I'd actually argue that sorcerer has a better claim on martial capabilities, it's only identity currently is "Innate Combat Mage", at least in my experience.
Yeah, I’ve heard that along with the bit about being the blaster but it’s not really any better in combat than the Wizard. Yes the sorceror has metamagic to do things like twin spells or enlarge them etc but given it’s limited spell selection that doesn’t make it better just not quite evens it out.
The sorceror was never intended to be a skill monkey but, to my mind, it’s never really been clear what the sorceror’s intended role was and is. In order to fix the sorceror I suspect this first issue of what it’s official role is has to be decided and made clear. Any discussion of the bard probably should be moved to the bard forum, I brought up the psion only because, to my mind, they had the role of points based known “spell” caster first and therefore it’s successes and failures might help the discussion
Quite right. I've always heard that the Sorcerer is the blaster, but I don't know about all that. They barely get any features to suggest such a role. They're like slightly tougher Wizards, but not tough enough to really be tough.
My point is that a simple second level spell can cancel invisibility, but not stealth.
Oh! I see.
But Pass Without Trace will basically make you a professional sneak with no skill investment. So if, as was the case in 3.5, your class's whole gimmick was "I can max out, like, 12 skills," you have to question why you'd max out Stealth (which was two skills back then). And the same could be said for every skill, basically. Why max out Perception when you can just summon beasties with special senses and huge bonuses? I mean, I'm not gonna list every single skill here, there were a million. But they eventually introduced Skill Tricks to try to provide any incentive for someone to play a skill monkey, because it just wasn't worth giving up good martial or spell progression normally.
All of which is to say: in the sort of binary "weapons or spells" framework we have, it can be shown that a third option -- "weapons or spells or skills" -- isn't worthwhile. If we're looking for a niche for the Sorcerer, then, we can assume that "skill monkey" isn't good, but I don't think anyone wanted that for Sorcerer anyway.
I think this talk of finding a niche for the Sorcerer is quite literally a solution in search of a problem. We don't need it. There's no reason to turn our house upside-down looking for things we can duct tape just because we have this shiny red duct tape that we inherited from the house's previous owner. Just put the duct tape away. The house is fine.
Let me ask this of everyone- What do you see the sorceror’s role being and why?
for me he is the multiclass specialist. He doesn’t have the spell selection to match well with the bard or Wizard, he doesn’t have the combat abilities/proficiencies to match well against the martial bards, warlocks or bladesinger, but he makes a great addition to any class that wants/needs to boost limited spellcasting abilities and most of those multiclasses drastically improve their combat abilities/survivability. If matched to a half caster it effectively makes them a much stronger spellcaster as well (example: a S6/R14 has spells that max at L3/4L but slots that max at L7 and knowing a total of 5 cantrips and 13 spells between the 2 classes allowing for a lot of upcasting and improved spell use/selection).
Let me ask this of everyone- What do you see the sorceror’s role being and why?
The Sorcerer is the Charisma based full caster. Wizard is Intelligence, Cleric is Wisdom. They each get to be good at a few skills associated with their ability score. Since religion and nature feel different enough we also get Druid.
But wait! Bard is the Charisma caster now. And it feels better because it actually gets features and lore relating to being charismatic. Warlock gets most of the scary side of that and Bard gets the friendly side. Warlock also gets the magical body mod stuff.
There is no niche for Sorcerers. They exist to fill out a spreadsheet, and the spreadsheet is already full.
I feel they fill a great role as support, especially Divine. Metamagic to twin Haste, Shield of Faith or perhaps Fairy Fire, maybe? Distant spell a Cure Wounds or Spare the Dying? Extend your Polymorph on the bad guy, so he stays a turtle while you flee for not one hour, but 2. hey get very few spells, but the metamagic options lets them do the work of 2 many times with Twinned spells and such, making them able to get the most out of the few spells they get.
My only wish for change with the class falls under getting more spells ready somehow. Otherwise, the mechanics, to anyone who is able to think creatively, are not so bad. I see a lot of hate towards the class and I will say, I think a lot of it is unwarranted.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I honestly don't see them having a valid role anymore. Their role was spontaneous caster, but that's all casters in 5e. Metamagic should have stayed a feat like it always has been.
Thematically they could easily be merged with warlock. The subclass themes are identical, and both function as 'magic blasters'. Draconic sorcerers can already be made via pacts which is the definition of a warlock. Simply switch the lore to 'your powers were gained through a pact or bloodline'.
There are definitely other classes which deserve a spot far more than the sorcerer, like warlord or swordmage.
That will do the opposite. People will still use what spells are left to optimize their non-spell centric class aspects.
What you maybe wnat to do is tigten the origins spell affiliations so that instead of a standard sorceror spell list, and certain origons potentially adding some spells to it; the origin replaces/exchanges certain spells to bring the overall list closer into alignment with the point of having that origin; so a fey bloodline would add more charm spells in but also remove some blaster spells, and a red draconic origin would add more fire-type spells in, but remove all the acid and poison and cold ones out; etc. so that what you are left with is a tighter spell selection around the flavor of your origin type.
Gonna hard disagree here. They just need more spells known, whether mandated or chosen. Wizards just need to really lean into the whole customise their spells thing. What we have is a good start but they need a larger selection of metamagic to pick from, and more slots to fill with them. A boost to sorcery points or a means to recover some on a short rest would be welcome too. Slap on a "regain proficiency bonus sorcery points on a short rest" and that will make people much more willing to lean into the fantasy of a sorcerer.
They just need to turn the thing that makes a sorcerer different up to 11.
Sorcerers need a tight concept. They are like magical mutants. So, we’re talking about Ice Man, the Human Torch, Nightcrawler, etc. The class earns a spot in core only when this tight concept is maintained. However, rather than select spells around a tight concept, most players choose spells to optmize. I’m not sure how rules can be rewritten to change that.
I always got the impression that this was the idea, yeah. But the 5e Warlock can get way closer, with invocations like x-ray vision or spider climbing. Their list of superpowers and weird mutations is way more diverse than what Sorcerers can get. At least the new Sorcerous Origins are getting flavor tables, but I mean that's bare minimum, right?
Sorcerers need a tight concept. They are like magical mutants. So, we’re talking about Ice Man, the Human Torch, Nightcrawler, etc. The class earns a spot in core only when this tight concept is maintained. However, rather than select spells around a tight concept, most players choose spells to optmize. I’m not sure how rules can be rewritten to change that.
I always got the impression that this was the idea, yeah. But the 5e Warlock can get way closer, with invocations like x-ray vision or spider climbing. Their list of superpowers and weird mutations is way more diverse than what Sorcerers can get. At least the new Sorcerous Origins are getting flavor tables, but I mean that's bare minimum, right?
Post-Tasha's you can do a pretty viable psychic sorcerer, and elemental blaster has always worked. Harder to find a good concept that includes Polymorph and that extends properly over 20 levels in terms of spell selection though, and Polymorph is just crazy useful.
edit: I've been thinking about a witchcraft flavour sorcerer and Polymorph would certainly fit. The irony is that theme-wise witchcraft would be a typical warlock concept and warlocks do get a good number of relevant spells, but they don't get Polymorph (have to wait for True Polymorph) and sorcerers still have a wider selection of spells I feel are appropriate (especially Divine Souls, who are a really good thematic fit too).
I think the biggest problem is the low limit on the number of spells known. The sorceror max’s out at 15 which is the same as the Paladin can prepare. The Eldritch knight and arcane trickster can each learn 13 spells and only the ranger is significantly lower at 11 max. That is ridiculous. The other known spell full caster is the Bard who gets 22. I would move the sorceror (and the bard) up to 1 new spell learned each level for 20 spells + 1 spell known/learned/invented for each bonus point of charisma so a max of 25 spells known. I would also give them a additional sorcery point for each charisma bonus point for a max of 25 sorcery points. Then add in some of the Wizard school abilities like the sculpt spells ability of the evoker as additional metamagic options they could take.
In addition to an expanded spell list, like Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul sorcerers, with the ability to swap those spells out, I really think certain metamagic options should actually be class features. Maybe Empowered Spell and Heightened Spell could be class features gained at certain levels and usable CHA or Proficiency Bonus times per long rest with the option to use sorcery points to use it more.
In addition to an expanded spell list, like Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul sorcerers, with the ability to swap those spells out, I really think certain metamagic options should actually be class features. Maybe Empowered Spell and Heightened Spell could be class features gained at certain levels and usable CHA or Proficiency Bonus times per long rest with the option to use sorcery points to use it more.
And there needs to be more metamagic options.
I'd quite like to see each subclass having its own unique metamagic option. Something you gain automatically at level 3 on top of the two you pick from the standard list.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
The Rogue 14th level feature comes pretty close.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
But it isn’t really a skill per se even if the blind sense ability functions more like a skill than a spell.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yeah, I’ve heard that along with the bit about being the blaster but it’s not really any better in combat than the Wizard. Yes the sorceror has metamagic to do things like twin spells or enlarge them etc but given it’s limited spell selection that doesn’t make it better just not quite evens it out.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
A sorcerer is resigned to be the blaster, mainly because they can't even think of approaching the other caters in terms of utility.
Oh! I see.
But Pass Without Trace will basically make you a professional sneak with no skill investment. So if, as was the case in 3.5, your class's whole gimmick was "I can max out, like, 12 skills," you have to question why you'd max out Stealth (which was two skills back then). And the same could be said for every skill, basically. Why max out Perception when you can just summon beasties with special senses and huge bonuses? I mean, I'm not gonna list every single skill here, there were a million. But they eventually introduced Skill Tricks to try to provide any incentive for someone to play a skill monkey, because it just wasn't worth giving up good martial or spell progression normally.
All of which is to say: in the sort of binary "weapons or spells" framework we have, it can be shown that a third option -- "weapons or spells or skills" -- isn't worthwhile. If we're looking for a niche for the Sorcerer, then, we can assume that "skill monkey" isn't good, but I don't think anyone wanted that for Sorcerer anyway.
I think this talk of finding a niche for the Sorcerer is quite literally a solution in search of a problem. We don't need it. There's no reason to turn our house upside-down looking for things we can duct tape just because we have this shiny red duct tape that we inherited from the house's previous owner. Just put the duct tape away. The house is fine.
Let me ask this of everyone- What do you see the sorceror’s role being and why?
for me he is the multiclass specialist. He doesn’t have the spell selection to match well with the bard or Wizard, he doesn’t have the combat abilities/proficiencies to match well against the martial bards, warlocks or bladesinger, but he makes a great addition to any class that wants/needs to boost limited spellcasting abilities and most of those multiclasses drastically improve their combat abilities/survivability. If matched to a half caster it effectively makes them a much stronger spellcaster as well (example: a S6/R14 has spells that max at L3/4L but slots that max at L7 and knowing a total of 5 cantrips and 13 spells between the 2 classes allowing for a lot of upcasting and improved spell use/selection).
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The Sorcerer is the Charisma based full caster. Wizard is Intelligence, Cleric is Wisdom. They each get to be good at a few skills associated with their ability score. Since religion and nature feel different enough we also get Druid.
But wait! Bard is the Charisma caster now. And it feels better because it actually gets features and lore relating to being charismatic. Warlock gets most of the scary side of that and Bard gets the friendly side. Warlock also gets the magical body mod stuff.
There is no niche for Sorcerers. They exist to fill out a spreadsheet, and the spreadsheet is already full.
I feel they fill a great role as support, especially Divine. Metamagic to twin Haste, Shield of Faith or perhaps Fairy Fire, maybe? Distant spell a Cure Wounds or Spare the Dying? Extend your Polymorph on the bad guy, so he stays a turtle while you flee for not one hour, but 2. hey get very few spells, but the metamagic options lets them do the work of 2 many times with Twinned spells and such, making them able to get the most out of the few spells they get.
My only wish for change with the class falls under getting more spells ready somehow. Otherwise, the mechanics, to anyone who is able to think creatively, are not so bad. I see a lot of hate towards the class and I will say, I think a lot of it is unwarranted.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I honestly don't see them having a valid role anymore. Their role was spontaneous caster, but that's all casters in 5e. Metamagic should have stayed a feat like it always has been.
Thematically they could easily be merged with warlock. The subclass themes are identical, and both function as 'magic blasters'. Draconic sorcerers can already be made via pacts which is the definition of a warlock. Simply switch the lore to 'your powers were gained through a pact or bloodline'.
There are definitely other classes which deserve a spot far more than the sorcerer, like warlord or swordmage.
Making them less spell centric.
That will do the opposite. People will still use what spells are left to optimize their non-spell centric class aspects.
What you maybe wnat to do is tigten the origins spell affiliations so that instead of a standard sorceror spell list, and certain origons potentially adding some spells to it; the origin replaces/exchanges certain spells to bring the overall list closer into alignment with the point of having that origin; so a fey bloodline would add more charm spells in but also remove some blaster spells, and a red draconic origin would add more fire-type spells in, but remove all the acid and poison and cold ones out; etc. so that what you are left with is a tighter spell selection around the flavor of your origin type.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Gonna hard disagree here. They just need more spells known, whether mandated or chosen. Wizards just need to really lean into the whole customise their spells thing. What we have is a good start but they need a larger selection of metamagic to pick from, and more slots to fill with them. A boost to sorcery points or a means to recover some on a short rest would be welcome too. Slap on a "regain proficiency bonus sorcery points on a short rest" and that will make people much more willing to lean into the fantasy of a sorcerer.
They just need to turn the thing that makes a sorcerer different up to 11.
I always got the impression that this was the idea, yeah. But the 5e Warlock can get way closer, with invocations like x-ray vision or spider climbing. Their list of superpowers and weird mutations is way more diverse than what Sorcerers can get. At least the new Sorcerous Origins are getting flavor tables, but I mean that's bare minimum, right?
Post-Tasha's you can do a pretty viable psychic sorcerer, and elemental blaster has always worked. Harder to find a good concept that includes Polymorph and that extends properly over 20 levels in terms of spell selection though, and Polymorph is just crazy useful.
edit: I've been thinking about a witchcraft flavour sorcerer and Polymorph would certainly fit. The irony is that theme-wise witchcraft would be a typical warlock concept and warlocks do get a good number of relevant spells, but they don't get Polymorph (have to wait for True Polymorph) and sorcerers still have a wider selection of spells I feel are appropriate (especially Divine Souls, who are a really good thematic fit too).
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I think the biggest problem is the low limit on the number of spells known. The sorceror max’s out at 15 which is the same as the Paladin can prepare. The Eldritch knight and arcane trickster can each learn 13 spells and only the ranger is significantly lower at 11 max. That is ridiculous. The other known spell full caster is the Bard who gets 22. I would move the sorceror (and the bard) up to 1 new spell learned each level for 20 spells + 1 spell known/learned/invented for each bonus point of charisma so a max of 25 spells known. I would also give them a additional sorcery point for each charisma bonus point for a max of 25 sorcery points. Then add in some of the Wizard school abilities like the sculpt spells ability of the evoker as additional metamagic options they could take.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
In addition to an expanded spell list, like Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul sorcerers, with the ability to swap those spells out, I really think certain metamagic options should actually be class features. Maybe Empowered Spell and Heightened Spell could be class features gained at certain levels and usable CHA or Proficiency Bonus times per long rest with the option to use sorcery points to use it more.
And there needs to be more metamagic options.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I'd quite like to see each subclass having its own unique metamagic option. Something you gain automatically at level 3 on top of the two you pick from the standard list.