Hmmm...I don't think "most of the time your patron is trying to destroy the world." A demon is nothing without humans to tempt, an archfey is more concerned with pranks and power, and a slumbering Elder God is, well, slumbering.
Yeah...it's like saying "bards are underpowered because most of the time they have to be trying to seduce everything." It's a stereotype that shouldn't even be true for 99% of characters.
I think they were mostly referring to the fact that if a patron is so all powerful, you should get more spell slots. Thinking about it that way though, patrons seem like stingy land lords, renting out their power like that.
But its hard to imagine someone even thinking about saying bards are under powered, even if it was a joke example. Even their abilities say their jacks of all trades.
Patrons don't grant powers. That's why warlock is an arcane class and not a divine class. Warlocks learn to directly manipulate the weave of magic. The difference was described in an interview as divine magic uses a lens (the divine power) and arcane magic does not. It's just fluff with no real impact, however.
Warlocks are pretty awesome if a person is focusing on that at-will aspects of the class instead of trying to find ways to restrict pact magic. ;)
Forget hex. The concentration requirement means a person either loses it, gives it up, or gives up other concentration options in maintaining hex when there are other ways to spend concentration. Using hex means building to use hex. It's not that hex is not good. It just has too much competition for concentration, including ritual casting if a person wants to use that feature.
All a person needs is eldritch blast and agonizing blast. That give better at-will damage than other spell casters. Avoid those invocations that require a spell slot and can only be cast once per day for the most part. Some of those can be useful but they are situational and restricted by one of the class mechanics. All those spell-like ability invocations at-will are great. Misty visions is an excellent place to start. Even if there is never a single short rest in the entire day the damage from agonizingblast is solid and those SLA's give utility. The pact magic will still be there at least once for the big bad.
Arcanum is in addition to pact magic. That gives high level warlocks quite a few options between cantrips, invocations, pact magic, and arcanum. It's not like that one aspect (pact magic) is the main benefit of the class.
Every class can use a short rest. That's how they spend hit dice for healing, if nothing else. There's no such thing as that short rest being a waste of time because it's normally handwaved away. It's not like DM's make the players sit there for an hour to emulate the short rest.
Tome pact plays more like a wizard, but with more cantrips that can be taken from any class, and the ritual casting is also any class without level restriction (someone stated differently earlier).
Patrons don't grant powers. That's why warlock is an arcane class and not a divine class. Warlocks learn to directly manipulate the weave of magic. The difference was described in an interview as divine magic uses a lens (the divine power) and arcane magic does not. It's just fluff with no real impact, however.
Warlocks are pretty awesome if a person is focusing on that at-will aspects of the class instead of trying to find ways to restrict pact magic. ;)
Forget hex. The concentration requirement means a person either loses it, gives it up, or gives up other concentration options in maintaining hex when there are other ways to spend concentration. Using hex means building to use hex. It's not that hex is not good. It just has too much competition for concentration, including ritual casting if a person wants to use that feature.
All a person needs is eldritch blast and agonizing blast. That give better at-will damage than other spell casters. Avoid those invocations that require a spell slot and can only be cast once per day for the most part. Some of those can be useful but they are situational and restricted by one of the class mechanics. All those spell-like ability invocations at-will are great. Misty visions is an excellent place to start. Even if there is never a single short rest in the entire day the damage from agonizingblast is solid and those SLA's give utility. The pact magic will still be there at least once for the big bad.
Arcanum is in addition to pact magic. That gives high level warlocks quite a few options between cantrips, invocations, pact magic, and arcanum. It's not like that one aspect (pact magic) is the main benefit of the class.
Every class can use a short rest. That's how they spend hit dice for healing, if nothing else. There's no such thing as that short rest being a waste of time because it's normally handwaved away. It's not like DM's make the players sit there for an hour to emulate the short rest.
Tome pact plays more like a wizard, but with more cantrips that can be taken from any class, and the ritual casting is also any class without level restriction (someone stated differently earlier).
While I don't agree with you 100%, thank you for pointing out that Patrons do not grant Warlocks their powers. So many people get this wrong- shoot even Matthew Mercer on Critical Role get's this wrong.
The At-Will abilities are fabulous and grant a fair amount of utility but are also somewhat situational. I still think Pact Magic is too restrictive however given the propensity of parties to forget short rests. I don't think the balance is far off- I think one additional pact slot at all levels would be about right given that most parties only do 1 short rest between long rests but Warlock was balanced around 2 short rests per long rest. One additional slot closes the gap significantly.
Also I favor homebrew where any invocation granting use of a new spell also grants a once a day use of the spell at base level. Those 2 changes nicely close the gap between Warlock and the other full casters.
I'll admit I'm wrong after reading the warlock pact magic description, but it does say, "Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells.", so isn't it both? At least a little of the magic is granted to the character, I just don't know if its magic that allows them to be able to learn the magic quickly compared to wizards and their devout study, or they are giving them the spell slots.
*Edit* I do know wizards can have 44 known spells by level 20, without studying, but warlocks still get 15 known without being overly mentioned for studying.
I'll admit I'm wrong after reading the warlock pact magic description, but it does say, "Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells.", so isn't it both? At least a little of the magic is granted to the character, I just don't know if its magic that allows them to be able to learn the magic quickly compared to wizards and their devout study, or they are giving them the spell slots.
*Edit* I do know wizards can have 44 known spells by level 20, without studying, but warlocks still get 15 known without being overly mentioned for studying.
Technically this isn't spelled (no pun intended) out explicitly but I tend to think that Pact Spell Slots and Invocations represent the arcane secrets of the Universe that has been unlocked by the Warlock through study and being mentored by the Patron but are not being granted/given directly by the patron. Maybe not with the spell slots but DEFINITELY with the invocations as those are explicit from the flavor text
"In your study of occult lore, you have unearthed eldritch invocations, fragments of forbidden knowledge that imbue you with an abiding magical ability."
The Patron specific abilities are the ones I feel like are truly powers granted or on loan from the patron such as the Fey Presence and Hurl Through Hell abilities. Those thematically absolutely fit as powers bestowed by the specific patron.
I'll admit I'm wrong after reading the warlock pact magic description, but it does say, "Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells.", so isn't it both? At least a little of the magic is granted to the character, I just don't know if its magic that allows them to be able to learn the magic quickly compared to wizards and their devout study, or they are giving them the spell slots.
*Edit* I do know wizards can have 44 known spells by level 20, without studying, but warlocks still get 15 known without being overly mentioned for studying.
Warlock is just an arcane caster with more of a divine caster feel as far as the patron goes. Something the patron does seems to be involved, but that seems largely left up to the DM anyway.
As for the spells known, those 15 are split among 5 spell levels while the 44 in the book are split among 9 levels, and it's only 25 prepped (plus 2 signature spells) still. Both average 3 spells at each level. The wizard's advantage is the number of spells prepped at higher levels compared to arcanum. Versatility in high level spells is a strong advantage for wizards.
Warlocks are also less squishy than other arcane casters (save the bard) and have better access to armor and weapons early on. Their ability to be diverse in their abilities helps a lot. The DM I work with has been fair in dealing out short rests, and pretty good with distribution of magic items to make me feel useful, plus I've been able to move invocations that closely match ritual spells into my Grimoire. This means I can keep things like Eyes of the Runekeeper and cast it similarly to Comprehend Languages, even as I change out invocations. Ultimately, the DM's ability to balance out the characters in the story and make each feel fulfilled is critical to the game.
I tend to view Pact magic as learning Manipulation of the weave in exchange for a given bit of learning / Research. The patron doesn't "grant" so much as he/she/it teaches as a part of the bargain. The warlock doesn't lose the ability learnt if they multiclass or if they (heaven/hell forefend) dump the patron. That doesn't mean there aren't consequences, but that's no different than the paladin breaking their oath or the cleric turning back on their god. They don't necessarily lose everything they have learned.
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May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
"The past is a tapestry, each thread a whisper of what was—pull one, and the whole unravels. With Hope's End, nothing remains hidden; your dreams, your fears, they are but tributes to the Raven Queen, guardian of all that was."
"Cut me down, and I'll rise again—stronger, faster, with Whackus Bonkus at my side. When the darkness falls, you'll never see the storm that bears my name."
Okay, so here's my two cents on a point that keeps getting brought up: Short rests.
Why do people talk like Warlocks are the only ones who would want them? Fighters get their second wind and action surge back on a short rest. Monks regain their ki points on a short rest. Druids regain their wildshape uses on a short rest. Clerics and Paladins regain their channel divinity on a short rest. If you, the warlock,are the only one asking for a short rest, I imagine your party is playing sub-optimally.
Okay, so here's my two cents on a point that keeps getting brought up: Short rests.
Why do people talk like Warlocks are the only ones who would want them? Fighters get their second wind and action surge back on a short rest. Monks regain their ki points on a short rest. Druids regain their wildshape uses on a short rest. Clerics and Paladins regain their channel divinity on a short rest. If you, the warlock,are the only one asking for a short rest, I imagine your party is playing sub-optimally.
Other classes typically depend on a mix of short and long rest abilities so while they will benefit from a short rest, they will benefit more from a long rest. The problem is less about parties going all day with no rest and more about parties taking a long rest every fight or two. While this is sometimes because the party is overly cautious, usually it's because it doesn't make narrative sense to do more than that in a day unless you're in a dungeon or other target rich environment. You could use different rules for rest duration, but then you run into problems if your story goes back and forth between encounter rates.
Okay, so here's my two cents on a point that keeps getting brought up: Short rests.
Why do people talk like Warlocks are the only ones who would want them? Fighters get their second wind and action surge back on a short rest. Monks regain their ki points on a short rest. Druids regain their wildshape uses on a short rest. Clerics and Paladins regain their channel divinity on a short rest. If you, the warlock,are the only one asking for a short rest, I imagine your party is playing sub-optimally.
Other classes typically depend on a mix of short and long rest abilities so while they will benefit from a short rest, they will benefit more from a long rest. The problem is less about parties going all day with no rest and more about parties taking a long rest every fight or two. While this is sometimes because the party is overly cautious, usually it's because it doesn't make narrative sense to do more than that in a day unless you're in a dungeon or other target rich environment. You could use different rules for rest duration, but then you run into problems if your story goes back and forth between encounter rates.
Take the inspiring leader or healer feat on the warlock. That encourages more players to take more shorts rests to abuse those feats.
It's also easier to justify a short rest versus a long rest because short rests are less likely to be interrupted or risk bad consequences during time spent or running out the clock scenarios. A lot of that depends on what the DM decides is happening in the background during the time the players are resting.
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Hmmm...I don't think "most of the time your patron is trying to destroy the world." A demon is nothing without humans to tempt, an archfey is more concerned with pranks and power, and a slumbering Elder God is, well, slumbering.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Not to mention Celestials are also patron options.
Yeah...it's like saying "bards are underpowered because most of the time they have to be trying to seduce everything." It's a stereotype that shouldn't even be true for 99% of characters.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
I think they were mostly referring to the fact that if a patron is so all powerful, you should get more spell slots. Thinking about it that way though, patrons seem like stingy land lords, renting out their power like that.
But its hard to imagine someone even thinking about saying bards are under powered, even if it was a joke example. Even their abilities say their jacks of all trades.
Also known as CrafterB and DankMemer.
Here, have some homebrew classes! Subclasses to? Why not races. Feats, feats as well. I have a lot of magic items. Lastly I got monsters, fun, fun times.
Patrons don't grant powers. That's why warlock is an arcane class and not a divine class. Warlocks learn to directly manipulate the weave of magic. The difference was described in an interview as divine magic uses a lens (the divine power) and arcane magic does not. It's just fluff with no real impact, however.
Warlocks are pretty awesome if a person is focusing on that at-will aspects of the class instead of trying to find ways to restrict pact magic. ;)
Forget hex. The concentration requirement means a person either loses it, gives it up, or gives up other concentration options in maintaining hex when there are other ways to spend concentration. Using hex means building to use hex. It's not that hex is not good. It just has too much competition for concentration, including ritual casting if a person wants to use that feature.
All a person needs is eldritch blast and agonizing blast. That give better at-will damage than other spell casters. Avoid those invocations that require a spell slot and can only be cast once per day for the most part. Some of those can be useful but they are situational and restricted by one of the class mechanics. All those spell-like ability invocations at-will are great. Misty visions is an excellent place to start. Even if there is never a single short rest in the entire day the damage from agonizing blast is solid and those SLA's give utility. The pact magic will still be there at least once for the big bad.
Arcanum is in addition to pact magic. That gives high level warlocks quite a few options between cantrips, invocations, pact magic, and arcanum. It's not like that one aspect (pact magic) is the main benefit of the class.
Every class can use a short rest. That's how they spend hit dice for healing, if nothing else. There's no such thing as that short rest being a waste of time because it's normally handwaved away. It's not like DM's make the players sit there for an hour to emulate the short rest.
Tome pact plays more like a wizard, but with more cantrips that can be taken from any class, and the ritual casting is also any class without level restriction (someone stated differently earlier).
While I don't agree with you 100%, thank you for pointing out that Patrons do not grant Warlocks their powers. So many people get this wrong- shoot even Matthew Mercer on Critical Role get's this wrong.
The At-Will abilities are fabulous and grant a fair amount of utility but are also somewhat situational. I still think Pact Magic is too restrictive however given the propensity of parties to forget short rests. I don't think the balance is far off- I think one additional pact slot at all levels would be about right given that most parties only do 1 short rest between long rests but Warlock was balanced around 2 short rests per long rest. One additional slot closes the gap significantly.
Also I favor homebrew where any invocation granting use of a new spell also grants a once a day use of the spell at base level. Those 2 changes nicely close the gap between Warlock and the other full casters.
I'll admit I'm wrong after reading the warlock pact magic description, but it does say, "Your arcane research and the magic bestowed on you by your patron have given you facility with spells.", so isn't it both? At least a little of the magic is granted to the character, I just don't know if its magic that allows them to be able to learn the magic quickly compared to wizards and their devout study, or they are giving them the spell slots.
*Edit* I do know wizards can have 44 known spells by level 20, without studying, but warlocks still get 15 known without being overly mentioned for studying.
Also known as CrafterB and DankMemer.
Here, have some homebrew classes! Subclasses to? Why not races. Feats, feats as well. I have a lot of magic items. Lastly I got monsters, fun, fun times.
Technically this isn't spelled (no pun intended) out explicitly but I tend to think that Pact Spell Slots and Invocations represent the arcane secrets of the Universe that has been unlocked by the Warlock through study and being mentored by the Patron but are not being granted/given directly by the patron. Maybe not with the spell slots but DEFINITELY with the invocations as those are explicit from the flavor text
"In your study of occult lore, you have unearthed eldritch invocations, fragments of forbidden knowledge that imbue you with an abiding magical ability."
The Patron specific abilities are the ones I feel like are truly powers granted or on loan from the patron such as the Fey Presence and Hurl Through Hell abilities. Those thematically absolutely fit as powers bestowed by the specific patron.
Warlock is just an arcane caster with more of a divine caster feel as far as the patron goes. Something the patron does seems to be involved, but that seems largely left up to the DM anyway.
As for the spells known, those 15 are split among 5 spell levels while the 44 in the book are split among 9 levels, and it's only 25 prepped (plus 2 signature spells) still. Both average 3 spells at each level. The wizard's advantage is the number of spells prepped at higher levels compared to arcanum. Versatility in high level spells is a strong advantage for wizards.
Warlocks are also less squishy than other arcane casters (save the bard) and have better access to armor and weapons early on. Their ability to be diverse in their abilities helps a lot. The DM I work with has been fair in dealing out short rests, and pretty good with distribution of magic items to make me feel useful, plus I've been able to move invocations that closely match ritual spells into my Grimoire. This means I can keep things like Eyes of the Runekeeper and cast it similarly to Comprehend Languages, even as I change out invocations. Ultimately, the DM's ability to balance out the characters in the story and make each feel fulfilled is critical to the game.
I tend to view Pact magic as learning Manipulation of the weave in exchange for a given bit of learning / Research. The patron doesn't "grant" so much as he/she/it teaches as a part of the bargain. The warlock doesn't lose the ability learnt if they multiclass or if they (heaven/hell forefend) dump the patron. That doesn't mean there aren't consequences, but that's no different than the paladin breaking their oath or the cleric turning back on their god. They don't necessarily lose everything they have learned.
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
I need build info on that warlock...
"The past is a tapestry, each thread a whisper of what was—pull one, and the whole unravels. With Hope's End, nothing remains hidden; your dreams, your fears, they are but tributes to the Raven Queen, guardian of all that was."
"Cut me down, and I'll rise again—stronger, faster, with Whackus Bonkus at my side. When the darkness falls, you'll never see the storm that bears my name."
Which one?
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
Okay, so here's my two cents on a point that keeps getting brought up: Short rests.
Why do people talk like Warlocks are the only ones who would want them? Fighters get their second wind and action surge back on a short rest. Monks regain their ki points on a short rest. Druids regain their wildshape uses on a short rest. Clerics and Paladins regain their channel divinity on a short rest. If you, the warlock,are the only one asking for a short rest, I imagine your party is playing sub-optimally.
Other classes typically depend on a mix of short and long rest abilities so while they will benefit from a short rest, they will benefit more from a long rest. The problem is less about parties going all day with no rest and more about parties taking a long rest every fight or two. While this is sometimes because the party is overly cautious, usually it's because it doesn't make narrative sense to do more than that in a day unless you're in a dungeon or other target rich environment. You could use different rules for rest duration, but then you run into problems if your story goes back and forth between encounter rates.
Take the inspiring leader or healer feat on the warlock. That encourages more players to take more shorts rests to abuse those feats.
It's also easier to justify a short rest versus a long rest because short rests are less likely to be interrupted or risk bad consequences during time spent or running out the clock scenarios. A lot of that depends on what the DM decides is happening in the background during the time the players are resting.