In addition to an expanded spell list, like Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul sorcerers, with the ability to swap those spells out, I really think certain metamagic options should actually be class features. Maybe Empowered Spell and Heightened Spell could be class features gained at certain levels and usable CHA or Proficiency Bonus times per long rest with the option to use sorcery points to use it more.
And there needs to be more metamagic options.
I'd quite like to see each subclass having its own unique metamagic option. Something you gain automatically at level 3 on top of the two you pick from the standard list.
This. 100% this. Make the classes features match the subclass. Have the draconic sorcerer get metamagic that lets them boost the spells that match their element. Perhaps spend sorcery points to add dice to a roll. Or make their spells of that element harder to resist.
You could have wild magic have an option to force a wild magic surge. Or have a random metamagic with a table of 6-8 potential effects it could give the spell.
storm could have a metamagics to arc lightning or thunder spells to hit other targets or sculpt the shape of the spells.
shadow feels like it it should have the ability to afflict status effects with sorcery points on spells. Have spells that turn light out in their targets space on hit. Or apply debuffs.
there could be a LOT of fun to be had that would keep them a full caster with their identity as someone who has coloured their magic with their origin.
I always kind of felt like Sorcs were solid already but needed just a few buffs.
Like, let them pick up 1-2 more cantrips as they level (especially since they have a very strict number of spells known), another meta-magic, maybe a sorc point or two, and make it 1 spell known per level instead of a max of 15. Maybe then throw in the option to have each subclass get access to some way to enhance that spell list (like Dragonblood getting to add Dragon's Breath as an 'always equipped' spell) and give them some better bonuses and you're good.
Like, for Wild Magic, your baseline ability is a free advantage once per LR, which is nice, but from then on... It only kicks in when the DM REMEMBERS/CARES to make you roll. Even if you want to complain about having bad stuff the fact is that you're just a sorc with nothing special going on so long as the DM either forgets or intentionally avoids it. No flavor, no fun, nothing. If the player could trigger it off at-will or it auto-triggered when you rolled a nat 1 it would be SO much more... well... Existent. And to top it off your level 14 upgrade is focused on this and ONLY this. So if it isn't triggering through forgetfulness/GM choice it's literally worthless. Even if they just made it so that you could choose when to trigger it off (instead of having it be random) or made it so you could reroll any roll it would make it much more viable and actually doing something.
It feels like WotC thought that the flexibility was SUCH a good boon that sorcs had to suck everywhere else, but overlooked how good twinned metamagic was. Can we get that as just, like, a baseline ability for sorcs? Cause basically everybody picks it because it's just so good in general. No point in having it if everybody picks it.
Bringing back the earlier but scaling capstone idea and the hurting yourself for more power idea, a couple concepts.
Sorcerous Restoration: when you short rest regain proficiency sorcery points, up to your maximum.
(Pretty functional as is, but obviously means a new capstone is needed)
Channel vitality: As a minor action expend a hit die to regain sorcery points (equal to the roll? CON modifier? PB?)
(Probably more thematic if sorc is moved to CON caster)
*had a thought on an alternate take on channel vitality as I was wrapping up the post: when casting a spell you have applied metamagic to you may spend a hit die instead of paying the SP
Bringing back the earlier but scaling capstone idea and the hurting yourself for more power idea, a couple concepts.
Sorcerous Restoration: when you short rest regain proficiency sorcery points, up to your maximum.
(Pretty functional as is, but obviously means a new capstone is needed)
Channel vitality: As a minor action expend a hit die to regain sorcery points (equal to the roll? CON modifier? PB?)
(Probably more thematic if sorc is moved to CON caster)
*had a thought on an alternate take on channel vitality as I was wrapping up the post: when casting a spell you have applied metamagic to you may spend a hit die instead of paying the SP
I like the idea of spending a hit die instead of SP for metamagic. But wonder if that’s too powerful (like giving you double the SP)
To my mind the problem is obvious. While more metamagic and sorcery points would certainly help the real problem is a severely limited selection - tied with the Paladin’s prepared spells, clearly better than the ranger’s measly 11 known and slightly superior to the the third casters 13 known and 3/4 cantrips. Raise the sorceror’s known spells to between 20-25 and they become a completely different character.
3E Psion: 36 powers known, 5 psionics feats, upto 393 psionic strength points, metamagic and powers both use PSPs hence the large number.
before the sorceror existed as a separate subclass the psion, optional as it was, was the only points based known caster. They basically killed it and replaced it with the sorceror then nerfed the sorceror by super limiting it’s known spells so about all it can do is metablast a very limited selection of spells. The sorceror should be on a par with the Wizard, cleric and bard not some souped up half caster.
Wizard School of Evocation stole Overchannel right out from under Sorcerer.
This. Also how on earth is Sculpt Spell not available to sorcerers? That right there to me is one thing that needs to be fixed. Sculpt Spell is the most metamagic thing ever, but it's a *wizard* ability. I mean, come on.
In terms of fixes to sorcerers, one of the things that might work is giving them "wildcard" spell slots. These might work a bit like Shadow Evocation from 3.5e, where you can cast a spell that is able to replicate other sorcerer spells from the same school. This should cost sorcery points of course, but it plays into the theme that sorcerers can just break the usual rules when it comes to magic.
The other thing is doing more origins like the Divine Soul origin - giving the sorcerer access to spells from non-Arcane class lists is a good way to make them different to the Wizard.
To my mind the problem is obvious. While more metamagic and sorcery points would certainly help the real problem is a severely limited selection - tied with the Paladin’s prepared spells, clearly better than the ranger’s measly 11 known and slightly superior to the the third casters 13 known and 3/4 cantrips. Raise the sorceror’s known spells to between 20-25 and they become a completely different character.
3E Psion: 36 powers known, 5 psionics feats, upto 393 psionic strength points, metamagic and powers both use PSPs hence the large number.
before the sorceror existed as a separate subclass the psion, optional as it was, was the only points based known caster. They basically killed it and replaced it with the sorceror then nerfed the sorceror by super limiting it’s known spells so about all it can do is metablast a very limited selection of spells. The sorceror should be on a par with the Wizard, cleric and bard not some souped up half caster.
And Tasha’s Sorcerers, like clockwork Soul went a long way in fixing that as they add an additional 10 spells known. So there is hope that 5.5E will do the same or more.
That would be sweet if the older subclasses got updated that way. Even 5 more spells known to get them up to 20 would be huge. 25 known would be more than enough.
To be honest, I'd be happy with a list of subclass spells like Clerics which are known automatically and a way to regain Sorcery Points on a short rest *without* sacrificing spell slots
I would hate for the Sorcerer to increase the number of spells known. Limited spells known is one way the Sorcerer is distinguished from other casters.
To compensate, they should get more sorcery points.
The trouble is that in 5e now literally every caster is a spontaneous caster. No one prepares spells by slot any more. So limited known spells is just a straight out nerf to sorcerers.
Origin based spell lists are a great way to make subclasses distinct while fixing the most dire problem with sorcerers, which is zero utility due to the stupidly small number of known spells.
When the best way to play a class is to multiclass, you know there's a balance issue. No one recommends multi classing a wizard.
I would hate for the Sorcerer to increase the number of spells known. Limited spells known is one way the Sorcerer is distinguished from other casters.
To compensate, they should get more sorcery points.
I think how they handled it in Tasha’s for the Clockwork and Aberrant subclasses was a good idea. And allowing them to swap out spells with spells of limited spell schools gives them versatility. I think all sorcerers should have this.
And the idea of luigrein on post #92 about spending hit die to gain Sorcery Points (although I would probably limit it to a number of hit die equal to half your sorcerer level, rounded down) is also a good idea. Edit: I’m doing a bad job of paraphrasing their post so I will quote the relevant part here:
Channel vitality: As a minor action expend a hit die to regain sorcery points (equal to the roll? CON modifier? PB?)
(Probably more thematic if sorc is moved to CON caster)
*had a thought on an alternate take on channel vitality as I was wrapping up the post: when casting a spell you have applied metamagic to you may spend a hit die instead of paying the SP
And i think certain metamagics should be incorporated into core sorcerer class features, and then more metamagic options added. They should be able to twist magic like a clown making balloon animals.
Cause Sorcerers WERE meant to be casters. Yet, despite all the limitations of a wizard (no melee combat or armor for examples) they can have the same level of spells known as a non-caster class. EK's arguably get it 'better' because they get to pick from the wizard list instead of the sorcerer list. This isn't to say that sorcs don't have some major magic edges over them (EX: EK's can only get up to level 4 and they have to be 19/20 to do so), but that a pure magic class is in the same league as a subclass of a non-magic class and is LOSING in regards to number of spells known to a class that isn't even a pure caster class (Bard) and a class that can at least have some solid melee capabilities (Druid) is sad. Sorcs basically have to pick their spells extremely, extremely, carefully and have to focus heavily on either combat or support/non-combat because they can't swap their spells out (except for ONE at level up) and their spell list is so tight they can't afford any waste.
While meta-magic can CERTAINLY be potent it's also just so limited that it can't make up the difference. Every sorc is going to take twinned because it's easily the best/most useful, but that basically leaves you with one other option, 2 if you get to level 10, and 3 if you hit the extremely high level 17. Can you imagine if Battle Masters basically only got 2 maneuvers and only had 4 at level 20? I know that's not a 1 to 1 comparison, but the point here is that it's a massive limitation. It's part of why MMA is basically going to be required for sorcs from now on. Because you NEED those extra options to really bring yourself into line.
Simply put, Sorcs are swinging below the weight class they should be in and MM just doesn't make up the difference. Even if it could it would only do so once you got to the REALLY high levels or dedicated yourself into a more support-focused role and, even then, you're fighting tooth and nail against the spell limit.
In my current game I've got a divine soul Sorc who is basically a WHM at this point. I've had to drop both absorb elements and shield to make way for support spells. I'm debating dropping Animate objects and possibly chain lightning as well because I'm lacking in lower-level spell options while also trying to keep some upwards progression. I had to sacrifice a LOT so I could get Holy Weapon for our paladin (because it's both fitting RP-wise and makes him squee with delight) and Stone Wall (which is insanely helpful since we have a town management section of the game and being able to generate raw resources is useful) all because the spells known is JUST SO LIMITED!
Sorcs really need a buff here. I'm not saying they should be in the same league as wizards, but at least a few more would be a major plus.
This. 100% this. Make the classes features match the subclass. Have the draconic sorcerer get metamagic that lets them boost the spells that match their element. Perhaps spend sorcery points to add dice to a roll. Or make their spells of that element harder to resist.
You could have wild magic have an option to force a wild magic surge. Or have a random metamagic with a table of 6-8 potential effects it could give the spell.
storm could have a metamagics to arc lightning or thunder spells to hit other targets or sculpt the shape of the spells.
shadow feels like it it should have the ability to afflict status effects with sorcery points on spells. Have spells that turn light out in their targets space on hit. Or apply debuffs.
there could be a LOT of fun to be had that would keep them a full caster with their identity as someone who has coloured their magic with their origin.
I always kind of felt like Sorcs were solid already but needed just a few buffs.
Like, let them pick up 1-2 more cantrips as they level (especially since they have a very strict number of spells known), another meta-magic, maybe a sorc point or two, and make it 1 spell known per level instead of a max of 15. Maybe then throw in the option to have each subclass get access to some way to enhance that spell list (like Dragonblood getting to add Dragon's Breath as an 'always equipped' spell) and give them some better bonuses and you're good.
Like, for Wild Magic, your baseline ability is a free advantage once per LR, which is nice, but from then on... It only kicks in when the DM REMEMBERS/CARES to make you roll. Even if you want to complain about having bad stuff the fact is that you're just a sorc with nothing special going on so long as the DM either forgets or intentionally avoids it. No flavor, no fun, nothing. If the player could trigger it off at-will or it auto-triggered when you rolled a nat 1 it would be SO much more... well... Existent. And to top it off your level 14 upgrade is focused on this and ONLY this. So if it isn't triggering through forgetfulness/GM choice it's literally worthless. Even if they just made it so that you could choose when to trigger it off (instead of having it be random) or made it so you could reroll any roll it would make it much more viable and actually doing something.
It feels like WotC thought that the flexibility was SUCH a good boon that sorcs had to suck everywhere else, but overlooked how good twinned metamagic was. Can we get that as just, like, a baseline ability for sorcs? Cause basically everybody picks it because it's just so good in general. No point in having it if everybody picks it.
Bringing back the earlier but scaling capstone idea and the hurting yourself for more power idea, a couple concepts.
Sorcerous Restoration: when you short rest regain proficiency sorcery points, up to your maximum.
(Pretty functional as is, but obviously means a new capstone is needed)
Channel vitality: As a minor action expend a hit die to regain sorcery points (equal to the roll? CON modifier? PB?)
(Probably more thematic if sorc is moved to CON caster)
*had a thought on an alternate take on channel vitality as I was wrapping up the post: when casting a spell you have applied metamagic to you may spend a hit die instead of paying the SP
Wizard School of Evocation stole Overchannel right out from under Sorcerer.
I like the idea of spending a hit die instead of SP for metamagic. But wonder if that’s too powerful (like giving you double the SP)
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Wizard (L20) : 46+ known spells + 5+ cantrips (with a cantrip book), 25 prepped spells, 22 slots
Bard (L20): 22 known spells + 4 cantrips, 22 slots, light armor and some martial ability
Sorceror (L20): 15 known spells + 6 cantrips, 22 slots, 4 types of metamagic, sorcery points
Cleric/Druid (L20): 50+ known spells, 4/5 cantrips, bonus spells, 25 prepared spells, 22 slots
To my mind the problem is obvious. While more metamagic and sorcery points would certainly help the real problem is a severely limited selection - tied with the Paladin’s prepared spells, clearly better than the ranger’s measly 11 known and slightly superior to the the third casters 13 known and 3/4 cantrips. Raise the sorceror’s known spells to between 20-25 and they become a completely different character.
for comparison:
2e Psion: all 6 Disciplines (areas) 10 sciences ( higher level equivalents) 25 Devotions (lower level equivalents) 5 defenses (cantrip equivalents?)
3E Psion: 36 powers known, 5 psionics feats, upto 393 psionic strength points, metamagic and powers both use PSPs hence the large number.
before the sorceror existed as a separate subclass the psion, optional as it was, was the only points based known caster. They basically killed it and replaced it with the sorceror then nerfed the sorceror by super limiting it’s known spells so about all it can do is metablast a very limited selection of spells. The sorceror should be on a par with the Wizard, cleric and bard not some souped up half caster.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
This. Also how on earth is Sculpt Spell not available to sorcerers? That right there to me is one thing that needs to be fixed. Sculpt Spell is the most metamagic thing ever, but it's a *wizard* ability. I mean, come on.
In terms of fixes to sorcerers, one of the things that might work is giving them "wildcard" spell slots. These might work a bit like Shadow Evocation from 3.5e, where you can cast a spell that is able to replicate other sorcerer spells from the same school. This should cost sorcery points of course, but it plays into the theme that sorcerers can just break the usual rules when it comes to magic.
The other thing is doing more origins like the Divine Soul origin - giving the sorcerer access to spells from non-Arcane class lists is a good way to make them different to the Wizard.
And Tasha’s Sorcerers, like clockwork Soul went a long way in fixing that as they add an additional 10 spells known. So there is hope that 5.5E will do the same or more.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
That would be sweet if the older subclasses got updated that way. Even 5 more spells known to get them up to 20 would be huge. 25 known would be more than enough.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
To be honest, I'd be happy with a list of subclass spells like Clerics which are known automatically and a way to regain Sorcery Points on a short rest *without* sacrificing spell slots
While I won't deny that the limited spells is defining, it shouldn't be in the same league as classes that weren't even meant to be casters.
The trouble is that in 5e now literally every caster is a spontaneous caster. No one prepares spells by slot any more. So limited known spells is just a straight out nerf to sorcerers.
Origin based spell lists are a great way to make subclasses distinct while fixing the most dire problem with sorcerers, which is zero utility due to the stupidly small number of known spells.
When the best way to play a class is to multiclass, you know there's a balance issue. No one recommends multi classing a wizard.
Because Sorcerers WERE meant to be casters - They should be in the same league as Clerics, Druids, and Wizards.
This means they need a little more range, and not necessarily at the cost of other class abilities.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
I think how they handled it in Tasha’s for the Clockwork and Aberrant subclasses was a good idea. And allowing them to swap out spells with spells of limited spell schools gives them versatility. I think all sorcerers should have this.
And the idea of luigrein on post #92 about spending hit die to gain Sorcery Points (although I would probably limit it to a number of hit die equal to half your sorcerer level, rounded down) is also a good idea. Edit: I’m doing a bad job of paraphrasing their post so I will quote the relevant part here:
And i think certain metamagics should be incorporated into core sorcerer class features, and then more metamagic options added. They should be able to twist magic like a clown making balloon animals.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Cause Sorcerers WERE meant to be casters. Yet, despite all the limitations of a wizard (no melee combat or armor for examples) they can have the same level of spells known as a non-caster class. EK's arguably get it 'better' because they get to pick from the wizard list instead of the sorcerer list. This isn't to say that sorcs don't have some major magic edges over them (EX: EK's can only get up to level 4 and they have to be 19/20 to do so), but that a pure magic class is in the same league as a subclass of a non-magic class and is LOSING in regards to number of spells known to a class that isn't even a pure caster class (Bard) and a class that can at least have some solid melee capabilities (Druid) is sad. Sorcs basically have to pick their spells extremely, extremely, carefully and have to focus heavily on either combat or support/non-combat because they can't swap their spells out (except for ONE at level up) and their spell list is so tight they can't afford any waste.
While meta-magic can CERTAINLY be potent it's also just so limited that it can't make up the difference. Every sorc is going to take twinned because it's easily the best/most useful, but that basically leaves you with one other option, 2 if you get to level 10, and 3 if you hit the extremely high level 17. Can you imagine if Battle Masters basically only got 2 maneuvers and only had 4 at level 20? I know that's not a 1 to 1 comparison, but the point here is that it's a massive limitation. It's part of why MMA is basically going to be required for sorcs from now on. Because you NEED those extra options to really bring yourself into line.
Simply put, Sorcs are swinging below the weight class they should be in and MM just doesn't make up the difference. Even if it could it would only do so once you got to the REALLY high levels or dedicated yourself into a more support-focused role and, even then, you're fighting tooth and nail against the spell limit.
In my current game I've got a divine soul Sorc who is basically a WHM at this point. I've had to drop both absorb elements and shield to make way for support spells. I'm debating dropping Animate objects and possibly chain lightning as well because I'm lacking in lower-level spell options while also trying to keep some upwards progression. I had to sacrifice a LOT so I could get Holy Weapon for our paladin (because it's both fitting RP-wise and makes him squee with delight) and Stone Wall (which is insanely helpful since we have a town management section of the game and being able to generate raw resources is useful) all because the spells known is JUST SO LIMITED!
Sorcs really need a buff here. I'm not saying they should be in the same league as wizards, but at least a few more would be a major plus.
make wild magic crazier, please.
I like character creation!
But categorically do not add magic missile to other classes.
Edit: That was a Brainfart, Don't add Wild Magic Surge to other Subclasses.
The best way to probably do that is to actually spell out how often Wild Magic rolls should be
I like the initial d20 for leveled spells...this makes it pretty safe to cast your mage armor at the beginning of the day
But after using Tides of Chaos, it should be *every* leveled spell causes a Wild Magic surge