So, my character is a Warlock with a Celestial patron.
I just turned 6th level and got the "Radiant Soul" feature and dang... its just so... weak.
Radiant Soul
"Starting at 6th level, your link to the Celestial allows you to serve as a conduit for radiant energy. You have resistance to radiant damage, and when you cast a spell that deals radiant or fire damage, you can add your Charisma modifier to one radiant or fire damage roll of that spell against one of its targets."
So, I get resistance to radiant damage (haven't been hit with that once.. usually a good guy damage type) but no fire resistance (which might actually be useful).
Then I get +4 (cha mod) damage to radiant/fire...once...to one target per spell. So any spell that hits multiple targets..****y one gets +4 damage. Spell does 6d8? still only +4...to one target.
I have 2 spell slots (if I'm using a cantrip, I'm using Eldritch Blast (force damage) most of the time). So that adds up to a total of 8 extra damage per short rest max.
And that's assuming the spells I use do radiant or fire damage. Being I'm a Celestial Warlock, the majority of my spells are not damage dealers in the first place.
So resistance to damage that player characters rarely get hit with and an extremely limited bump to spells that even when maximized don't add up to much.
So, ya... am I missing something?
(it feels like they were trying to protect against some OP use of the feature, but in doing so, made it nearly useless for everyone)
I agree with you, it’s not very powerful. I only used it when I was attacking opponents who had partial cover so I was using Sacred Flame instead of Eldritch Blast.
I agree with you, it’s not very powerful. I only used it when I was attacking opponents who had partial cover so I was using Sacred Flame instead of Eldritch Blast.
ya, pretty much. at least it gives Sacred Flame a little more oomph. wish I could cast it twice like EB.
So what exactly do you want for nothing? What did you sacrifice to get any extra power? If you want resistance to fire damage, play a Tiefling. They make good Warlocks, and there is nothing to say they can't have a Celestial as a Patron.
If you want more damage, ask your DM about it. Work something out. Get Eldritch Blast changed to Radiant damage. It's a trivial change, one that even I might consider, and makes sense in those circumstances. Your opponents would probably be rather surprised by Radiant damage from someone with reddish skin, horns, and a tail.
Celestials getting Sacred Flame + Radiant Soul as part of the subclass is meant to provide an alternative basic combat routine for the Celestial so that it can spend its cantrip and invocation slot on other things. It isn't meant to be better than Eldritch Blast spam. Getting a boost to some of your other spells and a resistance is just icing. Is it groundbreakingly powerful? Not even close. But the value is there.
I guarantee if you were playing a Celestial Tomelock focused heavily on support and utility you would feel differently about the 0 investment basic routine that allows you to spend your cantrips and invocations on non-blaster things.
Yes it is underwhelming. I have probably looked at 10 guides to the celestial and they all rank it below average. I wouldn't go so far as the DungeonDudes who say it is a trap and lower the entire grade of the subclass because of it though.
Radiant resistance is on brand even if not super impactful. Fire resistance would be on brand and maybe if all it gave you was resistance to those two it would be OK (the tieflings wouldn't like it, but who thinks of the poor Aasimar for whom the radiant resistance is wasted on).
The biggest problem is the rider that it only affect one of the spell's targets. Its at best 5 extra damage and when you get it more likely 3 or 4. It should just be for all targets, which would also simplify the bookkeeping for the DM. It would also make cantrips like word of radiance, or AoE radiant damage spells like Sickening Radiance more attractive. Even as written you only get the bonus damage to Flaming Sphere on the first turn. If you got it every turn that would make that spell more attractive.
And no the feature is not free. All of the Warlock subclasses have a level 6 feature. When discussing one of them being underpowered its a comparison against the others.
It's disappointing, but I would assume the main purpose isn't to so much make Sacred Flame competitive with Eldritch Blast, but let's say someone is within 5 feet and moving would proc an opportunity attack. Eldritch Blast would be cast at disadvantage, where Sacred Flame would be subject to a Dex save. You'll lose the +5 for a potential second, third or fourth ray, but you get the initial +5 and probably a much better chance to hit.
The radiant damage...as stated is rare so it's not as powerful as say The Fiend's level 10 ability that let's you choose the damage type.
And no the feature is not free. All of the Warlock subclasses have a level 6 feature. When discussing one of them being underpowered its a comparison against the others.
Did anyone say it was?
Edit: Answer - Yes they did. Sorry Elfdope, I'm blind.
Celestials getting Sacred Flame + Radiant Soul as part of the subclass is meant to provide an alternative basic combat routine for the Celestial so that it can spend its cantrip and invocation slot on other things. It isn't meant to be better than Eldritch Blast spam. Getting a boost to some of your other spells and a resistance is just icing. Is it groundbreakingly powerful? Not even close. But the value is there.
I guarantee if you were playing a Celestial Tomelock focused heavily on support and utility you would feel differently about the 0 investment basic routine that allows you to spend your cantrips and invocations on non-blaster things.
I am playing a Celestial Tomelock focused heavily on support and utility. I do not feel differently.
It wouldn't be 0 investment, being the cost is the feature itself, in lieu of a better 6th level feature.
Celestials getting Sacred Flame + Radiant Soul as part of the subclass is meant to provide an alternative basic combat routine for the Celestial so that it can spend its cantrip and invocation slot on other things. It isn't meant to be better than Eldritch Blast spam. Getting a boost to some of your other spells and a resistance is just icing. Is it groundbreakingly powerful? Not even close. But the value is there.
I guarantee if you were playing a Celestial Tomelock focused heavily on support and utility you would feel differently about the 0 investment basic routine that allows you to spend your cantrips and invocations on non-blaster things.
I am playing a Celestial Tomelock focused heavily on support and utility. I do not feel differently.
You still spent a cantrip on Eldritch Blast. Did you spend an invocation on Agonizing Blast? These are investments that are not based on utility or support. Of course you will feel worse about Radiant Soul if you have invested in Eldritch Blast as your main combat action. The point still stands, you have not invested in support and utility as heavily as you could have. The choices you have made instead make sacred flame + radiant soul look bad.
It wouldn't be 0 investment, being the cost is the feature itself, in lieu of a better 6th level feature.
This logic doesn't really track for me. You can't have the 6th level feature without the rest of the subclass. The whole subclass is the cost. At that point you need to start judging the rest of the features as well and that's a rabbit hole that isn't worth going down. You get what you get and you've made at least one choice that makes part of the Celestial kit mostly redundant. Like I said, Radiant Soul is definitely not lighting the world on fire in power level. But it allows a celestial warlock to invest 0 cantrips or invocations into combat capabilities and still have something halfway decent. That has value considering cantrips and invocations are hot commodities for a warlock.
Without going to the dark side (Fiend Patron), you could multi class into a Light cleric. The Light Domain gives you some fire based spells and you can still fight for the good guys. Eldritch Blast does not care if you multiclass it levels the same in 5e.
Radiant soul is pretty underwhelming, not being very useful in AoE situation. Best use for it I have seen was on a warlock that didn't want to use Eldritch Blast/Agonizing Blast, so instead used Firebolt/Radiant Soul as his bread-and-butter cantrip.
When playing a celestial warlock I made use of it in the following way: 1. Fought a mind controlled priest who dropped spirit guardians on the party. Just went in and mopped them up. 2. Mostly used EB+AB, but when cover or high AC was involved made use of sacred flame. 3. Tacked it on to spells like flaming sphere (a really underrated spell as a warlock). It doesn't matter that it only hits one enemy. Its still a little damage.
Its disappointing that it doesn't do more and that it can't keep up with EB+AB, but the level 1 and level 10 features are really great. Celestial Resilience is SOO nice. In particular if you have someone in the party with a pet (or yourself with chain pact).
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So, my character is a Warlock with a Celestial patron.
I just turned 6th level and got the "Radiant Soul" feature and dang... its just so... weak.
Radiant Soul
"Starting at 6th level, your link to the Celestial allows you to serve as a conduit for radiant energy. You have resistance to radiant damage, and when you cast a spell that deals radiant or fire damage, you can add your Charisma modifier to one radiant or fire damage roll of that spell against one of its targets."
So, I get resistance to radiant damage (haven't been hit with that once.. usually a good guy damage type) but no fire resistance (which might actually be useful).
Then I get +4 (cha mod) damage to radiant/fire...once...to one target per spell. So any spell that hits multiple targets..****y one gets +4 damage. Spell does 6d8? still only +4...to one target.
I have 2 spell slots (if I'm using a cantrip, I'm using Eldritch Blast (force damage) most of the time). So that adds up to a total of 8 extra damage per short rest max.
And that's assuming the spells I use do radiant or fire damage. Being I'm a Celestial Warlock, the majority of my spells are not damage dealers in the first place.
So resistance to damage that player characters rarely get hit with and an extremely limited bump to spells that even when maximized don't add up to much.
So, ya... am I missing something?
(it feels like they were trying to protect against some OP use of the feature, but in doing so, made it nearly useless for everyone)
Hitting multiple targets, such as with a fireball, uses only one damage roll.
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yup. so 8d6... but tack on an extra +4 damage to only one of the targets (+2 if they saved).
we're saved.
No.
Say you hit five creatures with a fireball. If you roll a 27 for damage, then all of those five creatures take a 31 total damage.
Come participate in the Competition of the Finest Brews, Edition XXVIII?
My homebrew stuff:
Spells, Monsters, Magic Items, Feats, Subclasses.
I am an Archfey, but nobody seems to notice.
Extended Signature
I agree with you, it’s not very powerful. I only used it when I was attacking opponents who had partial cover so I was using Sacred Flame instead of Eldritch Blast.
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"you can add your Charisma modifier to one radiant or fire damage roll of that spell against one of its targets"
ya, pretty much. at least it gives Sacred Flame a little more oomph. wish I could cast it twice like EB.
So what exactly do you want for nothing? What did you sacrifice to get any extra power? If you want resistance to fire damage, play a Tiefling. They make good Warlocks, and there is nothing to say they can't have a Celestial as a Patron.
If you want more damage, ask your DM about it. Work something out. Get Eldritch Blast changed to Radiant damage. It's a trivial change, one that even I might consider, and makes sense in those circumstances. Your opponents would probably be rather surprised by Radiant damage from someone with reddish skin, horns, and a tail.
<Insert clever signature here>
Yes.
Celestials getting Sacred Flame + Radiant Soul as part of the subclass is meant to provide an alternative basic combat routine for the Celestial so that it can spend its cantrip and invocation slot on other things. It isn't meant to be better than Eldritch Blast spam. Getting a boost to some of your other spells and a resistance is just icing. Is it groundbreakingly powerful? Not even close. But the value is there.
I guarantee if you were playing a Celestial Tomelock focused heavily on support and utility you would feel differently about the 0 investment basic routine that allows you to spend your cantrips and invocations on non-blaster things.
Yes it is underwhelming. I have probably looked at 10 guides to the celestial and they all rank it below average. I wouldn't go so far as the DungeonDudes who say it is a trap and lower the entire grade of the subclass because of it though.
Radiant resistance is on brand even if not super impactful. Fire resistance would be on brand and maybe if all it gave you was resistance to those two it would be OK (the tieflings wouldn't like it, but who thinks of the poor Aasimar for whom the radiant resistance is wasted on).
The biggest problem is the rider that it only affect one of the spell's targets. Its at best 5 extra damage and when you get it more likely 3 or 4. It should just be for all targets, which would also simplify the bookkeeping for the DM. It would also make cantrips like word of radiance, or AoE radiant damage spells like Sickening Radiance more attractive. Even as written you only get the bonus damage to Flaming Sphere on the first turn. If you got it every turn that would make that spell more attractive.
And no the feature is not free. All of the Warlock subclasses have a level 6 feature. When discussing one of them being underpowered its a comparison against the others.
It's disappointing, but I would assume the main purpose isn't to so much make Sacred Flame competitive with Eldritch Blast, but let's say someone is within 5 feet and moving would proc an opportunity attack. Eldritch Blast would be cast at disadvantage, where Sacred Flame would be subject to a Dex save. You'll lose the +5 for a potential second, third or fourth ray, but you get the initial +5 and probably a much better chance to hit.
The radiant damage...as stated is rare so it's not as powerful as say The Fiend's level 10 ability that let's you choose the damage type.
Did anyone say it was?
Edit: Answer - Yes they did. Sorry Elfdope, I'm blind.
I am playing a Celestial Tomelock focused heavily on support and utility. I do not feel differently.
It wouldn't be 0 investment, being the cost is the feature itself, in lieu of a better 6th level feature.
You still spent a cantrip on Eldritch Blast. Did you spend an invocation on Agonizing Blast? These are investments that are not based on utility or support. Of course you will feel worse about Radiant Soul if you have invested in Eldritch Blast as your main combat action. The point still stands, you have not invested in support and utility as heavily as you could have. The choices you have made instead make sacred flame + radiant soul look bad.
This logic doesn't really track for me. You can't have the 6th level feature without the rest of the subclass. The whole subclass is the cost. At that point you need to start judging the rest of the features as well and that's a rabbit hole that isn't worth going down. You get what you get and you've made at least one choice that makes part of the Celestial kit mostly redundant. Like I said, Radiant Soul is definitely not lighting the world on fire in power level. But it allows a celestial warlock to invest 0 cantrips or invocations into combat capabilities and still have something halfway decent. That has value considering cantrips and invocations are hot commodities for a warlock.
Without going to the dark side (Fiend Patron), you could multi class into a Light cleric. The Light Domain gives you some fire based spells and you can still fight for the good guys. Eldritch Blast does not care if you multiclass it levels the same in 5e.
Radiant soul is pretty underwhelming, not being very useful in AoE situation. Best use for it I have seen was on a warlock that didn't want to use Eldritch Blast/Agonizing Blast, so instead used Firebolt/Radiant Soul as his bread-and-butter cantrip.
When playing a celestial warlock I made use of it in the following way:
1. Fought a mind controlled priest who dropped spirit guardians on the party. Just went in and mopped them up.
2. Mostly used EB+AB, but when cover or high AC was involved made use of sacred flame.
3. Tacked it on to spells like flaming sphere (a really underrated spell as a warlock). It doesn't matter that it only hits one enemy. Its still a little damage.
Its disappointing that it doesn't do more and that it can't keep up with EB+AB, but the level 1 and level 10 features are really great. Celestial Resilience is SOO nice. In particular if you have someone in the party with a pet (or yourself with chain pact).