- No multi-classing. For testing purposes to see if the class can stand on its own.
If you want to have melee fighting warlock. That is a problem on the table. A dip or a start level 1 into Ftr/Barb gets you proficiency bonus on concentration roll. Access to medium armor and shield. As you will be next to opponents, that armor will be needed. Of course that does create different issues to solve.
Hex should work since it adds one dice to all attacks ala hunter’s mark.
If you get hit how well will you concentrate? If you are concentrating for hex, you might not be able to concentrate on something else?
True strike does not work since it will replace all attacks with it.
I don't think it works like that as it adds to your weapon damage which needed to hit and is probably better than hex as you don't have to concentrate.
...Eldritch Smite may be useful but i am not sure.
This statement means one of us doesn't understand it. If you are running a melee warlock, you aren't casting many spells and your hit is an additional 4D8 at 5th level.
I am testing out a PoftB Warlock for me and the GM. So we implemented some rules to see how it performs. The rules for character creation are.
- Only PHB 24. Meaning spells. Species, sub classes only from that book.
- No multi-classing. For testing purposes to see if the class can stand on its own.
I think it will work best as a flanker / hit & run damage dealer.
I don’t like MAD so i will dump STR and focus on CHA.
I will go with a Fiend patron for flavour.
I will start at lvl 5 so i do have Thirsting Blade.
Now how do i increase the damage with this build?
Hex should work since it adds one dice to all attacks ala hunter’s mark.
True strike does not work since it will replace all attacks with it.
Life Drinker and Eldritch Smite may be useful but i am not sure.
Point out if i am wrong about what i mentioned above and please give me any suggestions on what else i can do to increase damage.
Some things to think about:
Hex is good, but it is a Concentration spell, so invest in things that make you better at Concentration saves (e.g. Eldritch Mind, War Caster, Resilient).
You still need a Strength of 13 if you want to use a weapon with the Heavy property; Pact of the Blade doesn't remove that requirement.
Eldritch Smite is great if all you're doing is smashing things with a weapon, but for most of your life you only get two of those per short rest, and you're giving up your ability to cast any other leveled spells.
Lifedrinker, though, is something you almost certainly want when you get to that level; it's a lot like Hex (and stacks with it) but doesn't require Concentration.
True Strike probably isn't worth it if you have Thirsting Blade.
True strike does not work since it will replace all attacks with it.
I don't think it works like that as it adds to your weapon damage which needed to hit and is probably better than hex as you don't have to concentrate.
What they're getting at is that since casting True Strike is a Magic action and only involves a single attack, you are effectively discarding the benefits of Thirsting Blade (which lets you make a second attack when you take the Attack action). True Strike does a little more damage than a single normal attack, but I don't think it's enough to make it worth missing out on a whole other attack.
If the DM allows you to take Agonizing Blast with True Strike and double up your Charisma modifier on the damage, then it might be worth it. Whether that's supposed to be allowed is still a matter of some intense debate.
True strike does not work since it will replace all attacks with it.
I don't think it works like that as it adds to your weapon damage which needed to hit and is probably better than hex as you don't have to concentrate.
What they're getting at is that since casting True Strike is a Magic action and only involves a single attack, you are effectively discarding the benefits of Thirsting Blade (which lets you make a second attack when you take the Attack action). True Strike does a little more damage than a single normal attack, but I don't think it's enough to make it worth missing out on a whole other attack.
If the DM allows you to take Agonizing Blast with True Strike and double up your Charisma modifier on the damage, then it might be worth it. Whether that's supposed to be allowed is still a matter of some intense debate.
About thirsting blade/true strike, wouldn't you get the truestrike damage on your 1st hit and if you get a second hit, no truestrike?
True strike does not work since it will replace all attacks with it.
I don't think it works like that as it adds to your weapon damage which needed to hit and is probably better than hex as you don't have to concentrate.
What they're getting at is that since casting True Strike is a Magic action and only involves a single attack, you are effectively discarding the benefits of Thirsting Blade (which lets you make a second attack when you take the Attack action). True Strike does a little more damage than a single normal attack, but I don't think it's enough to make it worth missing out on a whole other attack.
If the DM allows you to take Agonizing Blast with True Strike and double up your Charisma modifier on the damage, then it might be worth it. Whether that's supposed to be allowed is still a matter of some intense debate.
About thirsting blade/true strike, wouldn't you get the truestrike damage on your 1st hit and if you get a second hit, no truestrike?
If you cast True Strike, there is no "second hit", because the spell only allows you to make a single attack.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the truestrike damage". True Strike is a spell you can use a Magic action to cast. As part of it, you make one weapon attack. It does deal extra damage at higher levels, if that's what you mean.
Thirsting Blade is a feature that lets you make two attacks when you take the Attack action. If you take the Attack action, you're not taking the Magic action, so you're not casting a spell (like True Strike).
So it comes down to two attacks doing "1d10"+Cha or one true strike attack doing 1d10+1d6, no matter your number of attacks.
Yes, that's the bottom line basically. If you're willing to invest a little in Strength (i.e., at least a 13) you can use Heavy weapons that have better damage dice, but I don't know if that's really worth it. It's a difference between average damage of 5.5 (with 1d10) vs. 6.5 (with 1d12) or 7 (with 2d6).
It should be noted that it's not super clear from the rules whether a conjured Pact of the Blade weapon can be used with True Strike at all. I'm inclined to think it can't, but there's been a lot of debate on it and no real consensus.
Her is what I have found, if you want to concentrate on a Pact of Blade, you want to start out as either a fighter or barbarian to give you access to medium armor and the use of a shield and weapon mastery for your Pact of blade weapon of choice.
The con is at 5th level you are a X 1/Warlock 4 so no 2nd attack with the melee weapon. If you acquire Eldritch blast (& Agonizing Blast), you will get 2 attacks, that will substitute as a ranged weapon AKA bow and no need to have a high dex.
The pro is you have a higher armor, better concentrate roll which can help with Hex et.al.
Yes i know about the dipping but that is not allowed in this experiment. We all know a dip will make it so much better blah, blah, blah, etc. The main purpose is to see if a PotB can stand on its own in melee and if you can play it as intended (Single class). If it can’t then you can just call PotB a Paladin/Fighter/whatever subclass and play them as EB machine guns instead.
I have the damage math and it tells me PotB can do that part up to standard at least. Now i will work on how to avoid getting hit without multi classing, armour and shield. But that is not a question here, it is something i will figure out eventually. Because there are plenty of ways to do that.
Now i will work on how to avoid getting hit without multi classing, armour and shield. But that is not a question here, it is something i will figure out eventually. Because there are plenty of ways to do that.
Please enlighten me as that is the #1 flaw that I can't determine how to over come it. Having +X light armor is not an option. And being with 5" to swing my 0ne handed weapon means I am going to be hit. Taking a feat for shield is not viable either.
Increasing AC and mirror Image so attackers get disadvantage.
Defensive Duelist (Save a Spell Slot)
Armor of Agathys Temp HP and a deterrent for being hit in melee
Will need level 6 Fey Warlock = Reaction Misty step when taking damage. Good for getting away from melee combat with monsters with multi-attack.
Increasing total AC is the issue.
Mirror image increases the chances of a miss, but it does not solve the AC issue. Light armor and no shield will only increase your armor score by so much. This is a good spell no matter what AC you have, to increase misses. But it does not solve the AC problem.
Armor of Agathys Temp HP
That is temp of 5 HP so equal to one hit. I could do some other stuff to get more temp HPs but that could be worse as I have one less invocation. It also does nothing to increase your AC.
Up through 10th level you get 2 spell slots, so if I am casting 1-2 spells to increase AC, then I am weakening my spell ability. Casting a spell to increase AC is a negative sum gain.
Defensive Duelist (Save a Spell Slot)
That is a feat and it only works "If you’re holding a Finesse weapon..." If I get a feat, for better AC, I lose out on increasing my CHA. CHA helps with both spells and damage.
What I have found is the best way to increase your AC is to start as a FTR. Starting as a FTR also increases your flexibility to use a multitude of melee types of weapon, allows for use of the mastery property of a weapon and adds Proficiency Bonus to your constitution saving throw.
How without feats (prevent CHA increase) nor spells do I increase my AC and/or use a shield? Adding a shield gives me that +2 minimum boost.
Can start 15 CHA (+2) / 15 DEX (Wait for Defensive Duelist) Con 13 (+1) (Can always get Tough from Invocation / Or Species) / Others to taste.
Will you be casting any/many to hit spells or spells with DC's? If not go DEX FOCUS
Pact blade lets you use CHA it does not force you to use CHA.
Pact Blade can use DEX and still use Invocations.
Thirsting Blade and Devouring Blade do not use CHA
Eldritch Smite does not use CHA
Life Drinker does not use CHA
Even Improved Pact weapon does not use CHA (does give +1 to attach and damage to non-magic weapons and can be used for shortbow, longbow, light crossbow, or heavy crossbow
I am testing out a PoftB Warlock for me and the GM. So we implemented some rules to see how it performs. The rules for character creation are.
- Only PHB 24. Meaning spells. Species, sub classes only from that book.
- No multi-classing. For testing purposes to see if the class can stand on its own.
I think it will work best as a flanker / hit & run damage dealer.
I don’t like MAD so i will dump STR and focus on CHA.
I will go with a Fiend patron for flavour.
I will start at lvl 5 so i do have Thirsting Blade.
Now how do i increase the damage with this build?
Hex should work since it adds one dice to all attacks ala hunter’s mark.
True strike does not work since it will replace all attacks with it.
Life Drinker and Eldritch Smite may be useful but i am not sure.
Point out if i am wrong about what i mentioned above and please give me any suggestions on what else i can do to increase damage.
If you want to have melee fighting warlock. That is a problem on the table. A dip or a start level 1 into Ftr/Barb gets you proficiency bonus on concentration roll. Access to medium armor and shield. As you will be next to opponents, that armor will be needed. Of course that does create different issues to solve.
If you get hit how well will you concentrate? If you are concentrating for hex, you might not be able to concentrate on something else?
I don't think it works like that as it adds to your weapon damage which needed to hit and is probably better than hex as you don't have to concentrate.
This statement means one of us doesn't understand it. If you are running a melee warlock, you aren't casting many spells and your hit is an additional 4D8 at 5th level.
Some things to think about:
pronouns: he/she/they
What they're getting at is that since casting True Strike is a Magic action and only involves a single attack, you are effectively discarding the benefits of Thirsting Blade (which lets you make a second attack when you take the Attack action). True Strike does a little more damage than a single normal attack, but I don't think it's enough to make it worth missing out on a whole other attack.
If the DM allows you to take Agonizing Blast with True Strike and double up your Charisma modifier on the damage, then it might be worth it. Whether that's supposed to be allowed is still a matter of some intense debate.
pronouns: he/she/they
Seems i am on the right track for this little experiment and have not missed anything obvious. Thx for your input, gold stars to both of you.
About thirsting blade/true strike, wouldn't you get the truestrike damage on your 1st hit and if you get a second hit, no truestrike?
If you cast True Strike, there is no "second hit", because the spell only allows you to make a single attack.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the truestrike damage". True Strike is a spell you can use a Magic action to cast. As part of it, you make one weapon attack. It does deal extra damage at higher levels, if that's what you mean.
Thirsting Blade is a feature that lets you make two attacks when you take the Attack action. If you take the Attack action, you're not taking the Magic action, so you're not casting a spell (like True Strike).
pronouns: he/she/they
So it comes down to two attacks doing "1d10"+Cha or one true strike attack doing 1d10+1d6, no matter your number of attacks.
Yes, that's the bottom line basically. If you're willing to invest a little in Strength (i.e., at least a 13) you can use Heavy weapons that have better damage dice, but I don't know if that's really worth it. It's a difference between average damage of 5.5 (with 1d10) vs. 6.5 (with 1d12) or 7 (with 2d6).
It should be noted that it's not super clear from the rules whether a conjured Pact of the Blade weapon can be used with True Strike at all. I'm inclined to think it can't, but there's been a lot of debate on it and no real consensus.
pronouns: he/she/they
Her is what I have found, if you want to concentrate on a Pact of Blade, you want to start out as either a fighter or barbarian to give you access to medium armor and the use of a shield and weapon mastery for your Pact of blade weapon of choice.
The con is at 5th level you are a X 1/Warlock 4 so no 2nd attack with the melee weapon. If you acquire Eldritch blast (& Agonizing Blast), you will get 2 attacks, that will substitute as a ranged weapon AKA bow and no need to have a high dex.
The pro is you have a higher armor, better concentrate roll which can help with Hex et.al.
Yes i know about the dipping but that is not allowed in this experiment. We all know a dip will make it so much better blah, blah, blah, etc. The main purpose is to see if a PotB can stand on its own in melee and if you can play it as intended (Single class). If it can’t then you can just call PotB a Paladin/Fighter/whatever subclass and play them as EB machine guns instead.
I have the damage math and it tells me PotB can do that part up to standard at least. Now i will work on how to avoid getting hit without multi classing, armour and shield. But that is not a question here, it is something i will figure out eventually. Because there are plenty of ways to do that.
Not a spell but Goliaths can add a die to damage. (Just popped into mind)
If you go Shdow touched I thin k you can add Wrathful Smite.
That’s a good point. Couldn’t do that in 2014.
pronouns: he/she/they
So True Strike Attack with Sword. Bonus action canst Wrathful Smite and free action add Eldritch Smite to attack.
Since you said CHA focused Add CHA for Pact Weapon add CHA for Agonizing blast on True Strike.
Wrathful Smite is a good idea, thx. Gold star to you. :)
Now i will work on how to avoid getting hit without multi classing, armour and shield. But that is not a question here, it is something i will figure out eventually. Because there are plenty of ways to do that.
Please enlighten me as that is the #1 flaw that I can't determine how to over come it. Having +X light armor is not an option. And being with 5" to swing my 0ne handed weapon means I am going to be hit. Taking a feat for shield is not viable either.
Increasing AC and mirror Image so attackers get disadvantage.
Defensive Duelist (Save a Spell Slot)
Armor of Agathys Temp HP and a deterrent for being hit in melee
Will need level 6 Fey Warlock = Reaction Misty step when taking damage. Good for getting away from melee combat with monsters with multi-attack.
Increasing total AC is the issue.
Mirror image increases the chances of a miss, but it does not solve the AC issue. Light armor and no shield will only increase your armor score by so much. This is a good spell no matter what AC you have, to increase misses. But it does not solve the AC problem.
That is temp of 5 HP so equal to one hit. I could do some other stuff to get more temp HPs but that could be worse as I have one less invocation. It also does nothing to increase your AC.
Up through 10th level you get 2 spell slots, so if I am casting 1-2 spells to increase AC, then I am weakening my spell ability. Casting a spell to increase AC is a negative sum gain.
That is a feat and it only works "If you’re holding a Finesse weapon..." If I get a feat, for better AC, I lose out on increasing my CHA. CHA helps with both spells and damage.
What I have found is the best way to increase your AC is to start as a FTR. Starting as a FTR also increases your flexibility to use a multitude of melee types of weapon, allows for use of the mastery property of a weapon and adds Proficiency Bonus to your constitution saving throw.
How without feats (prevent CHA increase) nor spells do I increase my AC and/or use a shield? Adding a shield gives me that +2 minimum boost.
You do need DEX to improve AC of Light armor.
Can start 15 CHA (+2) / 15 DEX (Wait for Defensive Duelist) Con 13 (+1) (Can always get Tough from Invocation / Or Species) / Others to taste.
Will you be casting any/many to hit spells or spells with DC's? If not go DEX FOCUS
Pact blade lets you use CHA it does not force you to use CHA.
Pact Blade can use DEX and still use Invocations.
Thirsting Blade and Devouring Blade do not use CHA
Eldritch Smite does not use CHA
Life Drinker does not use CHA
Even Improved Pact weapon does not use CHA (does give +1 to attach and damage to non-magic weapons and can be used for shortbow, longbow, light crossbow, or heavy crossbow