Thank you so much for walking me through all of this. It really helps me feel more confident in my choices. In general then, how would you suggest I manage my spells? Using charm person or something out of combat as needed is one thing, but for combat what would be the go if any before I jump to SoM?
Would I be Hexing people or summoning my demon? Stack SoM and Mirror Image?
I think the issue here is that you're trying to do way too much through the spells. Warlock is a bit tricky in that you really need to think about your spells carefully, since the opportunity cost is very high, but can refresh on a short rest. Its why Invocations exist as mostly At-Will spells, to make cheaper utility spells more accessible. This kind of gives you two choices on spell choice.... you can either have a spell combo you just do every combat, OR long tailed spells you can maintain for most (if not all) of the encounter. Also look into the circle cast rules. Prolong is really good feature, as it can extend many of your 1 minute spells to 1 hour with one other caster giving up a 1st level spell slot.
If you're doing the combo thing, start looking at magic items. At this level you should be good to have a rare magic magic item. So talk to your DM about enspelled weapons or enspelled armor and offload one of your most commonly used spells to that. Since you have 3-6 charges per day to work with, which one kind of depends on your strategy. If you're ok with using 2 pacts slots for a spell combo every combat, you can load the enspelled item with a contingency spell.... like shield. If you want to keep Pact slots more available, then put your main concentration spell in the enspelled item, and make it your primary source of that spell*.
*Just be mindful of the Spell level to Rarity Tier relationship of enspelled items. Rare only goes up 3rd level spells, so you'd need a Very rare to access 4th/5th level spells.
Also... get Rod of Pact keeper (even an uncommon one is good enough) to let you recharge an pact slot per long rest.
Thank you so much for walking me through all of this. It really helps me feel more confident in my choices. In general then, how would you suggest I manage my spells? Using charm person or something out of combat as needed is one thing, but for combat what would be the go if any before I jump to SoM?
Would I be Hexing people or summoning my demon? Stack SoM and Mirror Image?
I think the issue here is that you're trying to do way too much through the spells. Warlock is a bit tricky in that you really need to think about your spells carefully, since the opportunity cost is very high, but can refresh on a short rest. Its why Invocations exist as mostly At-Will spells, to make cheaper utility spells more accessible. This kind of gives you two choices on spell choice.... you can either have a spell combo you just do every combat, OR long tailed spells you can maintain for most (if not all) of the encounter. Also look into the circle cast rules. Prolong is really good feature, as it can extend many of your 1 minute spells to 1 hour with one other caster giving up a 1st level spell slot.
If you're doing the combo thing, start looking at magic items. At this level you should be good to have a rare magic magic item. So talk to your DM about enspelled weapons or enspelled armor and offload one of your most commonly used spells to that. Since you have 3-6 charges per day to work with, which one kind of depends on your strategy. If you're ok with using 2 pacts slots for a spell combo every combat, you can load the enspelled item with a contingency spell.... like shield. If you want to keep Pact slots more available, then put your main concentration spell in the enspelled item, and make it your primary source of that spell*.
*Just be mindful of the Spell level to Rarity Tier relationship of enspelled items. Rare only goes up 3rd level spells, so you'd need a Very rare to access 4th/5th level spells.
Also... get Rod of Pact keeper (even an uncommon one is good enough) to let you recharge an pact slot per long rest.
Thank you so much for walking me through all of this. It really helps me feel more confident in my choices. In general then, how would you suggest I manage my spells? Using charm person or something out of combat as needed is one thing, but for combat what would be the go if any before I jump to SoM?
Would I be Hexing people or summoning my demon? Stack SoM and Mirror Image?
I think the issue here is that you're trying to do way too much through the spells. Warlock is a bit tricky in that you really need to think about your spells carefully, since the opportunity cost is very high, but can refresh on a short rest. Its why Invocations exist as mostly At-Will spells, to make cheaper utility spells more accessible. This kind of gives you two choices on spell choice.... you can either have a spell combo you just do every combat, OR long tailed spells you can maintain for most (if not all) of the encounter. Also look into the circle cast rules. Prolong is really good feature, as it can extend many of your 1 minute spells to 1 hour with one other caster giving up a 1st level spell slot.
If you're doing the combo thing, start looking at magic items. At this level you should be good to have a rare magic magic item. So talk to your DM about enspelled weapons or enspelled armor and offload one of your most commonly used spells to that. Since you have 3-6 charges per day to work with, which one kind of depends on your strategy. If you're ok with using 2 pacts slots for a spell combo every combat, you can load the enspelled item with a contingency spell.... like shield. If you want to keep Pact slots more available, then put your main concentration spell in the enspelled item, and make it your primary source of that spell*.
*Just be mindful of the Spell level to Rarity Tier relationship of enspelled items. Rare only goes up 3rd level spells, so you'd need a Very rare to access 4th/5th level spells.
Also... get Rod of Pact keeper (even an uncommon one is good enough) to let you recharge an pact slot per long rest.
I think you make a very good point here about my mindset. I've got to pick and choose which spell I'm willing to waste a pact slot in combat to hold me over and not be wasting the rest to combo unnecessarily. Out of combat is more situational and more likely to get that short rest to get it back.
I was debating between my hex blade or a wild magic sorcerer and did some testing in encounters. Both characters won the encounter on their own (four wights, a guard drake, and a pirate captain), but I saw the main difference between casters being the fact my sorcerer could go off on spells as much as they wanted and even had more "survivability" thanks to wall of stone, mage armor, shield spell and silvery barbs, but he has half the Hp of my warlock, so if I hadn't had control over the encounter he could have easily been overwhelmed.
I didn't go easy on myself, just that I set up the encounter so both sides had an even playing field rather than being heavily favored to the enemy.
Plus if I'm up against an enemy where my AC just doesn't matter which in tier 3/4 I think a base 16 or 17 armor class will, that lack of HP will matter, even with disadvantage from SOM.
My warlock has over 100 hp at level 10 (17 con and tough origin) and I'll be looking for ways to up his AC as we go. That's the most HP in the party btw.
Truth is the rest of the party hasn't played a lot of DND, definitely never at tier 3 play, so with a druid/monk multi class (still not sure his subclasses), Life Cleric with ONLY healing spells, a Battlemaster fighter not focused on strength and using a greataxe (she only has a plus 6 to hit and plus 2 to damage), and another warlock who just isn't familiar with the premade build given to her. So I think playing a tanker build with more consistent damage and abilities makes way more sense.
When it comes to magic items check with the DM. I can say after my first campaign using them I as a DM will be much more stingy on enspelled items. A shield enspelled with shield is effectively a +5 shield in a lot of campaigns 6 free shields will cover all you need if you are not having a lot of combat encounters. While I a willing to give a warlock a rod of the pact keeper, I am less willing to give full casters their equivalent. When you can only cast 2 spells the spell landing is a bit more important than with a wizard who will have like 15 to cast. Every DM is going to have their quirks due to their past experiences on how they want to handle magic items.
Life drinker in 2024 is not a huge damage boost, its 1d6 once per turn. Personally I put in on the waste of a invocation list. If all you care about is damage and you are pact of the blade I guess sure, take it. But I think you will regret not taking something more fun as 1d6 just is not enough damage for a invocation imo.
I thought Lifedrinker was great for PotBlade locks in the front line. Once per turn you do 1d6, yeah agreed that's ho hum - but in ADDITION as a free action you can spend one of your hit dice (+ con) and heal. So it does not give you the +2 tough feat bonus but asides from that it effectively gives you (10th level with 16 con) 10d8 + 30 extra hp for a battle if it goes for 10 rounds. As a free action - no need to use a BA healing spell, or a magic action healing spell, or a BA potion etc . . . a free action for 1d8+3 hp every round and no need of a short rest to spend em. In some encounters that can be the difference maker right there.
I'm looking at PotBlabe for our next campaign and am starting with 1 lvl in Fighter to get heavy armour proficiency and fighting styles. Delays everything by 1 level agreed but I'm looking at sword and board for the AC in the front line. My build (and I agree with the sentiments above on designing a build not maximising some aspect) is my warlock will be a fighter and the warlock abilities are all about boosting the fighter styles. Spell slots for the eldritch smite effect, invocations for Jump spell etc ... not everyones cup of tea tho.
Speaking of Eldritch smite, when is it worth picking up? My level 10 warlock has it now, but I'm thinking about swapping it out for something like mask of many faces for role-play as I only have the two pact slots (three at next level), which I'd rather save for other things ti prioritize in combat. Should I consider taking it at level 15, since level 12 is reserved for the invocation that gives me three attacks. Or am I overthinking and should just keep it and take one of those later on?
Big damage is always good, especially on a elven accuracy crit, but idk if I only have the one slot I'd prioritize SOM or Summon Greater demon or whatever spell to set up my damage for the fight more than one big hit.
Speaking of Eldritch smite, when is it worth picking up?
As you need to burn a spell slot to use it, once two slots using it twice, the answer is when you have one (or two) slots that are available. Assuming you have played with the warlock over a few levels, you are the only one to decide that answer. If you are always out of slots, then it is probably a wasted invocation. If before your long rests you always have slots, then take it.
It's a magic item that is exclusive to Warlocks. The relevance here is that it lets you regain one spell slot as an action, instead of having to take a whole short rest, once per day. (It also adds a bonus to Warlock spell attacks and spell save DCs.)
You can find it in both versions of the Dungeon Master's Guide.
I don't think you ever need eldritch smite. E-smite produces 6d8 of additional damage (27 points) and the prone condition. On a crit you can get 54 points. With 3 attacks per turn, Hex (not a good spell for a 5th level slot) does 10.5 damage per turn (with a discount for when you miss). That means you are likely meeting 27 points of damage in 4 or so turns with Hex. Depending on how well your concentration is protected Hex might exceed Esmite but its not trivial on a melee build that takes damage and makes concentration checks. If we compare E-smite to any AOE effect it really fails badly. Fiend lock dropping a Fireball should easily exceed the damage from an E-Smite. Now this is spread out among multiple targets instead of single target. A good AOE will put 100+ damage on the board. We could also compare E-Smite to one of the summons. Here you get into Math more like Hex. They usually last an hour and if you can keep them up they can exceed E-smite in damage while providing other benefits. One of the bigger problems with ESmite is overkill. Lets say you do roll a crit and lay down 54 points of damage. If the enemy only has 10 points left while you rolled 27 or 54 points you only really got 10 points out of it. You have so few slots that wasting them is a big issue. So to answer the question, I would recommend pushing it back to 15th level or so. It really depends on how much you enjoy playing with it. If you love it than have fun and take it as soon as you can.
I don't think you ever need eldritch smite. E-smite produces 6d8 of additional damage (27 points) and the prone condition. On a crit you can get 54 points. With 3 attacks per turn, Hex (not a good spell for a 5th level slot) does 10.5 damage per turn (with a discount for when you miss). That means you are likely meeting 27 points of damage in 4 or so turns with Hex. Depending on how well your concentration is protected Hex might exceed Esmite but its not trivial on a melee build that takes damage and makes concentration checks. If we compare E-smite to any AOE effect it really fails badly. Fiend lock dropping a Fireball should easily exceed the damage from an E-Smite. Now this is spread out among multiple targets instead of single target. A good AOE will put 100+ damage on the board. We could also compare E-Smite to one of the summons. Here you get into Math more like Hex. They usually last an hour and if you can keep them up they can exceed E-smite in damage while providing other benefits. One of the bigger problems with ESmite is overkill. Lets say you do roll a crit and lay down 54 points of damage. If the enemy only has 10 points left while you rolled 27 or 54 points you only really got 10 points out of it. You have so few slots that wasting them is a big issue. So to answer the question, I would recommend pushing it back to 15th level or so. It really depends on how much you enjoy playing with it. If you love it than have fun and take it as soon as you can.
But I mean that’s great with hex until you really need to kill something fast. Hex does out perform after a while but almost nothing spikes as much as eldritch smite hexblades curse and thirsting blade
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And you run, and you run
To catch up with the sun, but it’s sinking
And racingaround
To come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way
But you’re older
Shorter of Breath
And one day closer to death
currently in love with redesigning subclasses send me a message and I will try
I mean my main concentration will be on Shadow of Moil most of the time, so I guess pushing it to 15th level makes more sense when I have an extra pact slot to waste when it counts
RAW, Hex targets any creature. It doesn’t specify other creature. Which means you are technically a valid target of your own Hex. So rest casting this is perfectly valid RAW. Almost certainly not RAI but technically RAW. And since WOTC places an outsized amount of weight in their balancing calculations on Eldritch Blast, warlocks not using EB deserve all the help they can get.
RAW, Hex targets any creature. It doesn’t specify other creature. Which means you are technically a valid target of your own Hex. So rest casting this is perfectly valid RAW. Almost certainly not RAI but technically RAW.
I have to say, if a warlock wants to hex themselves, I would allow it.
It will not achieve what you want it to achieve, but it's legal.
RAW, Hex targets any creature. It doesn’t specify other creature. Which means you are technically a valid target of your own Hex. So rest casting this is perfectly valid RAW. Almost certainly not RAI but technically RAW. And since WOTC places an outsized amount of weight in their balancing calculations on Eldritch Blast, warlocks not using EB deserve all the help they can get.
I suppose, though then you can never transfer it to someone else without casting it again.
RAW, Hex targets any creature. It doesn’t specify other creature. Which means you are technically a valid target of your own Hex. So rest casting this is perfectly valid RAW. Almost certainly not RAI but technically RAW. And since WOTC places an outsized amount of weight in their balancing calculations on Eldritch Blast, warlocks not using EB deserve all the help they can get.
I suppose, though then you can never transfer it to someone else without casting it again.
There's probably a way to be reduced to 0 HP without breaking concentration.
RAW, Hex targets any creature. It doesn’t specify other creature. Which means you are technically a valid target of your own Hex. So rest casting this is perfectly valid RAW. Almost certainly not RAI but technically RAW. And since WOTC places an outsized amount of weight in their balancing calculations on Eldritch Blast, warlocks not using EB deserve all the help they can get.
I suppose, though then you can never transfer it to someone else without casting it again.
There's probably a way to be reduced to 0 HP without breaking concentration.
The only thing I could immediately think of that allows you to drop to 0 HP without being knocked Unconscious was a feature from the 2014 Zealot Barbarian, but it only applied while you were Raging (so you couldn't be concentrating anyway). But there may well be something else out there.
RAW, Hex targets any creature. It doesn’t specify other creature. Which means you are technically a valid target of your own Hex. So rest casting this is perfectly valid RAW. Almost certainly not RAI but technically RAW. And since WOTC places an outsized amount of weight in their balancing calculations on Eldritch Blast, warlocks not using EB deserve all the help they can get.
I suppose, though then you can never transfer it to someone else without casting it again.
There's probably a way to be reduced to 0 HP without breaking concentration.
The only thing I could immediately think of that allows you to drop to 0 HP without being knocked Unconscious was a feature from the 2014 Zealot Barbarian, but it only applied while you were Raging (so you couldn't be concentrating anyway). But there may well be something else out there.
Don’t know what level the Barb feature is but maybe genie locks limited wish could maintain concentration? Sorry bit of topic but \_>_<_/
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
And you run, and you run
To catch up with the sun, but it’s sinking
And racingaround
To come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way
But you’re older
Shorter of Breath
And one day closer to death
currently in love with redesigning subclasses send me a message and I will try
Thanks. Yeah for an invocation slot that isn’t great
And you run, and you run
To catch up with the sun, but it’s sinking
And racing around
To come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way
But you’re older
Shorter of Breath
And one day closer to death
currently in love with redesigning subclasses send me a message and I will try
I think you make a very good point here about my mindset. I've got to pick and choose which spell I'm willing to waste a pact slot in combat to hold me over and not be wasting the rest to combo unnecessarily. Out of combat is more situational and more likely to get that short rest to get it back.
I was debating between my hex blade or a wild magic sorcerer and did some testing in encounters. Both characters won the encounter on their own (four wights, a guard drake, and a pirate captain), but I saw the main difference between casters being the fact my sorcerer could go off on spells as much as they wanted and even had more "survivability" thanks to wall of stone, mage armor, shield spell and silvery barbs, but he has half the Hp of my warlock, so if I hadn't had control over the encounter he could have easily been overwhelmed.
I didn't go easy on myself, just that I set up the encounter so both sides had an even playing field rather than being heavily favored to the enemy.
Plus if I'm up against an enemy where my AC just doesn't matter which in tier 3/4 I think a base 16 or 17 armor class will, that lack of HP will matter, even with disadvantage from SOM.
My warlock has over 100 hp at level 10 (17 con and tough origin) and I'll be looking for ways to up his AC as we go. That's the most HP in the party btw.
Truth is the rest of the party hasn't played a lot of DND, definitely never at tier 3 play, so with a druid/monk multi class (still not sure his subclasses), Life Cleric with ONLY healing spells, a Battlemaster fighter not focused on strength and using a greataxe (she only has a plus 6 to hit and plus 2 to damage), and another warlock who just isn't familiar with the premade build given to her. So I think playing a tanker build with more consistent damage and abilities makes way more sense.
When it comes to magic items check with the DM. I can say after my first campaign using them I as a DM will be much more stingy on enspelled items. A shield enspelled with shield is effectively a +5 shield in a lot of campaigns 6 free shields will cover all you need if you are not having a lot of combat encounters. While I a willing to give a warlock a rod of the pact keeper, I am less willing to give full casters their equivalent. When you can only cast 2 spells the spell landing is a bit more important than with a wizard who will have like 15 to cast. Every DM is going to have their quirks due to their past experiences on how they want to handle magic items.
I thought Lifedrinker was great for PotBlade locks in the front line. Once per turn you do 1d6, yeah agreed that's ho hum - but in ADDITION as a free action you can spend one of your hit dice (+ con) and heal. So it does not give you the +2 tough feat bonus but asides from that it effectively gives you (10th level with 16 con) 10d8 + 30 extra hp for a battle if it goes for 10 rounds. As a free action - no need to use a BA healing spell, or a magic action healing spell, or a BA potion etc . . . a free action for 1d8+3 hp every round and no need of a short rest to spend em. In some encounters that can be the difference maker right there.
Life's hard - get a helmet!
I'm looking at PotBlabe for our next campaign and am starting with 1 lvl in Fighter to get heavy armour proficiency and fighting styles. Delays everything by 1 level agreed but I'm looking at sword and board for the AC in the front line. My build (and I agree with the sentiments above on designing a build not maximising some aspect) is my warlock will be a fighter and the warlock abilities are all about boosting the fighter styles. Spell slots for the eldritch smite effect, invocations for Jump spell etc ... not everyones cup of tea tho.
Life's hard - get a helmet!
Speaking of Eldritch smite, when is it worth picking up? My level 10 warlock has it now, but I'm thinking about swapping it out for something like mask of many faces for role-play as I only have the two pact slots (three at next level), which I'd rather save for other things ti prioritize in combat. Should I consider taking it at level 15, since level 12 is reserved for the invocation that gives me three attacks. Or am I overthinking and should just keep it and take one of those later on?
Big damage is always good, especially on a elven accuracy crit, but idk if I only have the one slot I'd prioritize SOM or Summon Greater demon or whatever spell to set up my damage for the fight more than one big hit.
What is "a rod of the pact keeper?"
What is a potlock?
As you need to burn a spell slot to use it, once two slots using it twice, the answer is when you have one (or two) slots that are available. Assuming you have played with the warlock over a few levels, you are the only one to decide that answer. If you are always out of slots, then it is probably a wasted invocation. If before your long rests you always have slots, then take it.
It's a magic item that is exclusive to Warlocks. The relevance here is that it lets you regain one spell slot as an action, instead of having to take a whole short rest, once per day. (It also adds a bonus to Warlock spell attacks and spell save DCs.)
You can find it in both versions of the Dungeon Master's Guide.
pronouns: he/she/they
I don't think you ever need eldritch smite. E-smite produces 6d8 of additional damage (27 points) and the prone condition. On a crit you can get 54 points. With 3 attacks per turn, Hex (not a good spell for a 5th level slot) does 10.5 damage per turn (with a discount for when you miss). That means you are likely meeting 27 points of damage in 4 or so turns with Hex. Depending on how well your concentration is protected Hex might exceed Esmite but its not trivial on a melee build that takes damage and makes concentration checks.
If we compare E-smite to any AOE effect it really fails badly. Fiend lock dropping a Fireball should easily exceed the damage from an E-Smite. Now this is spread out among multiple targets instead of single target. A good AOE will put 100+ damage on the board.
We could also compare E-Smite to one of the summons. Here you get into Math more like Hex. They usually last an hour and if you can keep them up they can exceed E-smite in damage while providing other benefits.
One of the bigger problems with ESmite is overkill. Lets say you do roll a crit and lay down 54 points of damage. If the enemy only has 10 points left while you rolled 27 or 54 points you only really got 10 points out of it. You have so few slots that wasting them is a big issue.
So to answer the question, I would recommend pushing it back to 15th level or so. It really depends on how much you enjoy playing with it. If you love it than have fun and take it as soon as you can.
But I mean that’s great with hex until you really need to kill something fast. Hex does out perform after a while but almost nothing spikes as much as eldritch smite hexblades curse and thirsting blade
And you run, and you run
To catch up with the sun, but it’s sinking
And racing around
To come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way
But you’re older
Shorter of Breath
And one day closer to death
currently in love with redesigning subclasses send me a message and I will try
I mean my main concentration will be on Shadow of Moil most of the time, so I guess pushing it to 15th level makes more sense when I have an extra pact slot to waste when it counts
RAW, Hex targets any creature. It doesn’t specify other creature. Which means you are technically a valid target of your own Hex. So rest casting this is perfectly valid RAW. Almost certainly not RAI but technically RAW. And since WOTC places an outsized amount of weight in their balancing calculations on Eldritch Blast, warlocks not using EB deserve all the help they can get.
I have to say, if a warlock wants to hex themselves, I would allow it.
It will not achieve what you want it to achieve, but it's legal.
I suppose, though then you can never transfer it to someone else without casting it again.
pronouns: he/she/they
There's probably a way to be reduced to 0 HP without breaking concentration.
The only thing I could immediately think of that allows you to drop to 0 HP without being knocked Unconscious was a feature from the 2014 Zealot Barbarian, but it only applied while you were Raging (so you couldn't be concentrating anyway). But there may well be something else out there.
pronouns: he/she/they
Don’t know what level the Barb feature is but maybe genie locks limited wish could maintain concentration? Sorry bit of topic but \_>_<_/
And you run, and you run
To catch up with the sun, but it’s sinking
And racing around
To come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way
But you’re older
Shorter of Breath
And one day closer to death
currently in love with redesigning subclasses send me a message and I will try
I’m full lv 20 warlock and I got silver dragon spirit magic and i am wise warlock to the silver knight
Merlin the wise