or BB from the get go to start living out that gish fantasy ASAP. Maybe if you wanna help your buddy out, toss him a pair of ogre gauntlets.
Have him look into bladesinger, that's a real good gish build too. You have little issues with stat conflicts because you pump up DEX anyways, and its multiattack is perhaps the most satisfying version of a spellstrike. Real item independent too!
Draconic Bloodline is not very good overall in its current form; it has no added spell list unlike newer sub-classes, and while its 1st level features are pretty good, everything after that is a bit "meh", not terrible, but you just don't have any extra attacks. You can use Shadow Blade for okay damage, and use quickened spell to cast on top of that but that's burning resources whereas a Bladesinger can do solid damage just by adding a cantrip every turn, and you can do attack + quicken with any sorcerer sub-class, so there are better options available even there now.
I've been experimenting with some homebrew to fix up Draconic Bloodline if you're interested, that makes it a little more Gish-y, by opening up the damage types (to match the new Dragonborn UA) and reducing the cost to attack and cast each turn, adds the ability to actually turn into a dragon (because why can Bards and Wizards do it, but Dragon sorcerers can't?), and also adds a spell list (limited by the public homebrew rules). But I wasn't planning to release that publicly without a lot more testing.
For current, official options you definitely want Bladesinger; if you can put some points into Charisma you could take a one level dip into vanilla Draconic Bloodline for the extra cantrips and spells and flavour, but it would mean delaying your Extra Attack.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
I plan to give any sorcerer a spell list if their subclass does not have it.
Come to think of it, it's a little weird that the Sorcerer doesn't have any overtly gishy subclass. Every other spellcaster has at least one.
Take a Tiefling Fiend Warlock, at level 3 take pact of the tome with the shillelagh and booming blade cantrips (I'd take guidance for the third). In your starting equipment make sure you take a club. Cast shillelagh on the club. You now have a light D8 magical weapon that you can use booming blade with.
Seriously though, Eldritch Knight, Hexblade Warlock, Bladesinger Wizard.
Bladesinger is a wizard who can fight in melee. Eldritch Knight is a fighter that can cast some spells. Hexblade is somewhere in between those extremes.
High Elves make a good basis for an Eldritch Knight or Bladesinger because they start with an extra cantrip. You can either leave your Eldritch Knight with high dexterity and use it as an archer/finesse weapon fighter, or move the +2 stat to strength and make it a conventional strength build. High Elf is also a good basis for Hexblade but remember to take a cantrip that doesn't depend on your casting stat because you will want to be boosting charisma for a Warlock.
Aside from the extra hit point per level, and as you mentioned, one small benefit to being a Draconic gish is, if you choose Red, Gold or Brass and have Elemental Affinity (Fire), you can add your CHR modifier to one roll of Green Flame Blade damage. If you do the Hexblade dip, you get martial weapons, shield and medium armour and can use CHR as your melee attack modifer, reducing your MADness. At 6/1, you can do GFB for 1d8 long sword + Chr Modifier for Hex Warrior + 1d8 GFB + CHR Modifer for Elemental Affinity +3 for Hexblade's Curse and another 1d8 + CHR modifier fire damage to an adjacent target. Not too shabby, but not a big difference compared to other options which can build in much the same way. I do like the flavour and I don't know if you can do better as a, mainly, sorcerer.
Here's an example: https://ddb.ac/characters/52314461/yLqJeP
A Hill Dwarf (with plenty of Tasha customization) nets you two martial weapons, and even more bonus health to bring you up to an effective d10 hit die. Pick up a Rapier, Wand, your draconic armor, shield, absorb elements, green flame blade, shadow blade, slow, fireball, and have your dwarf take up fire breathing and sword-swallowing instead of ale-swallowing.
Congrats, you’ve made a fire-based monoclassed sorcerer Gish, though you need good Dex, Con, and Cha to function.
I would consider playing a draconian sorcerer as a Gish in the right campaign. Meaning a campaign where no one is building their PCs using optimization guides and the DM isn’t running Chult or a similar campaign that’s designed to kill as many PCs as possible. It would be fun with Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, and Shield. Not to mention Sword Burst, Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp, Thunderwave, Dragon’s Breath, and other short range spells.
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At level 6, a Red, Gold, or Brass Dragon ancestry Draconic Sorcerer gets to add his Charisma modifier to the damage on Green Flame Blade.
Unfortunately, there's no Draconic Ancestry that gives a boost to the thunder damage of Booming Blade.
However, if you're a generous DM and you let this PC find a weapon that deals Acid, Lightning, Poison, or Cold damage (depending on what type of Sorcerer he is), then according to RAW, he should be adding his Charisma modifier to the damage when he casts [spell[Booming Blade[/spell] (after he reaches level 6) because the weapon damage is part of the damage dealt by the spell because the weapon attack is part of casting the spell. It would make sense for a Draconic Sorcerer gish to find a melee weapon that deals the damage type associated with this ancestry, and it would be a great way to boost this player's damage capabilities without making him overpowered. Unfortunately, because Sorcerers don't get many weapon proficiencies, he would need to either get the weapon proficiency from his race (a very good way to do it), or it would have to be a magical dagger/quarterstaff.
Being able to add both his Dexterity and his Charisma to Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade will give him a decent amount of damage, and having high Dexterity (maybe even his top stat if he chooses to mostly use his spell slots for buff spells and utility spells and not spells that rely on having a high charisma score) should give him a passable AC, especially if he's casting Shield fairly often (one of the many fantastic Sorcerer spells that he could take that wouldn't require a high charisma score). Once he reaches level 5, he'll be able to cast [spell[Haste[/spell] on himself, which will boost his AC even more and give him an extra attack each round, although only a weapon attack, not a cantrip. There are plenty of spells like Haste and Shield that he could use where his Charisma score wouldn't matter (Absorb Elements is another one of these spells and is extremely thematic in addition to being a very powerful spell).
Came late to this conversation looking for new gish options but since I haven't seen anyone mention the Stone Sorcerer UA I will. It was clearly intended to be the sorcerer's gish subclass giving you martial weapon and shield proficiency, some extra hp (same as Draconic bloodline), unarmored AC 13 + con mod, access to smite spells, and a reaction to teleport to an ally that's been hit by a melee attack and make your own melee attack with the same reaction against the attacker that does an extra d10 damage that scale with level. I accidently made this as one of like my first PC's with a newbie group as a dwarf earthbender and didn't know it was a gish, didn't even know what a gish was, and didn't know it wasn't official content yet, so I don't think I exactly built him optimally but I still had a blast when we skipped some levels and our DM gave me Dwarven Thrower. Coulda done with extra attack tho, but that wish probably doesn't have anything to do with game balance lol.
That is not what I would choose. I don't think the 13 you get from dragon sorc is good enough for this. The 13 is designed to make you survivable if you are caught in melee, it is not good enough to make you a character that melees regularly.
I would probably either multiclass or go Gith or Dwarf to get medium (or with multiclass heavy) armor, if you do that you can take any sorcerer and make it work. Mechanically shadow or clockwork are probably best for this though.
If he is willing to look outside sorcerer, bladesinger is really the best swordmage bar none.
I'm trying a rogue/sorcerer with the draconic bloodline (Gold) not sure how ill level him up yet gameplay and needs will dictate that since it's a 3 player adventure.