As an addendum, Personally I would like to see augmented features for the older subclasses more than additional spells. The draconic sorcerer for example I would like to see at level 6 the feature allow you to spend 1 sorcery point to gain resistance to their damage type and for their spells to ignore resistance to that damage type and maybe at level 17 or 18 have it give immunity to their damage type and their spells bypass immunity or treat immunity are resistance at the least. For the shadow sorcerer have the hound be beefier, or able to target a second creature, or summon a second one, etc. Or maybe increase the area of their darkness spell, things like that. Ability augmentations that enhance the roles that the subclasses are really mean to fill, striker for the draconic, controller for the shadow sorcerer, etc. 

I've recently finished playing a Draconic sorcerer based on a modified sub-class of mine and I definitely agree that it needs more than just a spell list; the added spell lists help with the general lack of spell picks that Sorcerers get early on, it lets you build up a bit more variety and flexibility, but still nowhere near what a Wizard can do (especially if they take a lot of rituals to have even more always available spells). However in terms of raw strength the features matter more.

Draconic starts out okay thanks to its built in AC and bonus HP, but its later features just aren't that good, even the built in flight is a bit "meh". The damage resistance option of elemental affinity in particular is a real head-scratcher as to trigger it you need to cast a spell of the same type, but that probably means wasting a spell because enemies that deal a lot of one damage type usually are resistant or immune to it, so I made that any spell for 2 sorcery points instead, and added a slightly gish option for making a bonus attack more cheaply for another option on build/playstyle. Also added access to true polymorph for turning into a dragon, as it's insane that the Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer is one of the few casters that can't (when literally any Bard can by smacking their head against a drum), plus dumping a load of sorcery points to gain warlock style limited casting while changed.

One thing I think that keeps getting forgotten is that sorcerers are not supposed to be flexible like wizards or bards, they are specialists. now specialists should have some use outside of that specialization but not to the extend of wizards or bards. I think they need either added spells or augmented subclass abilities. On the draconic, I forgot that elemental affinity is triggered by a spell, we have never played it that way at my tables we always allow it to be triggered as a bonus action whenever the character wants. I think they the older subclasses dont need much to bring them up. Like I said for draconic sorcerers add bypassing resistance to elemental affinity for a sorcery point and up it to bypass immunity or treat immunity as resistance at like level 17 or 18 and without added spells they tie warlocks for being the best arcane striker out there. Shadow sorcerers could also be easily augmented and fixed without adding spells. Or just give them an extra spell known at each spell level tier and call it. 

I think I disagree that older subclasses should have expanded spell lists. I think it makes sense for a couple of them but the real ability they need is more akin to the Psionic Spells ability where they're getting to add free metamagic to their spells.

Give them all some metamagic and a system by which to apply that metamagic for free. Eg. Give draconic sorcerers the ability to Transmuted spell or Empower spell a number of times a day equal to their proficiency. Or. If they add another metamagic to a spell they can also add transmuted for free. Or something along those lines. Something that let's them more freely pick the damage spells they want and reflavor it to their particular element. But that also gives them the tools to fight stuff immune to that element.

That way you're doubling down on what makes that subclass great while increasing their versatility... in that role. This then frees up their spell selection because a single spell can do more work, they don't need to pick redundant element options and have more choices for other stuff.

I think something like this would do the trick:

Draconic Energy Specialist.

-You learn the Transmuted Spell metamagic option. 

-You gain 1 sorcery points to spend on Metamagic (these points are added to any sorcery points you have from another source but can be used only on Metamagic). You regain all spent sorcery points when you finish a long rest.

-You can apply Transmuted Spell metamagic to spells otherwise also modified by another metamagic option. When doing so, there is no sorcery point cost to apply Transmuted spell if the element you are changing it into matches your draconic ancestor's damage type.

I think being able to swap metamagics at a long rest would be a huge boon and would probably reinforce the concept of sorcerers as meta-magicians. Adding expanded spell lists is just the easiest and a very measurable way to bring to power level up to be more on par with the newer subclasses. 

This is a cool experiment, but let's be honest...you picked rockstar spells for the additional spells for the Draconis and Shadow sorcerers.  Yes, AM sorcerers get more spells, but with one or two exceptions they are sorta not so great, and only get better when the feature to swap them for other spells upon gaining a level is used.  

I think the takeaway here is having more spells is cool, but having more of the RIGHT spells is waaaaaaay better.  If you did the same experiment with an AM sorcerer and instead of just giving them the listed spells, let them choose the spells (even assuming you use only the same Divination and Enchantment schools that are currently allowed), the class would be leaps and bounds better.  

Imagine if this was the known spells list for AM: 

1st - Mind sliver, Dissonant Whispers, Silvery Barbs
3rd - Hold person, detect thoughts
5th- Enemies Abound, Sending
etc, etc

That would be a killer set-up.  And yes, you can eventually get to this list, but it will take several levels to do so since you can only change 1 per each level up.  If you were able to open this up to other schools of magic for other themed spells...oh boy.    

Quote from Stratoburn >>

Imagine if this was the known spells list for AM: 

1st - Mind sliver, Dissonant Whispers, Silvery Barbs
3rd - Hold person, detect thoughts
5th- Fast Friends, Sending
etc, etc

That would be a killer set-up.  And yes, you can eventually get to this list, but it will take several levels to do so since you can only change 1 per each level up.  If you were able to open this up to other schools of magic for other themed spells...oh boy.    

Thats.. not really true. You do in effect get to freely choose one new spell every time you level up. And, if you compare how many spells you get and how many you have been able to swap out thats..that's... the same thing.

Like, at level 3 you'll have swapped out one of your 1st levels, maybe 2 if your DM in lenient, and then at 3 get 2 new spells one of which you swap immediately. Then swap the other at 4th, so by 5th level you get 2 new 3rd level spels one of which you swap immediately, the next at 6th, etc.

It's a clunkier way of saying you get to pick a spell every time you level up, but in practice that's how it works.

Actually the rockstar spells for draconic would be the ones Solasta uses: Shield, misty step, counter spell, greater invisibility and dominate person... I didn't use those because misty step, counter spell and greater invisibility are fantastic but not terribly thematic for a dragon in my opinion, but I can see the argument for them. Also the choice of spells was made at the outset because we weren't playing a campaign that would have leveling, this is a canned one-shot we use to test UA and home-brew stuff. So we did have to make some concessions in favor of expediency.

Quote from Ravnodaus >>

Quote from Stratoburn >>

Imagine if this was the known spells list for AM: 

1st - Mind sliver, Dissonant Whispers, Silvery Barbs
3rd - Hold person, detect thoughts
5th- Fast Friends, Sending
etc, etc

That would be a killer set-up.  And yes, you can eventually get to this list, but it will take several levels to do so since you can only change 1 per each level up.  If you were able to open this up to other schools of magic for other themed spells...oh boy.    

Thats.. not really true. You do in effect get to freely choose one new spell every time you level up. And, if you compare how many spells you get and how many you have been able to swap out thats..that's... the same thing.

Like, at level 3 you'll have swapped out one of your 1st levels, maybe 2 if your DM in lenient, and then at 3 get 2 new spells one of which you swap immediately. Then swap the other at 4th, so by 5th level you get 2 new 3rd level spels one of which you swap immediately, the next at 6th, etc.

It's a clunkier way of saying you get to pick a spell every time you level up, but in practice that's how it works.

 But in that example I'm staying within the two schools that are currently allowed.  Imagine if you could pick spells from any thematically appropriate school.  Then probably both spells would be swapped.  

In the draconic example, there are (by my count) 5 spells that dont fit into the two schools used (abjuration and Evocation).  Thats 50%!  

Quote from Stratoburn >>

Quote from Ravnodaus >>

Quote from Stratoburn >>

Imagine if this was the known spells list for AM: 

1st - Mind sliver, Dissonant Whispers, Silvery Barbs
3rd - Hold person, detect thoughts
5th- Fast Friends, Sending
etc, etc

That would be a killer set-up.  And yes, you can eventually get to this list, but it will take several levels to do so since you can only change 1 per each level up.  If you were able to open this up to other schools of magic for other themed spells...oh boy.    

Thats.. not really true. You do in effect get to freely choose one new spell every time you level up. And, if you compare how many spells you get and how many you have been able to swap out thats..that's... the same thing.

Like, at level 3 you'll have swapped out one of your 1st levels, maybe 2 if your DM in lenient, and then at 3 get 2 new spells one of which you swap immediately. Then swap the other at 4th, so by 5th level you get 2 new 3rd level spels one of which you swap immediately, the next at 6th, etc.

It's a clunkier way of saying you get to pick a spell every time you level up, but in practice that's how it works.

 But in that example I'm staying within the two schools that are currently allowed.  Imagine if you could pick spells from any thematically appropriate school.  Then probably both spells would be swapped.  

But you said it would take a while to get that list. But. It wouldn't. 

ok I concede that it may not take as long as I said.  But the other points I made are valid.  

Valid point, we did choose the spells based on theme more than spell school, which if you're creating a spell list and not allowing the spells to be swapped, I would encourage the DM and player to come up with the most thematic spell list for the subclass and character. If you do plan on allowing the spells to be swapped then the collaboration initially is less important. What is important is the restrictions on spell schools and allowed classes. I would probably end up with: 

1st: Chromatic orb or Shield
2nd: Shatter or Gust of wind
3rd: Counterspell or tiny hut
4th: Private sanctum or banishment
5th: Arcane Hand

This spells fall into the allowed schools AND they are all thematic. The choice would end up being based on the rest of the group and my characters stats on if I needed to focus on damage dealing to defense more. One interesting thing might be instead of swapping the spells in general, allowing those spells to be swapped back and forth on a long rest similar what the Lunar Magic sorcerer will probably do. Essentially allowing for 2 expanded spell lists that you choose at the end of a long rest. Maybe add Dominate person as the "defensive" side on the 5th level spot if you did that. It not in the evocation or abjuration lists, but it is thematic. 

I stand by the choices for the Shadow Sorcerer though. All the spells fall in the allowed schools except pass without trace but its incredibly thematic for the class so I feel its a valid choice. If anything no the Shadow sorcerer would be to maybe swap the summon shadow spawn with summon undead, animate dead or fear. Any of those 3 would still be thematic and also stay within the necromancy or illusion schools of magic. 

Thank you for the work, I came into this forum hoping to find someone who had done some work on an expanded spell list for older sorcerer sub classes.

Few things:

Would the Draconic Sorcerer have played different with a Evocation + Transmutation limit? Evocation + Abjuration is a hell of a list, balance wise I'd think I'd want to keep those two apart. 

Second, specifically for Draconic Sorcerer, I think it would end up looking more like the Genie Warlock, one list of general spells known, then 1 based on your element or for simplicity you go with something where you just grant a choice, the player is going to choose the elemental option that matches their bonus if available at all.

1. Feather Fall, one free evocation choice
3. Dragon's Breath, one free evocation choice
5. Fly, one free evocation choice
7. Polymorph, one free evocation choice
9. Control winds, one free evocation choice

Do you think this list would have skewed your results on Draconic?

For Shadow, I think Necromancy is the way to go, but I'd offer Conjuration over Illusion. A resulting list would be 

1. False life, unseen servant
3. Ray of Enfeeblement, Web
5. Vampiric Touch, Hunger of Hadar
7. Blight, Black Tentacles
9. Enervation, Far Step

I kept away from the raising of the dead for the simple fact that the sorcerer is channeling their own necromantic energies rather than animating the dead. 

Quote from Jessebruffett >>

Valid point, we did choose the spells based on theme more than spell school, which if you're creating a spell list and not allowing the spells to be swapped, I would encourage the DM and player to come up with the most thematic spell list for the subclass and character. If you do plan on allowing the spells to be swapped then the collaboration initially is less important. What is important is the restrictions on spell schools and allowed classes. I would probably end up with: 

1st: Chromatic orb or Shield
2nd: Shatter or Gust of wind
3rd: Counterspell or tiny hut
4th: Private sanctum or banishment
5th: Arcane Hand

This spells fall into the allowed schools AND they are all thematic. The choice would end up being based on the rest of the group and my characters stats on if I needed to focus on damage dealing to defense more. One interesting thing might be instead of swapping the spells in general, allowing those spells to be swapped back and forth on a long rest similar what the Lunar Magic sorcerer will probably do. Essentially allowing for 2 expanded spell lists that you choose at the end of a long rest. Maybe add Dominate person as the "defensive" side on the 5th level spot if you did that. It not in the evocation or abjuration lists, but it is thematic. 

I stand by the choices for the Shadow Sorcerer though. All the spells fall in the allowed schools except pass without trace but its incredibly thematic for the class so I feel its a valid choice. If anything no the Shadow sorcerer would be to maybe swap the summon shadow spawn with summon undead, animate dead or fear. Any of those 3 would still be thematic and also stay within the necromancy or illusion schools of magic. 

 Sorry for the confusion, I still think what you are doing is rad as hell.  For both subclasses.  

For the draconic sorcerer evocation and transmutation could work I think for metallic dragons, it's more of a stretch for the chromatics though. On the shadow sorcerer I personally dont think conjuration would work well, it just doesn't fit the vibe of the class. Also, as I said in the original post, 2 spells per spell level for the older subclasses is TOO MUCH. It gives the sorcerer too much flexibility and distracts from their specialist role. The original subclasses were actually pretty well balanced, compared to other classes subclasses, when you understood how to build and manage retraining their spell lists as they level. Which was the issue with older sorcerer subclasses when they dropped and people feeling them as underpowered then, most people didn't plan their spell lists and cycle lower level spells out for higher ones regularly. To keep up with the power creep, origin spell lists I do feel are appropriate to keep the older subclasses feeling current BUT the older subclasses still have enough independent oomph that 2 spells per spell level is just too much from what my playtest group was able to find. 

Quote from Jessebruffett >>

2 spells per spell level is just too much from what my playtest group was able to find. 

Can you elaborate on why?

Having more spells doesn't really make sorcerers much more powerful as such, as we're still talking about quite a lot less spells than your average Wizard; all the added spells really do is give you a bit more versatility (more spells to choose from, since you can't prepare new ones when you long rest) and access to spells that aren't normally on the sorcerer's list. You're still ultimately limited by the same resources, so you can still only cast spells limited by your slots and sorcery points.

I'm all for sorcerers being more specialised in theory, but the problem is that that they're not necessarily all that much more powerful than Wizards when it comes to casting (as there's only so much quickening and twinning you can actually do in practice) meanwhile you have less flexibility in what you can do (as metamagic only really lets you tweak what you can). It's harder to play into the cool sorcerer power fantasy when your party is wishing they had a Wizard instead.

While there will definitely be people who double down on what the sub-class lists add, or go all-in on combat and such, mostly I find the added spells just give me a lot more room to take out of combat utility spells and other stuff that I want to take but can't choose over something I know I need more. Put another way, with fewer spells sorcerers are forced to focus only on spells that they know they'll use often, because everything else feels like a waste.

With all casters apparently getting ritual casting in OneD&D we'll have to see how Wizards intend to rebalance the casting classes relative to each other.

Quote from Jessebruffett >>

For the draconic sorcerer evocation and transmutation could work I think for metallic dragons, it's more of a stretch for the chromatics though. On the shadow sorcerer I personally dont think conjuration would work well, it just doesn't fit the vibe of the class. Also, as I said in the original post, 2 spells per spell level for the older subclasses is TOO MUCH. It gives the sorcerer too much flexibility and distracts from their specialist role. The original subclasses were actually pretty well balanced, compared to other classes subclasses, when you understood how to build and manage retraining their spell lists as they level. Which was the issue with older sorcerer subclasses when they dropped and people feeling them as underpowered then, most people didn't plan their spell lists and cycle lower level spells out for higher ones regularly. To keep up with the power creep, origin spell lists I do feel are appropriate to keep the older subclasses feeling current BUT the older subclasses still have enough independent oomph that 2 spells per spell level is just too much from what my playtest group was able to find. 

 Why would Transmutation be a stretch for Chromatics, can they not shapeshift?

The Shadow Sorcerer going after conjuration was two fold - It connects to the hound of ill omen ability and it grants them innate access to all the warlock spells like Arms or Hadar, Hunger of Hadar, and Black Tentacles. All of which I found rather appropriate given the shadowfell-esque origin of the shadow sorcerer, plus summon aberration or star spawn feel appropriate but I didn't want to include summon spells on an always known list for the sake of the DM.

I admit, I would agree with you about the 1 spell known vs 2 spell known thing for the exact reason you mentioned, the sorcerer being a bit of a specialist by design but still needing just a bit of a push in that direction. But the last 3 sorcerers have all gotten 2 spells per level and I just dont see that changing anytime soon. Putting the balance level at 1 known would have had to have been a design restriction on both the Aberrant, clockwork, and Lunar Sorcerer to be optically balanced and unfortunately that boat has sailed. If they had gone with a single school and single spell known per level for Sorcerer, people would still have been ecstatic given how starved they were for choices. But oh well, too late now in my opinion. Could still happen, just not what I'd bet on. Still an interesting thought experiment. 

I mean, if you set AM to only have Dissonant Whispers, Detect Thoughts, Sending, something at 4th level and Telepathic bond to remove the tentacle flavor you'd still very much have a good set up (though trust me, you'd still want that Calm Emotions, I got tons of millage out of that in an RP heavy table) and on the Clockwork you could go with ProtectionG/E, Lesser Restoration, Displel Magic, Freedom of movement, and Greater restoration as the identity of a sorcerer who is all about getting things back to their properly balanced state. Well those lists would still get the job done and leave plenty the entire baseline sorcerer spell progression. 

Quote from Haravikk >>

Quote from Jessebruffett >>

2 spells per spell level is just too much from what my playtest group was able to find. 

Can you elaborate on why?

Having more spells doesn't really make sorcerers much more powerful as such, as we're still talking about quite a lot less spells than your average Wizard; all the added spells really do is give you a bit more versatility (more spells to choose from, since you can't prepare new ones when you long rest) and access to spells that aren't normally on the sorcerer's list. You're still ultimately limited by the same resources, so you can still only cast spells limited by your slots and sorcery points.

I'm all for sorcerers being more specialised in theory, but the problem is that that they're not necessarily all that much more powerful than Wizards when it comes to casting (as there's only so much quickening and twinning you can actually do in practice) meanwhile you have less flexibility in what you can do (as metamagic only really lets you tweak what you can). It's harder to play into the cool sorcerer power fantasy when your party is wishing they had a Wizard instead.

While there will definitely be people who double down on what the sub-class lists add, or go all-in on combat and such, mostly I find the added spells just give me a lot more room to take out of combat utility spells and other stuff that I want to take but can't choose over something I know I need more. Put another way, with fewer spells sorcerers are forced to focus only on spells that they know they'll use often, because everything else feels like a waste.

With all casters apparently getting ritual casting in OneD&D we'll have to see how Wizards intend to rebalance the casting classes relative to each other.

 I think we are all agreeing the advantage of the spells known is freeing up the 'mandatory' spells so that you can take what you WANT and not just what you NEED (although the game really doesn't normally require that sort of min-max), it's really just a question of how many extra do you need to get the balance. Even the AM and Clockwork could drop 1 known per level and basically hit the same points, so I can see the idea that two was always a bit too much.

As for how can WOTC rebalance ritual casting wizards to keep them unique, I think the answer is to really lean into the ritual casting tag and spell book and apply it  to more spells. The real advantage to wizard ritual casting is that they dont need to know the spell, just have it in their book. To double down on that I'd make the creation of temporary spell scrolls a class ability during a rest. This way the Wizard can prep their known spells from the book, have their rituals ready from the book AND tuck a one time use scroll away in case of a utility emergency. Just imagine the Wizard telling everyone to jump out the high tower window, pulling out the scroll they wrote that morning 'Just In Case' and casting feather fall

I still stand by the opinion that sorcerers don't need more spells known they just need more doubling down on the metamagic side of things. Having more freedom in how they twist the spells they already do know.

Soercers already "paid for" that casting flexibility at the cost of their spells known limits. It should be a good investment. And have more options. And ways to apply them for free.

This keeps them unique. If you just tack extra spells known on top of all of the existing subclasses you just sorta are airbrushing away all of your details and making them a edgeless blob of generic spellcaster.