Hi - I'm rolling my first Divine Soul and/or Sorcerer and had some post-Tasha's questions. I'll be the primary healer, but we also have a Twilight Cleric and Bear Totem Barb along with a Fighter and a Swarmkeeper to round out the party. I've read lots of the various forum posts and builds so I feel like I have a pretty good handle...the subclass can go in so many directions!
We are starting at Level 3 and going to 15, and with Tasha's out I wanted to know what folks thought of this kit. I'm playing as a Forest Gnome with the +2 INT > CHA, which nets me a free Minor Illusion to hide and Gnome Cunning. Part of the flavor of the character is that he grew up with Clerics who idolized him and he thought they were all nerds, so the character is purposely not taking a Level 1 Cleric dip (which means no Med Armor). He has the spells already, right?
Any feedback would be appreciated...my big fear is that maybe I need Mage Armor + Shield to account for the lack of Medium Armor. I may be overthinking it.
Level 3
Metamagic - Twinned, Extended
Cantrips
*Minor Illusion
Guidance
Mind Sliver
Ray of Frost
Mage Hand
Level 1 Spells
*Healing Word (converting from Cure Wounds)
Sanctuary
Absorb Elements
Level 2 Spells
Aid
Spiritual Weapon
Divine Soul Level 4 pickups
Cantrip
Blade Ward
Spell
Warding Bond
Feat - Inspiring Leader OR Metamagic Adept
Borrowed Tactics
Mind Sliver + Sanctuary + Absorb Elements Defense - One of the guides I read suggested using Bane + Sanctuary as a bread-and-butter combo to help avoid incoming attacks, and by twinning Mind Sliver I thought it could have a similar effect while not wasting a Level 1 spell-slot at the expense of a Sorcery Point. Combined with Ray of Frost to slow incoming enemies, I figured with the 25 Speed of the Forest Gnome investing in these is more beneficial than marginal cantrip damage output.
Aid + Extended Spell - At 5th level, the Aid bumps up to 10HP/per so that's 50 extra HP per day for a Sorcery point.
Warding Bond + Blade Ward - It just seems smart if I'm going to be avoiding attacks with Sanctuary. I have to hold off until Level 4 because I don't have the 100gp for material cost. The Fighter in my group will probably be my BFF for this combo.
Choices
Level 4 Feat - Many of the builds I've read suggest Inspiring Leader, but not sure if that is worth it when Metamagic Adept on the table. Quickened and Subtle Spell + 2 Sorcery Points would appear to be more versatile at Level 4 and get me out of potential scrambles, and with a Bear Totem in the group I don't think investing in that many temp HP points is worth it. For now.
Omissions
Bless - The big omission...I dropped it only because we have the Twilight Cleric in the party. I will probably not be receiving the Cleric's buffs so we'll see how that goes I guess.
I would think hard about Blade Ward and Sanctuary. They both seem sub-optimal for taking up known spells. Not sure warding bond and blade ward would stack. Warding bond says that it does damage equal to what the target takes, but not what type. If you want to call it the same type then blade ward only protects from physical attacks, not poison, thunder etc. Even being real kind that leaves a huge hole in that combo.
My question, on rereading, is why go divine soul? You seem to want to fill the cleric/healing niche, but you already have a cleric. Seems to me that your group is lacking in arcane attack power more than anything. Your build seem to be surviving as long as you can (and to a degree helping others to survive) but offense is often the best defense. I would think a wizard, with their access to ritual casting would be much more useful to the party.
Personally I wouldn't worry about inspiring leader. The added HP aren't that much, even though you can do it multiple times a day. I am DMing a group at the moment with the feat being used and it is +10 HP to the group. But that is really only 1/2 a hit. Metamagic or the ability score increase or another feat will be better for you IMO. Same with Aid. It is a nice spell, but a huge commitment for a single cast a day. Granted you can cast this more than once, but at a spell slot per cast you are generally going to be better with cure wounds or healing word IMO unless you are taking a lot of AOE damage.
End of they day have fun, but seems to me you are overlapping with other roles quite a bit.
Thanks for the quick response! I had agreed to be healer before everyone had settled on a class if that helps. I agree with a lot of your points - having a more arcane caster is something I noticed.
I may ask to switch classes...I’m excited to play a passive healer, but yeah I don’t think group dynamics dictate it so I’m really glad to have an outside DM perspective.
Sanctuary does seem flimsy although useful if you can guess correctly it seems alright. Medium Armor definitely takes it a bit further.
I am sure others will give you better advice. I am playing a divine soul in a Saltmarsh campaign and I love it.
Remember you have the best of both worlds - arcane and divine casting. Trouble is going to be the low number of spells known and also concentration. Also know that (RAW) there are (almost) no items etc to increase Charisma. Hence why the ASI to Cha may be better than a feat. The bloodvial in Tashas does at least get you a DC increase.
In this edition direct damage spells and healing spells are pretty lackluster IMO. Better off with buff and debuff. Bless or Bane will do more "healing" or "damage" than most spells (because of extra misses or hits). It is just harder to see. Polymorph is probably going to be a better "heal" than a level 4 cure wounds for example - I look forward to playing with this next session, especially twinning it. Again, you can't see it which is why people tend to ignore them IMO.
With all due respect, I'm going to have to echo the idea that you'll probably be happier as a regular arcanist of some kind than trying to be primary healer in a party with someone else already doing healer. Not that it can't work, having two healers, but a lot of this build seems to be based around spell combos that I'm not certain you'll have the slots for, and I don't' think some of the combos actually work.
I'm not sure about your Metamagic choices. Twin is great, but Extend is generally not that great for combat buffs - it works well for out of combat things like social or stealth abilities, but most combat-based spells like Sanctuary or Aid won't see a lot of benefit - you usually don't fight combats back-to-back, so even extended combat buffs wear off usually between fights. Well, some people swear by Extend + Aid, and others think its meaningless, so I guess it'll depend on your DM? The whole timing thing can get weird.
I'd also suggest against casting Aid as a 3rd level spell - those slots should be reserved for things like Fly, Counterspell, Fireball, Revify, Spiritual Guardians. Game changing effects. In general, its not worth casting a level 1 or 2 spell as a level 3+ spell. Likewise, 3, 4 and 5 generally aren't worth casting as a 6+ spell. These are spellcaster milestones, because each spell are generally far superior to the previous levels.
Sorcerers don't get any kind of armor, light, medium or otherwise. So, without Shield and Mage Armor, you're very vulnerable. And relying on Sanctuary is going to drain spell slots FAST. Spell slots that a dedicated healer should be saving for Healing Word. Plus, you wouldn't be able to use Mind Sliver or Spiritual Weapon while in Sanctuary.
The way the combo works is like this - you cast Bane, THEN set up Sanctuary, but not the other way around. Once Sanctuary is cast, you cast anything that affects an enemy, the Sanctuary falls. That includes Mind Sliver or attacking with Guardians. Keeping Concentration on a debuffing spell already cast earlier? Strictly by the RAW, not a problem. But doing anything else that affects an enemy while under Sanctuary is going to cause the spell to fail. Sanctuary is a great spell for a pacifist character that focuses entirely on buffing and healing, but you can't include any attack spells in that repertoire.
Blade Ward is a terrible, terrible cantrip. Its self only, requires your action to use, doesn't combo with Warding Bond. I'm sorry, but it just won't work the way you'd like it to.
Like you I decided to play a divine soul to be the healer before everyone else chose. The party ended up with a cleric and a bard with healing spells. So I changed focus since we needed someone who could do a lot of damage. We started at Level 3. It worked out really, really well for all of us. Is your cleric resistant to doing healing making you the default healer? Divine Souls are decent healers but nowhere near as good as a dedicated cleric. Clerics can prepare spells each day. You only get 16 by Level 20 and can only change one out when you level up. That means you have to choose wisely.
Some things I would consider rather than switching to wizard (unless you love wizards and really want to play one). Toll the Dead is your friend. You can do a lot of damage, and if you hit something that's already hurting your damage increases to a d12. You can also twin it. Sacred Flame is a good choice because there aren't a lot of things out there resistant to radiant damage.
Bless or Bane is good. I liked Bane but my party would have preferred Bless :-) Guiding Bolt at Level 1. People are always down on it because it is a melee roll but it does serious damage when it does hit and you can twin it, possibly taking out two targets at the same time. The Barbarian will love you because he will get advantage if the spell sticks. I got a lot of milage out of that spell. Healing Word is fine to add some extra healing to the party. I didn't bother since the cleric and bard had that covered. I did take Mass Cure Wounds when I got up to that level.
Spiritual Weapon at Level 2 is a solid choice. One of my favorite things to do was twin Toll the Dead so I hit two targets and then hit a third with my Spiritual Weapon.
You have to protect yourself. I would probably go Mage Armor then grab Shield once you get to a higher level and the monsters hit harder. Keep in mind that you can twin Mage Armor. I had to do that for our Bard once.
You need fireball or lightning bolt when the time comes. With a barbarian in the party, the ability to twin Haste is great. Counterspell is also very important.
Your Level 3 spells should include one defensive spell for you - Thunder Step, Misty Step, Blink or Mirror Image. You don't do your party any good if you are taken out early.
If it sounds heavy on the sorcerer spells, it is. Sorcerers are glass canons and ideally should stay in the back. Cleric spells are mostly close up - healing spells that require touch or being 30 ft away (shudder). They can wear armor, sorcerers can't. One advantage you will have over clerics is your ability to maintain concentration better, plus your metamagic.
I would ditch Extend, it really won't do much for you. Subtle is great. Empowered can be useful. Quicken breaks the action economy but it's expensive, as is Heighten (a personal favorite). Transmute might be helpful. You won't need the 50 gold for Chromatic Orb.
There's no need for a primary healer in D&D. There's a need for damage dealers that have access to some healing and cleansing magic, but there's simply no need for a primary healer. You simply don't have the spell slots to out-heal the damage that your party will take. It's more effective to use your action in battle to buff your allies, to deal damage to the enemy or to do crowd control on the enemy than it is to try to heal through the damage the enemy is doing to your party. It's intended for parties to take short rests and long rests as the primary method to recovering hit points, rather than using spell slots as the primary method for recovering hit points.
At level 3, you'll have 6 spell slots per long rest, and 3 sorcery points, which lets you get one more 2nd level spell slot (if you don't use any metamagic options). At level 5, you'll have 9 spell slots per long rest and 5 sorcery points, which lets you get two more spell slots (one 1st level, one 2nd level). And you're really weakening your Sorcerer if all you're using your Sorcery Points for is to create more spell slots.
The number of turns that your party will spend in combat between long rests should be far greater than the number of turns that you have spell slots for, and the amount of damage that your party takes will be far far more than you can heal through with those spell slots. Not only would you only have this small number of spell slots, but a few of these spell slots should be used for buffs prior to combat, such as Mage Armor or Aid. And from the spell slots that you do have left, it'd be better to use some powerful buff spells like Bless or powerful damaging spells like Fireball instead of just using your precious few spell slots for Healing spells.
I don't know where you've been doing your reading, but you've got a lot of misconceptions. I don't know where anyone would be recommending using your sorcery points for a twinned Mind Sliver. I don't know where anyone would be recommending doing extend spell on Aid. I don't know where anyone would be recommending using Blade Ward.
Instead of thinking of yourself as the primary healer, think of yourself as a damage dealer with some healing and restoration magic to use when needed.
I'm running a divine soul and find twinned guiding bolt to be fantastic. Aid, spiritual weapon, and healing word all work great. Pick some kind of concentration spell, and you'll have everything covered.
The idea behind Extend Aid and Extend Death Ward is that it turns these 8 hour spells into 16 hour spells. Therefore, you can cast these spells just before a Long Rest (using all remaining slots and points) and still have 8 hours left when you wake up. You now have bonus hp for the entire party, immunity to one death each, and have all of your spell slots or sorcery points. It's crazy good. If someone (possibly you) take the Inspiring Leader feat as well you may never have to heal the party again.
Hi - I'm rolling my first Divine Soul and/or Sorcerer and had some post-Tasha's questions. I'll be the primary healer, but we also have a Twilight Cleric and Bear Totem Barb along with a Fighter and a Swarmkeeper to round out the party. I've read lots of the various forum posts and builds so I feel like I have a pretty good handle...the subclass can go in so many directions!
We are starting at Level 3 and going to 15, and with Tasha's out I wanted to know what folks thought of this kit. I'm playing as a Forest Gnome with the +2 INT > CHA, which nets me a free Minor Illusion to hide and Gnome Cunning. Part of the flavor of the character is that he grew up with Clerics who idolized him and he thought they were all nerds, so the character is purposely not taking a Level 1 Cleric dip (which means no Med Armor). He has the spells already, right?
Any feedback would be appreciated...my big fear is that maybe I need Mage Armor + Shield to account for the lack of Medium Armor. I may be overthinking it.
Level 3
Metamagic - Twinned, Extended
Cantrips
*Minor Illusion
Guidance
Mind Sliver
Ray of Frost
Mage Hand
Level 1 Spells
*Healing Word (converting from Cure Wounds)
Sanctuary
Absorb Elements
Level 2 Spells
Aid
Spiritual Weapon
Divine Soul Level 4 pickups
Cantrip
Spell
Warding Bond
Feat - Inspiring Leader OR Metamagic Adept
Borrowed Tactics
Omissions
Bless - The big omission...I dropped it only because we have the Twilight Cleric in the party. I will probably not be receiving the Cleric's buffs so we'll see how that goes I guess.
Thanks in advance for any feedback!
Not what I would do but seems reasonable.
I would think hard about Blade Ward and Sanctuary. They both seem sub-optimal for taking up known spells.
Not sure warding bond and blade ward would stack. Warding bond says that it does damage equal to what the target takes, but not what type. If you want to call it the same type then blade ward only protects from physical attacks, not poison, thunder etc. Even being real kind that leaves a huge hole in that combo.
My question, on rereading, is why go divine soul? You seem to want to fill the cleric/healing niche, but you already have a cleric. Seems to me that your group is lacking in arcane attack power more than anything. Your build seem to be surviving as long as you can (and to a degree helping others to survive) but offense is often the best defense. I would think a wizard, with their access to ritual casting would be much more useful to the party.
Personally I wouldn't worry about inspiring leader. The added HP aren't that much, even though you can do it multiple times a day. I am DMing a group at the moment with the feat being used and it is +10 HP to the group. But that is really only 1/2 a hit. Metamagic or the ability score increase or another feat will be better for you IMO. Same with Aid. It is a nice spell, but a huge commitment for a single cast a day. Granted you can cast this more than once, but at a spell slot per cast you are generally going to be better with cure wounds or healing word IMO unless you are taking a lot of AOE damage.
End of they day have fun, but seems to me you are overlapping with other roles quite a bit.
Thanks for the quick response! I had agreed to be healer before everyone had settled on a class if that helps. I agree with a lot of your points - having a more arcane caster is something I noticed.
I may ask to switch classes...I’m excited to play a passive healer, but yeah I don’t think group dynamics dictate it so I’m really glad to have an outside DM perspective.
Sanctuary does seem flimsy although useful if you can guess correctly it seems alright. Medium Armor definitely takes it a bit further.
Thanks for your help!
I am sure others will give you better advice. I am playing a divine soul in a Saltmarsh campaign and I love it.
Remember you have the best of both worlds - arcane and divine casting. Trouble is going to be the low number of spells known and also concentration. Also know that (RAW) there are (almost) no items etc to increase Charisma. Hence why the ASI to Cha may be better than a feat. The bloodvial in Tashas does at least get you a DC increase.
In this edition direct damage spells and healing spells are pretty lackluster IMO. Better off with buff and debuff. Bless or Bane will do more "healing" or "damage" than most spells (because of extra misses or hits). It is just harder to see. Polymorph is probably going to be a better "heal" than a level 4 cure wounds for example - I look forward to playing with this next session, especially twinning it. Again, you can't see it which is why people tend to ignore them IMO.
With all due respect, I'm going to have to echo the idea that you'll probably be happier as a regular arcanist of some kind than trying to be primary healer in a party with someone else already doing healer. Not that it can't work, having two healers, but a lot of this build seems to be based around spell combos that I'm not certain you'll have the slots for, and I don't' think some of the combos actually work.
I'm not sure about your Metamagic choices. Twin is great, but Extend is generally not that great for combat buffs - it works well for out of combat things like social or stealth abilities, but most combat-based spells like Sanctuary or Aid won't see a lot of benefit - you usually don't fight combats back-to-back, so even extended combat buffs wear off usually between fights. Well, some people swear by Extend + Aid, and others think its meaningless, so I guess it'll depend on your DM? The whole timing thing can get weird.
I'd also suggest against casting Aid as a 3rd level spell - those slots should be reserved for things like Fly, Counterspell, Fireball, Revify, Spiritual Guardians. Game changing effects. In general, its not worth casting a level 1 or 2 spell as a level 3+ spell. Likewise, 3, 4 and 5 generally aren't worth casting as a 6+ spell. These are spellcaster milestones, because each spell are generally far superior to the previous levels.
Sorcerers don't get any kind of armor, light, medium or otherwise. So, without Shield and Mage Armor, you're very vulnerable. And relying on Sanctuary is going to drain spell slots FAST. Spell slots that a dedicated healer should be saving for Healing Word. Plus, you wouldn't be able to use Mind Sliver or Spiritual Weapon while in Sanctuary.
The way the combo works is like this - you cast Bane, THEN set up Sanctuary, but not the other way around. Once Sanctuary is cast, you cast anything that affects an enemy, the Sanctuary falls. That includes Mind Sliver or attacking with Guardians. Keeping Concentration on a debuffing spell already cast earlier? Strictly by the RAW, not a problem. But doing anything else that affects an enemy while under Sanctuary is going to cause the spell to fail. Sanctuary is a great spell for a pacifist character that focuses entirely on buffing and healing, but you can't include any attack spells in that repertoire.
Blade Ward is a terrible, terrible cantrip. Its self only, requires your action to use, doesn't combo with Warding Bond. I'm sorry, but it just won't work the way you'd like it to.
What everyone else said but ...
Like you I decided to play a divine soul to be the healer before everyone else chose. The party ended up with a cleric and a bard with healing spells. So I changed focus since we needed someone who could do a lot of damage. We started at Level 3. It worked out really, really well for all of us. Is your cleric resistant to doing healing making you the default healer? Divine Souls are decent healers but nowhere near as good as a dedicated cleric. Clerics can prepare spells each day. You only get 16 by Level 20 and can only change one out when you level up. That means you have to choose wisely.
Some things I would consider rather than switching to wizard (unless you love wizards and really want to play one). Toll the Dead is your friend. You can do a lot of damage, and if you hit something that's already hurting your damage increases to a d12. You can also twin it. Sacred Flame is a good choice because there aren't a lot of things out there resistant to radiant damage.
Bless or Bane is good. I liked Bane but my party would have preferred Bless :-) Guiding Bolt at Level 1. People are always down on it because it is a melee roll but it does serious damage when it does hit and you can twin it, possibly taking out two targets at the same time. The Barbarian will love you because he will get advantage if the spell sticks. I got a lot of milage out of that spell. Healing Word is fine to add some extra healing to the party. I didn't bother since the cleric and bard had that covered. I did take Mass Cure Wounds when I got up to that level.
Spiritual Weapon at Level 2 is a solid choice. One of my favorite things to do was twin Toll the Dead so I hit two targets and then hit a third with my Spiritual Weapon.
You have to protect yourself. I would probably go Mage Armor then grab Shield once you get to a higher level and the monsters hit harder. Keep in mind that you can twin Mage Armor. I had to do that for our Bard once.
You need fireball or lightning bolt when the time comes. With a barbarian in the party, the ability to twin Haste is great. Counterspell is also very important.
Your Level 3 spells should include one defensive spell for you - Thunder Step, Misty Step, Blink or Mirror Image. You don't do your party any good if you are taken out early.
If it sounds heavy on the sorcerer spells, it is. Sorcerers are glass canons and ideally should stay in the back. Cleric spells are mostly close up - healing spells that require touch or being 30 ft away (shudder). They can wear armor, sorcerers can't. One advantage you will have over clerics is your ability to maintain concentration better, plus your metamagic.
I would ditch Extend, it really won't do much for you. Subtle is great. Empowered can be useful. Quicken breaks the action economy but it's expensive, as is Heighten (a personal favorite). Transmute might be helpful. You won't need the 50 gold for Chromatic Orb.
Hope some of this helps.
There's no need for a primary healer in D&D. There's a need for damage dealers that have access to some healing and cleansing magic, but there's simply no need for a primary healer. You simply don't have the spell slots to out-heal the damage that your party will take. It's more effective to use your action in battle to buff your allies, to deal damage to the enemy or to do crowd control on the enemy than it is to try to heal through the damage the enemy is doing to your party. It's intended for parties to take short rests and long rests as the primary method to recovering hit points, rather than using spell slots as the primary method for recovering hit points.
At level 3, you'll have 6 spell slots per long rest, and 3 sorcery points, which lets you get one more 2nd level spell slot (if you don't use any metamagic options). At level 5, you'll have 9 spell slots per long rest and 5 sorcery points, which lets you get two more spell slots (one 1st level, one 2nd level). And you're really weakening your Sorcerer if all you're using your Sorcery Points for is to create more spell slots.
The number of turns that your party will spend in combat between long rests should be far greater than the number of turns that you have spell slots for, and the amount of damage that your party takes will be far far more than you can heal through with those spell slots. Not only would you only have this small number of spell slots, but a few of these spell slots should be used for buffs prior to combat, such as Mage Armor or Aid. And from the spell slots that you do have left, it'd be better to use some powerful buff spells like Bless or powerful damaging spells like Fireball instead of just using your precious few spell slots for Healing spells.
I don't know where you've been doing your reading, but you've got a lot of misconceptions. I don't know where anyone would be recommending using your sorcery points for a twinned Mind Sliver. I don't know where anyone would be recommending doing extend spell on Aid. I don't know where anyone would be recommending using Blade Ward.
Instead of thinking of yourself as the primary healer, think of yourself as a damage dealer with some healing and restoration magic to use when needed.
I'm running a divine soul and find twinned guiding bolt to be fantastic. Aid, spiritual weapon, and healing word all work great. Pick some kind of concentration spell, and you'll have everything covered.
The idea behind Extend Aid and Extend Death Ward is that it turns these 8 hour spells into 16 hour spells.
Therefore, you can cast these spells just before a Long Rest (using all remaining slots and points) and still have 8 hours left when you wake up.
You now have bonus hp for the entire party, immunity to one death each, and have all of your spell slots or sorcery points.
It's crazy good. If someone (possibly you) take the Inspiring Leader feat as well you may never have to heal the party again.