Lend me your thoughts. Warlock was tricked into a Pact with Fierna. The Pact requires the sacrifice of a hundred souls over a period of time. Said Warlock is not evil, but has been managing it and wants to change patrons (possibly to a good god). My thoughts are that the change will have some repercussion from the Devil Fierna, and possibly a lapse of powers until a new patron is taken on. Another possibility is to take on a new celestial for that subclass, and then multiclass. Allows the keeping of Warlock powers, albeit a little different, and the possibility to multi-class. thoughts?
I'll preface this by saying this s quite a long response and will not be the most popular view of warlock pacts but here we go.......
I view Warlock pacts much like a contract of employment.
You go through an interview process and if successful are offered a contract. If you accept it you are expected to act in a certain way, perform certain duties, achieve certain targets and act in a way that is beneficial for your employer. If you fail to do so then your employer will initially have a word with you about bucking your ideas up and make sure you are aware of what is expected of you, you may lose certain benefits (such as monetary bonuses) and if you keep failing to do what you have been employed to do you will be fired.
So thinking of the warlock pact in those terms your patron would be fully within their rights to revoke or restrict the power they have given to you if you routinely break the pact you agreed to. They may send one of their other warlocks to you with a view of giving you a stern talking to and remind you of your role and duties or anything else they deem apropriate.
If you have a Player of a Warlock who uses the "my patron is not aware of me/my pact" route then they need to be able to justify this in some way. The reason I would say this is the definition of Pact is "an agreement between one or more parties" so if you are not aware of the other party in the pact you cannot agree to it. Players who adopt this route need to be aware that just because the patron is not aware of them does not mean they cannot become aware of them. To use another work contract analogy....
You walk into an office block, you talk you way passed security and onto the office floor for a company. You even manage to introduce yourself to the HR department and talk them into adding you onto the payroll and talking one of the line managers into believing you have just been hired. You get a monthly wage, you get a raft of extra's such as monetary bonus, stock options, private healthcare, gym memberships etc. Some time passes and you get asked into a meeting where the managers tell you they have found out you never had an interview, were never offered a job and have commited fraud by acting in the way you did. Now there is a very small chance they may reward your inititiative and let you continue to work for them but it is much more likely they will call the police and have you arressted and punished in some way. It is largely a case of when, not if, they find out what you have done.
In this way it is certainly withn the patrons ability to remove or revoke the power the warlock has "stolen" or otherwise punish the warlock by simply saying "Kudos for getting away with it for as long as you did but I never agreed to anything so I'll take back that power".
Using the above it would also be possible for patrons to trade warlocks with other patrons, maybe Asmodeus (a fiend patron) makes a deal with the Queen of Air and Darkness (a fey parton) and throws one of their warlocks in to sweeten the deal so the Warlock wakes up one day and suddenly finds their powers have changed. This could be a interesting jumping off point for a new story arch as the warlock investigates whats happened.
In a similar way if a Warlock can prove their patron has failed to live up to their side of the pact they could potentially break off the pact with few consequences, think of it as talking your company to court or tribunal for some infraction.
A Warlock could switch patrons much in the same way you can resign from one company and go work for another but then you would need to decide what the rammifications of that would be and what the patrons motivations would be.
A Fiend patron is not going to extend powers to soemone who has stopped working for them and they may also have some clause in the pact that says the Warlock loses all rights to resign from or re-negotiate the terms of the pact until a certain time limit has lapsed, think of this like the WWE and the contract they have with their wrestlers, the wrestlers can request a release from their contract so they can leave and go work elsewhere but the WWE officials can say no and the wrestler has little to no recourse except to work until their contract expires or the WWE decide to fire/release/let them quit and as a side note if a wrestler is injured or otherwise requires time off for medical reasons the WWE can extend their contract by the amount of time the wrestler had off.
A Celestial patron may want the Warlock to undergo some pennance to make up for their previous deeds and expect them to then behave in a manner that matches the Celstials ideals, for instance, a Unicorn may require the Warlock to find and return a sacred artifact or escort and protect a particular person to a specific glade to show the Warlock has the correct mindset.
If you are still reading at this point I apologise for waffling on.....
So for your Warlock, if Fierna is requestng 100 souls then you need to decide if she was savvy enough to put some clauses into the contract (she is described as a master manipulator so I would assume she has such clauses). The clause could be that if the warlock walks away from the pact then their soul is forfieted so in death they cannot be returned to life unless Fierna allows it. This would likely be the easiest and cleanest way to end the pact. If you have some idea of how many souls the Warlock had already given to her then you can say they buy some amount of power that remains within the Warlock so they can retain some or all of their abilities but they can no longer advance as a Warlock without another patron taking them on. This power might also have the side effect of still siphoning off energy from people and creatures the Warlock kills so souls still get sent back to Fierna.
You could expect any new patron to be sceptical about the warlock and request much higher stakes given that the Warlocks soul is already tainted not only by the previous contract but by the souls they have already reaped. A Celestial patron with a redemptionist philosphy would likely be wortkable but also a multiclass to Oath of Redemption Paladin could be done as well.
You'll need to have a chat with the warlock player and ask them what they want to do going forward, do they want to remain singleclassed warlock, do they want to multiclass, would they enjoy a story arch (that likely runs in the background) where their chracter can try to orge a new deal with a patron or deity where they have to prove they have turned over a new leaf etc etc.
Again, if you read all that, I apologise for waffling.......
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Tasha’s has some suggestions for how to handle things like changing subclasses. Basically, the player and DM agree, and then it’s up to the DM how much of a challenge they want it to be. In this case, if I were DM, I’d allow it. Considering the character was tricked into the pact, I could definitely see a celestial being interested in helping the character redeem himself. And with such a drastic switch of patrons, I do think a shift of subclass would be appropriate. It’s just up to you how you want to work out the timing, just do it, or wait until a level up, or whatever works for the story. I’d be hesitant to strip him of powers and leave him with nothing, at least not for long, or the character will probably seem kind of un-fun to play with basically limited armor, weapon and some skill proficiencies. But I may be wrong, some players may enjoy that challenge. As far as the old patron, I imagine they’d be pretty upset. Depending on how high a level they are/how much effort the patron invested, they may be different degrees of angry. Certainly they’ll send something to go try and kill the warlock, it’s just a question of how hard they’ll try. Are they really angry, or is it just some perfunctory effort so they don’t look weak? That’s going to be up to you, and how well it works in the overall story.
Warlock powers, once gained from a Patron, are permanent according to RAW. However, there may be repercussions other than loss of powers for abandoning one Patron and making a Pact with another, such as a massively annoyed and very powerful former Patron. This is the inherent balancing factor built into the class.
Warlock powers, once gained from a Patron, are permanent according to RAW .
Unless, of course, you use the RAW that says you can change them :)
In Tasha’s:
With your DM’s approval, you can change your subclass when you would normally gain a new subclass feature. If you decide to make this change, choose another subclass that belongs to your class and replace all your old subclass features with the features of the new subclass that are for your new level and lower.
Considering “patron” and “subclass” are practically synonymous in the case of warlocks, there is RAW that says you can change them.
If you’re talking about multiclassing out of warlock (in this case), then I agree, yes, the character keeps the warlock abilities and has a really mad patron is the default. But, of course, the DM is free to make exceptions.
If you are only looking for story Role Playing ideas than it’s easy. Break a devil contract and you lose your soul. Fierna is known as a master manipulator and devils want souls. When that character dies permanently then their soul goes to the 9 hells and becomes a devil. Want to go back on your contract with her, then fine, your soul belongs to her now. This won’t mechanically change anything in the game. But is a great primer for more story and role playing for the character. Now they get to look for ways to get their soul back (if they even want it). Their new patron could even help them find ways to regain possession of their soul
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Check out my Disabled & Dragons Youtube Channel for 5e Monster and Player Tactics. Helping the Disabled Community and Players and DM’s (both new and experienced) get into D&D. Plus there is a talking Dragon named Quill.
Lend me your thoughts. Warlock was tricked into a Pact with Fierna. The Pact requires the sacrifice of a hundred souls over a period of time. Said Warlock is not evil, but has been managing it and wants to change patrons (possibly to a good god). My thoughts are that the change will have some repercussion from the Devil Fierna, and possibly a lapse of powers until a new patron is taken on. Another possibility is to take on a new celestial for that subclass, and then multiclass. Allows the keeping of Warlock powers, albeit a little different, and the possibility to multi-class. thoughts?
I'll preface this by saying this s quite a long response and will not be the most popular view of warlock pacts but here we go.......
I view Warlock pacts much like a contract of employment.
You go through an interview process and if successful are offered a contract. If you accept it you are expected to act in a certain way, perform certain duties, achieve certain targets and act in a way that is beneficial for your employer. If you fail to do so then your employer will initially have a word with you about bucking your ideas up and make sure you are aware of what is expected of you, you may lose certain benefits (such as monetary bonuses) and if you keep failing to do what you have been employed to do you will be fired.
So thinking of the warlock pact in those terms your patron would be fully within their rights to revoke or restrict the power they have given to you if you routinely break the pact you agreed to. They may send one of their other warlocks to you with a view of giving you a stern talking to and remind you of your role and duties or anything else they deem apropriate.
If you have a Player of a Warlock who uses the "my patron is not aware of me/my pact" route then they need to be able to justify this in some way. The reason I would say this is the definition of Pact is "an agreement between one or more parties" so if you are not aware of the other party in the pact you cannot agree to it. Players who adopt this route need to be aware that just because the patron is not aware of them does not mean they cannot become aware of them. To use another work contract analogy....
You walk into an office block, you talk you way passed security and onto the office floor for a company. You even manage to introduce yourself to the HR department and talk them into adding you onto the payroll and talking one of the line managers into believing you have just been hired. You get a monthly wage, you get a raft of extra's such as monetary bonus, stock options, private healthcare, gym memberships etc. Some time passes and you get asked into a meeting where the managers tell you they have found out you never had an interview, were never offered a job and have commited fraud by acting in the way you did. Now there is a very small chance they may reward your inititiative and let you continue to work for them but it is much more likely they will call the police and have you arressted and punished in some way. It is largely a case of when, not if, they find out what you have done.
In this way it is certainly withn the patrons ability to remove or revoke the power the warlock has "stolen" or otherwise punish the warlock by simply saying "Kudos for getting away with it for as long as you did but I never agreed to anything so I'll take back that power".
Using the above it would also be possible for patrons to trade warlocks with other patrons, maybe Asmodeus (a fiend patron) makes a deal with the Queen of Air and Darkness (a fey parton) and throws one of their warlocks in to sweeten the deal so the Warlock wakes up one day and suddenly finds their powers have changed. This could be a interesting jumping off point for a new story arch as the warlock investigates whats happened.
In a similar way if a Warlock can prove their patron has failed to live up to their side of the pact they could potentially break off the pact with few consequences, think of it as talking your company to court or tribunal for some infraction.
A Warlock could switch patrons much in the same way you can resign from one company and go work for another but then you would need to decide what the rammifications of that would be and what the patrons motivations would be.
A Fiend patron is not going to extend powers to soemone who has stopped working for them and they may also have some clause in the pact that says the Warlock loses all rights to resign from or re-negotiate the terms of the pact until a certain time limit has lapsed, think of this like the WWE and the contract they have with their wrestlers, the wrestlers can request a release from their contract so they can leave and go work elsewhere but the WWE officials can say no and the wrestler has little to no recourse except to work until their contract expires or the WWE decide to fire/release/let them quit and as a side note if a wrestler is injured or otherwise requires time off for medical reasons the WWE can extend their contract by the amount of time the wrestler had off.
A Celestial patron may want the Warlock to undergo some pennance to make up for their previous deeds and expect them to then behave in a manner that matches the Celstials ideals, for instance, a Unicorn may require the Warlock to find and return a sacred artifact or escort and protect a particular person to a specific glade to show the Warlock has the correct mindset.
If you are still reading at this point I apologise for waffling on.....
So for your Warlock, if Fierna is requestng 100 souls then you need to decide if she was savvy enough to put some clauses into the contract (she is described as a master manipulator so I would assume she has such clauses). The clause could be that if the warlock walks away from the pact then their soul is forfieted so in death they cannot be returned to life unless Fierna allows it. This would likely be the easiest and cleanest way to end the pact. If you have some idea of how many souls the Warlock had already given to her then you can say they buy some amount of power that remains within the Warlock so they can retain some or all of their abilities but they can no longer advance as a Warlock without another patron taking them on. This power might also have the side effect of still siphoning off energy from people and creatures the Warlock kills so souls still get sent back to Fierna.
You could expect any new patron to be sceptical about the warlock and request much higher stakes given that the Warlocks soul is already tainted not only by the previous contract but by the souls they have already reaped. A Celestial patron with a redemptionist philosphy would likely be wortkable but also a multiclass to Oath of Redemption Paladin could be done as well.
You'll need to have a chat with the warlock player and ask them what they want to do going forward, do they want to remain singleclassed warlock, do they want to multiclass, would they enjoy a story arch (that likely runs in the background) where their chracter can try to orge a new deal with a patron or deity where they have to prove they have turned over a new leaf etc etc.
Again, if you read all that, I apologise for waffling.......
Tasha’s has some suggestions for how to handle things like changing subclasses. Basically, the player and DM agree, and then it’s up to the DM how much of a challenge they want it to be.
In this case, if I were DM, I’d allow it. Considering the character was tricked into the pact, I could definitely see a celestial being interested in helping the character redeem himself. And with such a drastic switch of patrons, I do think a shift of subclass would be appropriate. It’s just up to you how you want to work out the timing, just do it, or wait until a level up, or whatever works for the story.
I’d be hesitant to strip him of powers and leave him with nothing, at least not for long, or the character will probably seem kind of un-fun to play with basically limited armor, weapon and some skill proficiencies. But I may be wrong, some players may enjoy that challenge.
As far as the old patron, I imagine they’d be pretty upset. Depending on how high a level they are/how much effort the patron invested, they may be different degrees of angry. Certainly they’ll send something to go try and kill the warlock, it’s just a question of how hard they’ll try. Are they really angry, or is it just some perfunctory effort so they don’t look weak? That’s going to be up to you, and how well it works in the overall story.
Warlock powers, once gained from a Patron, are permanent according to RAW. However, there may be repercussions other than loss of powers for abandoning one Patron and making a Pact with another, such as a massively annoyed and very powerful former Patron. This is the inherent balancing factor built into the class.
Behind every successful Warlock, there's an angry mob.
Unless, of course, you use the RAW that says you can change them :)
In Tasha’s:
With your DM’s approval, you can change your subclass when you would normally gain a new subclass feature. If you decide to make this change, choose another subclass that belongs to your class and replace all your old subclass features with the features of the new subclass that are for your new level and lower.
Considering “patron” and “subclass” are practically synonymous in the case of warlocks, there is RAW that says you can change them.
If you’re talking about multiclassing out of warlock (in this case), then I agree, yes, the character keeps the warlock abilities and has a really mad patron is the default. But, of course, the DM is free to make exceptions.
If you are only looking for story Role Playing ideas than it’s easy. Break a devil contract and you lose your soul. Fierna is known as a master manipulator and devils want souls. When that character dies permanently then their soul goes to the 9 hells and becomes a devil. Want to go back on your contract with her, then fine, your soul belongs to her now. This won’t mechanically change anything in the game. But is a great primer for more story and role playing for the character. Now they get to look for ways to get their soul back (if they even want it). Their new patron could even help them find ways to regain possession of their soul
Check out my Disabled & Dragons Youtube Channel for 5e Monster and Player Tactics. Helping the Disabled Community and Players and DM’s (both new and experienced) get into D&D. Plus there is a talking Dragon named Quill.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPPmyTI0tZ6nM-bzY0IG3ww
Nice. Has some merit.....
Thanks, I did read it all. No apologies needed.