You can also do like a cleric and simply dodge. The Dodge action is quite effective when you have spirit guardians up as a blender. What you really need to figure out is what your bonus action is going to be used for every round.
Honestly, I would heavily consider dropping the hexblade for a cleaner progression since blade ward/dodge could easily be your primary actions. Making that build an EB spammer doesn't seem necessary. Getting spirit guardians at level 5 is a big deal.
I never even looked at ward thank you both! I also tried re working it last night since were playing @lvl 9 going clock 8 (and continuing on with just it) and hex 1 (for armor and shield prof plus that single target extra prof dmg is nice too) main combo is SG + Ray of frost and either mold earth, grease, earth tremor to lock them down to 5ft movement and thus unable to move on sq grid play. now for an enemy with more than 30ft it gets more tricky but most creatures seems workable. then I could still do things with my turn since it would mostly open it up for me. Thoughts? Any other improvements?
I was going to suggest flame blade, but attacking with it costs your Action. No defenses, if that's the case.
Spiritual weapon isnt available if you're a clockwork sorc that's using the orzhov background to get spirit guardians like Rodney's build is.
I would just want all 9 levels of sorc so I can get Wall of Force from clockwork, but that's just where my head is at with casters. Hobgoblin with moderately armored and warcaster, using Tasha's to change the stats to +2 cha, +1 con. You would still have a 16-17 cha, but that's okay because spirit guardians does a lot of work even with a medium DC.
Sorry, I missed the part where this was a Ravnica game.
I'm going to see myself out. I can't stand this kind of monkeying around.
So Zot, another question: as I'm lookin at it it seems that grease is a self contained "combo" of sorts. Am I right in thinking that if I grease an enemy and they fail dex save thus going prone, based on grid style play, would they be "speed locked" (best term i could think of) since half speed to stand and half again on difficult terrain. Thus they cant move out of grease?
The range of the spell is 60 ft. but the actual square is only 10 ft. Even if a creature is small, having only 25 ft. of movement, they'll only need to spend 12.5 ft. getting up. This means that they will still have 12.5 ft. of movement, 6.25 in the difficult terrain. If you cast the thing directly on them, they can escape. What you can do is force them to escape in a certain direction so that they don't have to make another save by leaving most of the area of effect in the opposite direction of where you want them to go.
The range of the spell is 60 ft. but the actual square is only 10 ft. Even if a creature is small, having only 25 ft. of movement, they'll only need to spend 12.5 ft. getting up. This means that they will still have 12.5 ft. of movement, 6.25 in the difficult terrain. If you cast the thing directly on them, they can escape. What you can do is force them to escape in a certain direction so that they don't have to make another save by leaving most of the area of effect in the opposite direction of where you want them to go.
I think I may be missing grid mechanics then, wouldn't the 10ft sg hit minimum 9 sqs on board and make them make at least 1 more save, if they fall prone from the first one I mean?
You can also do like a cleric and simply dodge. The Dodge action is quite effective when you have spirit guardians up as a blender. What you really need to figure out is what your bonus action is going to be used for every round.
Honestly, I would heavily consider dropping the hexblade for a cleaner progression since blade ward/dodge could easily be your primary actions. Making that build an EB spammer doesn't seem necessary. Getting spirit guardians at level 5 is a big deal.
I never even looked at ward thank you both! I also tried re working it last night since were playing @lvl 9 going clock 8 (and continuing on with just it) and hex 1 (for armor and shield prof plus that single target extra prof dmg is nice too) main combo is SG + Ray of frost and either mold earth, grease, earth tremor to lock them down to 5ft movement and thus unable to move on sq grid play. now for an enemy with more than 30ft it gets more tricky but most creatures seems workable. then I could still do things with my turn since it would mostly open it up for me. Thoughts? Any other improvements?
I was going to suggest flame blade, but attacking with it costs your Action. No defenses, if that's the case.
Spiritual weapon isnt available if you're a clockwork sorc that's using the orzhov background to get spirit guardians like Rodney's build is.
I would just want all 9 levels of sorc so I can get Wall of Force from clockwork, but that's just where my head is at with casters. Hobgoblin with moderately armored and warcaster, using Tasha's to change the stats to +2 cha, +1 con. You would still have a 16-17 cha, but that's okay because spirit guardians does a lot of work even with a medium DC.
I never even realized they have light armor prof. Looks like dwarves and custom lineage have some competition now XD. Thanks for the info! Also used wall of force last night in a game to lock out a young dragon. That spell is life saving. Granted I was using it on a homebrew class but still.
I think I may be missing grid mechanics then, wouldn't the 10ft sg hit minimum 9 sqs on board and make them make at least 1 more save, if they fall prone from the first one I mean?
The PHB doesn't exactly say anything about square area of effect so let's assume it's a cube that was flattened down.
Cube
You select a cube's point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect. The cube's size is expressed as the length of each side.
A cube's point of origin is not included in the cube's area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.
If the spell created a cube, it would have a side length of 10 feet. Passing through would take 20 ft. from one side to the other. Our square is the same, except it doesn't have any height dimension. In other words, if you cast the spell in a way that a target is right in the centre of the square, the target will be 5 ft. from each side of the square.
For clarification: The 10 ft. is the length of the side, not the distance from the point of origin. It does raise the question of whether the point of origin can be in the middle of the square. Technically, if it really is a flattened cube, the area of the square is the top side of the cube so it should be allowed. If your DM rules that it is not so, the point of origin will have to be at the side of the square.
So Zot, another question: as I'm lookin at it it seems that grease is a self contained "combo" of sorts. Am I right in thinking that if I grease an enemy and they fail dex save thus going prone, based on grid style play, would they be "speed locked" (best term i could think of) since half speed to stand and half again on difficult terrain. Thus they cant move out of grease?
Difficult terrain makes movement cost twice as many feet. It does not halve your movement speed as your interpretation is implying
Consider your average speed of 30 feet with Grease placed on the grid solidly over a four square pattern. (none of the origin point at the center of a square stuff that Firecat is talking about, I will get to that after)
1. Standing up: This takes half movement speed so 15 feet. The enemy is left with 15 feet of movement.
2. Moving out of grease: No matter which square of Grease the enemy occupies, they are next to a clear square. Moving out of the difficult terrain counts as movement in difficult terrain, so to move to the next square takes 10 feet of movement. From there, the enemy has 5 feet of movement left and is now out of the difficult terrain so they can use it as normal.
Firecat brings up some good stuff talking about origin points. Your DM may allow you to make a creature the center of the 10x10, as if they were at the cross section of four squares. I'm honestly not sure what that means for distance to the edge and would be for the DM to determine. Personally I wouldn't allow the spell to force more movement than the example I gave above because that would lead to an enemy being automatically stuck in the grease for a second round and I think that's too powerful for a first level spell without concentration.
And I love Hobgoblins for squishy casters. They make great wizards and now with Tasha's sorcerers can join in on the fun. Actually getting shield proficiency without a dip is really nice. And Saving Face is a strong racial ability.
So Zot, another question: as I'm lookin at it it seems that grease is a self contained "combo" of sorts. Am I right in thinking that if I grease an enemy and they fail dex save thus going prone, based on grid style play, would they be "speed locked" (best term i could think of) since half speed to stand and half again on difficult terrain. Thus they cant move out of grease?
Difficult terrain makes movement cost twice as many feet. It does not halve your movement speed as your interpretation is implying
Consider your average speed of 30 feet with Grease placed on the grid solidly over a four square pattern. (none of the origin point at the center of a square stuff that Firecat is talking about, I will get to that after)
1. Standing up: This takes half movement speed so 15 feet. The enemy is left with 15 feet of movement.
2. Moving out of grease: No matter which square of Grease the enemy occupies, they are next to a clear square. Moving out of the difficult terrain counts as movement in difficult terrain, so to move to the next square takes 10 feet of movement. From there, the enemy has 5 feet of movement left and is now out of the difficult terrain so they can use it as normal.
Firecat brings up some good stuff talking about origin points. Your DM may allow you to make a creature the center of the 10x10, as if they were at the cross section of four squares. I'm honestly not sure what that means for distance to the edge and would be for the DM to determine. Personally I wouldn't allow the spell to force more movement than the example I gave above because that would lead to an enemy being automatically stuck in the grease for a second round and I think that's too powerful for a first level spell without concentration.
And I love Hobgoblins for squishy casters. They make great wizards and now with Tasha's sorcerers can join in on the fun. Actually getting shield proficiency without a dip is really nice. And Saving Face is a strong racial ability.
Fair enough, thank you both for bringing this up. I've always seen (and ran) it as though they were at an origin point for the cross section of 4 squares. Thats probably why I was under the thought that it could potentially lock them down using Ray and SG
Firecat brings up some good stuff talking about origin points. Your DM may allow you to make a creature the center of the 10x10, as if they were at the cross section of four squares. I'm honestly not sure what that means for distance to the edge and would be for the DM to determine. Personally I wouldn't allow the spell to force more movement than the example I gave above because that would lead to an enemy being automatically stuck in the grease for a second round and I think that's too powerful for a first level spell without concentration.
Even if you're in the centre, it's still 5 ft. away from the edge. Maybe if you're walking diagonally it'll be sqrt(50) which is a bit more than 7 but that's not important. The point of origin thing is only important for sight, in case you know your enemy is behind the corner or something. Otherwise, it's not that important.
What you might be referring to is a previous post in which I meant you can create the area so that the creature has, say, 8 ft. of the area in front of them and 2 ft. behind them. That means that if they choose to move forward, they won't be able to leave the square and will have to make another save. If they go backwards, they left the area of effect but now they're further away. If you're in a corridor, using it like that means they have to choose whether they make another save or go back and get stuck behind. In an open field, they'd still waste their turn unable to reach you.
Standing at the intersection of four squares seems different than standing in the middle of a five foot square. Moving from the middle of one five foot sqare to the middle of the next five foot square is five feet of movement. But moving from an intersection point to the middle of the same five foot square would seem like more movement to me. The weirdness of using grids and then going off grid. If you're not using a grid, then none of this matters. Just place the 10x10 how you want and work out with the DM how much space is on any side.
Edit: Also Rodney, you're definitely free to rule on Grease however you want. I missed that post. But it is making the spell more powerful, so being cognizant of that is important. As a total Greasemonkey I'd be rolling up a wizard in a heartbeat with you as my DM lol. Freakin love that spell.
Standing at the intersection of four squares seems different than standing in the middle of a five foot square. Moving from the middle of one five foot sqare to the middle of the next five foot square is five feet of movement. But moving from an intersection point to the middle of the same five foot square would seem like more movement to me. The weirdness of using grids and then going off grid. If you're not using a grid, then none of this matters. Just place the 10x10 how you want and work out with the DM how much space is on any side.
Edit: Also Rodney, you're definitely free to rule on Grease however you want. I missed that post. But it is making the spell more powerful, so being cognizant of that is important. As a total Greasemonkey I'd be rolling up a wizard in a heartbeat with you as my DM lol. Freakin love that spell.
XD hey fair haha You seem like a fun player. I like to reward fun out of the box thinking.
I have to really say thank you both, I have been thinking of the spell in the sense that the 5ft radius hits 9 squares and not paying enough attn forgot that 10ft sq is very different than a 10ft radius with center sq point of origin. So that is where my big mistake has been. Thankfully we havent had a situation like that happen that I remember, but as you said it's important to be cognizant of what each things does and its natural limitations.
How about you exit the conversation without some backhanded negativity. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Then let me rephrase.
If it's setting appropriate then to incorporate a Ravnica guild background then, by all means, go to town. I can not be a fan of something and still be okay with someone else doing it. I was merely excusing myself from the conversation.
You could have just left, but you insist on re-hashing this without apologizing Jounichi.
"merely excusing yourself" would have been not posting anymore.
Typing "I'm going to see myself out, I can't stand this kind of monkeying around." is negative without any provocation. Who gains anything by knowing you can't stand what you percieve as monkeying around? No one. It's a selfish and rude statement that passes judgment and denegrates what people are talking about.
Your insistence on bringing up setting appropriateness, and "I missed the part where this was a Ravnica campaign" in the same space you're calling this conversation "monkeying around" implies there's some kind of gaming going on that rubs you the wrong way. You must take me for a fool. I certainly don't expect you to own up to this, but your intentions are right there tucked thinly in between the lines.
Do everyone involved a favor and simply don't respond next time a thread has taken a turn you don't want to participate in.
Royal (Can I call you royal? I'm all about nicknames and I decided I like the Royal Tenenbaums thing for you), no problem and I'm happy to have helped. I actually think your ruling makes for a cool upcasting idea for Grease. More Grease! More Grease!
And just because grease is more powerful with your wording doesn't mean its biggest weaknesses aren't still there. My last DM learned to challenge my love for Grease with spider people and other random shit that could easily evade the terrain. One time we fought this big creepy crawly centipede-like thing and it just rolled around in the grease like it was home. I was terrified.
Absolutely, Bill Freakin Murray ftw (granted he's all I remember of that movie)! Upcasting Grease....I like this idea. Gives it a big reason to keep it active all the way on leveling up. Its kinda funny, I'm running mock battles against a Death Slaad vs just me to see if I can handle it and realized a glaringly problematic issue regarding other casters. They are happy just staying put and smacking ya from far away. Thankfully we have 2 melee'rs in the party so they can handle them. I'd also be close enough to pop them and say no, but they seem to carry the most problem, or as you said the ones with climbing or even worse flying. I know eventually we will be going to 20th level and at some point a Tarrasque will be battled (it will have a breath weapon too since the battle will be in the ocean and itll be kind of a Godzilla guardian thing for the BBEGs realm). So I'm trying to keep stuff like that in mind XD.
Oh man you're heading to some seriously epic shit. I've never played at those levels in 5e, sounds super fun. As for the tactical difficulties you're noticing with melee stuff like spirit guardians, and especially armor of agathys, that is par for the course. Melee combat will always struggle with good mobility and ranged capabilities. Building in a tractor beam with Eldritch Blast and invocations is a logical solution, but I think it will quickly prove unreliable against enemies with good mobility that are staying at long range. That's one reason why I like focusing on unlocking higher level spells and more spell slots. It allows you to have better backup plans (and more of them) that interact with shit in completely different ways.
If you're still considering ways to retool your sorcerer I think that Artificer would make for a very interesting level 1 dip. The thematic ties to Clockwork Soul are really nice, and mechanically I like what you get even though I advocated for no warlock dip. Extra cantrips and prepared ritual spells will help fill out utility. Medium armor, shields and con saves are all there, and the first level counts towards spellcasting progression so your slots won't miss a beat.
I would also highly recommend Fey-Touched for Misty Step and Gift of Alacrity on whatever build you use, planning to use the +1 charisma to round out a 17. More initiative is amazing on control casters and sorcerer really appreciates the extra spells known. Misty Step is an excellent addition too. It helps fill out your bonus action, gets you out of a jam, and helps you close the distance and get where you need to be against enemies at range.
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Sorry, I missed the part where this was a Ravnica game.
I'm going to see myself out. I can't stand this kind of monkeying around.
How about you exit the conversation without some backhanded negativity. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
So Zot, another question: as I'm lookin at it it seems that grease is a self contained "combo" of sorts. Am I right in thinking that if I grease an enemy and they fail dex save thus going prone, based on grid style play, would they be "speed locked" (best term i could think of) since half speed to stand and half again on difficult terrain. Thus they cant move out of grease?
The range of the spell is 60 ft. but the actual square is only 10 ft. Even if a creature is small, having only 25 ft. of movement, they'll only need to spend 12.5 ft. getting up. This means that they will still have 12.5 ft. of movement, 6.25 in the difficult terrain. If you cast the thing directly on them, they can escape. What you can do is force them to escape in a certain direction so that they don't have to make another save by leaving most of the area of effect in the opposite direction of where you want them to go.
Varielky
I think I may be missing grid mechanics then, wouldn't the 10ft sg hit minimum 9 sqs on board and make them make at least 1 more save, if they fall prone from the first one I mean?
I never even realized they have light armor prof. Looks like dwarves and custom lineage have some competition now XD. Thanks for the info! Also used wall of force last night in a game to lock out a young dragon. That spell is life saving. Granted I was using it on a homebrew class but still.
The PHB doesn't exactly say anything about square area of effect so let's assume it's a cube that was flattened down.
If the spell created a cube, it would have a side length of 10 feet. Passing through would take 20 ft. from one side to the other. Our square is the same, except it doesn't have any height dimension. In other words, if you cast the spell in a way that a target is right in the centre of the square, the target will be 5 ft. from each side of the square.
For clarification: The 10 ft. is the length of the side, not the distance from the point of origin. It does raise the question of whether the point of origin can be in the middle of the square. Technically, if it really is a flattened cube, the area of the square is the top side of the cube so it should be allowed. If your DM rules that it is not so, the point of origin will have to be at the side of the square.
I hope this answers your question.
Varielky
Difficult terrain makes movement cost twice as many feet. It does not halve your movement speed as your interpretation is implying
Consider your average speed of 30 feet with Grease placed on the grid solidly over a four square pattern. (none of the origin point at the center of a square stuff that Firecat is talking about, I will get to that after)
1. Standing up: This takes half movement speed so 15 feet. The enemy is left with 15 feet of movement.
2. Moving out of grease: No matter which square of Grease the enemy occupies, they are next to a clear square. Moving out of the difficult terrain counts as movement in difficult terrain, so to move to the next square takes 10 feet of movement. From there, the enemy has 5 feet of movement left and is now out of the difficult terrain so they can use it as normal.
Firecat brings up some good stuff talking about origin points. Your DM may allow you to make a creature the center of the 10x10, as if they were at the cross section of four squares. I'm honestly not sure what that means for distance to the edge and would be for the DM to determine. Personally I wouldn't allow the spell to force more movement than the example I gave above because that would lead to an enemy being automatically stuck in the grease for a second round and I think that's too powerful for a first level spell without concentration.
And I love Hobgoblins for squishy casters. They make great wizards and now with Tasha's sorcerers can join in on the fun. Actually getting shield proficiency without a dip is really nice. And Saving Face is a strong racial ability.
Fair enough, thank you both for bringing this up. I've always seen (and ran) it as though they were at an origin point for the cross section of 4 squares. Thats probably why I was under the thought that it could potentially lock them down using Ray and SG
Even if you're in the centre, it's still 5 ft. away from the edge. Maybe if you're walking diagonally it'll be sqrt(50) which is a bit more than 7 but that's not important. The point of origin thing is only important for sight, in case you know your enemy is behind the corner or something. Otherwise, it's not that important.
What you might be referring to is a previous post in which I meant you can create the area so that the creature has, say, 8 ft. of the area in front of them and 2 ft. behind them. That means that if they choose to move forward, they won't be able to leave the square and will have to make another save. If they go backwards, they left the area of effect but now they're further away. If you're in a corridor, using it like that means they have to choose whether they make another save or go back and get stuck behind. In an open field, they'd still waste their turn unable to reach you.
Varielky
Standing at the intersection of four squares seems different than standing in the middle of a five foot square. Moving from the middle of one five foot sqare to the middle of the next five foot square is five feet of movement. But moving from an intersection point to the middle of the same five foot square would seem like more movement to me. The weirdness of using grids and then going off grid. If you're not using a grid, then none of this matters. Just place the 10x10 how you want and work out with the DM how much space is on any side.
Edit: Also Rodney, you're definitely free to rule on Grease however you want. I missed that post. But it is making the spell more powerful, so being cognizant of that is important. As a total Greasemonkey I'd be rolling up a wizard in a heartbeat with you as my DM lol. Freakin love that spell.
XD hey fair haha You seem like a fun player. I like to reward fun out of the box thinking.
I have to really say thank you both, I have been thinking of the spell in the sense that the 5ft radius hits 9 squares and not paying enough attn forgot that 10ft sq is very different than a 10ft radius with center sq point of origin. So that is where my big mistake has been. Thankfully we havent had a situation like that happen that I remember, but as you said it's important to be cognizant of what each things does and its natural limitations.
Then let me rephrase.
If it's setting appropriate then to incorporate a Ravnica guild background then, by all means, go to town. I can not be a fan of something and still be okay with someone else doing it. I was merely excusing myself from the conversation.
You could have just left, but you insist on re-hashing this without apologizing Jounichi.
"merely excusing yourself" would have been not posting anymore.
Typing "I'm going to see myself out, I can't stand this kind of monkeying around." is negative without any provocation. Who gains anything by knowing you can't stand what you percieve as monkeying around? No one. It's a selfish and rude statement that passes judgment and denegrates what people are talking about.
Your insistence on bringing up setting appropriateness, and "I missed the part where this was a Ravnica campaign" in the same space you're calling this conversation "monkeying around" implies there's some kind of gaming going on that rubs you the wrong way. You must take me for a fool. I certainly don't expect you to own up to this, but your intentions are right there tucked thinly in between the lines.
Do everyone involved a favor and simply don't respond next time a thread has taken a turn you don't want to participate in.
Royal (Can I call you royal? I'm all about nicknames and I decided I like the Royal Tenenbaums thing for you), no problem and I'm happy to have helped. I actually think your ruling makes for a cool upcasting idea for Grease. More Grease! More Grease!
And just because grease is more powerful with your wording doesn't mean its biggest weaknesses aren't still there. My last DM learned to challenge my love for Grease with spider people and other random shit that could easily evade the terrain. One time we fought this big creepy crawly centipede-like thing and it just rolled around in the grease like it was home. I was terrified.
Absolutely, Bill Freakin Murray ftw (granted he's all I remember of that movie)! Upcasting Grease....I like this idea. Gives it a big reason to keep it active all the way on leveling up. Its kinda funny, I'm running mock battles against a Death Slaad vs just me to see if I can handle it and realized a glaringly problematic issue regarding other casters. They are happy just staying put and smacking ya from far away. Thankfully we have 2 melee'rs in the party so they can handle them. I'd also be close enough to pop them and say no, but they seem to carry the most problem, or as you said the ones with climbing or even worse flying. I know eventually we will be going to 20th level and at some point a Tarrasque will be battled (it will have a breath weapon too since the battle will be in the ocean and itll be kind of a Godzilla guardian thing for the BBEGs realm). So I'm trying to keep stuff like that in mind XD.
Oh man you're heading to some seriously epic shit. I've never played at those levels in 5e, sounds super fun. As for the tactical difficulties you're noticing with melee stuff like spirit guardians, and especially armor of agathys, that is par for the course. Melee combat will always struggle with good mobility and ranged capabilities. Building in a tractor beam with Eldritch Blast and invocations is a logical solution, but I think it will quickly prove unreliable against enemies with good mobility that are staying at long range. That's one reason why I like focusing on unlocking higher level spells and more spell slots. It allows you to have better backup plans (and more of them) that interact with shit in completely different ways.
If you're still considering ways to retool your sorcerer I think that Artificer would make for a very interesting level 1 dip. The thematic ties to Clockwork Soul are really nice, and mechanically I like what you get even though I advocated for no warlock dip. Extra cantrips and prepared ritual spells will help fill out utility. Medium armor, shields and con saves are all there, and the first level counts towards spellcasting progression so your slots won't miss a beat.
I would also highly recommend Fey-Touched for Misty Step and Gift of Alacrity on whatever build you use, planning to use the +1 charisma to round out a 17. More initiative is amazing on control casters and sorcerer really appreciates the extra spells known. Misty Step is an excellent addition too. It helps fill out your bonus action, gets you out of a jam, and helps you close the distance and get where you need to be against enemies at range.