The 6th level AM feature + a bloodwell vial is pretty amazing. Use your sorcery points for 1st and 2nd level spells, then get 5 metamagic points back on a SHORT rest. Wowza. Sure, you can only use it once per day but still, that's a big boost to your overall firepower.
I think that CS and AM subclasses are superior to the others, but they do highlight a key point - having more spells is great, but having more of the right spells is way better. The AM extra spell list in particular is weak (with a few standouts), but even the options to swap into are not as strong as what the CS gets. Still, the mileage you will get out of Dissonant Whispers alone is quite substantial.
I'm torn if the other subclasses should also get a more spells known list. On one hand, AM and CS are now the hexblade of the sorcerers, that is it's hard to pick any other subclass over that one because of the huge benefits. That is never good. On the other hand, buffing all of the Sorcerer classes could really elevate them in power and make them closer to Wizards in reputation and overall usefulness. I think the known spells lists would require a LOT of careful consideration to make sure that they dont overpower the class.
FWIW, I am currently playing a AM Sorcerer(4)/Light Cleric(1) and its pretty fun. Dissonant whispers is such a damn good spell to twin, cast alone, upcast... Also, I really need to play a straight caster someday, and not take an armor dip into another class. Maybe I will change my tune with a 14 AC, but my 18 AC Sorcerer seems like a pretty powerful character.
FWIW, I am currently playing a AM Sorcerer(4)/Light Cleric(1) and its pretty fun. Dissonant whispers is such a damn good spell to twin, cast alone, upcast... Also, I really need to play a straight caster someday, and not take an armor dip into another class. Maybe I will change my tune with a 14 AC, but my 18 AC Sorcerer seems like a pretty powerful character.
Oh man, if you multiclass dip an AM sorc into Cleric how do you not go with either Order or Peace?? Both of which have strong abilities that lend themselves to your mind control theme, just, targeting allies. Either you can link their minds (Peace), or you can guide their actions directly (Order).
Anyway. My suggestion to anyone playing the AM is to pick up silvery barbs as one of your 1st level Psionic Spells. Being able to cast this all the time and for cheap and without components means in combat, exploring, even in social settings you can barbz it to win it. It is a great spell whose normal limiting factor is your number of 1st level slots. But for you, an AM, you're unshackled by that limitation.
Eg. At 6th level you could Barbs only 4 times from 1st level slots. Thats true of any caster who has it. But you can also do 6 times from sorcery points... and then converting 2nd level slots to sp, another 6 times. Then 3rd to sp, another 9 times. Not that you should ever need to do this, only that you can. That's 25 Barbs a day though, if you needed, at only L6. You're a fatespinner better than any other.
(And if you took my Order Cleric dip advice above that's potentially 25 attacks you gave to allies)
Obviously, like I said, you shouldn't be aiming to use Barbs that often, but having it as one of your psionic spells just means you always have it and can always afford to use it to swing events in your favor. The perfect always useful spell to fill in the cracks of your spelllist with.
As for other spell choices, 2nd level are hard to choose, you got good options. I'd like to point out that by psionic casting Detect Thoughts or Suggestion you can cast these in public with no one being the wiser, extremely useful social settings utility. Tasha Mind Whip is good in combat though, so efficient casting this is also nice.
At 3rd level spells I have to suggest Enemies Abound. It is simply amazing with an AM. Chef's kiss. 100 out of 10. Just the best. You can, while just in the middle of a speech at a banquet cause a dude to flip out and start murdering people, and no components needed, no one can even tell you did anything. Just. Wow.
Twin spell is probably a must have on AM. Telekinetic is a good thematic fit and useful utility.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
FWIW, I am currently playing a AM Sorcerer(4)/Light Cleric(1) and its pretty fun. Dissonant whispers is such a damn good spell to twin, cast alone, upcast... Also, I really need to play a straight caster someday, and not take an armor dip into another class. Maybe I will change my tune with a 14 AC, but my 18 AC Sorcerer seems like a pretty powerful character.
Oh man, if you multiclass dip an AM sorc into Cleric how do you not go with either Order or Peace?? Both of which have strong abilities that lend themselves to your mind control theme, just, targeting allies. Either you can link their minds (Peace), or you can guide their actions directly (Order).
Both probably better choices, but my race is Aasimar so I liked the radiant consumption and other light-infused abilities. I was lucky to have rolled a decent wisdom score, so I have 2 uses of the light cleric's defensive warding flare as well.
Plus, even though I multiclassed into cleric as sort of a min/max deal, I sorta felt bad when I realized that I could do the peace cleric embodying bond AND bless at the same time and add (in some cases) 2d4 to everyone's attach and saving throw rolls. It felt like I was cheating lol.
@stratoburn, it seems like Dissonant whispers is one of those really fun spells, too, how are you roleplaying/flavoring it?
I'm flavoring it as a psychic scream, which makes it look/feel so much more badass. When the martials hit something and it screams in pain or protest, I followed up with "Thats it? I'll show you a scream" and then cast it. :) fun little power trip there haha.
At 3rd level spells I have to suggest Enemies Abound. It is simply amazing with an AM. Chef's kiss. 100 out of 10. Just the best. You can, while just in the middle of a speech at a banquet cause a dude to flip out and start murdering people, and no components needed, no one can even tell you did anything. Just. Wow.
I didnt even think of this. Oh my. Oh my DM is going to hate you.
Wild magic definately needs an expanded spell list. A huge buff in general as it's feature is not only potentially harmful, they expend extra skills on it and it can be all negated by a GM just not triggering it robbing them of any reason to play them.
Divine Soul doesn't need an expanded spell list (it gets the whole cleric list as options), but an extra spell or two that has to be a cleric spell would help out a lot when trying to cram two entire spell lists into one, very limited, spell selection.
It is an accepted opinion that Sorcerers are inferior to Wizards as a class. Has anyone played the new Tasha's subclasses (with magical guidance variant CF)? If so, how good are these subclasses compared to pre-Tasha's? Have the expanded spell list made a difference at all in your experience? Should the old subclasses receive also an expanded spell list? Are Sorcerers good enough with the addition of magical guidance and the extra spells? What expanded spell list would you like in other subclasses like Draconic Bloodline or Divine Soul, etc?
No it is not accepted.
No class is "superior" or "inferior". Due to the mechanics, spells and backgrounds, wizards are more flexible and powerful than any other class and can dominate any single pillar of the game if built to do that, or alternatively to do moderately well in all of them if built to be a generalist. That does not make them superior though.
Sorcerers are fine as a class and really excel with a dip to get some great 1st level spells. Wizards are a bit more difficult to dip, because intelligence is not as useful as Charisma and their subclass does not come until level 2.
Personally my favorite subclass is Shadow Sorcerer, especially on a human or halfling where they go from no darkvision to Drow-level darkvision.
I would not give most of the old subclasses an expanded spell list. I might for Storm Sorcerer, both because it is such a weak subclass and because there are very thematic spells they should always have (thunderwave, shatter, gust of wind, call lightning, sleet storm). The other subclasses from the PHB are fine as is IMO and remain popular choices at my table.
I might also do something for Wild Magic where after a long rest they get a random spell knownof each level they can cast, generated from all spell lists. At their next long rest it goes away and is replaced by another random spell.
I just want to point out that my Glamour Bard chose nearly the exact spell list that the AM gets as spells known. And that character was just a Ton of fun to play.
I can only imagine the shenanigans I would have gotten into if I had that list + the subtle casting plus knowing that as a baseline sorcerer I was packing enough raw firepower to deal with whatever unforeseen consequences were coming my way.
Very sorry to Necro but this was the only thread I could find.
I’m looking for spell recommendations for Clockwork Soul Spells for the first 5 ones, I am already thinking of choosing Glyph of Warding for the 5th (sorcerer) level one but I’m not sure about the 1-4th levels.
Assuming you are keeping it confined to level 1, Absorb Elements is a must. Mage Armor + Shield can be extremely useful and you can easily hit 20 AC (13 base +2 Dex mod +5 shield) but it's not universal and I won't fault you for deciding to skip in favor of more spells. Fog Cloud is basically an instant smoke grenade and is very useful as a result. Sleep can be helpful at low levels but you'll likely want to rotate it out in a level or two. Magic Missile can be useful but it's main draw is that it always hits barring some special ability; not it's damage. Plenty of other spells have uses and only a few are 'traps' (like Jump. Unless you're making a FF style dragoon Misty Step will be a better choice).
For second level, Misty Step is utterly invaluable. Darkness is one of those spells that SEEMS useless yet will, somehow, always find a way into combat. Especially if you pick up Devil's Sight or some other way to see inside of it. (Edit: I'm not saying it's useless. Just the opposite. It's quite useful. A lot more useful than a first glance would indicate.) In such a case it's invaluable. Tasha's Mind Whip is freaking OP and investing in it, Mind Sliver, and quickened meta-magic will be a massive boon to your party. Hit the most dangerous foe with a mind sliver then quicken the mind whip and watch their action economy implode. Dragons Breath is surprisingly useful; especially if you twin it onto melee allies. Then they suddenly get a cone attack they can spam every turn.
Don't think of your spells in regards to damage, but as a toolkit. You want hammers in your tool-kit, but you not only want more than just hammers, you'll want different kind of hammers instead of just the 'biggest' ones. Something like darkness may not deal damage, but it keeps the enemy from targeting you. You can either cast this on enemies in a fortified position to force them to move; or on yourself/party to give them all cover. Either way is very useful. You will almost always be in situations where elemental damage will need to be considered so Absorb Elements will ALWAYS be useful. Don't shy away from damage, of course, but a lot of times the best thing you can do will not be related to damage. For example, the Tasha's Mind Whip combo is great because it can take a foe who can multi-attack and chase down the party and put them in a spot where they have to choose between moving and attacking.
By Clockwork Soul spells I assume you mean the Abjuration and Transmutation spells you can switch out with your subclass.
As Snowtorf pointed out Mage Armor, Shield and Absorb Elements are all great, although they are all also available on the regular Sorc list and are probably not the ones I would choose. I would also add Feather Fall and Catapult as great transmutation spells, but also on the Sorc list already
My interpretation of the rules is the spells at 1st level are fixed with Alarm and Protection from Evil and good at level 1. Protection from Evil and Good is an awesome spell and I personally would not get rid of that at all. Level 2 I would get rid of Alarm and take Armor of Agathys from of the Warlock list. This is a great spell, especially when upcast.
Level 3 and 4 you get Aid and Lessor Restoration. Both are solid and can be great depending on the party. I am not sure I would trade either of those in. If you are looking for other options though Rope Trick off of the Wizard list can be a nice spell to have. This is also where I would look at adding the 1st level Abjuration/Transmutation spells that are on the Sorc list, freeing up a regular Sorc spell known to take anything else.
Level 5 and 6 you get Dispel Magic and Protection from Elements. You can trade one of those at level 5, I would certainly get rid of POE as I don't think it is very good. Dispel Magic is a good spell, so I would keep that until at least level 6 and maybe further. As far as off-list spells go, Remove Curse from Warlock or Wizard is probably your best bet here, but a sorcerer spell like Counterspell or again one of the 1st level Abjuration/Transmutation would be a good option too.
Level 7 and 8 you get Summon Construct and Freedom of Movement. I don't like either of these. Summon Construct is odd because it is a Conjuration. In any case I would get rid of these. There is nothing I like here in terms of off-list spells but Polymorph and Banishment are good choices from the Sorc list.
Level 9 and 10 you get Greater Restoration and Wall of Force. Again Wall of Force is a Conjuration. These are both awesome and I probably would keep both of them. Gylph of Warding is a cool spell, but keep in mind it is an hour casting time. I have not found a whole lot of uses for it in play. Greater Restoration and Wall of Force are going to usually be more useful I think.
The 6th level AM feature + a bloodwell vial is pretty amazing. Use your sorcery points for 1st and 2nd level spells, then get 5 metamagic points back on a SHORT rest. Wowza. Sure, you can only use it once per day but still, that's a big boost to your overall firepower.
I think that CS and AM subclasses are superior to the others, but they do highlight a key point - having more spells is great, but having more of the right spells is way better. The AM extra spell list in particular is weak (with a few standouts), but even the options to swap into are not as strong as what the CS gets. Still, the mileage you will get out of Dissonant Whispers alone is quite substantial.
I'm torn if the other subclasses should also get a more spells known list. On one hand, AM and CS are now the hexblade of the sorcerers, that is it's hard to pick any other subclass over that one because of the huge benefits. That is never good. On the other hand, buffing all of the Sorcerer classes could really elevate them in power and make them closer to Wizards in reputation and overall usefulness. I think the known spells lists would require a LOT of careful consideration to make sure that they dont overpower the class.
FWIW, I am currently playing a AM Sorcerer(4)/Light Cleric(1) and its pretty fun. Dissonant whispers is such a damn good spell to twin, cast alone, upcast...
Also, I really need to play a straight caster someday, and not take an armor dip into another class. Maybe I will change my tune with a 14 AC, but my 18 AC Sorcerer seems like a pretty powerful character.
Oh man, if you multiclass dip an AM sorc into Cleric how do you not go with either Order or Peace?? Both of which have strong abilities that lend themselves to your mind control theme, just, targeting allies. Either you can link their minds (Peace), or you can guide their actions directly (Order).
Anyway. My suggestion to anyone playing the AM is to pick up silvery barbs as one of your 1st level Psionic Spells. Being able to cast this all the time and for cheap and without components means in combat, exploring, even in social settings you can barbz it to win it. It is a great spell whose normal limiting factor is your number of 1st level slots. But for you, an AM, you're unshackled by that limitation.
Eg. At 6th level you could Barbs only 4 times from 1st level slots. Thats true of any caster who has it. But you can also do 6 times from sorcery points... and then converting 2nd level slots to sp, another 6 times. Then 3rd to sp, another 9 times. Not that you should ever need to do this, only that you can. That's 25 Barbs a day though, if you needed, at only L6. You're a fatespinner better than any other.
(And if you took my Order Cleric dip advice above that's potentially 25 attacks you gave to allies)
Obviously, like I said, you shouldn't be aiming to use Barbs that often, but having it as one of your psionic spells just means you always have it and can always afford to use it to swing events in your favor. The perfect always useful spell to fill in the cracks of your spelllist with.
As for other spell choices, 2nd level are hard to choose, you got good options. I'd like to point out that by psionic casting Detect Thoughts or Suggestion you can cast these in public with no one being the wiser, extremely useful social settings utility. Tasha Mind Whip is good in combat though, so efficient casting this is also nice.
At 3rd level spells I have to suggest Enemies Abound. It is simply amazing with an AM. Chef's kiss. 100 out of 10. Just the best. You can, while just in the middle of a speech at a banquet cause a dude to flip out and start murdering people, and no components needed, no one can even tell you did anything. Just. Wow.
Twin spell is probably a must have on AM. Telekinetic is a good thematic fit and useful utility.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
@stratoburn, it seems like Dissonant whispers is one of those really fun spells, too, how are you roleplaying/flavoring it?
@MorriganMacha
Thank you, that's exactly the kind of information and feedback that I was looking for!
Both probably better choices, but my race is Aasimar so I liked the radiant consumption and other light-infused abilities. I was lucky to have rolled a decent wisdom score, so I have 2 uses of the light cleric's defensive warding flare as well.
Plus, even though I multiclassed into cleric as sort of a min/max deal, I sorta felt bad when I realized that I could do the peace cleric embodying bond AND bless at the same time and add (in some cases) 2d4 to everyone's attach and saving throw rolls. It felt like I was cheating lol.
I'm flavoring it as a psychic scream, which makes it look/feel so much more badass. When the martials hit something and it screams in pain or protest, I followed up with "Thats it? I'll show you a scream" and then cast it. :) fun little power trip there haha.
I didnt even think of this. Oh my. Oh my DM is going to hate you.
AND ITS an INTELLIGENCE SAVE?? Sweet baby jesus
Wild magic definately needs an expanded spell list. A huge buff in general as it's feature is not only potentially harmful, they expend extra skills on it and it can be all negated by a GM just not triggering it robbing them of any reason to play them.
Divine Soul doesn't need an expanded spell list (it gets the whole cleric list as options), but an extra spell or two that has to be a cleric spell would help out a lot when trying to cram two entire spell lists into one, very limited, spell selection.
No it is not accepted.
No class is "superior" or "inferior". Due to the mechanics, spells and backgrounds, wizards are more flexible and powerful than any other class and can dominate any single pillar of the game if built to do that, or alternatively to do moderately well in all of them if built to be a generalist. That does not make them superior though.
Sorcerers are fine as a class and really excel with a dip to get some great 1st level spells. Wizards are a bit more difficult to dip, because intelligence is not as useful as Charisma and their subclass does not come until level 2.
Personally my favorite subclass is Shadow Sorcerer, especially on a human or halfling where they go from no darkvision to Drow-level darkvision.
I would not give most of the old subclasses an expanded spell list. I might for Storm Sorcerer, both because it is such a weak subclass and because there are very thematic spells they should always have (thunderwave, shatter, gust of wind, call lightning, sleet storm). The other subclasses from the PHB are fine as is IMO and remain popular choices at my table.
I might also do something for Wild Magic where after a long rest they get a random spell knownof each level they can cast, generated from all spell lists. At their next long rest it goes away and is replaced by another random spell.
I just want to point out that my Glamour Bard chose nearly the exact spell list that the AM gets as spells known. And that character was just a Ton of fun to play.
I can only imagine the shenanigans I would have gotten into if I had that list + the subtle casting plus knowing that as a baseline sorcerer I was packing enough raw firepower to deal with whatever unforeseen consequences were coming my way.
Very sorry to Necro but this was the only thread I could find.
I’m looking for spell recommendations for Clockwork Soul Spells for the first 5 ones, I am already thinking of choosing Glyph of Warding for the 5th (sorcerer) level one but I’m not sure about the 1-4th levels.
Reccomendations?
Assuming you are keeping it confined to level 1, Absorb Elements is a must. Mage Armor + Shield can be extremely useful and you can easily hit 20 AC (13 base +2 Dex mod +5 shield) but it's not universal and I won't fault you for deciding to skip in favor of more spells. Fog Cloud is basically an instant smoke grenade and is very useful as a result. Sleep can be helpful at low levels but you'll likely want to rotate it out in a level or two. Magic Missile can be useful but it's main draw is that it always hits barring some special ability; not it's damage. Plenty of other spells have uses and only a few are 'traps' (like Jump. Unless you're making a FF style dragoon Misty Step will be a better choice).
For second level, Misty Step is utterly invaluable. Darkness is one of those spells that SEEMS useless yet will, somehow, always find a way into combat. Especially if you pick up Devil's Sight or some other way to see inside of it. (Edit: I'm not saying it's useless. Just the opposite. It's quite useful. A lot more useful than a first glance would indicate.) In such a case it's invaluable. Tasha's Mind Whip is freaking OP and investing in it, Mind Sliver, and quickened meta-magic will be a massive boon to your party. Hit the most dangerous foe with a mind sliver then quicken the mind whip and watch their action economy implode. Dragons Breath is surprisingly useful; especially if you twin it onto melee allies. Then they suddenly get a cone attack they can spam every turn.
Don't think of your spells in regards to damage, but as a toolkit. You want hammers in your tool-kit, but you not only want more than just hammers, you'll want different kind of hammers instead of just the 'biggest' ones. Something like darkness may not deal damage, but it keeps the enemy from targeting you. You can either cast this on enemies in a fortified position to force them to move; or on yourself/party to give them all cover. Either way is very useful. You will almost always be in situations where elemental damage will need to be considered so Absorb Elements will ALWAYS be useful. Don't shy away from damage, of course, but a lot of times the best thing you can do will not be related to damage. For example, the Tasha's Mind Whip combo is great because it can take a foe who can multi-attack and chase down the party and put them in a spot where they have to choose between moving and attacking.
By Clockwork Soul spells I assume you mean the Abjuration and Transmutation spells you can switch out with your subclass.
As Snowtorf pointed out Mage Armor, Shield and Absorb Elements are all great, although they are all also available on the regular Sorc list and are probably not the ones I would choose. I would also add Feather Fall and Catapult as great transmutation spells, but also on the Sorc list already
My interpretation of the rules is the spells at 1st level are fixed with Alarm and Protection from Evil and good at level 1. Protection from Evil and Good is an awesome spell and I personally would not get rid of that at all. Level 2 I would get rid of Alarm and take Armor of Agathys from of the Warlock list. This is a great spell, especially when upcast.
Level 3 and 4 you get Aid and Lessor Restoration. Both are solid and can be great depending on the party. I am not sure I would trade either of those in. If you are looking for other options though Rope Trick off of the Wizard list can be a nice spell to have. This is also where I would look at adding the 1st level Abjuration/Transmutation spells that are on the Sorc list, freeing up a regular Sorc spell known to take anything else.
Level 5 and 6 you get Dispel Magic and Protection from Elements. You can trade one of those at level 5, I would certainly get rid of POE as I don't think it is very good. Dispel Magic is a good spell, so I would keep that until at least level 6 and maybe further. As far as off-list spells go, Remove Curse from Warlock or Wizard is probably your best bet here, but a sorcerer spell like Counterspell or again one of the 1st level Abjuration/Transmutation would be a good option too.
Level 7 and 8 you get Summon Construct and Freedom of Movement. I don't like either of these. Summon Construct is odd because it is a Conjuration. In any case I would get rid of these. There is nothing I like here in terms of off-list spells but Polymorph and Banishment are good choices from the Sorc list.
Level 9 and 10 you get Greater Restoration and Wall of Force. Again Wall of Force is a Conjuration. These are both awesome and I probably would keep both of them. Gylph of Warding is a cool spell, but keep in mind it is an hour casting time. I have not found a whole lot of uses for it in play. Greater Restoration and Wall of Force are going to usually be more useful I think.