1. When a sorcerer uses twin spell metamagic for a spell that requires an attack roll - ray of frost, for example - does the sorcerer roll twice or use the initial attack roll for both?
Not sure on #1 just know my DM would do a single "to hit" roll and apply to both.
As for #2 twinning would be allowed if you targeted a creature (I attack the orc and twin it to hit the goblin) but not if it was used to attack an object like pile of straw or leaking barrel of oil.
I get RAW are RAW and I normally follow them fairly strictly... Its a pretty stupid and pointless restriction for Fire Bolt though... If I want to set 2 doors on fire or 2 barrels of oil who cares? And... You're telling me if I'm wearing a piece of cloth it is not flammable but the moment I put it down it is? Dumb... Fire Bolt targets ONE creature it should be eligible for twinning and I think MOST tables allow it. As far as attack rolls, its 2 SEPARATE rolls, why would it not be? RAW says "target" a second creature not "hit" a second creature.
I'm prob not wasting sorcery points on Fire Bolt anyway but still...
We play it that you target the two creatures then roll to hit so it is one attack roll that is applied to both targets AC to see if they hit. Makes sense to us as you are casting a single spell then splitting it.
We play it that you target the two creatures then roll to hit so it is one attack roll that is applied to both targets AC to see if they hit. Makes sense to us as you are casting a single spell then splitting it.
Couldn't the same be said for eldritch blast, though? You're only casting a single cantrip - but you have to roll separately for each bolt.
We play it that you target the two creatures then roll to hit so it is one attack roll that is applied to both targets AC to see if they hit. Makes sense to us as you are casting a single spell then splitting it.
But its called twinned spell not split spell, its 2 separate spells. You're actually casting 2 spells with 1 action or bonus action. In a way you are kinda gimping the Sorcerer, what if they might hit with a second roll for the other enemy after missing the other?
We play it that you target the two creatures then roll to hit so it is one attack roll that is applied to both targets AC to see if they hit. Makes sense to us as you are casting a single spell then splitting it.
Couldn't the same be said for eldritch blast, though? You're only casting a single cantrip - but you have to roll separately for each bolt.
I guess it depends on how you and your DM read it. We read it as a single spell is cast then the metamagic creates a twin (an identical twin) so there is only one roll needed and both twins use that roll. If you read it that metamagic goes first and makes it so you are casting two spells (which would violate the only one named spell per turn) then it would be two rolls. Eldrich blast is a single spell that has multiple bolts at the time of casting so that would use multiple rolls.
I guess it depends on how you and your DM read it. We read it as a single spell is cast then the metamagic creates a twin (an identical twin) so there is only one roll needed and both twins use that roll. If you read it that metamagic goes first and makes it so you are casting two spells (which would violate the only one named spell per turn) then it would be two rolls. Eldrich blast is a single spell that has multiple bolts at the time of casting so that would use multiple rolls.
Look at it this way, if you Twin Spell something like say Polymorph do the 2 targets only make 1 saving throw? If so then how do you determine which creature makes the roll?
In that case the target is making the roll not the caster and each is hit with a spell so each would roll a save. It is only when the caster rolls that one roll is used.
I guess it depends on how you and your DM read it. We read it as a single spell is cast then the metamagic creates a twin (an identical twin) so there is only one roll needed and both twins use that roll. If you read it that metamagic goes first and makes it so you are casting two spells (which would violate the only one named spell per turn) then it would be two rolls. Eldrich blast is a single spell that has multiple bolts at the time of casting so that would use multiple rolls.
In that case the target is making the roll not the caster and each is hit with a spell so each would roll a save. It is only when the caster rolls that one roll is used.
You guys of course play how you want, but most people would disagree with you. Just google the topic and see what you get. Personally I think you are gimping the sorcerer in the long run. He could potentially hit one of the 2 that he "targets" instead of just missing both.
In that case the target is making the roll not the caster and each is hit with a spell so each would roll a save. It is only when the caster rolls that one roll is used.
You cannot have it both ways. If you only roll once for a attack roll spell then by the same logic only 1 saving throw should be rolled if it is a spell that requires a saving throw. Since it is as you claim it the 'same spell' there should not be multiple saving throws.
I guess it depends on how you and your DM read it. We read it as a single spell is cast then the metamagic creates a twin (an identical twin) so there is only one roll needed and both twins use that roll. If you read it that metamagic goes first and makes it so you are casting two spells (which would violate the only one named spell per turn) then it would be two rolls. Eldrich blast is a single spell that has multiple bolts at the time of casting so that would use multiple rolls.
You are mistaken about spell casting rules. There is no rule that says you cannot cast 2 spells of the same name on the same turn. I think you are confusing it with the leveled spell rule that states if you use a Bonus Action to cast a spell, then the spell you cast with an Action can only be a cantrip. The proof of this is the Fighter ability called Action Surge which surprise surprise lets you cast TWO spells of the same name a turn or even different named spells if you are feeling especially daring :P
And this is why the DM makes the rules at his or her table. People have different ideas on how things work. I am not saying anyone else is wrong just pointing out how my group plays. And yes a twinned spell with one roll could hit one target and miss another depending on targets AC. As for the both ways comment it is not both ways. When the caster rolls to hit the single attack roll is compared to each creatures AC (each is individually resolving the action). When the targets roll they each save using their savings stats (each individually resolving the action). Eldrich blast creates multiple blasts at the moment of casting; not afterwards. A twinned spell is cast as a single spell then copied by the metamagic. Again just the way it goes at our table
You are mistaken about spell casting rules. There is no rule that says you cannot cast 2 spells of the same name on the same turn. I think you are confusing it with the leveled spell rule that states if you use a Bonus Action to cast a spell, then the spell you cast with an Action can only be a cantrip.
Here you are mistaken. The PHB rule about Actions in combat is very clear:
When you take your action on your turn, you can take oneof the actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a special feature, or an action that you improvise.
This rule alone prevents anyone from casting two spells of the same name during a turn, as doing so would require two actions.
And the rule you cite about spells with Bonus Action casting time is clear; you can't cast a leveled spell with 1 Action as the casting time AND cast a level spell with Bonus Action as the casting time.
Whether the Fighter's Action Surge would/should allow an eldritch knight or multiclassed character cast a spell in addition to taking another Action is ultimately up to the DM. (My own house rule is that Action Surge does not allow for the casting of spells in addition to the Fighter's normal one action.)
You are mistaken about spell casting rules. There is no rule that says you cannot cast 2 spells of the same name on the same turn. I think you are confusing it with the leveled spell rule that states if you use a Bonus Action to cast a spell, then the spell you cast with an Action can only be a cantrip.
Here you are mistaken. The PHB rule about Actions in combat is very clear:
When you take your action on your turn, you can take oneof the actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a special feature, or an action that you improvise.
This rule alone prevents anyone from casting two spells of the same name during a turn, as doing so would require two actions.
And the rule you cite about spells with Bonus Action casting time is clear; you can't cast a leveled spell with 1 Action as the casting time AND cast a level spell with Bonus Action as the casting time.
Whether the Fighter's Action Surge would/should allow an eldritch knight or multiclassed character cast a spell in addition to taking another Action is ultimately up to the DM. (My own house rule is that Action Surge does not allow for the casting of spells in addition to the Fighter's normal one action.)
You are arguing with your tables house rules. I don't see how your houserules about not letting Action Surge cast a 2nd spell makes me wrong when RAW supports my argument....
And this is why the DM makes the rules at his or her table. People have different ideas on how things work. I am not saying anyone else is wrong just pointing out how my group plays. And yes a twinned spell with one roll could hit one target and miss another depending on targets AC. As for the both ways comment it is not both ways. When the caster rolls to hit the single attack roll is compared to each creatures AC (each is individually resolving the action). When the targets roll they each save using their savings stats (each individually resolving the action). Eldrich blast creates multiple blasts at the moment of casting; not afterwards. A twinned spell is cast as a single spell then copied by the metamagic. Again just the way it goes at our table
I am going to agree to disagree with you here my friend but I can see how your interpretation works and I have had an interesting discussion with you on the topic.
You are arguing with your tables house rules. I don't see how your houserules about not letting Action Surge cast a 2nd spell makes me wrong when RAW supports my argument....
The only part of my post that was a house rule concerned action surge. The rest is RAW.
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1. When a sorcerer uses twin spell metamagic for a spell that requires an attack roll - ray of frost, for example - does the sorcerer roll twice or use the initial attack roll for both?
2. Sage Advice says that twin spell metamagic cannot be used on spell that can target objects. The description of fire bolt says that it can target "a creature or object within range." Does this mean fire bolt cannot be twinned?
Not sure on #1 just know my DM would do a single "to hit" roll and apply to both.
As for #2 twinning would be allowed if you targeted a creature (I attack the orc and twin it to hit the goblin) but not if it was used to attack an object like pile of straw or leaking barrel of oil.
The sage advice seems pretty specific:
This seems prescriptive - if the spell can target an object, regardless if it actually does, it can't be twinned.
You and your DM are free to interpret/apply the rule as you see fit, of course, as we all are.
I get RAW are RAW and I normally follow them fairly strictly... Its a pretty stupid and pointless restriction for Fire Bolt though... If I want to set 2 doors on fire or 2 barrels of oil who cares? And... You're telling me if I'm wearing a piece of cloth it is not flammable but the moment I put it down it is? Dumb... Fire Bolt targets ONE creature it should be eligible for twinning and I think MOST tables allow it. As far as attack rolls, its 2 SEPARATE rolls, why would it not be? RAW says "target" a second creature not "hit" a second creature.
I'm prob not wasting sorcery points on Fire Bolt anyway but still...
We play it that you target the two creatures then roll to hit so it is one attack roll that is applied to both targets AC to see if they hit. Makes sense to us as you are casting a single spell then splitting it.
Couldn't the same be said for eldritch blast, though? You're only casting a single cantrip - but you have to roll separately for each bolt.
But its called twinned spell not split spell, its 2 separate spells. You're actually casting 2 spells with 1 action or bonus action. In a way you are kinda gimping the Sorcerer, what if they might hit with a second roll for the other enemy after missing the other?
Exactly.
I guess it depends on how you and your DM read it. We read it as a single spell is cast then the metamagic creates a twin (an identical twin) so there is only one roll needed and both twins use that roll. If you read it that metamagic goes first and makes it so you are casting two spells (which would violate the only one named spell per turn) then it would be two rolls. Eldrich blast is a single spell that has multiple bolts at the time of casting so that would use multiple rolls.
Look at it this way, if you Twin Spell something like say Polymorph do the 2 targets only make 1 saving throw? If so then how do you determine which creature makes the roll?
In that case the target is making the roll not the caster and each is hit with a spell so each would roll a save. It is only when the caster rolls that one roll is used.
You also just described twinned spell.
You guys of course play how you want, but most people would disagree with you. Just google the topic and see what you get. Personally I think you are gimping the sorcerer in the long run. He could potentially hit one of the 2 that he "targets" instead of just missing both.
You cannot have it both ways. If you only roll once for a attack roll spell then by the same logic only 1 saving throw should be rolled if it is a spell that requires a saving throw. Since it is as you claim it the 'same spell' there should not be multiple saving throws.
See the problem here?
You are mistaken about spell casting rules. There is no rule that says you cannot cast 2 spells of the same name on the same turn. I think you are confusing it with the leveled spell rule that states if you use a Bonus Action to cast a spell, then the spell you cast with an Action can only be a cantrip. The proof of this is the Fighter ability called Action Surge which surprise surprise lets you cast TWO spells of the same name a turn or even different named spells if you are feeling especially daring :P
And this is why the DM makes the rules at his or her table. People have different ideas on how things work. I am not saying anyone else is wrong just pointing out how my group plays. And yes a twinned spell with one roll could hit one target and miss another depending on targets AC. As for the both ways comment it is not both ways. When the caster rolls to hit the single attack roll is compared to each creatures AC (each is individually resolving the action). When the targets roll they each save using their savings stats (each individually resolving the action). Eldrich blast creates multiple blasts at the moment of casting; not afterwards. A twinned spell is cast as a single spell then copied by the metamagic. Again just the way it goes at our table
Here you are mistaken. The PHB rule about Actions in combat is very clear:
This rule alone prevents anyone from casting two spells of the same name during a turn, as doing so would require two actions.
And the rule you cite about spells with Bonus Action casting time is clear; you can't cast a leveled spell with 1 Action as the casting time AND cast a level spell with Bonus Action as the casting time.
Whether the Fighter's Action Surge would/should allow an eldritch knight or multiclassed character cast a spell in addition to taking another Action is ultimately up to the DM. (My own house rule is that Action Surge does not allow for the casting of spells in addition to the Fighter's normal one action.)
You are arguing with your tables house rules. I don't see how your houserules about not letting Action Surge cast a 2nd spell makes me wrong when RAW supports my argument....
I am going to agree to disagree with you here my friend but I can see how your interpretation works and I have had an interesting discussion with you on the topic.
ThelonelyMagi: As did I.
The only part of my post that was a house rule concerned action surge. The rest is RAW.