(edit: one fun multi-class option for a caster warlock is to take true strike instead of EB and then go Rogue to get sneak attack, expertise and my favorite subclass is thief utilizing magic wands, scrolls and other magic items the warlock will want as a bonus action along side the normal stuff the warlock does).
Even better is multiclassing with paladin, bard, and even fighter, as you get extra attack, a lot of attack and damage roll modifiers, and amazing critfishing.
Extra attack only works with the attack action, which you aren't using in the scenario I suggested because you didn't go pact of the blade and you want to use your charisma to attack. Those are great multi-classes for blade locks but my suggestion was for caster lock.
Why not go pact of the blade in this scenario? It lets you eldritch smite.
Extra attack is from valor bard and lets you cast true strike.
You need 13 levels in rogue for the use magic device feature: quite the caster lock.
The 2024 fast hands lets you use the magic action when utilizing a magic item as a bonus action and as a multi class warlock you can use things like wands as you are a caster.
And if fiend lock and lets say it was a wand of fireballs you could drop 2 fireballs in one round.
(edit: one fun multi-class option for a caster warlock is to take true strike instead of EB and then go Rogue to get sneak attack, expertise and my favorite subclass is thief utilizing magic wands, scrolls and other magic items the warlock will want as a bonus action along side the normal stuff the warlock does).
Even better is multiclassing with paladin, bard, and even fighter, as you get extra attack, a lot of attack and damage roll modifiers, and amazing critfishing.
Extra attack only works with the attack action, which you aren't using in the scenario I suggested because you didn't go pact of the blade and you want to use your charisma to attack. Those are great multi-classes for blade locks but my suggestion was for caster lock.
Why not go pact of the blade in this scenario? It lets you eldritch smite.
Extra attack is from valor bard and lets you cast true strike.
You need 13 levels in rogue for the use magic device feature: quite the caster lock.
The 2024 fast hands lets you use the magic action when utilizing a magic item as a bonus action and as a multi class warlock you can use things like wands as you are a caster.
(edit: one fun multi-class option for a caster warlock is to take true strike instead of EB and then go Rogue to get sneak attack, expertise and my favorite subclass is thief utilizing magic wands, scrolls and other magic items the warlock will want as a bonus action along side the normal stuff the warlock does).
Even better is multiclassing with paladin, bard, and even fighter, as you get extra attack, a lot of attack and damage roll modifiers, and amazing critfishing.
Extra attack only works with the attack action, which you aren't using in the scenario I suggested because you didn't go pact of the blade and you want to use your charisma to attack. Those are great multi-classes for blade locks but my suggestion was for caster lock.
Why not go pact of the blade in this scenario? It lets you eldritch smite.
Extra attack is from valor bard and lets you cast true strike.
You need 13 levels in rogue for the use magic device feature: quite the caster lock.
The 2024 fast hands lets you use the magic action when utilizing a magic item as a bonus action and as a multi class warlock you can use things like wands as you are a caster.
My bad.
I presume you see where I was coming from. I was making a caster lock, and I figured the expertise added to the already fantastic lock utility by having expertise in multiple skills + ritual spells and at higher levels wands, scrolls and other magic items I feel are much more common making that new level 3 feature really fun as an idea. I could even see going 16 lock/4 rogue if you really like your warlock subclass capstone.
In the 2024, the pact of the blade is obviously good and a dip of pally, fighter, barbarian, or even ranger for medium armor + weapon mastery is going to be really solid for them. Its one of the noted great build options for a warlock I listed earlier. I don't feel you need to get extra attack from those option if you are pact of the blade because you have thirsting blade and at level 12 you have devouring blade giving that 3rd attack and extra attack does not stack unless it specifies otherwise (as with the level 11 fighter feature and the level 12 devouring blade warlock feature). I love the idea of double epic boon feats at level 19 and 20 but if we do this as a warlock we do sacrifice our level 9 spell options, which are still solid with true polymorph and foresight as some clear stand outs.
In experimenting with trying to keep a ranged damage caster warlock at most levels the fiend lock is one that stands out among the new options to me because hex does still stay relevant for single target damage, much like hunter's mark, up until around level 7. At level 1 the best damage option the warlock has is true strike because we don't have access to AB until level 2 combine with hex and it also gives your spells good damage over most encounters as well. The other option is just pact of the chain and let your chain familiar do its attacks instead of you, a quasit, imp and sphynx will all do amazing damage at this level. By level 5 and 6 you still want to be using hex if you want to do single target damage, but you want to be able to rest after casting it so you can have your full spread of non-concentration casts. This is where fiend helps out a lot with spells like fireball for AOE and most importantly for single target damage scorching ray upcast to 3rd level with hex going a 3rd level scorching ray will do 3d6 per hit and have 4 attacks going out which will do significantly more than just casting EB with AB and hex. EB+AB+Hex on a 60% hit rate and an 18 CHA at level 5 does 15.6 damage a scorching ray with hex going and same hit chance does 25.2 damage. In a 4 encounter day with just 1 rest the warlock can use 1 scorching ray per combat and still have 1 3rd level spell left over to recast hex if concentration is lost thanks to magical cunning or can still have another spell like counter spell, tongues, dispel magic or remove curse. With a familiar any turn not used setting up or moving hex can be used for bonus action attack with the imp with investment of the chain master every other turn (each attack made with advantage thanks to turning invis) the imp is still tough enough at levels 5 and 6 to be useful in combat, but will fall off later. Should still keep up with the sorc using their ability to get advantage on all their spell attacks. In a single 4 round combat you will do a total of 94.68 damage for an average of 23.67 per round, which does bring us into solid damage even keeping up with a 2 handed blade lock as long as we don't lose concentration on hex (this is all without considering crit damage and crit chance which would bring damage up a small amount). Now this is all white room damage calcs and while it is "ok damage" you are probably better off using control spells, but this shows that if one fight the party just needs you to bring round by round single target damage the fiend warlock can do so and keep up with the rest of the martials still, burning its slots of course, casters can't really keep up with melee martials without using slots anymore and this works with the fiend because of the access to non-concentration spells they get. (This was to compare to how a draconic sorcerer who built for damage or a evocation wizard who built for damage who can out do other warlock caster builds, but they can't beat the fiend from this experiment).
Around level 7 though I think using the familiar to attack is probably not a great idea, may get 1 attack off before it dies. But I want to test "White room", of course, if it would be better to try and keep doing the Hex + scorching ray thing with fiends or just go straight to the summoning spells + EB if we wanted to do single target damage, pretty sure it is the summon though. Sorry if this was off topic at all or just weird.
I think if the best thing about a warlock is that you can multiclass out of warlock... there is a problem with warlock.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I think if the best thing about a warlock is that you can multiclass out of warlock... there is a problem with warlock.
There are problems with warlock, but I also don't think anyone is saying multiclassing is the best thing about warlock. There are plenty of classes that consider multiclassing even wizard and sorcerer.
I think if the best thing about a warlock is that you can multiclass out of warlock... there is a problem with warlock.
I don't even agree with the idea of multiclassing out at level 11/13ish, while the spell options are not amazing, they are still 7th level spells etc and pretty powerful ending up with 9th level spells.(as a general rule, warlocks got kind of screwed with their spell lists). The point wasn't the best thing about them is multi-ing out but like many classes like say barbarian after a certain level while they gain things what they gain might not be better than what you get in the low levels of another class.
I do think pact of the blade has a odd design in that if you go that path you are more heavily influenced to dip into a martial than i think you should be, like it helping okay, that is fine, but its kind of night and day difference which i don't think is fine as it seems to be a pretty core design route to be pact of the blade given the number of invocations around it.
I'm not expecting errata, but I think armor of shadows should have a be baked in as a slightly higher level feature and it should function more like unarmored defense. It would swing the Ac by a mere 2, but that would make a difference, especially if you added a invocation that boosted it a bit, and give warlocks shield proficiency as a default. With that their Ac would be closer to what they need to wade into melee if they went pact of the blade, and make a dip feel less required. while its not actually required the difference is so huge in what you get from a single level dip it can feel that way to a lot of players.
I'm also not expecting errata. I do expect some additional invocations to help with your EB DPR in future content. Right now, I do like the look of a ranger dip for warlocks. Some slotless hunter's marks allow you to skip hex, and save a few spell slots. The armor's obviously a great pickup and some extra first level spell slots is always nice to have.
I could see a few simple invocation 'patches' to help. That old UA warlock invocation that gave medium armor would be nice, and since they decided to hand out our eldritch blast invocations to martials as weapon masteries, perhaps we can get some of their fighting styles as invocations. Archery fighting style, for example would pair nicely with eldritch blast to increase accuracy, and therefore DPR. Easy pick for an invocation. Maybe an invocation to allow you to get the DW fighting style and use your charisma mod for your offhand weapon.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
To be accurate and fair. When I was suggesting potentially multiclassing out at 11 or 15 to get 2 epic boon feats for a level 20 is something that any class can and may want to do if you are going to 20.
Do a lot of tweaking. Got one to level 14 and still going. Invocation combinations are the key. I prefer the -at will- ones. And it's just plain cool to have X-Ray vision. Let the others in party cast polymorph, bane, confusion, etc. The self-spells like freedom of movement are fine. The right feat(s) can also help. Be not afraid. Made a strange call and took medium armor feat, we had a suit of magic armor nobody wanted (Drow Scale Mail +3). Invisibility, fly, hold person spells are nasty. He is now typically the main target. If you can get Crown of Stars, take it (8d12 on a natural 20). Tome/book of ancient secrets can acquire a lot of spells. This one has 9 cantrips, 7 - 1st/1 - 2nd/1 - 3rd/ level ritual spells. Identify, Alarm, Tenser's floating disk, unseen servant, find familiar, purify food & drink, Comprehend Languages/ Gentle Repose/ Leomund's tiny hut.
I think crown of stars is a fun spell, not sure id take it. You are doing 4d12 as a bonus action for 7 rounds across 1 hour, roughly double damage from cantrip spam for 7 rounds. Its decent, its fun, and honestly they kind of did warlock dirty at that level, I mean seriously 4 mid spells without doing backwards compatibility stuff. If you are the only caster I'd go plane shift for utility. With a cleric/wizard in the party i'd let them handle it. Crown of stars is probably is the best mechanical choice for the level which isn't saying much, it just doesn't scream warlock spell to me.
Personally I'd consider power word pain for flavor, its like a curse of pain. Is it good, not really the hit point limit system kind of makes it hard to use like all the power words, but if you can boost your Dc to 21+ there are people you can put into a state of permanent pain, that's so dang warlock curse vibe I dig it. Though maybe they will fix it in 2024.
Finger of death, not great damage, but permanent zombie is pretty sweet, those can start to add up.
additional 2024 spells that would have fit the warlock fine though not all would be good choices.
Not using 2024 rules. Did not disclose Great Old One - Pact of the tome. Can create a thrall anytime. Telepathy is fun, even for a distraction to an enemy(its thinking what are those voices in my head).
For 2014, I wish create thrall felt like a thrall. They are just charmed, their is no, and they consider you a friend language even. So its permanent advantage on social skills and they can't attack you. The telepathy is fun, and was somewhat unique early 2014. But yeah, the 2nd 2014 game I ran we had a great old one warlock in the group and he used the telepathy a lot to harass enemies, people etc.
As the OP on this thread, the discussion has basically ended with the 2024 rule introduction--Warlocks are substantially cooler and now make sense to play now.
But if you're taking finger of death, double down with demiplane as 8th level arcanum. Get the zombies to sit in "the room". One day when you get upset at someone you open up "the room". Potential there I am sure ...
Here is why Warlock level 10 is pretty strong: Warlock can have a pact weapons so he can easily have great sword 2d6+CHA and it's damage type can be pschycic, necrotic, radiant or base so it's easy to ignore resistance Warlock can use his own version of divine smite casted on 5th spell slot (5d8), so he has strongest paladin feature but can cast it on higher level, and damage type is force. Creatures rarely have resistance to force Warlock has access to Fireball (Fiend) and can cast it on 5h spell slot (10d6), so he has pretty strong (some say strongest) AoE spell Warlock can cast 2 beams of Eldritch Blast which is 1d10+CHA sniping spell what basically covers a lot from what Hunter can do and again, it also deals force damage. Warlock restore all his spell slots on Short Rest so you can use all of them in a fight, short rest and use them again. Warlock has access to Eldritch Invocations what gives him access to wide range of perks, features and free spells. Warlock (Fiend) can gain temporary HP when he kills something or something is killed near to him, has 1d10 bonus to saving throws and get resistance to any damage type by his choice (and he can change it on long rests). Warlock HP dice is d8
Sooo... Warlock can hit pretty strong with sword (or even harder when you decide to use your smite if you roll 20 for example, you can always use it without and it's still pretty strong), warlock has his own version of mighty bow, warlock can cast some powerful spells. Due to damage type he can ignore a lot of resistances. Warlock is also pretty tanky.
In conclusion: He is not better Mage than Wizard but he is pretty solid Mage anyway He is not better fighter than Fighter but he is pretty strong melee as well He is not better smiter than paladin but he can use one pretty strong smite He is not tankiest of them all but you can easily achive 16AC and decent amount of health He is not best healer but he can generate temporary hit points He has no a lot of utility spells but he has some perks which comprehate that I would say it's pretty balanced class what in my opinion make this class pretty strong.
[edit] Oups, I forgot Eldritch Blast, and he has Eldritch Blast what makes him pretty strong hunter too.
The 2024 fast hands lets you use the magic action when utilizing a magic item as a bonus action and as a multi class warlock you can use things like wands as you are a caster.
And if fiend lock and lets say it was a wand of fireballs you could drop 2 fireballs in one round.
My bad.
I presume you see where I was coming from. I was making a caster lock, and I figured the expertise added to the already fantastic lock utility by having expertise in multiple skills + ritual spells and at higher levels wands, scrolls and other magic items I feel are much more common making that new level 3 feature really fun as an idea. I could even see going 16 lock/4 rogue if you really like your warlock subclass capstone.
In the 2024, the pact of the blade is obviously good and a dip of pally, fighter, barbarian, or even ranger for medium armor + weapon mastery is going to be really solid for them. Its one of the noted great build options for a warlock I listed earlier. I don't feel you need to get extra attack from those option if you are pact of the blade because you have thirsting blade and at level 12 you have devouring blade giving that 3rd attack and extra attack does not stack unless it specifies otherwise (as with the level 11 fighter feature and the level 12 devouring blade warlock feature). I love the idea of double epic boon feats at level 19 and 20 but if we do this as a warlock we do sacrifice our level 9 spell options, which are still solid with true polymorph and foresight as some clear stand outs.
In experimenting with trying to keep a ranged damage caster warlock at most levels the fiend lock is one that stands out among the new options to me because hex does still stay relevant for single target damage, much like hunter's mark, up until around level 7. At level 1 the best damage option the warlock has is true strike because we don't have access to AB until level 2 combine with hex and it also gives your spells good damage over most encounters as well. The other option is just pact of the chain and let your chain familiar do its attacks instead of you, a quasit, imp and sphynx will all do amazing damage at this level. By level 5 and 6 you still want to be using hex if you want to do single target damage, but you want to be able to rest after casting it so you can have your full spread of non-concentration casts. This is where fiend helps out a lot with spells like fireball for AOE and most importantly for single target damage scorching ray upcast to 3rd level with hex going a 3rd level scorching ray will do 3d6 per hit and have 4 attacks going out which will do significantly more than just casting EB with AB and hex. EB+AB+Hex on a 60% hit rate and an 18 CHA at level 5 does 15.6 damage a scorching ray with hex going and same hit chance does 25.2 damage. In a 4 encounter day with just 1 rest the warlock can use 1 scorching ray per combat and still have 1 3rd level spell left over to recast hex if concentration is lost thanks to magical cunning or can still have another spell like counter spell, tongues, dispel magic or remove curse. With a familiar any turn not used setting up or moving hex can be used for bonus action attack with the imp with investment of the chain master every other turn (each attack made with advantage thanks to turning invis) the imp is still tough enough at levels 5 and 6 to be useful in combat, but will fall off later. Should still keep up with the sorc using their ability to get advantage on all their spell attacks. In a single 4 round combat you will do a total of 94.68 damage for an average of 23.67 per round, which does bring us into solid damage even keeping up with a 2 handed blade lock as long as we don't lose concentration on hex (this is all without considering crit damage and crit chance which would bring damage up a small amount). Now this is all white room damage calcs and while it is "ok damage" you are probably better off using control spells, but this shows that if one fight the party just needs you to bring round by round single target damage the fiend warlock can do so and keep up with the rest of the martials still, burning its slots of course, casters can't really keep up with melee martials without using slots anymore and this works with the fiend because of the access to non-concentration spells they get. (This was to compare to how a draconic sorcerer who built for damage or a evocation wizard who built for damage who can out do other warlock caster builds, but they can't beat the fiend from this experiment).
Around level 7 though I think using the familiar to attack is probably not a great idea, may get 1 attack off before it dies. But I want to test "White room", of course, if it would be better to try and keep doing the Hex + scorching ray thing with fiends or just go straight to the summoning spells + EB if we wanted to do single target damage, pretty sure it is the summon though. Sorry if this was off topic at all or just weird.
I think if the best thing about a warlock is that you can multiclass out of warlock... there is a problem with warlock.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
There are problems with warlock, but I also don't think anyone is saying multiclassing is the best thing about warlock. There are plenty of classes that consider multiclassing even wizard and sorcerer.
I don't even agree with the idea of multiclassing out at level 11/13ish, while the spell options are not amazing, they are still 7th level spells etc and pretty powerful ending up with 9th level spells.(as a general rule, warlocks got kind of screwed with their spell lists). The point wasn't the best thing about them is multi-ing out but like many classes like say barbarian after a certain level while they gain things what they gain might not be better than what you get in the low levels of another class.
I do think pact of the blade has a odd design in that if you go that path you are more heavily influenced to dip into a martial than i think you should be, like it helping okay, that is fine, but its kind of night and day difference which i don't think is fine as it seems to be a pretty core design route to be pact of the blade given the number of invocations around it.
I'm not expecting errata, but I think armor of shadows should have a be baked in as a slightly higher level feature and it should function more like unarmored defense. It would swing the Ac by a mere 2, but that would make a difference, especially if you added a invocation that boosted it a bit, and give warlocks shield proficiency as a default. With that their Ac would be closer to what they need to wade into melee if they went pact of the blade, and make a dip feel less required. while its not actually required the difference is so huge in what you get from a single level dip it can feel that way to a lot of players.
I'm also not expecting errata. I do expect some additional invocations to help with your EB DPR in future content. Right now, I do like the look of a ranger dip for warlocks. Some slotless hunter's marks allow you to skip hex, and save a few spell slots. The armor's obviously a great pickup and some extra first level spell slots is always nice to have.
I could see a few simple invocation 'patches' to help. That old UA warlock invocation that gave medium armor would be nice, and since they decided to hand out our eldritch blast invocations to martials as weapon masteries, perhaps we can get some of their fighting styles as invocations. Archery fighting style, for example would pair nicely with eldritch blast to increase accuracy, and therefore DPR. Easy pick for an invocation. Maybe an invocation to allow you to get the DW fighting style and use your charisma mod for your offhand weapon.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
To be accurate and fair. When I was suggesting potentially multiclassing out at 11 or 15 to get 2 epic boon feats for a level 20 is something that any class can and may want to do if you are going to 20.
Do a lot of tweaking. Got one to level 14 and still going. Invocation combinations are the key. I prefer the -at will- ones. And it's just plain cool to have X-Ray vision. Let the others in party cast polymorph, bane, confusion, etc. The self-spells like freedom of movement are fine. The right feat(s) can also help. Be not afraid. Made a strange call and took medium armor feat, we had a suit of magic armor nobody wanted (Drow Scale Mail +3). Invisibility, fly, hold person spells are nasty. He is now typically the main target. If you can get Crown of Stars, take it (8d12 on a natural 20). Tome/book of ancient secrets can acquire a lot of spells. This one has 9 cantrips, 7 - 1st/1 - 2nd/1 - 3rd/ level ritual spells. Identify, Alarm, Tenser's floating disk, unseen servant, find familiar, purify food & drink, Comprehend Languages/ Gentle Repose/ Leomund's tiny hut.
Be different.
I think crown of stars is a fun spell, not sure id take it. You are doing 4d12 as a bonus action for 7 rounds across 1 hour, roughly double damage from cantrip spam for 7 rounds. Its decent, its fun, and honestly they kind of did warlock dirty at that level, I mean seriously 4 mid spells without doing backwards compatibility stuff. If you are the only caster I'd go plane shift for utility. With a cleric/wizard in the party i'd let them handle it. Crown of stars is probably is the best mechanical choice for the level which isn't saying much, it just doesn't scream warlock spell to me.
Personally I'd consider power word pain for flavor, its like a curse of pain. Is it good, not really the hit point limit system kind of makes it hard to use like all the power words, but if you can boost your Dc to 21+ there are people you can put into a state of permanent pain, that's so dang warlock curse vibe I dig it. Though maybe they will fix it in 2024.
Finger of death, not great damage, but permanent zombie is pretty sweet, those can start to add up.
additional 2024 spells that would have fit the warlock fine though not all would be good choices.
Mirage Arcane, project image, reverse gravity, symbol, teleport.
Prismatic spray maybe. Fits as well as crown of stars does.
Not using 2024 rules. Did not disclose Great Old One - Pact of the tome. Can create a thrall anytime. Telepathy is fun, even for a distraction to an enemy(its thinking what are those voices in my head).
For 2014, I wish create thrall felt like a thrall. They are just charmed, their is no, and they consider you a friend language even. So its permanent advantage on social skills and they can't attack you. The telepathy is fun, and was somewhat unique early 2014. But yeah, the 2nd 2014 game I ran we had a great old one warlock in the group and he used the telepathy a lot to harass enemies, people etc.
As the OP on this thread, the discussion has basically ended with the 2024 rule introduction--Warlocks are substantially cooler and now make sense to play now.
Yeah close the thread LOL
But if you're taking finger of death, double down with demiplane as 8th level arcanum. Get the zombies to sit in "the room". One day when you get upset at someone you open up "the room". Potential there I am sure ...
Life's hard - get a helmet!
Here is why Warlock level 10 is pretty strong:
Warlock can have a pact weapons so he can easily have great sword 2d6+CHA and it's damage type can be pschycic, necrotic, radiant or base so it's easy to ignore resistance
Warlock can use his own version of divine smite casted on 5th spell slot (5d8), so he has strongest paladin feature but can cast it on higher level, and damage type is force. Creatures rarely have resistance to force
Warlock has access to Fireball (Fiend) and can cast it on 5h spell slot (10d6), so he has pretty strong (some say strongest) AoE spell
Warlock can cast 2 beams of Eldritch Blast which is 1d10+CHA sniping spell what basically covers a lot from what Hunter can do and again, it also deals force damage.
Warlock restore all his spell slots on Short Rest so you can use all of them in a fight, short rest and use them again.
Warlock has access to Eldritch Invocations what gives him access to wide range of perks, features and free spells.
Warlock (Fiend) can gain temporary HP when he kills something or something is killed near to him, has 1d10 bonus to saving throws and get resistance to any damage type by his choice (and he can change it on long rests).
Warlock HP dice is d8
Sooo...
Warlock can hit pretty strong with sword (or even harder when you decide to use your smite if you roll 20 for example, you can always use it without and it's still pretty strong), warlock has his own version of mighty bow, warlock can cast some powerful spells. Due to damage type he can ignore a lot of resistances. Warlock is also pretty tanky.
In conclusion:
He is not better Mage than Wizard but he is pretty solid Mage anyway
He is not better fighter than Fighter but he is pretty strong melee as well
He is not better smiter than paladin but he can use one pretty strong smite
He is not tankiest of them all but you can easily achive 16AC and decent amount of health
He is not best healer but he can generate temporary hit points
He has no a lot of utility spells but he has some perks which comprehate that
I would say it's pretty balanced class what in my opinion make this class pretty strong.
[edit] Oups, I forgot Eldritch Blast, and he has Eldritch Blast what makes him pretty strong hunter too.