Knowing all your patron spells is great, but the general warlock spells that a warlock can choose form still is really sparse. And for all your pact magic spell levels there are at least 5 per spell level that a warlock does not have access to that fits them as good if not better than the class or classes that get it.
Why they have this big Wizards know all but warlocks who learn from strange beings well beyond our power and comprehension only can learn from a small list thing is just weird. Like seriously phantom steed, does anyone outside of historical precedent think summoning a phantom steed actually fits the wizard better than a warlock, heck even spells that don't directly fit the warlock like steel wind strike fit the warlock better than they fit the wizard because at least some level of a martial competent is built into the class. Blindness/deafness, bestow curse(and yes rest casting but really you are getting away with cursing he town and short resting?) heck the whole augury/divination line fit the warlock better than the wizard by a country mile, the list just goes on and on. Suggestion fits and they get it but they lost mass suggestion, make that make sense folks.
Am i glad we still have pact magic instead of a 1/2 caster, yes. Am I glad all arcane casters don't just have the arcane list yes. But I expected they would do the bare minimum and reassess spell lists for each class to some degree, not just slap a few of the super weak invocations into the spell list and call it a day.
looking at this some more they only have 6 spells at 4th level. Banishment, blight, charm monster, dimension door, hallucinatory terrain, summon aberration.
6 spells, that's all WOTC could figure fit out of hundreds.
Here is a quick list that fits warlocks on top of those 6.
Black Tentacles, Compulsion, confusion, death ward, fabricate(the short cut class doesn't get a short cut spell?), giant insect, greater invisibility, locate creature, polymorph, private sanctum and I am sure there is more, not that I ever use it but like secret chest seems very fitting.
there is a difference between wizards have the biggest list and we want to protect that and warlocks can only get 6 spells at level 4 in their spell list. These 11 plus the 6 would bring them to 17 spells(19 with their sub class), the wizard has 29 at 4th, I think that is a big enough gap especially since they will actually know far more of them over time. But at least give warlocks 1/2 of those WOTC. And the gaps get bigger with supplements. You guys need to errata these lists a bit,.
Given I think pact magic sucks and preferred the half caster version, I am not sure there's really any common ground. I do think that warlocks /should/ have a more constrained spell list than wizards and even sorcerers.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Given I think pact magic sucks and preferred the half caster version, I am not sure there's really any common ground. I do think that warlocks /should/ have a more constrained spell list than wizards and even sorcerers.
More constrained sure, but 6 at level 4 isn't more constrained its almost non extent. The sorcerer by the way should get more than they have. They really should be wizard minus like 5 per each spell level. I get something like lets say secret chest doesn't really feel like magic that is part of your nature. But i have no idea why all the summoning spells are off the list for example that does feel like something a sorcerer should be able to swing. .
Not sure the 1/2 magic part should change this. would you like a 1/2 magic version with only 6 spell choices at 4th level spells. I'd be irritated there as well. My point with the pact magic part was, it snot like I think the warlock is bust there are a lot of things I like about the 2024 version, just that they had some slip ups here and there.
Just to get this out of the way, I also hated the idea of warlocks as a half-caster. That would have killed the class for me.
That said, I think the reason behind this is a really, really dumb design decision they made for the 2014 PHB, that stopped making sense in the 2024 one but they still kept it. In 2014, the patron spells gave the warlock OPTIONS to choose from when they learned new spells. They didn't learn them automatically, they just had them as options that other warlocks didn't have. That meant that every single subclass spell had to be absent from the warlocks spell list. So that means warlocks get almost no fire spells, because those are for the fiend one. This design decision (I can't stress enough that it was really dumb) also limited future subclass spells. It wouldn't be about what fits for the subclass anymore, but what fits AND is missing from the main spell list. So what's the solution? Make a ridiculously small spell list to keep enough options for subclasses.
For another dumb reason, they decided that some of the most thematically fitting spells for the warlock should be locked behind invocations. So not only you must spend an invocation on something that should be available to you before any other class, but you can only cast it once per day AND you still use the spell slot. Like...why?
As ridiculous as that was, at least it made sense for the 2014 PHB. That was the design. Fast-forward to 2024, patron spells now work as domain spells. You get all of them for free. No need to restrict the spell list anymore, right? Many domain spells are also in the cleric's main spell list. The benefit is just having more spells prepared (and sometimes, not always, have spells from outside the main spell list). Well...WotC just thought "Nope, that was the spell list before, so that's how it stays." No reason at all, just...because.
Oh, but they did add spells to the warlock spell list, right?! Aside from the brand new ones, they got spells that should have been there the whole time, but were locked behind invocations. A step in the right direction, right? Like it should have been! Finally we get to learn Polymorph and Bestow Curse! Cursing people and turning them into toads is as warlock as it gets! WotC: "Yeah...you still don't get those."
Sorry for the long rant, but long story short, don't try to make sense out of the warlock's spell list because it doesn't make any sense. The designer team just screwed up, big time, twice. No other reason.
In the first playtest for the 2024 Warlock, when they first removed the invocation gated spells, they had planned to give Warlocks access to the whole Arcane spell list.
When they returned to class spell lists, they forgot to add those iconic Warlock spells to the general Warlock spells list.
In the first playtest for the 2024 Warlock, when they first removed the invocation gated spells, they had planned to give Warlocks access to the whole Arcane spell list.
When they returned to class spell lists, they forgot to add those iconic Warlock spells to the general Warlock spells list.
I get why lets say animate dead for example despite being thematically appropriate did not fit as a normal spell and needed to be invocation gated. It can be rest cast to stupid effect, though they really should have just fixed the spell so you can;t use it to create a undead army as it can get just as dumb in tier 3 from a necromancer as well. Leave undead armies to high level rituals..
But that is a rare exception, polymorph does not have those concerns as its a hour duration and turning someone into a toad fits. Heck I'd of not only given it to them but had a invocation that improved it, like giving them a ritual to make it permanent if someone is turned into a CR 0 enemy. Bestow curse while it can be rest casted with a 5th level spell slot is not something you can realistically rest cast. You can't really go around cast a spell, touch someone and curse them willy-nilly without getting the town guard on your butt quick, having a issue with that has the same merit as saying death is a permanent crowd control condition and you can just go through a town rest casting fireball.
Sookie_99 nailed the reason behind it I think. I had not thought about it before, but the 2014 design meant tons of appropriate spells were not on the list as they were saved for sub classes. In 2024 that no longer applies as you can automatically know something that is on your list with no problem. They needed another round or two of public play testing I think to point out these obvious flaws. Hopefully they have the desire to actually fix problems people see in the 2024 version and errata it.
* The magic of your patron ensures you always have certain spells ready; when you reach a Warlock level specified in the Subclass Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared. This seems NOT to work with the DnD Beyond Character Sheet. The prepared spell slots are still limited. ? Do I something wrong?
* Are the Subclass Spell List limitations for non-PHB 2024 subclasses - i.e. genie patron subclass - still in place? (= you still have to prepare spells from the subclass spell list individually and these prepared subclass spells count towards the prepared spell limitations of the Warlock class)
* The magic of your patron ensures you always have certain spells ready; when you reach a Warlock level specified in the Subclass Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared. This seems NOT to work with the DnD Beyond Character Sheet. The prepared spell slots are still limited. ? Do I something wrong?
* Are the Subclass Spell List limitations for non-PHB 2024 subclasses - i.e. genie patron subclass - still in place? (= you still have to prepare spells from the subclass spell list individually and these prepared subclass spells count towards the prepared spell limitations of the Warlock class)
For point 1, et them know on the bug thread. A lot of things are not wokring right.
2. They don't have much in the way of guidelines, but if using a old subclass I'd have them auto prepared. Would probably have to homebrew it to make it work on beyond.
I'm still confused about the slot level column on page 154. It looks to me like the max level of spells is level 5, but I know that's not the case.
For pact magic it caps at level 5.
A separate feature mystic arcanum gives them access to higher level spells.
As an aside the 20th level capstone is lame that could have been places at level 18 where nothing is happening, and the level 20 feature could have been your pact spells now upcast to level 6 or higher determined by balance. That way it would end at higher than 5,
What's worse is this is in the 2014 book too. I'm blind and it's a lesson I need to review the 2014 book going forward before I'm scratching my head about the 2024 book.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Knowing all your patron spells is great, but the general warlock spells that a warlock can choose form still is really sparse. And for all your pact magic spell levels there are at least 5 per spell level that a warlock does not have access to that fits them as good if not better than the class or classes that get it.
Why they have this big Wizards know all but warlocks who learn from strange beings well beyond our power and comprehension only can learn from a small list thing is just weird. Like seriously phantom steed, does anyone outside of historical precedent think summoning a phantom steed actually fits the wizard better than a warlock, heck even spells that don't directly fit the warlock like steel wind strike fit the warlock better than they fit the wizard because at least some level of a martial competent is built into the class. Blindness/deafness, bestow curse(and yes rest casting but really you are getting away with cursing he town and short resting?) heck the whole augury/divination line fit the warlock better than the wizard by a country mile, the list just goes on and on. Suggestion fits and they get it but they lost mass suggestion, make that make sense folks.
Am i glad we still have pact magic instead of a 1/2 caster, yes. Am I glad all arcane casters don't just have the arcane list yes. But I expected they would do the bare minimum and reassess spell lists for each class to some degree, not just slap a few of the super weak invocations into the spell list and call it a day.
Am I kind seeing this wrong?
looking at this some more they only have 6 spells at 4th level. Banishment, blight, charm monster, dimension door, hallucinatory terrain, summon aberration.
6 spells, that's all WOTC could figure fit out of hundreds.
Here is a quick list that fits warlocks on top of those 6.
Black Tentacles, Compulsion, confusion, death ward, fabricate(the short cut class doesn't get a short cut spell?), giant insect, greater invisibility, locate creature, polymorph, private sanctum and I am sure there is more, not that I ever use it but like secret chest seems very fitting.
there is a difference between wizards have the biggest list and we want to protect that and warlocks can only get 6 spells at level 4 in their spell list. These 11 plus the 6 would bring them to 17 spells(19 with their sub class), the wizard has 29 at 4th, I think that is a big enough gap especially since they will actually know far more of them over time. But at least give warlocks 1/2 of those WOTC. And the gaps get bigger with supplements. You guys need to errata these lists a bit,.
Given I think pact magic sucks and preferred the half caster version, I am not sure there's really any common ground. I do think that warlocks /should/ have a more constrained spell list than wizards and even sorcerers.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
More constrained sure, but 6 at level 4 isn't more constrained its almost non extent. The sorcerer by the way should get more than they have. They really should be wizard minus like 5 per each spell level. I get something like lets say secret chest doesn't really feel like magic that is part of your nature. But i have no idea why all the summoning spells are off the list for example that does feel like something a sorcerer should be able to swing. .
Not sure the 1/2 magic part should change this. would you like a 1/2 magic version with only 6 spell choices at 4th level spells. I'd be irritated there as well. My point with the pact magic part was, it snot like I think the warlock is bust there are a lot of things I like about the 2024 version, just that they had some slip ups here and there.
Just to get this out of the way, I also hated the idea of warlocks as a half-caster. That would have killed the class for me.
That said, I think the reason behind this is a really, really dumb design decision they made for the 2014 PHB, that stopped making sense in the 2024 one but they still kept it. In 2014, the patron spells gave the warlock OPTIONS to choose from when they learned new spells. They didn't learn them automatically, they just had them as options that other warlocks didn't have. That meant that every single subclass spell had to be absent from the warlocks spell list. So that means warlocks get almost no fire spells, because those are for the fiend one. This design decision (I can't stress enough that it was really dumb) also limited future subclass spells. It wouldn't be about what fits for the subclass anymore, but what fits AND is missing from the main spell list. So what's the solution? Make a ridiculously small spell list to keep enough options for subclasses.
For another dumb reason, they decided that some of the most thematically fitting spells for the warlock should be locked behind invocations. So not only you must spend an invocation on something that should be available to you before any other class, but you can only cast it once per day AND you still use the spell slot. Like...why?
As ridiculous as that was, at least it made sense for the 2014 PHB. That was the design. Fast-forward to 2024, patron spells now work as domain spells. You get all of them for free. No need to restrict the spell list anymore, right? Many domain spells are also in the cleric's main spell list. The benefit is just having more spells prepared (and sometimes, not always, have spells from outside the main spell list). Well...WotC just thought "Nope, that was the spell list before, so that's how it stays." No reason at all, just...because.
Oh, but they did add spells to the warlock spell list, right?! Aside from the brand new ones, they got spells that should have been there the whole time, but were locked behind invocations. A step in the right direction, right? Like it should have been! Finally we get to learn Polymorph and Bestow Curse! Cursing people and turning them into toads is as warlock as it gets! WotC: "Yeah...you still don't get those."
Sorry for the long rant, but long story short, don't try to make sense out of the warlock's spell list because it doesn't make any sense. The designer team just screwed up, big time, twice. No other reason.
In the first playtest for the 2024 Warlock, when they first removed the invocation gated spells, they had planned to give Warlocks access to the whole Arcane spell list.
When they returned to class spell lists, they forgot to add those iconic Warlock spells to the general Warlock spells list.
I get why lets say animate dead for example despite being thematically appropriate did not fit as a normal spell and needed to be invocation gated. It can be rest cast to stupid effect, though they really should have just fixed the spell so you can;t use it to create a undead army as it can get just as dumb in tier 3 from a necromancer as well. Leave undead armies to high level rituals..
But that is a rare exception, polymorph does not have those concerns as its a hour duration and turning someone into a toad fits. Heck I'd of not only given it to them but had a invocation that improved it, like giving them a ritual to make it permanent if someone is turned into a CR 0 enemy. Bestow curse while it can be rest casted with a 5th level spell slot is not something you can realistically rest cast. You can't really go around cast a spell, touch someone and curse them willy-nilly without getting the town guard on your butt quick, having a issue with that has the same merit as saying death is a permanent crowd control condition and you can just go through a town rest casting fireball.
Sookie_99 nailed the reason behind it I think. I had not thought about it before, but the 2014 design meant tons of appropriate spells were not on the list as they were saved for sub classes. In 2024 that no longer applies as you can automatically know something that is on your list with no problem. They needed another round or two of public play testing I think to point out these obvious flaws. Hopefully they have the desire to actually fix problems people see in the 2024 version and errata it.
Hmmmm ... just a question ... or two:
* The magic of your patron ensures you always have certain spells ready; when you reach a Warlock level specified in the Subclass Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared. This seems NOT to work with the DnD Beyond Character Sheet. The prepared spell slots are still limited.
? Do I something wrong?
* Are the Subclass Spell List limitations for non-PHB 2024 subclasses - i.e. genie patron subclass - still in place? (= you still have to prepare spells from the subclass spell list individually and these prepared subclass spells count towards the prepared spell limitations of the Warlock class)
For point 1, et them know on the bug thread. A lot of things are not wokring right.
2. They don't have much in the way of guidelines, but if using a old subclass I'd have them auto prepared. Would probably have to homebrew it to make it work on beyond.
Thanks for the advice. :)
I'm still confused about the slot level column on page 154. It looks to me like the max level of spells is level 5, but I know that's not the case.
For pact magic it caps at level 5.
A separate feature mystic arcanum gives them access to higher level spells.
As an aside the 20th level capstone is lame that could have been places at level 18 where nothing is happening, and the level 20 feature could have been your pact spells now upcast to level 6 or higher determined by balance. That way it would end at higher than 5,
thanks for explaining this, it's been bugging me.
What's worse is this is in the 2014 book too. I'm blind and it's a lesson I need to review the 2014 book going forward before I'm scratching my head about the 2024 book.