okay so the new UA is out and with it comes an feature that lets you replace sorcerer spells after an long rest. The divine soul sorcerer has the feature divine magic that lets me learn and cast new cleric spells, and it says as follows "Whenever your spellcasting feature lets you learn or replace a sorcery cantrip or spell, you can choose the new spell from the cleric spell list or the sorcerer spell list. You must otherwise obey all the restrictions for selecting the spell, and it becomes an sorcerer spell for you". XGE and many other sources say that specific rules beat out general rules but here i am unshure. The new UA says "Whenever you finish a long rest, you can replace one spell you learned from this Spell casting feature with another spell from the sorcerer spell list. The new spell must be the same level as the spell you replace." and it is considered an enhancement to spell casting, meaning that it is meant to add versatillity but not nessesarily strength to an existing feature. Is spellcasting versatillity considered an sepperate feature to spellcasting or is it considered to be part of the spellcasting feature, should i be able to learn new cleric spells on an long rest or whould that make me too powerful? (i think so considering the things i can do with both these lists, and the fact that it ruins the restrictions put in place by the subclass, and the fact that i have to sort of kind of bend the rules to allow it)
You should be able to learn cleric spells on long rest too. The spell versatility feature is described as part of the spellcasting feature and therefore divine magic also effects this too.
whenever you learn a new spell as an divine soul sorcerer, that spell is added to your spell list, meaning that if you are allowed to replace one of your known sorcerer spells with an spell from the cleric spell list as an divine soul sorcerer, you could over the course of many long rests add every cleric spell to your personal sorcerer spell list, meaning you could potentially after a long time use cleric spell scrolls.
even if you are not allowed to do that, you could just decide to always learn cleric spells whenever you level up and replace one spell you know with an new cleric spell every level, since cleric spells you do not know are still on your spell list, you do not loose them, and you can always re-learn them with the spellcasting versatillity feature, since they are on your personal sorcerer spell list now.
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
so, in essence you agree that spellcasting versatillity is part of the spellcasting feature and thus, since it allows me to replace an sorcerer spell i already know it can come from any of these lists, great but i feel like as soon as i am allowed that i become an god, especially at 13 level when you have more or less won, like i can at a whim decide that today i want the ability to ressurect, tomorrow the ability to cast divine word whom combined with polymorph lets me more or less insta kill any creature who fails an wisdom save and then after that an charisma save with an -4 penalty, i know it is slower than proper preperation classes but i just feel that it can be easily abused, especially since one you learn an cleric spell as an sorcerer once, it is now allways on your spell list, meaning that you could slowly but shurely expand your sorcerer spell list and be able to use any spell scroll from the cleric spell list, something you acording to raw are not normally able to do
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I'm not sure what you are going on about. Spell versatility feature only lets you replace 1 spell with another spell of the same level. Basically, it lets you slowly change your spell list in a way that was already possible at that level. It doesn't increase the class's power, only its versatility.
Spell scrolls require the spell to be on your class list. Divine magic only makes cleric spells sorcerer spells while you know them.
indeed it does not increase straight up power, yet you become rather versatile, the cleric and sorcerer spell list compliment each other well, letting you for example cast polymorph, to turn somebody into a frog/ toad with 2 charisma and then divine word to instantly kill them, similar to the power word kill combo but available at a lower level, and finger of death plus animate/ create undead spells lets you be an rather good necromancer, like this is not game-breaking, but you can do a lot of things
as for the spell list, an cleric spell is treated as an sorcerer spell for you once you learn it, yet it is unclear, (yet perhaps implied) wheter or not it ceases to be an sorcerer spell for you once you unlearn it
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Those are indeed good spell combos. They aren't really effected by the variant feature except to be able to switch between them. Those combos are still possible without UA.
Divine magic says they are sorcerer spells for you, but doesn't actually change class spell lists. Whether or not a divine soul can use cleric scrolls is up to the DM. Honestly, I'd allow it. Good scrolls are rare and expensive, and I don't think it significantly increases the subclass's power (it obviously does a little). Either way though, I wouldn't say the variant feature effects this either.
as for the spell list, an cleric spell is treated as an sorcerer spell for you once you learn it, yet it is unclear, (yet perhaps implied) wheter or not it ceases to be an sorcerer spell for you once you unlearn it
Whether or not it's still a sorcerer spell for you, once you've "unlearned" it over a long rest, you can't cast it until you "learn" it again over a long rest. The fact that it's a sorcerer spell for you just means that Charisma is your spellcasting ability for those spells, and that it appears on the list of potential spells you can learn - not that you always know it. If that were the case, sorcerers would always know every spell on the sorcerer spell list for which they have spell slots.
it matters, since if it is an sorcerer spell even after i unlearn a spell (wich is unlikely) it means that ann sorcerer who has at diffrent points in time known and been able to cast every cleric spell, for however short a period, that they can activate spell scrolls of any cleric spell, provided that they have had it on their list of known spells at any point in time, since it is considered to be on the sorcerer spell list for me, something the designers likely did not intend. If the designers had wished for all cleric spells to be on the sorcerer spell list, they whould have simply said so, but the way it is worded means that it is not something they thougt of
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
you are right, maybe i am freaking out over nothing, and you are right in that these spell combos are still possible without the UA, it is just that you become rather versatile, and any existing divine soul sorcerer can go from an basic healer to one of the most powerful necromancers the world has seen in a manner of weeks, wich is going to be a lot of fun. And in rules as written, cleric spells are not automatically on the sorcerer spell list, which means that you cannot use cleric scrolls of cleric spells you do not know. Now of course you would probably not greatly affect the power of divine soul sorcerers by allowing them to use cleric scrolls, but that distinction was likely put there to avoid accidentally breaking the game if future material is released, like how the monk martial arts feature was "was carefully worded to prevent unintended combinations".
again, there is probably nothing to freak out about, and i should probably calm down, but oh boy is this unearthed arcana going to be a lot of fun
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
it matters, since if it is an sorcerer spell even after i unlearn a spell (wich is unlikely) it means that ann sorcerer who has at diffrent points in time known and been able to cast every cleric spell, for however short a period, that they can activate spell scrolls of any cleric spell, provided that they have had it on their list of known spells at any point in time, since it is considered to be on the sorcerer spell list for me, something the designers likely did not intend. If the designers had wished for all cleric spells to be on the sorcerer spell list, they whould have simply said so, but the way it is worded means that it is not something they thougt of
This is not how Sorcerer spells, Cleric spells, or spell scrolls function.
Sorcerers only know the spells that they know. Full stop. The pool of spells that a Sorcerer canlearn is restricted to what is on their class spell list, and any spells that are granted by subclass/feat(s). When you replace a "known spell", you don't know it anymore. It's not "in reserve" or anything like that.
Clerics know all spells that appear on the Cleric list (of a level they can cast). The spells they prepare from the Cleric list are what they are able to actually cast at any given time. The spells that they have not prepared are "in reserve" in the sense that they can completely change their list of prepared spells every day.
Divine Soul Sorcerers simply have access to the basic Cleric spell list to choose their learned spells from, but they do not follow the Cleric spellcasting rules. They are still Sorcerers. When given the option to learn a new spell at level up, the Divine Soul Sorcerer can choose to learn a spell from either the standard Sorcerer or Cleric spell lists. Only the spells that have been chosen from the Cleric list actually count as spells known. Divine Soul Sorcerers do not get to prepare an entirely different spell list every day.
Using a spell scroll has nothing to do with which spells you have learned/prepared. The only thing that matters for using a spell scroll is whether the spell appears on the class spell list(s) for your character. A Divine Soul Sorcerer draws from the class spell lists of both Cleric & Sorcerer. You don't need to do anything special for this. If the spell appears on either the basic Cleric or Sorcerer spell lists, and is of a spell level for which you can normally cast, you can use the scroll. It doesn't matter if you've never actually learned the spell before.
Scribing a spell scroll is completely different, and you can only scribe a scroll for a spell that you actually know. A Divine Soul Sorcerer still doesn't know any spell they haven't picked, and they no longer know any spell that has been previously replaced. Having access to the Cleric spell list does not change the way in which the Sorcerer spellcasting feature functions.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
i am well aware of the differences in how diffrent spellcasting classes operate. I know that druids, clerics and palladins works far diffrently from the way bards, sorcerers and warlocks do. I am also aware of how scrolls work. My concern, if you can call it that, was that if your sorcerer chooses to forget an sorcerer spell they already know (that happened to be learned via the divine magic feature), be it by leveling up or with the new unearthed arcana feature known as "spellcasting versatillity", that despite not knowing the spell, the spell would still be a sorcerer spell for you, here is what the divine spellcasting feature says:
"when your spellcasting feature lets you learn or replace an sorcerer cantrip or an sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, you can choose the new spell from the cleric spell list or the sorcerer spell list. You must otherwise obey all the restrictions for selecting the spell, and it becomes a sorcerer spell for you."
with this feature, the book establishes an clear method/mechanism to add new cleric spells to the sorcerer spell list, but does not give away an clear mechanism for an cleric spell to cease being on your spell list, it simply says "it becomes an sorcerer spell for you", sort of implying the change is permanent even if the spell is not, that even as i do not know the spell it remains on my personal spell list. Now this is of course subject to how you interpret the rules.
Using a spell scroll has nothing to do with which spells you have learned/prepared. The only thing that matters for using a spell scroll is whether the spell appears on the class spell list(s) for your character
that i do agree with, it has absolutely nothing to do with what spells you know or have prepared at the moment, what matters is that it is on your spell list. But two members of the same class do not always have the same personal spell list, the warlocks subclass-dependent expanded spell lists and the magical secrets features of the bard are great examples of ways in whom your spell list can change, and something similar is indeed true of the divine soul. As the feature says, the spell you learns "becomes" an sorcerer spell for you, meaning like other sorcerer spells, it can be found on your, personal, spell list.
Also please, for the love of moradin souldforger explain what the **** you mean with the quote "You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.", i really must know, please sir i am begging you
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I see where the disconnect is. A Cleric spell does not "become" a Sorcerer spell when you learn it. It doesn't ever become a Sorcerer spell. All that happens is that, when you learn a spell (as a Divine Soul Sorcerer) off of the Cleric class spell list, you treat the spell as if it were a Sorcerer spell. I.e., you can cast it using Charisma as your spellcasting ability, and it is eligible for use with your Sorcerer features. That's it.
It might be easier for you to consider things like this: A Divine Soul Sorcerer is not a Cleric. It will never be a Cleric. A level taken in DSS is not a level taken in Cleric. All-That-Is-Cleric is entirely divorced from All-That-Is-Sorcerer. A Divine Soul Sorcerer is just a regular Sorcerer with a larger range of potential spells to learn.
A known spell that you have chosen to replace (via whatever method) is no longer a spell known. It isn't on your "personal spell list" anymore. Whether it was originally from the Cleric or Sorcerer class spell list is irrelevant; you don't know it anymore.
As for my signature, have you played Curse of Strahd? I'll send you a message after I leave the office if you're actually interested in hearing about it. 😂
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
from the way i see it, the term "sorcerer spell" or "wizard spell" or the like refers to two things: spells cast as an sorcerer or an wizard or spells or spells that simply appear on their respective spell list, but yeah your interpretation is probably correct in this case.
also i am not stupid. I know that charisma is me spellcasting abillity for sorcerer spells, and that is the way it will always be for all spells. Stop assuming i am a dumbass who never read the rules, i am not
how do sorcerers even use scrolls in the first place? for all the other classes what they are doing makes sense, druids and clerics are reading the instructions as prayers, wizards are followwing the formula of the spell, using the unique gestures to pluck strands of the weave and weaving them into an desirered effect, bards read them as chords on their instrument and vocals for their song, and depending on your interpretation of the lore and how you flavor things ether warlocks are just wizards who happen to be learning all their arcane secrets from an patron, thus your reading of the scroll is no diffrent to a wizard, or you reading the scroll and casting the spell is a matter of you requesting the desirered effect from your patron.
but the magic of sorcerers comes directly from within them, their spells are part of them, how could they ever cast an spell by following instructions? it could be said that you are simply channeling the energy within you in ways you where previously unable to, or it could be said that really you just cast spells like a wizard, the only difference being that your spells are not learned but rather etched into your muscle memory, that like how they describe it in chapter ten page 205 "[arcane magic] relies on an understanding -learned or intuitive- of the workings of the weave. The caster plucks directly at the strands of the desired effect" so then sorcerers do not really blast energy from within themselves, they just happen to know exactly how to move in just the right ways i order to trigger the right effect, and so just happen to be touched my a magical heritage whom lets them do that better.
okay. Guess that is kinda neat.
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
First, I'm not insinuating that you're stupid. I apologize if that's how I'm being perceived. I'm just trying to help clarify things for you.
Scrolls are just really weird in this edition. I find it makes sense to think about their mechanics this way:
A Spell Scroll contains all of the instructions--written words of power, sigils, etc--necessary for someone to cast the spell at a specific spell level
The spell is not associated with any particular class; it's just the spell, regardless of the scribe's class
The scroll's instructions are super condensed. What a Wizard writes in their spellbook (or what a Sorcerer just intuitively knows) about a specific spell may include a whole bunch of variable instructions to cast the spell at different levels. A scroll just has the bare minimum to cast a specific version.
This is one reason non-Wizards can't simply learn a spell from a written source.
Any spellcasting character, for whom the spell on the scroll appears on their class spell list, is capable of using the scroll.
A Wizard might craft a spell scroll of Fireball, but that doesn't preclude a Sorcerer from using the scroll as the spell appears on both the Wizard and Sorcerer lists. It would preclude a Cleric from using the scroll.
Scrolls are kinda like a novelty can of nuts that explodes with spring-snakes when you open the top. Someone primed & packed all those snakes (magic power) in the can (scroll), and some kind of written instructions--"this side up", "point away from face", "not for Clerics", etc. Pop the top, boom you're connected to the Weave, and snakes are everywhere.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
if i remember correctly, scrolls were only divided into arcane and divine in 3.5e, and for the other editions i have no clue, but i just see it as every class reading the careful instructions in a diffrent way, and that is why it is usable by all kinds of classes
"Pop the top, boom you're connected to the Weave, and snakes are everywhere." is an perfect out-of context quote, may i use it for other things?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The biggest thing to remember about 5e is that, well, it's not anything but 5e. They've carried forward a lot of the more solid aspects of past editions, and magic/crafting is one of the bigger departures from the past. I also recall scrolls in 3.5e being like potions; anyone could use 'em, and they didn't need to be a caster either. 5e went a totally different way.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
how do sorcerers even use scrolls in the first place? for all the other classes what they are doing makes sense, druids and clerics are reading the instructions as prayers, wizards are followwing the formula of the spell, using the unique gestures to pluck strands of the weave and weaving them into an desirered effect, bards read them as chords on their instrument and vocals for their song, and depending on your interpretation of the lore and how you flavor things ether warlocks are just wizards who happen to be learning all their arcane secrets from an patron, thus your reading of the scroll is no diffrent to a wizard, or you reading the scroll and casting the spell is a matter of you requesting the desirered effect from your patron.
but the magic of sorcerers comes directly from within them, their spells are part of them, how could they ever cast an spell by following instructions? it could be said that you are simply channeling the energy within you in ways you where previously unable to, or it could be said that really you just cast spells like a wizard, the only difference being that your spells are not learned but rather etched into your muscle memory, that like how they describe it in chapter ten page 205 "[arcane magic] relies on an understanding -learned or intuitive- of the workings of the weave. The caster plucks directly at the strands of the desired effect" so then sorcerers do not really blast energy from within themselves, they just happen to know exactly how to move in just the right ways i order to trigger the right effect, and so just happen to be touched my a magical heritage whom lets them do that better.
okay. Guess that is kinda neat.
It's just that the source of a Sorcerer's spellcasting ability comes from within. They weren't given it, nor did they have to learn it. Metamagic is an extension of that. They still have to understand the use of VSM components to actually cast the spell. So a scroll with instuctions of the right verbal or somatic components allows them to cast that particular spell. So long as that spell is on their list, they are familiar enough with the components to make the spell work that one time. If it's not on their list, the components are so foreign to them that they can't make it work. Think of it like knowing what all the ingredients in your kitchen are, but only when you have a specific recipe can you make Grandma's cookies.
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okay so the new UA is out and with it comes an feature that lets you replace sorcerer spells after an long rest. The divine soul sorcerer has the feature divine magic that lets me learn and cast new cleric spells, and it says as follows "Whenever your spellcasting feature lets you learn or replace a sorcery cantrip or spell, you can choose the new spell from the cleric spell list or the sorcerer spell list. You must otherwise obey all the restrictions for selecting the spell, and it becomes an sorcerer spell for you". XGE and many other sources say that specific rules beat out general rules but here i am unshure. The new UA says "Whenever you finish a long rest, you can replace one spell you learned from this Spell casting feature with another spell from the sorcerer spell list. The new spell must be the same level as the spell you replace." and it is considered an enhancement to spell casting, meaning that it is meant to add versatillity but not nessesarily strength to an existing feature. Is spellcasting versatillity considered an sepperate feature to spellcasting or is it considered to be part of the spellcasting feature, should i be able to learn new cleric spells on an long rest or whould that make me too powerful? (i think so considering the things i can do with both these lists, and the fact that it ruins the restrictions put in place by the subclass, and the fact that i have to sort of kind of bend the rules to allow it)
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
You should be able to learn cleric spells on long rest too. The spell versatility feature is described as part of the spellcasting feature and therefore divine magic also effects this too.
whenever you learn a new spell as an divine soul sorcerer, that spell is added to your spell list, meaning that if you are allowed to replace one of your known sorcerer spells with an spell from the cleric spell list as an divine soul sorcerer, you could over the course of many long rests add every cleric spell to your personal sorcerer spell list, meaning you could potentially after a long time use cleric spell scrolls.
even if you are not allowed to do that, you could just decide to always learn cleric spells whenever you level up and replace one spell you know with an new cleric spell every level, since cleric spells you do not know are still on your spell list, you do not loose them, and you can always re-learn them with the spellcasting versatillity feature, since they are on your personal sorcerer spell list now.
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
so, in essence you agree that spellcasting versatillity is part of the spellcasting feature and thus, since it allows me to replace an sorcerer spell i already know it can come from any of these lists, great but i feel like as soon as i am allowed that i become an god, especially at 13 level when you have more or less won, like i can at a whim decide that today i want the ability to ressurect, tomorrow the ability to cast divine word whom combined with polymorph lets me more or less insta kill any creature who fails an wisdom save and then after that an charisma save with an -4 penalty, i know it is slower than proper preperation classes but i just feel that it can be easily abused, especially since one you learn an cleric spell as an sorcerer once, it is now allways on your spell list, meaning that you could slowly but shurely expand your sorcerer spell list and be able to use any spell scroll from the cleric spell list, something you acording to raw are not normally able to do
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I'm not sure what you are going on about. Spell versatility feature only lets you replace 1 spell with another spell of the same level. Basically, it lets you slowly change your spell list in a way that was already possible at that level. It doesn't increase the class's power, only its versatility.
Spell scrolls require the spell to be on your class list. Divine magic only makes cleric spells sorcerer spells while you know them.
indeed it does not increase straight up power, yet you become rather versatile, the cleric and sorcerer spell list compliment each other well, letting you for example cast polymorph, to turn somebody into a frog/ toad with 2 charisma and then divine word to instantly kill them, similar to the power word kill combo but available at a lower level, and finger of death plus animate/ create undead spells lets you be an rather good necromancer, like this is not game-breaking, but you can do a lot of things
as for the spell list, an cleric spell is treated as an sorcerer spell for you once you learn it, yet it is unclear, (yet perhaps implied) wheter or not it ceases to be an sorcerer spell for you once you unlearn it
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Those are indeed good spell combos. They aren't really effected by the variant feature except to be able to switch between them. Those combos are still possible without UA.
Divine magic says they are sorcerer spells for you, but doesn't actually change class spell lists. Whether or not a divine soul can use cleric scrolls is up to the DM. Honestly, I'd allow it. Good scrolls are rare and expensive, and I don't think it significantly increases the subclass's power (it obviously does a little). Either way though, I wouldn't say the variant feature effects this either.
Whether or not it's still a sorcerer spell for you, once you've "unlearned" it over a long rest, you can't cast it until you "learn" it again over a long rest. The fact that it's a sorcerer spell for you just means that Charisma is your spellcasting ability for those spells, and that it appears on the list of potential spells you can learn - not that you always know it. If that were the case, sorcerers would always know every spell on the sorcerer spell list for which they have spell slots.
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.
it matters, since if it is an sorcerer spell even after i unlearn a spell (wich is unlikely) it means that ann sorcerer who has at diffrent points in time known and been able to cast every cleric spell, for however short a period, that they can activate spell scrolls of any cleric spell, provided that they have had it on their list of known spells at any point in time, since it is considered to be on the sorcerer spell list for me, something the designers likely did not intend. If the designers had wished for all cleric spells to be on the sorcerer spell list, they whould have simply said so, but the way it is worded means that it is not something they thougt of
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
you are right, maybe i am freaking out over nothing, and you are right in that these spell combos are still possible without the UA, it is just that you become rather versatile, and any existing divine soul sorcerer can go from an basic healer to one of the most powerful necromancers the world has seen in a manner of weeks, wich is going to be a lot of fun. And in rules as written, cleric spells are not automatically on the sorcerer spell list, which means that you cannot use cleric scrolls of cleric spells you do not know. Now of course you would probably not greatly affect the power of divine soul sorcerers by allowing them to use cleric scrolls, but that distinction was likely put there to avoid accidentally breaking the game if future material is released, like how the monk martial arts feature was "was carefully worded to prevent unintended combinations".
again, there is probably nothing to freak out about, and i should probably calm down, but oh boy is this unearthed arcana going to be a lot of fun
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
This is not how Sorcerer spells, Cleric spells, or spell scrolls function.
Sorcerers only know the spells that they know. Full stop. The pool of spells that a Sorcerer can learn is restricted to what is on their class spell list, and any spells that are granted by subclass/feat(s). When you replace a "known spell", you don't know it anymore. It's not "in reserve" or anything like that.
Clerics know all spells that appear on the Cleric list (of a level they can cast). The spells they prepare from the Cleric list are what they are able to actually cast at any given time. The spells that they have not prepared are "in reserve" in the sense that they can completely change their list of prepared spells every day.
Divine Soul Sorcerers simply have access to the basic Cleric spell list to choose their learned spells from, but they do not follow the Cleric spellcasting rules. They are still Sorcerers. When given the option to learn a new spell at level up, the Divine Soul Sorcerer can choose to learn a spell from either the standard Sorcerer or Cleric spell lists. Only the spells that have been chosen from the Cleric list actually count as spells known. Divine Soul Sorcerers do not get to prepare an entirely different spell list every day.
Using a spell scroll has nothing to do with which spells you have learned/prepared. The only thing that matters for using a spell scroll is whether the spell appears on the class spell list(s) for your character. A Divine Soul Sorcerer draws from the class spell lists of both Cleric & Sorcerer. You don't need to do anything special for this. If the spell appears on either the basic Cleric or Sorcerer spell lists, and is of a spell level for which you can normally cast, you can use the scroll. It doesn't matter if you've never actually learned the spell before.
Scribing a spell scroll is completely different, and you can only scribe a scroll for a spell that you actually know. A Divine Soul Sorcerer still doesn't know any spell they haven't picked, and they no longer know any spell that has been previously replaced. Having access to the Cleric spell list does not change the way in which the Sorcerer spellcasting feature functions.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
i am well aware of the differences in how diffrent spellcasting classes operate. I know that druids, clerics and palladins works far diffrently from the way bards, sorcerers and warlocks do. I am also aware of how scrolls work. My concern, if you can call it that, was that if your sorcerer chooses to forget an sorcerer spell they already know (that happened to be learned via the divine magic feature), be it by leveling up or with the new unearthed arcana feature known as "spellcasting versatillity", that despite not knowing the spell, the spell would still be a sorcerer spell for you, here is what the divine spellcasting feature says:
"when your spellcasting feature lets you learn or replace an sorcerer cantrip or an sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher, you can choose the new spell from the cleric spell list or the sorcerer spell list. You must otherwise obey all the restrictions for selecting the spell, and it becomes a sorcerer spell for you."
with this feature, the book establishes an clear method/mechanism to add new cleric spells to the sorcerer spell list, but does not give away an clear mechanism for an cleric spell to cease being on your spell list, it simply says "it becomes an sorcerer spell for you", sort of implying the change is permanent even if the spell is not, that even as i do not know the spell it remains on my personal spell list. Now this is of course subject to how you interpret the rules.
that i do agree with, it has absolutely nothing to do with what spells you know or have prepared at the moment, what matters is that it is on your spell list. But two members of the same class do not always have the same personal spell list, the warlocks subclass-dependent expanded spell lists and the magical secrets features of the bard are great examples of ways in whom your spell list can change, and something similar is indeed true of the divine soul. As the feature says, the spell you learns "becomes" an sorcerer spell for you, meaning like other sorcerer spells, it can be found on your, personal, spell list.
Also please, for the love of moradin souldforger explain what the **** you mean with the quote "You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.", i really must know, please sir i am begging you
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I see where the disconnect is. A Cleric spell does not "become" a Sorcerer spell when you learn it. It doesn't ever become a Sorcerer spell. All that happens is that, when you learn a spell (as a Divine Soul Sorcerer) off of the Cleric class spell list, you treat the spell as if it were a Sorcerer spell. I.e., you can cast it using Charisma as your spellcasting ability, and it is eligible for use with your Sorcerer features. That's it.
It might be easier for you to consider things like this: A Divine Soul Sorcerer is not a Cleric. It will never be a Cleric. A level taken in DSS is not a level taken in Cleric. All-That-Is-Cleric is entirely divorced from All-That-Is-Sorcerer. A Divine Soul Sorcerer is just a regular Sorcerer with a larger range of potential spells to learn.
A known spell that you have chosen to replace (via whatever method) is no longer a spell known. It isn't on your "personal spell list" anymore. Whether it was originally from the Cleric or Sorcerer class spell list is irrelevant; you don't know it anymore.
As for my signature, have you played Curse of Strahd? I'll send you a message after I leave the office if you're actually interested in hearing about it. 😂
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
from the way i see it, the term "sorcerer spell" or "wizard spell" or the like refers to two things: spells cast as an sorcerer or an wizard or spells or spells that simply appear on their respective spell list, but yeah your interpretation is probably correct in this case.
also i am not stupid. I know that charisma is me spellcasting abillity for sorcerer spells, and that is the way it will always be for all spells. Stop assuming i am a dumbass who never read the rules, i am not
how do sorcerers even use scrolls in the first place? for all the other classes what they are doing makes sense, druids and clerics are reading the instructions as prayers, wizards are followwing the formula of the spell, using the unique gestures to pluck strands of the weave and weaving them into an desirered effect, bards read them as chords on their instrument and vocals for their song, and depending on your interpretation of the lore and how you flavor things ether warlocks are just wizards who happen to be learning all their arcane secrets from an patron, thus your reading of the scroll is no diffrent to a wizard, or you reading the scroll and casting the spell is a matter of you requesting the desirered effect from your patron.
but the magic of sorcerers comes directly from within them, their spells are part of them, how could they ever cast an spell by following instructions? it could be said that you are simply channeling the energy within you in ways you where previously unable to, or it could be said that really you just cast spells like a wizard, the only difference being that your spells are not learned but rather etched into your muscle memory, that like how they describe it in chapter ten page 205 "[arcane magic] relies on an understanding -learned or intuitive- of the workings of the weave. The caster plucks directly at the strands of the desired effect" so then sorcerers do not really blast energy from within themselves, they just happen to know exactly how to move in just the right ways i order to trigger the right effect, and so just happen to be touched my a magical heritage whom lets them do that better.
okay. Guess that is kinda neat.
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
First, I'm not insinuating that you're stupid. I apologize if that's how I'm being perceived. I'm just trying to help clarify things for you.
Scrolls are just really weird in this edition. I find it makes sense to think about their mechanics this way:
Scrolls are kinda like a novelty can of nuts that explodes with spring-snakes when you open the top. Someone primed & packed all those snakes (magic power) in the can (scroll), and some kind of written instructions--"this side up", "point away from face", "not for Clerics", etc. Pop the top, boom you're connected to the Weave, and snakes are everywhere.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
if i remember correctly, scrolls were only divided into arcane and divine in 3.5e, and for the other editions i have no clue, but i just see it as every class reading the careful instructions in a diffrent way, and that is why it is usable by all kinds of classes
"Pop the top, boom you're connected to the Weave, and snakes are everywhere." is an perfect out-of context quote, may i use it for other things?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
You can absolutely use that quote!
The biggest thing to remember about 5e is that, well, it's not anything but 5e. They've carried forward a lot of the more solid aspects of past editions, and magic/crafting is one of the bigger departures from the past. I also recall scrolls in 3.5e being like potions; anyone could use 'em, and they didn't need to be a caster either. 5e went a totally different way.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
It's just that the source of a Sorcerer's spellcasting ability comes from within. They weren't given it, nor did they have to learn it. Metamagic is an extension of that. They still have to understand the use of VSM components to actually cast the spell. So a scroll with instuctions of the right verbal or somatic components allows them to cast that particular spell. So long as that spell is on their list, they are familiar enough with the components to make the spell work that one time. If it's not on their list, the components are so foreign to them that they can't make it work. Think of it like knowing what all the ingredients in your kitchen are, but only when you have a specific recipe can you make Grandma's cookies.