Inspired by this thread, I'm finally going ahead with a fighter/sorcerer build that will allow me to use certain spells three times in the same turn:
1) Cast the spell as a bonus action using Quickened metamagic 2) Use the spell's normal effect as that turn's action 3) Use the spell's normal effect again as another action using Action Surge
For example, poor maligned witch bolt normally does its damage if it hits, then you can use an action to automatically deal another 1d12 damage. Stacking Quickened and Action Surge on top means the initial hit results in 3d12 damage (or even more if upcast) on that first turn
Just wondering... has anyone else tried this before as a core concept for a build, and not just as a fun thing you realized you could do once in a while? Any tips, or pitfalls I should avoid?
In terms of future spells to take, vampiric touch seems like a must, and I think the utility of something like watery sphere shoots through the roof when you can move it around 60 feet to scoop up enemies on the same turn you create it. Even something like maximilian’s earthen grasp becomes somewhat more interesting when you can go after additional targets right away if the first one breaks out, or add some extra damage once you do have a target restrained
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Maybe Flame blade? But it doesn't get to deal damage when cast...
It's already a bonus action cast too, so you can't Quicken it
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you can get Ravnica backgrounds Izzit Engineer gives you Call Lightning which is a really fun spell to use with this tactic. Sunbeam is another option at higher levels but enemies tend to have fairly high CON save bonuses.
Edit: Wall of Light is also interesting possibility.
If you can get Ravnica backgrounds Izzit Engineer gives you Call Lightning which is a really fun spell to use with this tactic. Sunbeam is another option at higher levels but enemies tend to have fairly high CON save bonuses.
Edit: Wall of Light is also interesting possibility.
Yeah, wall of light was definitely on the list for down the road. Nothing like blinding somebody on the first pop, and then getting advantage on the next two attacks on the turn
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think part of the difficulty you'll face is that the Sorcerer spell list has a lot of spells omitted purely because of how they might interact with Quickened Spell or Twinned Spell, so a lot of the best options are going to be difficult or impossible to get, and a lot of spells are either already bonus actions to repeat them, or have language limiting you to once per turn to repeat them.
With that in mind I don't think I'd lean too heavily on this particular option, but just have it be one of several in your arsenal; for example, Sorcerers have access to storm sphere which is a bonus action to repeat, but that means with action surge you can be repeating the lightning from that while also casting two other instant spells like ice storm or whatever to just really ruin your enemy's day, with no Quickened Spell required (you'll want to keep some sorcery points to help with the extra spell slot you'll be burning anyway).
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I think part of the difficulty you'll face is that the Sorcerer spell list has a lot of spells omitted purely because of how they might interact with Quickened Spell or Twinned Spell, so a lot of the best options are going to be difficult or impossible to get, and a lot of spells are either already bonus actions to repeat them, or have language limiting you to once per turn to repeat them.
With that in mind I don't think I'd lean too heavily on this particular option, but just have it be one of several in your arsenal; for example, Sorcerers have access to storm sphere which is a bonus action to repeat, but that means with action surge you can be repeating the lightning from that while also casting two other instant spells like ice storm or whatever to just really ruin your enemy's day, with no Quickened Spell required (you'll want to keep some sorcery points to help with the extra spell slot you'll be burning anyway).
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
-Quicken spell lets you cast an extra spell as a bonus action. Using witch bolt isn't casting a spell This still doesn't negate the rule of only casting 1 leveled spell, quick only allows you to cast a spell slot spell and a cantrip. So you can get 3 d12 on the round you cast it only. After that you can only do it 1x per round unless you have extra action surges.
Here is the thing, witch bolt is hot garbage:
You can do the same damage if you just go divine soul and use toll the dead, only you don't need to use a spell slot or concentration, it wont end if you lose sight on the target or it wanders out of the 30ft range, and you can do it every round.
If you want a similar effect of taking multiple shots, just go 2 levels into warlock and quicken your eldritch blast on a hexed target. It's overall just much much better and doesn't require a 13 in str.
-Quicken spell lets you cast an extra spell as a bonus action. Using witch bolt isn't casting a spell This still doesn't negate the rule of only casting 1 leveled spell, quick only allows you to cast a spell slot spell and a cantrip. So you can get 3 d12 on the round you cast it only. After that you can only do it 1x per round unless you have extra action surges.
Here is the thing, witch bolt is hot garbage:
You can do the same damage if you just go divine soul and use toll the dead, only you don't need to use a spell slot or concentration, it wont end if you lose sight on the target or it wanders out of the 30ft range, and you can do it every round.
If you want a similar effect of taking multiple shots, just go 2 levels into warlock and quicken your eldritch blast on a hexed target. It's overall just much much better and doesn't require a 13 in str.
Witch bolt does have the advantage of only needing to hit once then all the extra damage is free.
And sometimes niche ideas for builds isn't about being optimized otherwise no one would play martials at all...
-Quicken spell lets you cast an extra spell as a bonus action. Using witch bolt isn't casting a spell This still doesn't negate the rule of only casting 1 leveled spell, quick only allows you to cast a spell slot spell and a cantrip. So you can get 3 d12 on the round you cast it only. After that you can only do it 1x per round unless you have extra action surges.
Here is the thing, witch bolt is hot garbage:
You can do the same damage if you just go divine soul and use toll the dead, only you don't need to use a spell slot or concentration, it wont end if you lose sight on the target or it wanders out of the 30ft range, and you can do it every round.
If you want a similar effect of taking multiple shots, just go 2 levels into warlock and quicken your eldritch blast on a hexed target. It's overall just much much better and doesn't require a 13 in str.
I'm sorry, did anything in my initial post suggest I was asking for alternatives?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
-Quicken spell lets you cast an extra spell as a bonus action. Using witch bolt isn't casting a spell This still doesn't negate the rule of only casting 1 leveled spell, quick only allows you to cast a spell slot spell and a cantrip. So you can get 3 d12 on the round you cast it only. After that you can only do it 1x per round unless you have extra action surges.
Here is the thing, witch bolt is hot garbage:
You can do the same damage if you just go divine soul and use toll the dead, only you don't need to use a spell slot or concentration, it wont end if you lose sight on the target or it wanders out of the 30ft range, and you can do it every round.
If you want a similar effect of taking multiple shots, just go 2 levels into warlock and quicken your eldritch blast on a hexed target. It's overall just much much better and doesn't require a 13 in str.
I'm sorry, did anything in my initial post suggest I was asking for alternatives?
When you are talking about multiclassing so you can action surge to use witch bolt more, yeah... you are pretty much begging someone to suggest alternatives.
-Quicken spell lets you cast an extra spell as a bonus action. Using witch bolt isn't casting a spell This still doesn't negate the rule of only casting 1 leveled spell, quick only allows you to cast a spell slot spell and a cantrip. So you can get 3 d12 on the round you cast it only. After that you can only do it 1x per round unless you have extra action surges.
Here is the thing, witch bolt is hot garbage:
You can do the same damage if you just go divine soul and use toll the dead, only you don't need to use a spell slot or concentration, it wont end if you lose sight on the target or it wanders out of the 30ft range, and you can do it every round.
If you want a similar effect of taking multiple shots, just go 2 levels into warlock and quicken your eldritch blast on a hexed target. It's overall just much much better and doesn't require a 13 in str.
I'm sorry, did anything in my initial post suggest I was asking for alternatives?
When you are talking about multiclassing so you can action surge to use witch bolt more, yeah... you are pretty much begging someone to suggest alternatives.
Then you should try reading it again
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Bodanger's point still stands. You can get more raw damage with cantrips. Thus begging the question why blow your resources on empowering witch bolt.
The classic for Sorc Nuke with quickening still works
1) Scorch Ray
2) Twin Fire Bolt
3) Action Surge, Twin Fire Bolt
that is 5 spell points dump, but for single target at lvl 5 6d6+8d10 is pretty darn good. (7 attack rolls tho, some will miss). And even without the extra action surge you still have your main stay combo ready to go, and if you find you want to save your action surge for the traditional 2xCasts save the s-points you can of course do that.
Bodanger's point was irrelevant, because I have zero interest in that kind of build, for a variety of reasons
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
An alternative that you might consider that would give similar results is using Quickened Metamagic for Hold Person to paralyze your target. If it lands, your initial Witch Bolt attack (and many others on the list you mentioned like Vampiric Touch) will automatically crit if you're within 5 feet of your target, making up for the lost attack from not casting Witch Bolt a third time.
The end result would be the same for you for that one turn, but the Paralyzed condition will end up really benefitting your party spellcasters and martials especially.
An alternative that you might consider that would give similar results is using Quickened Metamagic for Hold Person to paralyze your target. If it lands, your initial Witch Bolt attack (and many others on the list you mentioned like Vampiric Touch) will automatically crit if you're within 5 feet of your target, making up for the lost attack from not casting Witch Bolt a third time.
The end result would be the same for you for that one turn, but the Paralyzed condition will end up really benefitting your party spellcasters and martials especially.
1 tiny problem with your suggestion. Hold Person and Witch Bolt both require concentration.
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Inspired by this thread, I'm finally going ahead with a fighter/sorcerer build that will allow me to use certain spells three times in the same turn:
1) Cast the spell as a bonus action using Quickened metamagic
2) Use the spell's normal effect as that turn's action
3) Use the spell's normal effect again as another action using Action Surge
For example, poor maligned witch bolt normally does its damage if it hits, then you can use an action to automatically deal another 1d12 damage. Stacking Quickened and Action Surge on top means the initial hit results in 3d12 damage (or even more if upcast) on that first turn
Just wondering... has anyone else tried this before as a core concept for a build, and not just as a fun thing you realized you could do once in a while? Any tips, or pitfalls I should avoid?
In terms of future spells to take, vampiric touch seems like a must, and I think the utility of something like watery sphere shoots through the roof when you can move it around 60 feet to scoop up enemies on the same turn you create it. Even something like maximilian’s earthen grasp becomes somewhat more interesting when you can go after additional targets right away if the first one breaks out, or add some extra damage once you do have a target restrained
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Maybe Flame blade? But it doesn't get to deal damage when cast...
It's already a bonus action cast too, so you can't Quicken it
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you can get Ravnica backgrounds Izzit Engineer gives you Call Lightning which is a really fun spell to use with this tactic. Sunbeam is another option at higher levels but enemies tend to have fairly high CON save bonuses.
Edit: Wall of Light is also interesting possibility.
Yeah, wall of light was definitely on the list for down the road. Nothing like blinding somebody on the first pop, and then getting advantage on the next two attacks on the turn
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Oh yeah... You can still action surge to do it twice though.
If I’m not mistaken, action surge can also grant a bonus action but I’m not sure.
You are mistaken, Action Surge only grants 1 additional Action.
Ok thanks, that’s my mistake.
I think part of the difficulty you'll face is that the Sorcerer spell list has a lot of spells omitted purely because of how they might interact with Quickened Spell or Twinned Spell, so a lot of the best options are going to be difficult or impossible to get, and a lot of spells are either already bonus actions to repeat them, or have language limiting you to once per turn to repeat them.
With that in mind I don't think I'd lean too heavily on this particular option, but just have it be one of several in your arsenal; for example, Sorcerers have access to storm sphere which is a bonus action to repeat, but that means with action surge you can be repeating the lightning from that while also casting two other instant spells like ice storm or whatever to just really ruin your enemy's day, with no Quickened Spell required (you'll want to keep some sorcery points to help with the extra spell slot you'll be burning anyway).
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There's enough:
1st: witch bolt
2nd: levitate (very niche use, but you could move another creature up or down 60 feet in a turn), maximilian's earthen grasp
3rd: major image (again, niche use), vampiric touch
4th: watery sphere
5th: enervation, telekinesis, wall of light
6th: eyebite, investiture of flame, investiture of ice, investiture of wind, sunbeam
7th: whirlwind
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
-Quicken spell lets you cast an extra spell as a bonus action.
Using witch bolt isn't casting a spell
This still doesn't negate the rule of only casting 1 leveled spell, quick only allows you to cast a spell slot spell and a cantrip. So you can get 3 d12 on the round you cast it only. After that you can only do it 1x per round unless you have extra action surges.
Here is the thing, witch bolt is hot garbage:
You can do the same damage if you just go divine soul and use toll the dead, only you don't need to use a spell slot or concentration, it wont end if you lose sight on the target or it wanders out of the 30ft range, and you can do it every round.
If you want a similar effect of taking multiple shots, just go 2 levels into warlock and quicken your eldritch blast on a hexed target. It's overall just much much better and doesn't require a 13 in str.
Witch bolt does have the advantage of only needing to hit once then all the extra damage is free.
And sometimes niche ideas for builds isn't about being optimized otherwise no one would play martials at all...
I'm sorry, did anything in my initial post suggest I was asking for alternatives?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
When you are talking about multiclassing so you can action surge to use witch bolt more, yeah... you are pretty much begging someone to suggest alternatives.
Then you should try reading it again
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Bodanger's point still stands. You can get more raw damage with cantrips. Thus begging the question why blow your resources on empowering witch bolt.
The classic for Sorc Nuke with quickening still works
1) Scorch Ray
2) Twin Fire Bolt
3) Action Surge, Twin Fire Bolt
that is 5 spell points dump, but for single target at lvl 5 6d6+8d10 is pretty darn good. (7 attack rolls tho, some will miss). And even without the extra action surge you still have your main stay combo ready to go, and if you find you want to save your action surge for the traditional 2xCasts save the s-points you can of course do that.
Bodanger's point was irrelevant, because I have zero interest in that kind of build, for a variety of reasons
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
An alternative that you might consider that would give similar results is using Quickened Metamagic for Hold Person to paralyze your target. If it lands, your initial Witch Bolt attack (and many others on the list you mentioned like Vampiric Touch) will automatically crit if you're within 5 feet of your target, making up for the lost attack from not casting Witch Bolt a third time.
The end result would be the same for you for that one turn, but the Paralyzed condition will end up really benefitting your party spellcasters and martials especially.
1 tiny problem with your suggestion. Hold Person and Witch Bolt both require concentration.